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After being reprimanded and threatened with disciplinary action for removing my tie at work today, I wonder what the general consensus is regarding how people see this...
I'm a teacher in an international school. I frequently take it off when it's too hot or when I'm doing a lab-based practical, then forget to put it back on. I don't consider it a high priority item and when I'm dashing around it does sometimes just get overlooked.
Does a tie matter? If so, why? I'm struggling to come up with reasons, especially for this sort of work, so interested if anyone thinks ties have any sort of positive impact. Never really pondered it in that much detail until I worked for my current boss, who seems to think it's the be all and end all! I should add that I always dress smartly for work in proper shoes, smart trousers and a formal shirt, so it's not like I'm turning up in shorts and flip flops.
I'm a teacher in an international school. I frequently take it off when it's too hot or when I'm doing a lab-based practical, then forget to put it back on. I don't consider it a high priority item and when I'm dashing around it does sometimes just get overlooked.
Does a tie matter? If so, why? I'm struggling to come up with reasons, especially for this sort of work, so interested if anyone thinks ties have any sort of positive impact. Never really pondered it in that much detail until I worked for my current boss, who seems to think it's the be all and end all! I should add that I always dress smartly for work in proper shoes, smart trousers and a formal shirt, so it's not like I'm turning up in shorts and flip flops.
In reply to 1234None:
Wearing a tie isn't important.
Conforming to workplace norms usually is even if you don't particularly agree with them. Just makes things run smoother. Go with it.
My female boss once told me my skirts were inappropriate. I couldn't be bothered to argue - just bought different stuff. Life is too short.
Wearing a tie isn't important.
Conforming to workplace norms usually is even if you don't particularly agree with them. Just makes things run smoother. Go with it.
My female boss once told me my skirts were inappropriate. I couldn't be bothered to argue - just bought different stuff. Life is too short.
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In reply to 1234None:
I have the same problem; the dress code for men in my office remains shirt and tie. I haven't worn a tie on a sales trip to Africa for about 15 years but still have to put one on at home. Last summer in hot weather I left it off and got a snotty remark from my boss.
For arty media types I think a tie looks wrong but I still believe teachers ought to wear them to add a touch or formality to their dress.
I have the same problem; the dress code for men in my office remains shirt and tie. I haven't worn a tie on a sales trip to Africa for about 15 years but still have to put one on at home. Last summer in hot weather I left it off and got a snotty remark from my boss.
For arty media types I think a tie looks wrong but I still believe teachers ought to wear them to add a touch or formality to their dress.
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In reply to 1234None:
if somebody asked me to electrocute a stranger , i might do so , if the person asking is wearing a tie and lab coat
if somebody asked me to electrocute a stranger , i might do so , if the person asking is wearing a tie and lab coat
Post edited at 17:09
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In reply to marsbar:
I agree with all that, and that's how I responded to the threat. I do think it's a bit of an overreaction though, to threaten disciplinary action. The worrying thing really is that I know I could easily forget to put it back on in the future at some point, as I do need to take it off at times for good reasons. A quick "ahem...where's your tie" would suffice if that happens surely, rather than disciplinary?
I agree with all that, and that's how I responded to the threat. I do think it's a bit of an overreaction though, to threaten disciplinary action. The worrying thing really is that I know I could easily forget to put it back on in the future at some point, as I do need to take it off at times for good reasons. A quick "ahem...where's your tie" would suffice if that happens surely, rather than disciplinary?
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In reply to Babika:
Wasn't considering making an issue of it. Just wondering what people think...
> Wearing a tie isn't important.
> Conforming to workplace norms usually is even if you don't particularly agree with them. Just makes things run smoother. Go with it.
> My female boss once told me my skirts were inappropriate. I couldn't be bothered to argue - just bought different stuff. Life is too short.
Wasn't considering making an issue of it. Just wondering what people think...
In reply to 1234None:
When the disciplinary happens, presuming they will point to a policy that you have fallen foul of?
If so, I guess its fair cop.
If not explicit in any policy, not really sure how they think it'll stick?
When the disciplinary happens, presuming they will point to a policy that you have fallen foul of?
If so, I guess its fair cop.
If not explicit in any policy, not really sure how they think it'll stick?
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In reply to 1234None:
I have always hated them and successfully campaigned to abolish them in our office. If someone commented I would point at a female colleague and point out that she was't wearing one so why should I. However if your pupils have to wear them you may have a struggle.
Male dress code was formulated before there were many women in the work place and has been fossilised ever since.
I have always hated them and successfully campaigned to abolish them in our office. If someone commented I would point at a female colleague and point out that she was't wearing one so why should I. However if your pupils have to wear them you may have a struggle.
Male dress code was formulated before there were many women in the work place and has been fossilised ever since.
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In reply to 1234None:
I guess its part of your corporate dress code, effectively your uniform, and in a public facing position appearance does matter. I was told by a sales rep once "always look smarter than the customer", probably for the same reasons.
I wear jeans and a T-shirt, as I'm usually inside or under a machine of some sort. Otherwise I'd probably be in trousers and a shirt, with a tie on special days.
I think a quiet nudge and an explanation as to why your lack of tie was a problem would have been better, but at least you now know it's important. What would they say if you chose to wear a novelty tie of some sort?
I guess its part of your corporate dress code, effectively your uniform, and in a public facing position appearance does matter. I was told by a sales rep once "always look smarter than the customer", probably for the same reasons.
I wear jeans and a T-shirt, as I'm usually inside or under a machine of some sort. Otherwise I'd probably be in trousers and a shirt, with a tie on special days.
I think a quiet nudge and an explanation as to why your lack of tie was a problem would have been better, but at least you now know it's important. What would they say if you chose to wear a novelty tie of some sort?
In reply to 1234None:
I work at a tax consultancy firm and visit around 80 clients each year to perform my work. I generally deal with people in the finance or technical departments. Barely anyone I visit wears a tie.
Our company policy is business dress at clients but this carries with it an element of discretion. Ties are not required - just look smart and professional. Our staff are educated, well qualified people. They know what is appropriate and what isn't in front of their varied client base. Management don't dictate what they have to wear down to the finer details (e.g. whether or not to wear a tie).
In the office and away from clients, anything goes. My MD has been known to come in her pajamas. I was a single football result away from having to wear a pair of her knickers for a day last week as a result of a (nearly) misjudged bet on my part.
So to conclude, a tie doesn't matter.
I work at a tax consultancy firm and visit around 80 clients each year to perform my work. I generally deal with people in the finance or technical departments. Barely anyone I visit wears a tie.
Our company policy is business dress at clients but this carries with it an element of discretion. Ties are not required - just look smart and professional. Our staff are educated, well qualified people. They know what is appropriate and what isn't in front of their varied client base. Management don't dictate what they have to wear down to the finer details (e.g. whether or not to wear a tie).
In the office and away from clients, anything goes. My MD has been known to come in her pajamas. I was a single football result away from having to wear a pair of her knickers for a day last week as a result of a (nearly) misjudged bet on my part.
So to conclude, a tie doesn't matter.
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In reply to 1234None:
ARe the students at liberty to do same?
or are they subservient, to you ------------- like you to your boss ?
> I'm a teacher in an international school.
ARe the students at liberty to do same?
or are they subservient, to you ------------- like you to your boss ?
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In reply to 1234None:
There's your reason, I'm afraid. Your pupils have to, you're a teacher and supposed to set an example so you've got to wear a tie. The fact that it'll make naff all difference to pupil's behaviour, exam grades and the like doesn't really come into it.
Outside teaching, I only think it makes a difference in an outward-facing role; when you're representing your company or organisation then scrubbing up makes a good impression. If you're in a job where everyone you see every day is a colleague then I don't see the need. Smart casual should be fine and if it isn't, then someone's attitudes need to be dragged into the modern world (though you may have a struggle . . . ).
T.
> After being reprimanded and threatened with disciplinary action for removing my tie at work today . . . I'm a teacher in an international school
There's your reason, I'm afraid. Your pupils have to, you're a teacher and supposed to set an example so you've got to wear a tie. The fact that it'll make naff all difference to pupil's behaviour, exam grades and the like doesn't really come into it.
Outside teaching, I only think it makes a difference in an outward-facing role; when you're representing your company or organisation then scrubbing up makes a good impression. If you're in a job where everyone you see every day is a colleague then I don't see the need. Smart casual should be fine and if it isn't, then someone's attitudes need to be dragged into the modern world (though you may have a struggle . . . ).
T.
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In reply to Axel Smeets:
My place has the same policy. Suited and booted for external meetings but wear what you like otherwise. It's one of the things I like most - it might be small but being able to rock up to the office in jeans, trainers and a band t shirt (with a visible tattoo and a ring in my nose) makes me inordinately happy. Mind you, I work from home 90% of the time so I'm generally in my pajamas...
Most places don't seem to make their staff wear ties nowadays. Even before we went casual ties were only seen if people were dressed up for something or other. They do seem spectacularly pointless items of clothing and I've never really understood the point of them.
My place has the same policy. Suited and booted for external meetings but wear what you like otherwise. It's one of the things I like most - it might be small but being able to rock up to the office in jeans, trainers and a band t shirt (with a visible tattoo and a ring in my nose) makes me inordinately happy. Mind you, I work from home 90% of the time so I'm generally in my pajamas...
Most places don't seem to make their staff wear ties nowadays. Even before we went casual ties were only seen if people were dressed up for something or other. They do seem spectacularly pointless items of clothing and I've never really understood the point of them.
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In reply to climbingpixie:
Agreed!
And again!
> being able to rock up to the office in jeans, trainers and a band t shirt (with a visible tattoo and a ring in my nose) makes me inordinately happy.
Agreed!
> They do seem spectacularly pointless items of clothing and I've never really understood the point of them.
And again!
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In reply to 1234None:
in my company men are supposed to wear a tie but I've taken that as optional in my own role (non-client facing), and might wear a tie one day out of five. I will wear one for meetings though. A few times a previous manager mentioned my lack of tie wearing but nothing came of that (in that role I was one of his more experienced, qualified & productive staff so...).
many of the professionals I see in the building my company shares with other do not wear ties and it doesn't detract from their professionalism. Hopefully ties are on a slow death.
in my company men are supposed to wear a tie but I've taken that as optional in my own role (non-client facing), and might wear a tie one day out of five. I will wear one for meetings though. A few times a previous manager mentioned my lack of tie wearing but nothing came of that (in that role I was one of his more experienced, qualified & productive staff so...).
many of the professionals I see in the building my company shares with other do not wear ties and it doesn't detract from their professionalism. Hopefully ties are on a slow death.
In reply to Babika:
Had the same with my boss once. She also suggested I should at least shave off the beard.
> My female boss once told me my skirts were inappropriate.
Had the same with my boss once. She also suggested I should at least shave off the beard.
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In reply to 1234None:
It's a stupid garment. But expectations are sometimes there, in the end if you don't like them it's time to look for a new job, if it bothers you that much.
It's a stupid garment. But expectations are sometimes there, in the end if you don't like them it's time to look for a new job, if it bothers you that much.
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In reply to 1234None:
I'm sure it depends on the kind of school and what kind of teacher you are.
I have tie lessons (classroom based) and non-tie lessons (gardening cycling, messy arts and crafts etc.) and can alternate throughout the day
I'm sure it depends on the kind of school and what kind of teacher you are.
I have tie lessons (classroom based) and non-tie lessons (gardening cycling, messy arts and crafts etc.) and can alternate throughout the day
In reply to climbingpixie:
There is a certain irony here
> It's one of the things I like most - it might be small but being able to rock up to the office in jeans, trainers and a band t shirt (with a visible tattoo and a ring in my nose) makes me inordinately happy.
> They do seem spectacularly pointless items of clothing and I've never really understood the point of them.
There is a certain irony here
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In reply to Axel Smeets:
It's ironic - what used to be a symbol of high socio-economic status now seems to be the opposite. People like carpet cleaners and some shop assistants or attendants of various kinds seem to have to wear ties whereas tax consultants and people who work in international telecoms companies (to cite another example) don't have to.
It's a bit like certain titles - if you hear someone being addressed as 'Mr' Binks or 'Mrs' Jenkins, chances are that they're a gardener or cleaning lady or some other such occupation. Isn't snobbery amazing in the contortions it gets people into?
> I work at a tax consultancy firm and visit around 80 clients each year to perform my work. I generally deal with people in the finance or technical departments. Barely anyone I visit wears a tie. > In the office and away from clients, anything goes. My MD has been known to come in her pajamas. I was a single football result away from having to wear a pair of her knickers for a day last week as a result of a (nearly) misjudged bet on my part. > So to conclude, a tie doesn't matter.
It's ironic - what used to be a symbol of high socio-economic status now seems to be the opposite. People like carpet cleaners and some shop assistants or attendants of various kinds seem to have to wear ties whereas tax consultants and people who work in international telecoms companies (to cite another example) don't have to.
It's a bit like certain titles - if you hear someone being addressed as 'Mr' Binks or 'Mrs' Jenkins, chances are that they're a gardener or cleaning lady or some other such occupation. Isn't snobbery amazing in the contortions it gets people into?
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In reply to 1234None:
We used to have a "dress down Friday" which worked quite well but when the normal dress code changed to "smart casual" it soon deteriorated into jeans and tee shirts on Friday and then that became jeans and tee shirts all the time which made the office look and feel unprofessional. I never had a problem with collar and tie when performing any customer facing situations. I always found that I was treated with more respect when I was in a suit and tie.
Al
We used to have a "dress down Friday" which worked quite well but when the normal dress code changed to "smart casual" it soon deteriorated into jeans and tee shirts on Friday and then that became jeans and tee shirts all the time which made the office look and feel unprofessional. I never had a problem with collar and tie when performing any customer facing situations. I always found that I was treated with more respect when I was in a suit and tie.
Al
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In reply to 1234None:
I find the tie and suit dress code insane. Pointless, and at best all for appearance, which ultimately has no bearing on you capability and the service provided. In fact, I'm probably less productive in a suit.
Fortunately my office has no dress code. I didn't even wear a suit to my interview, and no one would even consider commenting on the dress of others - some choose to wear suits, most of us turn up casually dressed. Really is outdated idiocy to behave otherwise, in my opinion and I'd probably resign my position if someone started making an issue out of me not having some fabric tied around my neck.
I find the tie and suit dress code insane. Pointless, and at best all for appearance, which ultimately has no bearing on you capability and the service provided. In fact, I'm probably less productive in a suit.
Fortunately my office has no dress code. I didn't even wear a suit to my interview, and no one would even consider commenting on the dress of others - some choose to wear suits, most of us turn up casually dressed. Really is outdated idiocy to behave otherwise, in my opinion and I'd probably resign my position if someone started making an issue out of me not having some fabric tied around my neck.
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In reply to David Martin:
Really is outdated idiocy to behave otherwise, in my opinion and I'd probably resign my position if someone started making an issue out of me not having some fabric tied around my neck.
I've noticed that Jeremy Corbyn now regularly wears a tie. So, has he realised that: -
1. A tie is the correct dress code for his position.
2. Kowtowing to the establishment is actually OK.
3. It looks good and might get him some more votes.
Really is outdated idiocy to behave otherwise, in my opinion and I'd probably resign my position if someone started making an issue out of me not having some fabric tied around my neck.
I've noticed that Jeremy Corbyn now regularly wears a tie. So, has he realised that: -
1. A tie is the correct dress code for his position.
2. Kowtowing to the establishment is actually OK.
3. It looks good and might get him some more votes.
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In reply to 1234None:
What kind of massive wanker would threaten you with disciplinary action before just saying "err - where's your tie?"?
If they choose to have a thing about everyone wearing a tie, then obviously go with it rather than cause aggro. For such things that management want, then if someone's not doing it, they'd be fair to remind and them; then if there's no response, ask why they're not doing it; and only then escalate. Jumping in at threats of disciplinary just screams of crazy management insecurity - everyone know how to ask for something politely.
What kind of massive wanker would threaten you with disciplinary action before just saying "err - where's your tie?"?
If they choose to have a thing about everyone wearing a tie, then obviously go with it rather than cause aggro. For such things that management want, then if someone's not doing it, they'd be fair to remind and them; then if there's no response, ask why they're not doing it; and only then escalate. Jumping in at threats of disciplinary just screams of crazy management insecurity - everyone know how to ask for something politely.
Post edited at 23:06
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In reply to 1234None:
What about skinny ties? I bet any formal dress code you have does not consider this, leaving you some safe ground from which to really wind up the jobsworth?
On the other hand, if you like your job and/or you like the money from your job, I'd probably not try your luck. It might be worth discussing with your manager how this was a forgetful mistake given your health and safety need to regularly remove your tie for the lab, and how their immediate escalation to threats of formal action seemed to you out of proportion. Guess that depends a lot on them, and from what little I have to go by I'm not positive...
What about skinny ties? I bet any formal dress code you have does not consider this, leaving you some safe ground from which to really wind up the jobsworth?
On the other hand, if you like your job and/or you like the money from your job, I'd probably not try your luck. It might be worth discussing with your manager how this was a forgetful mistake given your health and safety need to regularly remove your tie for the lab, and how their immediate escalation to threats of formal action seemed to you out of proportion. Guess that depends a lot on them, and from what little I have to go by I'm not positive...
Post edited at 23:19
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In reply to 1234None:
The Tie performs 2 functions, it hides the hideous chest hair of the open button and it constrains the flabby neck and chins of the portly and the elderly.
That's why it became popular and why the stylish chap replaces it with a cravat when wearing an open neck shirt (Cary Grant, a superb exponent of the cravat, Basil Fawlty another).
It's a bit like the ladies fashion for wearing gloves, lacy or otherwise. It was to protect our eyes from the veiny, wrinkled hands that gave a woman's age away.
Coco Chanel, populiser/inventor of the LBD thought hems should cover the knees because she thought most women had horrible knees and those with good enough knees to show them off should keep them covered so as to avoid a fashion arms race and demonstrate solidarity with the ugly kneed womenfolk.
So by wearing a tie you're showing solidarity with those who may look like a mess without one.
The Tie performs 2 functions, it hides the hideous chest hair of the open button and it constrains the flabby neck and chins of the portly and the elderly.
That's why it became popular and why the stylish chap replaces it with a cravat when wearing an open neck shirt (Cary Grant, a superb exponent of the cravat, Basil Fawlty another).
It's a bit like the ladies fashion for wearing gloves, lacy or otherwise. It was to protect our eyes from the veiny, wrinkled hands that gave a woman's age away.
Coco Chanel, populiser/inventor of the LBD thought hems should cover the knees because she thought most women had horrible knees and those with good enough knees to show them off should keep them covered so as to avoid a fashion arms race and demonstrate solidarity with the ugly kneed womenfolk.
So by wearing a tie you're showing solidarity with those who may look like a mess without one.
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In reply to Name Changed 34:
Aha...actually, if they came across a rule that had no real basis, I'd fully expect them to challenge it. Subservience isn't what anyone wants from students nowadays, surely?! A real love of learning and engagement in lessons makes it unnecessary.
> ARe the students at liberty to do same?
> or are they subservient, to you ------------- like you to your boss ?
Aha...actually, if they came across a rule that had no real basis, I'd fully expect them to challenge it. Subservience isn't what anyone wants from students nowadays, surely?! A real love of learning and engagement in lessons makes it unnecessary.
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In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Playing devil's advocate, what exactly am I setting an example of here by wearing a tie? That it's all about being an obedient worker and not about critical thinking and questioning pointless, fossilised policies? Setting an example that people should be judged in their effectiveness based on their dress? Your "reason" does sort of cement the idea that the Victorians built a very robust machine when they set up formal education...so robust that it is still running today!
interesting points raised by all others...so thanks!
> There's your reason, I'm afraid. Your pupils have to, you're a teacher and supposed to set an example so you've got to wear a tie. The fact that it'll make naff all difference to pupil's behaviour, exam grades and the like doesn't really come into it.
Playing devil's advocate, what exactly am I setting an example of here by wearing a tie? That it's all about being an obedient worker and not about critical thinking and questioning pointless, fossilised policies? Setting an example that people should be judged in their effectiveness based on their dress? Your "reason" does sort of cement the idea that the Victorians built a very robust machine when they set up formal education...so robust that it is still running today!
interesting points raised by all others...so thanks!
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In reply to all:
My response to my boss was in the form of a polite apology and that I'd do my best to make sure I have a tie on at all times. I started the thread as this situation did seem like an overreaction from my boss. It also prompted some thinking about exactly what place stuff like this has in the workplace these days.
Those that responded suggesting that it's about subservient students and setting examples with dress seem to be as stuck in the past as my boss. If tou have any idea what happens in modern classrooms then you'll know this isn't the climate we are trying to create!
My response to my boss was in the form of a polite apology and that I'd do my best to make sure I have a tie on at all times. I started the thread as this situation did seem like an overreaction from my boss. It also prompted some thinking about exactly what place stuff like this has in the workplace these days.
Those that responded suggesting that it's about subservient students and setting examples with dress seem to be as stuck in the past as my boss. If tou have any idea what happens in modern classrooms then you'll know this isn't the climate we are trying to create!
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In reply to 1234None:
Dress codes in this country are generally ridiculous. Ok I don't mean not looking smart for clients, but the idea that in non client facing roles a shirt and tie are needed...foolish. It does not make people work harder, it does not make them feel 'at work' and get more out of them.
In front of clients (or students), a shirt and trousers is sensible. A tie? Personally I wear one in front of clients but that's because I'm expected to tuck my shirt in and due to having ridiculously long legs it makes me look less daftly proportioned. Otherwise I wouldn't.
Even more ridiculous in summer when the women wear sensible clothes for the weather while the blokes sit sweating and looking horrendous in 'office attire'.
Dress codes in this country are generally ridiculous. Ok I don't mean not looking smart for clients, but the idea that in non client facing roles a shirt and tie are needed...foolish. It does not make people work harder, it does not make them feel 'at work' and get more out of them.
In front of clients (or students), a shirt and trousers is sensible. A tie? Personally I wear one in front of clients but that's because I'm expected to tuck my shirt in and due to having ridiculously long legs it makes me look less daftly proportioned. Otherwise I wouldn't.
Even more ridiculous in summer when the women wear sensible clothes for the weather while the blokes sit sweating and looking horrendous in 'office attire'.
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In reply to 1234None:
In my line of work they are mostly a thing of the past however, as I sit here writing this I'm waiting for my US VP who is coming to see a customer with me. And I'm wearing a tie.
In my line of work they are mostly a thing of the past however, as I sit here writing this I'm waiting for my US VP who is coming to see a customer with me. And I'm wearing a tie.
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In reply to 1234None:
Do the women have to wear ties, or can they turn up in workwear which is suitable for all the tasks that they have to complete in the day? I would argue that it is discrimination if it is not the same rule for all
Personally, I spend one half of my working life in goretex or paramo, and the other half sitting on the sofa in whatever I want (often my jammies! )
Do the women have to wear ties, or can they turn up in workwear which is suitable for all the tasks that they have to complete in the day? I would argue that it is discrimination if it is not the same rule for all
Personally, I spend one half of my working life in goretex or paramo, and the other half sitting on the sofa in whatever I want (often my jammies! )
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In reply to 1234None:
Hardly ever wear one as it's generally roasting outside where I work and I have to spend time traipsing around dusty airbases, so ties get very uncomfortable. If I'm meeting the customer in an office environment or going to an interview then I will wear one, rather than take the risk that I might offend. I keep a neutral tie both in my work bag and desk drawers just in case.
Fortunately my boss seems to have a similar attitude.
Hardly ever wear one as it's generally roasting outside where I work and I have to spend time traipsing around dusty airbases, so ties get very uncomfortable. If I'm meeting the customer in an office environment or going to an interview then I will wear one, rather than take the risk that I might offend. I keep a neutral tie both in my work bag and desk drawers just in case.
Fortunately my boss seems to have a similar attitude.
In reply to 1234None:
>
You mean conforming to societal norms, that make it nice for us all to live. Its because people choose to ignore norms that we have loads of daft laws, like laws against dog poo, texting while driving, littering, really because some people think they are just a bit special.
Does wearing a tie matter, no.
Does a teacher setting an example matter, oh yes, it really matters.
>
> Those that responded suggesting that it's about subservient students and setting examples with dress seem to be as stuck in the past as my boss. If tou have any idea what happens in modern classrooms then you'll know this isn't the climate we are trying to create!
You mean conforming to societal norms, that make it nice for us all to live. Its because people choose to ignore norms that we have loads of daft laws, like laws against dog poo, texting while driving, littering, really because some people think they are just a bit special.
Does wearing a tie matter, no.
Does a teacher setting an example matter, oh yes, it really matters.
Post edited at 08:27
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In reply to Reggie Perrin:
It's not the same thing to question daft rules with no real basis, as it is to refuse to conform to justifiable rules or societal norms. There are plenty of things teachers do to "set an example" that are relevant to today's world, without wearing ties.
> You mean conforming to societal norms, that make it nice for us all to live. Its because people choose to ignore norms that we have loads of daft laws, like laws against dog poo, texting while driving, littering, really because some people think they are just a bit special.
> Does wearing a tie matter, no.
> Does a teacher setting an example matter, oh yes, it really matters.
It's not the same thing to question daft rules with no real basis, as it is to refuse to conform to justifiable rules or societal norms. There are plenty of things teachers do to "set an example" that are relevant to today's world, without wearing ties.
In reply to girlymonkey:
In any other part of the world, I'd agree, but in the Middle East using sexual equality as an argument for anything is really a hiding to nothing! Sadly.
> Do the women have to wear ties, or can they turn up in workwear which is suitable for all the tasks that they have to complete in the day? I would argue that it is discrimination if it is not the same rule for all.
In any other part of the world, I'd agree, but in the Middle East using sexual equality as an argument for anything is really a hiding to nothing! Sadly.
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In reply to Reggie Perrin:
I would argue strongly for societal norms to be sensible, and for the children to be following them because they thought about why it makes sense.
I can explain easily to my class why texting when driving is a bad idea. As far as I can tell wearing a tie is one of those things that a man has to do because he has to. Although in my school, he doesn't. Doesn't seem to have any impact on the education.
I would argue strongly for societal norms to be sensible, and for the children to be following them because they thought about why it makes sense.
I can explain easily to my class why texting when driving is a bad idea. As far as I can tell wearing a tie is one of those things that a man has to do because he has to. Although in my school, he doesn't. Doesn't seem to have any impact on the education.
In reply to 1234None:
Is it one of those "more British than the British" places? That would explain the tie.
Is it one of those "more British than the British" places? That would explain the tie.
1
> Even more ridiculous in summer when the women wear sensible clothes for the weather while the blokes sit sweating and looking horrendous in 'office attire'.
I'm expected to wear a tie at all times, even outdoors on "break duty" when the temps frequently hit 50 degrees.
In reply to Mark Westerman:
I own 2 novelty ones now! Especially purchased last night to keep the boss happy. Sporting a Mr Men one as we speak.
I own 2 novelty ones now! Especially purchased last night to keep the boss happy. Sporting a Mr Men one as we speak.
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In reply to 1234None:
https://www.swaggerandswoon.com/index.php/novelty-ties-science-ties-c-285_5...
This one
http://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Optic-Tie-White-Colors/dp/B00KECCT4E
is described as classy. I don't agree. But as a science thing it could be used to demonstrate and annoy your boss!
https://www.swaggerandswoon.com/index.php/novelty-ties-science-ties-c-285_5...
This one
http://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Optic-Tie-White-Colors/dp/B00KECCT4E
is described as classy. I don't agree. But as a science thing it could be used to demonstrate and annoy your boss!
2
In reply to marsbar:
Agree. Perhaps this sort of approach explains why 50% of the staff are departing in June. I'll be joining them after this debacle.
Agree. Perhaps this sort of approach explains why 50% of the staff are departing in June. I'll be joining them after this debacle.
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In reply to 1234None:
I haven't worn a tie at work for 10 years. I just don't like them. I'm more smartly dressed than nearly all the people wearing ties.
I haven't worn a tie at work for 10 years. I just don't like them. I'm more smartly dressed than nearly all the people wearing ties.
In reply to girlymonkey:
Yes, I'm lucky that I can wear what's appropriate. Which is hoodie and jeans when working at home, chinos and shirt in the office, and suit and subtly elitist tie when I'm on duty.
> Personally, I spend one half of my working life in goretex or paramo, and the other half sitting on the sofa in whatever I want (often my jammies! )
Yes, I'm lucky that I can wear what's appropriate. Which is hoodie and jeans when working at home, chinos and shirt in the office, and suit and subtly elitist tie when I'm on duty.
In reply to 1234None:
I assume parents decide to send their children to that school based on a whole load of things, uniform being one of them. Maybe how the teachers dress another. If you do not like it leave and go work at a school that has a dress code you do like or become Headmaster and change the rules.
Staff in a McDonalds have to wear a certain uniform, Police have to, just sometimes in life we have to do things.
Mind UKC is a good place to vent your frustration and have a moan
> It's not the same thing to question daft rules with no real basis, as it is to refuse to conform to justifiable rules or societal norms. There are plenty of things teachers do to "set an example" that are relevant to today's world, without wearing ties.
I assume parents decide to send their children to that school based on a whole load of things, uniform being one of them. Maybe how the teachers dress another. If you do not like it leave and go work at a school that has a dress code you do like or become Headmaster and change the rules.
Staff in a McDonalds have to wear a certain uniform, Police have to, just sometimes in life we have to do things.
Mind UKC is a good place to vent your frustration and have a moan
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In reply to climbingpixie:
About as pointless as, say, tattoos and body piercings?
> ....with a visible tattoo and a ring in my nose...
> They do seem spectacularly pointless items of clothing and I've never really understood the point of them.
About as pointless as, say, tattoos and body piercings?
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In reply to GridNorth:
I don't really see that. When I lived and worked in Norway, many years ago (for a Norwegian firm) the contrast with the UK firm that I'd left was very strong. Suits were the norm in my UK workplace, but jeans and T-shirt were normal in Norway, except on certain occasions when visiting clients, or when clients were coming in. The Norwegian company was by and large much more professional, dynamic and forward-looking than its British counterparts (though probably over half its staff were Brits....the ones who were more worried about doing a professional job than about dress codes maybe, so left a stifling British environment for a more liberal one elsewhere? ).
Now in my office in the UK, I normally wear a casual shirt or t-shirt and jeans. Most of my colleagues do, too. I keep a pair of slacks, slightly less casual shirt, tie and jacket in the cupboard in my office, just in case, and would probably wear a suit when visiting certain of our more conservative clients. It doesn't make us look or feel unprofessional in any way, IMO.
In contrast with what someone else said, though, I would almost always wear a suit when visiting clients in Africa or the Middle East....through that can vary. In Abu Dhabi, for example, I'd be expected to wear a suit and tie by any client I visited, whereas just up the road in Dubai a shirt, slacks and tie would be fine for most.
> ...that became jeans and tee shirts all the time which made the office look and feel unprofessional.
I don't really see that. When I lived and worked in Norway, many years ago (for a Norwegian firm) the contrast with the UK firm that I'd left was very strong. Suits were the norm in my UK workplace, but jeans and T-shirt were normal in Norway, except on certain occasions when visiting clients, or when clients were coming in. The Norwegian company was by and large much more professional, dynamic and forward-looking than its British counterparts (though probably over half its staff were Brits....the ones who were more worried about doing a professional job than about dress codes maybe, so left a stifling British environment for a more liberal one elsewhere? ).
Now in my office in the UK, I normally wear a casual shirt or t-shirt and jeans. Most of my colleagues do, too. I keep a pair of slacks, slightly less casual shirt, tie and jacket in the cupboard in my office, just in case, and would probably wear a suit when visiting certain of our more conservative clients. It doesn't make us look or feel unprofessional in any way, IMO.
In contrast with what someone else said, though, I would almost always wear a suit when visiting clients in Africa or the Middle East....through that can vary. In Abu Dhabi, for example, I'd be expected to wear a suit and tie by any client I visited, whereas just up the road in Dubai a shirt, slacks and tie would be fine for most.
In reply to Reggie Perrin:
I get your point, but I do think it is a shame that people are so superficial. I have taught in various schools, and I do think that the ones with more relaxed dress codes have less conflict. Enforcing school uniform is not a good use of my time, and distracts from what we are there for.
I get your point, but I do think it is a shame that people are so superficial. I have taught in various schools, and I do think that the ones with more relaxed dress codes have less conflict. Enforcing school uniform is not a good use of my time, and distracts from what we are there for.
In reply to 1234None:
A tie is just an arrow that points to your dick in case you forget where it is...
A tie is just an arrow that points to your dick in case you forget where it is...
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In reply to 1234None:
I'm guessing that your employer thinks it's important to the income stream to maintain a certain illusion to your customers. Namely that they have entrusted their offspring's education to a respectable Englishman, rather than a scruffy climbing bum from Widnes.
I don't suppose that asking your union rep to take it up as a matter of health and safety is an option....
I always wear a tie whenever I have to meet our customers - about once every 4 or 5 years !
I'm guessing that your employer thinks it's important to the income stream to maintain a certain illusion to your customers. Namely that they have entrusted their offspring's education to a respectable Englishman, rather than a scruffy climbing bum from Widnes.
I don't suppose that asking your union rep to take it up as a matter of health and safety is an option....
I always wear a tie whenever I have to meet our customers - about once every 4 or 5 years !
1
In reply to 1234None:
Compliance, I'm afraid. Like it or loathe it, in that role in that place wearing a tie is what you're expected to do whether pupil or male teacher.
I hope you teach critical thinking in your lessons. You could use wearing a tie as an example.
T.
> Playing devil's advocate, what exactly am I setting an example of here by wearing a tie?
Compliance, I'm afraid. Like it or loathe it, in that role in that place wearing a tie is what you're expected to do whether pupil or male teacher.
> That it's all about being an obedient worker and not about critical thinking
I hope you teach critical thinking in your lessons. You could use wearing a tie as an example.
T.
In reply to Baron Weasel:
Does that happen often?
> A tie is just an arrow that points to your dick in case you forget where it is...
Does that happen often?
In reply to 1234None:
No, but I used to. I couldn't bear the horrific symbolism of tying a little noose around my neck before leaving the house each morning.
There's always pupils who keep on asking "But why?..." and I don't think we should lose that as we grow up. "You have to wear a tie." But why?
No, but I used to. I couldn't bear the horrific symbolism of tying a little noose around my neck before leaving the house each morning.
There's always pupils who keep on asking "But why?..." and I don't think we should lose that as we grow up. "You have to wear a tie." But why?
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Yes, we used to call it the "corporate noose" at work. I hated them. Don't wear them any more. I like smart shirts and trousers though - quite cheap to buy and I can wear the same clothes all the time and nobody bats an eyelid.
> No, but I used to. I couldn't bear the horrific symbolism of tying a little noose around my neck before leaving the house each morning.
Yes, we used to call it the "corporate noose" at work. I hated them. Don't wear them any more. I like smart shirts and trousers though - quite cheap to buy and I can wear the same clothes all the time and nobody bats an eyelid.
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In reply to 1234None:
over reaction? sounds like total idiocy, control freakery and an inability to communicate effectively to me. as you say "ahem, I know its hot but please put your tie back on" would be much more constructive in terms of good staff relations.
over reaction? sounds like total idiocy, control freakery and an inability to communicate effectively to me. as you say "ahem, I know its hot but please put your tie back on" would be much more constructive in terms of good staff relations.
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In reply to 1234None:
Can you tuck your tie into your shirt instead to achieve the same result heath and safety wise?
Can you tuck your tie into your shirt instead to achieve the same result heath and safety wise?
In reply to 1234None:
despite working for the government no-one expects us to wear them - and no-one does - outside London anyway. I wear one when I go to meetings in places where everyone else does eg Parliament but thats about it
despite working for the government no-one expects us to wear them - and no-one does - outside London anyway. I wear one when I go to meetings in places where everyone else does eg Parliament but thats about it
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In reply to 1234None:
There is no requirement to wear a tie in my office but I do, I like them. I like having separate work and casual clothes. I find it helps me change mindsets from work to real life, otherwise work can penetrate into time I should be thinking about and enjoying other things.
There is no requirement to wear a tie in my office but I do, I like them. I like having separate work and casual clothes. I find it helps me change mindsets from work to real life, otherwise work can penetrate into time I should be thinking about and enjoying other things.
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In reply to 1234None:
Climbers aren't exactly well known for their sartorial elegance, so perhaps not the best place to seek advice.
If your contract says you have to wear a tie then you need to wear a tie.
I hate ties but my job dictates that I wear one in public. With the office door locked it gets taken off, in public view, goes back on.
Why? I get paid to wear one and the public react better when I'm properly dressed.
Just avoid the ultimate fashion faux pas of wearing a suit and then taking off the tie to try and look cool.
Climbers aren't exactly well known for their sartorial elegance, so perhaps not the best place to seek advice.
If your contract says you have to wear a tie then you need to wear a tie.
I hate ties but my job dictates that I wear one in public. With the office door locked it gets taken off, in public view, goes back on.
Why? I get paid to wear one and the public react better when I'm properly dressed.
Just avoid the ultimate fashion faux pas of wearing a suit and then taking off the tie to try and look cool.
1
In reply to 1234None:
Depends what a persons job is as to whether a tie is appropriate.
I own 4 ties - a wedding tie, a funeral tie, an interview tie and a Christmas tie (the kind that plays really annoying beepy tunes).
My work has a smart dress code but ties are optional. Personally I prefer to see a nice shirt without a tie than a cheapo white shirt with tie. Also, I find working with my top shirt button done up is annoying.
Depends what a persons job is as to whether a tie is appropriate.
I own 4 ties - a wedding tie, a funeral tie, an interview tie and a Christmas tie (the kind that plays really annoying beepy tunes).
My work has a smart dress code but ties are optional. Personally I prefer to see a nice shirt without a tie than a cheapo white shirt with tie. Also, I find working with my top shirt button done up is annoying.
In reply to planetmarshall:
There's a big difference between wearing or doing something because you like the way it looks (ties included) and being forced to wear it. I'd be pretty pissed off if my company said I had to wear a nose ring!
There's a big difference between wearing or doing something because you like the way it looks (ties included) and being forced to wear it. I'd be pretty pissed off if my company said I had to wear a nose ring!
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In reply to Reggie Perrin:
You're the only person so far who's come up with the response...take from that whatever you want.
In a survey of parents what proportion do you think would say that wearing a tie is an essential characteristic of a good teacher? How many would give that as one of the reasons for choosing a particular school? Hmm
You're the only person so far who's come up with the response...take from that whatever you want.
In a survey of parents what proportion do you think would say that wearing a tie is an essential characteristic of a good teacher? How many would give that as one of the reasons for choosing a particular school? Hmm
In reply to Timmd:
I do at times, but other times it gets taken off. Just depends on the circumstances.
> Can you tuck your tie into your shirt instead to achieve the same result heath and safety wise?
I do at times, but other times it gets taken off. Just depends on the circumstances.
In reply to 1234None:
Yes you are quite correct, I apologise. The person in charge who reprimanded you is also wrong, may I take this opportunity to apologise on their behalf.
> You're the only person so far who's come up with the response...take from that whatever you want.
> In a survey of parents what proportion do you think would say that wearing a tie is an essential characteristic of a good teacher? How many would give that as one of the reasons for choosing a particular school? Hmm
Yes you are quite correct, I apologise. The person in charge who reprimanded you is also wrong, may I take this opportunity to apologise on their behalf.
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In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Not true. The kids don't wear them. Other males staff wear polo shirts with the school logo on them. I don't have one. And you're suggesting I don't comply out of choice, when instead I'm only pondering this after omitting to replace the tie on a single occasion, after taking it off for H&S reasons.
Mmmmm....you missed the point of what I was saying, as that WAS the point.
> Compliance, I'm afraid. Like it or loathe it, in that role in that place wearing a tie is what you're expected to do whether pupil or male teacher.
Not true. The kids don't wear them. Other males staff wear polo shirts with the school logo on them. I don't have one. And you're suggesting I don't comply out of choice, when instead I'm only pondering this after omitting to replace the tie on a single occasion, after taking it off for H&S reasons.
> I hope you teach critical thinking in your lessons. You could use wearing a tie as an example.
Mmmmm....you missed the point of what I was saying, as that WAS the point.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Widnes????
Union? In Kuwait? Hahahaha....! Even if there was a union it's not my style. I'd be more likely to sport ridiculous novelty ties for the rest of the year.
> I'm guessing that your employer thinks it's important to the income stream to maintain a certain illusion to your customers. Namely that they have entrusted their offspring's education to a respectable Englishman, rather than a scruffy climbing bum from Widnes.
Widnes????
> I don't suppose that asking your union rep to take it up as a matter of health and safety is an option....
Union? In Kuwait? Hahahaha....! Even if there was a union it's not my style. I'd be more likely to sport ridiculous novelty ties for the rest of the year.
In reply to 1234None:
It does if it get's wound into the lathe!
Nobody cares what I look like here (sort of hobo with a penchant for a nice wooly jumper in case anyone wondered) or if they do they keep it to themselves.
jk
> Does a tie matter?
It does if it get's wound into the lathe!
Nobody cares what I look like here (sort of hobo with a penchant for a nice wooly jumper in case anyone wondered) or if they do they keep it to themselves.
jk
In reply to 1234None:
You probably expect your kids to have their shirts in and ties out. You employer expects you to have your tie on. Being an international school they probably have higher and stricter standards which they will expect you to adhere to.
I'm on the side of the school, sorry.
That said im wearing jeans and a polo neck to work which isn't entirely appropriate.
You probably expect your kids to have their shirts in and ties out. You employer expects you to have your tie on. Being an international school they probably have higher and stricter standards which they will expect you to adhere to.
I'm on the side of the school, sorry.
That said im wearing jeans and a polo neck to work which isn't entirely appropriate.
In reply to 1234None:
No, I'm suggesting that since you've chosen the job, you've tacitly agreed to comply with the tie.
I suspect there have been nuances missed on both sides.
I shall leave it there. Tie or no tie, enjoy your job.
T.
> you're suggesting I don't comply out of choice
No, I'm suggesting that since you've chosen the job, you've tacitly agreed to comply with the tie.
> Mmmmm....you missed the point of what I was saying, as that WAS the point.
I suspect there have been nuances missed on both sides.
I shall leave it there. Tie or no tie, enjoy your job.
T.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
Honestly, I couldn't give a toss what they wear so long as they're keen to learn. But obviously, I tow the line and speak to them about their uniform if needed. I don't threaten to expel them from the school though, which would be the equivalent of my boss's behaviour...
> You probably expect your kids to have their shirts in and ties out.
Honestly, I couldn't give a toss what they wear so long as they're keen to learn. But obviously, I tow the line and speak to them about their uniform if needed. I don't threaten to expel them from the school though, which would be the equivalent of my boss's behaviour...
In reply to 1234None:
What do you teach, BTW?
> Honestly, I couldn't give a toss what they wear so long as they're keen to learn. But obviously, I tow the line and speak to them about their uniform if needed. I don't threaten to expel them from the school though, which would be the equivalent of my boss's behaviour...
What do you teach, BTW?
In reply to 1234None:
This is sartorial self-harming. Stop whilst you still can. If you can't stop get professional help until you can stop.
> I own 2 novelty ones now! Especially purchased last night to keep the boss happy. Sporting a Mr Men one as we speak.
This is sartorial self-harming. Stop whilst you still can. If you can't stop get professional help until you can stop.
1
In reply to winhill:
Would the person I seek help from be wearing a tie though? I'm not going to any counsellor who doesn't wear a tie...they'd obviously be crap.
> This is sartorial self-harming. Stop whilst you still can. If you can't stop get professional help until you can stop.
Would the person I seek help from be wearing a tie though? I'm not going to any counsellor who doesn't wear a tie...they'd obviously be crap.
In reply to 1234None:
You're a teacher, if you require your students to wear uniform you should wear a time.
I've just left a job where ties were once expected in the lab, and now required from management up. I've only gone tieless on China (culturally not worn) and Brazil (30C in trade show venue) sales trips.
I'm moving to a company where my fellow directors go tie-less. I'm going to structure to adjust but even more, what will my son by me for father's day and my wife for valentines! I might buck the trend, my expensive suits look wrong without a tie. Any shirt, tie-less, can look scruffy after half a day at work.
You're a teacher, if you require your students to wear uniform you should wear a time.
I've just left a job where ties were once expected in the lab, and now required from management up. I've only gone tieless on China (culturally not worn) and Brazil (30C in trade show venue) sales trips.
I'm moving to a company where my fellow directors go tie-less. I'm going to structure to adjust but even more, what will my son by me for father's day and my wife for valentines! I might buck the trend, my expensive suits look wrong without a tie. Any shirt, tie-less, can look scruffy after half a day at work.
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In reply to Jimbo C:
Funny that isn't it. It seems in many places you would be breaching a dress code if dressed cleanly, smartly but not wearing a tie (or some other minor indiscretion). Meanwhile you could wear your tie upon an ill-fitting, un-ironed, suit with one trouser leg longer than the other and that would be ok.
As said earlier, I'm just glad I can wear the same things to work as I would wear out on my weekends and out of work time. No judgements are made based on my appearance (I could have tattoos, piercings, or turn up to work in a skirt - its how diligent I am in undertaking my tasks that matters). That makes me feel much better about my employer and my employment knowing that is the case. They, likewise, gets me as I am, and I give no less to my employer than I give of myself in my free time.
Ultimately, I suspect employers who are worried about what clients may think if they were seen in anything other than a suit are little different from those who feared women in the workplace, or instituting flexi-time, or other arrangements. The concern is understandable. But that doesn't make it right, or worth perpetuating outdated practices for. They may actually be hindering sales/performance/turn-over/innovation/share-price/recruitment rather than helping it.
> Personally I prefer to see a nice shirt without a tie than a cheapo white shirt with tie. Also, I find working with my top shirt button done up is annoying.
Funny that isn't it. It seems in many places you would be breaching a dress code if dressed cleanly, smartly but not wearing a tie (or some other minor indiscretion). Meanwhile you could wear your tie upon an ill-fitting, un-ironed, suit with one trouser leg longer than the other and that would be ok.
As said earlier, I'm just glad I can wear the same things to work as I would wear out on my weekends and out of work time. No judgements are made based on my appearance (I could have tattoos, piercings, or turn up to work in a skirt - its how diligent I am in undertaking my tasks that matters). That makes me feel much better about my employer and my employment knowing that is the case. They, likewise, gets me as I am, and I give no less to my employer than I give of myself in my free time.
Ultimately, I suspect employers who are worried about what clients may think if they were seen in anything other than a suit are little different from those who feared women in the workplace, or instituting flexi-time, or other arrangements. The concern is understandable. But that doesn't make it right, or worth perpetuating outdated practices for. They may actually be hindering sales/performance/turn-over/innovation/share-price/recruitment rather than helping it.
Post edited at 17:24
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In reply to David Martin:
What amazes me in schools is that there's lots of talk about changing things so that kids question stuff more, asking "why" about anything and everything. Heads have started to even send round links to the Ken Robinson videos (Schools kill creativity) etc in a couple of schools that I've worked in. If any student I teach discovered a rule that made them do anything as pointless as wearing a tie, I'd fully expect them to question that rule and ask "but why...?" Not many do this as it has been hammered into them for so long to just sit in rows and listen to the teacher, but those of us who want to be part of creating a better education for young people are working on it. Critical thinking, problem solving and debating skills are all things desperately lacking in many young people (backep up by several major studies, including some by the CBI).
Those who replied saying "them's the rules...you must comply" are products of the outdated system that led them to think this way. Obedient workers. A tie was originally worn to hide a flabby neck on portly gents, centuries ago. I have absolutely no reason to wear one part from the fact that the rule book says I must. Most of the time I comply, but I do not expect disciplinary action for forgetting to put one on for a few minutes. The parents of the kids I teach wouldn't say it's important...they're mostly in their mid 30s and early 40s, working as diplomats or in the oil and gas sector, and they don't wear ties. I know many of them personally. The Head (my boss) is a portly "more British than Britain" type who does it because that's the way it has always been done.
It's a small thing on its own but it is fairly symptomatic of what's wrong in many schools, especially in the private sector. Victorian. Working with some of the other adults in this systemt is a nightmare. I love teaching the kids and I know from observations and from discussion with parents that I'm considered a great teacher. Nevertheless, because he's made such an issue of this single incident, I'll move on at the end of the year as I'd rather work for someone who can prioritise what's actually important for learning.
What amazes me in schools is that there's lots of talk about changing things so that kids question stuff more, asking "why" about anything and everything. Heads have started to even send round links to the Ken Robinson videos (Schools kill creativity) etc in a couple of schools that I've worked in. If any student I teach discovered a rule that made them do anything as pointless as wearing a tie, I'd fully expect them to question that rule and ask "but why...?" Not many do this as it has been hammered into them for so long to just sit in rows and listen to the teacher, but those of us who want to be part of creating a better education for young people are working on it. Critical thinking, problem solving and debating skills are all things desperately lacking in many young people (backep up by several major studies, including some by the CBI).
Those who replied saying "them's the rules...you must comply" are products of the outdated system that led them to think this way. Obedient workers. A tie was originally worn to hide a flabby neck on portly gents, centuries ago. I have absolutely no reason to wear one part from the fact that the rule book says I must. Most of the time I comply, but I do not expect disciplinary action for forgetting to put one on for a few minutes. The parents of the kids I teach wouldn't say it's important...they're mostly in their mid 30s and early 40s, working as diplomats or in the oil and gas sector, and they don't wear ties. I know many of them personally. The Head (my boss) is a portly "more British than Britain" type who does it because that's the way it has always been done.
It's a small thing on its own but it is fairly symptomatic of what's wrong in many schools, especially in the private sector. Victorian. Working with some of the other adults in this systemt is a nightmare. I love teaching the kids and I know from observations and from discussion with parents that I'm considered a great teacher. Nevertheless, because he's made such an issue of this single incident, I'll move on at the end of the year as I'd rather work for someone who can prioritise what's actually important for learning.
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In reply to 1234None:
not in the slightest, it's a Victorian or historical hang up, when the smarter someone dressed, the more highly they were thought of. However any muppet can own a 3 piece, so it's meaningless. (along school uniforms etc..)
In the Nordics a shirt and tie is very rare, some in the banking sector do it, as they kind of hold that London City boy image, some but not all senior politicians, international company bosses(CEO level) who have been condition from overseas or have clients who are stuck in the past.
Average job in an office, never. Senior / Middle management might wear jeans, t shirt/casual shirt and casual jacket to arrive at work then ditched the jacket instantly. There is no expectancy to look a particular way, or a connection that it means someone might be better at their job.
The same filters down to schools, no uniforms, no such thing as inappropriate shoes or haircuts. I love those UK pictures of kids who were banned for this and that, 99% of teachers dress as casually as the kids, coloured hair, tattoos, piercings, it teaches tolerance of being different, rather than pretending we are all the same, thousands of kids heading to school in the UK right now, all dressed up like little mini bankers!
> Does a tie matter?
not in the slightest, it's a Victorian or historical hang up, when the smarter someone dressed, the more highly they were thought of. However any muppet can own a 3 piece, so it's meaningless. (along school uniforms etc..)
In the Nordics a shirt and tie is very rare, some in the banking sector do it, as they kind of hold that London City boy image, some but not all senior politicians, international company bosses(CEO level) who have been condition from overseas or have clients who are stuck in the past.
Average job in an office, never. Senior / Middle management might wear jeans, t shirt/casual shirt and casual jacket to arrive at work then ditched the jacket instantly. There is no expectancy to look a particular way, or a connection that it means someone might be better at their job.
The same filters down to schools, no uniforms, no such thing as inappropriate shoes or haircuts. I love those UK pictures of kids who were banned for this and that, 99% of teachers dress as casually as the kids, coloured hair, tattoos, piercings, it teaches tolerance of being different, rather than pretending we are all the same, thousands of kids heading to school in the UK right now, all dressed up like little mini bankers!
Post edited at 07:05
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In reply to summo:
Here's the view of an employer.
We have had a smart casual dress code at my company for over ten years now. And profits haven't tumbled. However I find it necessary about twice a year to remind staff what the dress code is because once one staff member comes in looking scruffy (ripped or crumpled jeans and a threadbare tee shirt) and gets away with it, soon, possibly subconsciously, a greater proportion of the staff are doing it. What you then witness is that the more casual the dress, the less professional the body language. And this sends subliminal messages to colleagues and the office starts to look more and more like a common room.
I care what our customers think about us and this is conditioned by the impression our staff make on them. Our clients are mostly IT types so also used to a casual dress code but they don't expect to meet an account manager in ripped jeans and they would feel slightly insulted if that were the case.
One of the key lessons you learn as an employer, which to a certain degree you realise in management anywhere, is that companies are like families. You are the parent, and, though your employees are themselves grown up, they respond positively (as children do) to carrot and stick, freedom and responsibility delivered with guidelines and boundaries. Casual dress codes are an excellent example of the latter and I haven't found any of my employees object to being reminded of the (reasonably wide) boundaries of their freedom.
Here's the view of an employer.
We have had a smart casual dress code at my company for over ten years now. And profits haven't tumbled. However I find it necessary about twice a year to remind staff what the dress code is because once one staff member comes in looking scruffy (ripped or crumpled jeans and a threadbare tee shirt) and gets away with it, soon, possibly subconsciously, a greater proportion of the staff are doing it. What you then witness is that the more casual the dress, the less professional the body language. And this sends subliminal messages to colleagues and the office starts to look more and more like a common room.
I care what our customers think about us and this is conditioned by the impression our staff make on them. Our clients are mostly IT types so also used to a casual dress code but they don't expect to meet an account manager in ripped jeans and they would feel slightly insulted if that were the case.
One of the key lessons you learn as an employer, which to a certain degree you realise in management anywhere, is that companies are like families. You are the parent, and, though your employees are themselves grown up, they respond positively (as children do) to carrot and stick, freedom and responsibility delivered with guidelines and boundaries. Casual dress codes are an excellent example of the latter and I haven't found any of my employees object to being reminded of the (reasonably wide) boundaries of their freedom.
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In reply to BnB:
Do people really wear ripped jeans to work. I only have one pair that is ripped, and that's my DIY pair - they've also got paint stains. I'm too embarrassed to wear them to wear them to the village shop - let alone work!
Do people really wear ripped jeans to work. I only have one pair that is ripped, and that's my DIY pair - they've also got paint stains. I'm too embarrassed to wear them to wear them to the village shop - let alone work!
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In reply to BnB:
I suspect that your experience of people taking the pi$$ and allowing their behaviour to change comes from the fact that they have probably spent the previous however many years of employment and education in the disproportionally over dressed mode, a lifetime of conditioned uniformity. If people had spent their lives dressing how they wanted, they might not feel the need to go wild when they finally get chance? But, also they might not judge how the account manager dresses at all and be more interested in what they say. The shirt / tie thing is primarily a UK/USA phenomenon.
What you describe isn't the case here, whilst jeans are very very common in any office, people know there is a line to cross, dress in what they see as stylish doesn't have to mean rags, that are fit for the bin (although yes ripped jeans are in fashion, but only to a point ) but also anyone visiting the company would not prejudge someone or the company itself because a person had wild hair, tattoos, nose or lip piercings etc.. You should see the various staff at our kids school and nursery, but the kids aren't displaying any anarchist traits, perhaps it's better they do, then they'll be more sensible as adults when they get it out their system.
In your position now and UKs, it will take many generations to phase out the 'tie' concept as the schools clearly think dressing people up, makes then better.
> Here's the view of an employer.
I suspect that your experience of people taking the pi$$ and allowing their behaviour to change comes from the fact that they have probably spent the previous however many years of employment and education in the disproportionally over dressed mode, a lifetime of conditioned uniformity. If people had spent their lives dressing how they wanted, they might not feel the need to go wild when they finally get chance? But, also they might not judge how the account manager dresses at all and be more interested in what they say. The shirt / tie thing is primarily a UK/USA phenomenon.
What you describe isn't the case here, whilst jeans are very very common in any office, people know there is a line to cross, dress in what they see as stylish doesn't have to mean rags, that are fit for the bin (although yes ripped jeans are in fashion, but only to a point ) but also anyone visiting the company would not prejudge someone or the company itself because a person had wild hair, tattoos, nose or lip piercings etc.. You should see the various staff at our kids school and nursery, but the kids aren't displaying any anarchist traits, perhaps it's better they do, then they'll be more sensible as adults when they get it out their system.
In your position now and UKs, it will take many generations to phase out the 'tie' concept as the schools clearly think dressing people up, makes then better.
Post edited at 08:19
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In reply to summo:
Not my experience. The recent graduates are slightly worse than the older employees. Although who is taking their lead from who is a matter for a sociologist.
> I suspect that your experience of people taking the pi$$ and allowing their behaviour to change comes from the fact that they have probably spent the previous however many years of employment and education in the disproportionally over dressed mode, a lifetime of conditioned uniformity. If people had spent their lives dressing how they wanted, they might not feel the need to go wild when they finally get chance? But, also they might not judge how the account manager dresses at all and be more interested in what they say. The shirt / tie thing is primarily a UK/USA phenomenon.
Not my experience. The recent graduates are slightly worse than the older employees. Although who is taking their lead from who is a matter for a sociologist.
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In reply to Siward:
I certainly do, but to me 'nice' doesn't mean so traditional that is doesn't look right without a tie.
Its the shoes and shirt that really make a difference when wearing a suit anyway.
> Does nobody here appreciate a nice suit?
I certainly do, but to me 'nice' doesn't mean so traditional that is doesn't look right without a tie.
Its the shoes and shirt that really make a difference when wearing a suit anyway.
In reply to Siward:
Not me. It may look "nice", but no nicer than anything else. Downsides? Utterly impractical - difficult to wash, flimsy, non-stretch fabrics, outdated in terms of shape, fit. Mine are tailored and I still hate wearing them. My casual clothes and shoes are designed to be comfortable. My suits are designed to conform to a certain look and that means discomfort.
Not me. It may look "nice", but no nicer than anything else. Downsides? Utterly impractical - difficult to wash, flimsy, non-stretch fabrics, outdated in terms of shape, fit. Mine are tailored and I still hate wearing them. My casual clothes and shoes are designed to be comfortable. My suits are designed to conform to a certain look and that means discomfort.
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In reply to David Martin:
I had to wear a blazer when I was at school, so I cut the seems under the arms so that they were only attached over the shoulders, this enabled me to actually move in the thing!
I had to wear a blazer when I was at school, so I cut the seems under the arms so that they were only attached over the shoulders, this enabled me to actually move in the thing!
In reply to 1234None:
It's a ridiculous anachronism that is, thankfully, dying out. I'm a director in an engineering consultancy and I haven't worn a tie for years. Most days I wear jeans and a t-shirt, I might smarten up a bit when going off-site. I'm pretty sure that if I walked around the office today, I wouldn't see a tie. You might occasionally see a tie, when meeting a customer for the first time (some customers are like your boss), but once the customer's expectation (ie wether or not thay have a tie wearing culture - and these days it's usually not) has been determined, the ties will be off for the next meeting.
It's a ridiculous anachronism that is, thankfully, dying out. I'm a director in an engineering consultancy and I haven't worn a tie for years. Most days I wear jeans and a t-shirt, I might smarten up a bit when going off-site. I'm pretty sure that if I walked around the office today, I wouldn't see a tie. You might occasionally see a tie, when meeting a customer for the first time (some customers are like your boss), but once the customer's expectation (ie wether or not thay have a tie wearing culture - and these days it's usually not) has been determined, the ties will be off for the next meeting.
In reply to summo:
But it's not completely meaningless because although any muppet can dress smartly, most of them don't, even though it would improve their image in a situation when this would really help them. The ones that work this out at least progress to the next stage of the process.
> not in the slightest, it's a Victorian or historical hang up, when the smarter someone dressed, the more highly they were thought of. However any muppet can own a 3 piece, so it's meaningless. (along school uniforms etc..)
But it's not completely meaningless because although any muppet can dress smartly, most of them don't, even though it would improve their image in a situation when this would really help them. The ones that work this out at least progress to the next stage of the process.
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In reply to 1234None:
No, it's something that many parents are prepared to pay for where it isn't available in the state system locally.
I can tell you that at the sixth form my son attends, the current fashion is to dress far more smartly than the dress code requires. In itself it's a sort of subversion but the effect is impressive and what the kids are picking up is that it impresses the hell out of people.
> It's a small thing on its own but it is fairly symptomatic of what's wrong in many schools, especially in the private sector.
No, it's something that many parents are prepared to pay for where it isn't available in the state system locally.
I can tell you that at the sixth form my son attends, the current fashion is to dress far more smartly than the dress code requires. In itself it's a sort of subversion but the effect is impressive and what the kids are picking up is that it impresses the hell out of people.
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In reply to 1234None:
I work in an EU institution, today I'm dressed in jeans, shirt & sleeveless fleece top (bit cold in the office today). I dress like that maybe 75% of my time & in summer often wear shorts. The rest is either outdoors clothes for site visits (usually nature reserves) or sports jacket, shirt & non jeans for most of the rest, typically for meetings, often with senior civil servants from various ministries of the environment. I add a tie maybe 4 or 5 times a year if its a fairly formal meeting or similar, especially if I'm making a presentation or chairing. Also more likely to wear a tie if meeting senior staff from NW Europe than from southern Europe or Scandinavia. Don't own a suit & never have.
Outside work, ties are for weddings & funerals (& not all of those). I suspect my hatred of ties stems from being forced to wear one at school from age 5 to 18
I work in an EU institution, today I'm dressed in jeans, shirt & sleeveless fleece top (bit cold in the office today). I dress like that maybe 75% of my time & in summer often wear shorts. The rest is either outdoors clothes for site visits (usually nature reserves) or sports jacket, shirt & non jeans for most of the rest, typically for meetings, often with senior civil servants from various ministries of the environment. I add a tie maybe 4 or 5 times a year if its a fairly formal meeting or similar, especially if I'm making a presentation or chairing. Also more likely to wear a tie if meeting senior staff from NW Europe than from southern Europe or Scandinavia. Don't own a suit & never have.
Outside work, ties are for weddings & funerals (& not all of those). I suspect my hatred of ties stems from being forced to wear one at school from age 5 to 18
In reply to Doug:
Ironically the EU institution I visit most often is the work place that has the most overtly enforced dress code! I've seen representatives before the EPO Opposition Divisions publicly rebuked for failing to show respect for the proceedings by being incorrectly dressed and I've heard of a Board of Appeal sending a representative out to find a tie!
> I work in an EU institution, today I'm dressed in jeans, shirt & sleeveless fleece top (bit cold in the office today). I dress like that maybe 75% of my time & in summer often wear shorts.
Ironically the EU institution I visit most often is the work place that has the most overtly enforced dress code! I've seen representatives before the EPO Opposition Divisions publicly rebuked for failing to show respect for the proceedings by being incorrectly dressed and I've heard of a Board of Appeal sending a representative out to find a tie!
In reply to Dave Garnett:
You might find it only impresses a certain type of person. Dressing very smartly requires money, so I expect it impresses people who are impressed by money.
> In itself it's a sort of subversion but the effect is impressive and what the kids are picking up is that it impresses the hell out of people.
You might find it only impresses a certain type of person. Dressing very smartly requires money, so I expect it impresses people who are impressed by money.
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In reply to 1234None:
What does it say in your contract of employment on dress code and what are the expected norms in what you do at this school?
Yes a tie can matter.
What does it say in your contract of employment on dress code and what are the expected norms in what you do at this school?
Yes a tie can matter.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Every little helps if you are young and will be looking for a job some day soon. Obviously it also helps being well-spoken and having good social skills (of which being appropriately dressed is one). They are having fun, but it's an interesting social experiment. The girls love it too, which is undoubtedly part of the appeal.
Don't get me wrong, of course the way you dress is superficial. Of course, in many jobs wearing a jacket, a tie or even a shirt is inappropriate or irrelevant, and even where it is required it's not sufficient. But being unaware that the way you choose to dress has an immediate impact on the people that you meet is a mistake - don't tell me you don't judge people, at least initially, on their appearance.
> You might find it only impresses a certain type of person. Dressing very smartly requires money, so I expect it impresses people who are impressed by money.
Every little helps if you are young and will be looking for a job some day soon. Obviously it also helps being well-spoken and having good social skills (of which being appropriately dressed is one). They are having fun, but it's an interesting social experiment. The girls love it too, which is undoubtedly part of the appeal.
Don't get me wrong, of course the way you dress is superficial. Of course, in many jobs wearing a jacket, a tie or even a shirt is inappropriate or irrelevant, and even where it is required it's not sufficient. But being unaware that the way you choose to dress has an immediate impact on the people that you meet is a mistake - don't tell me you don't judge people, at least initially, on their appearance.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
I bet 99% of the time, a pair of trainers and jeans, cost more than shoes and trousers. For what the average running shoes cost, I can get a very well made pair of shoes.
> You might find it only impresses a certain type of person. Dressing very smartly requires money, so I expect it impresses people who are impressed by money.
I bet 99% of the time, a pair of trainers and jeans, cost more than shoes and trousers. For what the average running shoes cost, I can get a very well made pair of shoes.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
maybe we're more flexible because we're not in Brussels & science based? but then many of my counterparts at DG Environment dress pretty much like me (last time I was at my sister's, she was asking my partner how she put up with me being so 'scruffy', my partner's reply was that most of my colleagues (at least of those that she's met) are just as bad as me when it comes to dressing smartly)
maybe we're more flexible because we're not in Brussels & science based? but then many of my counterparts at DG Environment dress pretty much like me (last time I was at my sister's, she was asking my partner how she put up with me being so 'scruffy', my partner's reply was that most of my colleagues (at least of those that she's met) are just as bad as me when it comes to dressing smartly)
In reply to Dave Garnett:
You're really not addressing the point that this is only open to people with lots of money - or people who prioritise their spending on expensive smart clothes for their kids. It's all very well to hold it up as a great thing, but if you can only manage it if mummy and daddy work in the financial sector (etc), then what you're doing is praising and encouraging behaviours that exacerbate inequality of opportunity. I suspect you're fine with that, though.
I'm not arguing against dressing appropriately. I would expect certain people I encounter to be wearing a suit and tie, or a uniform, depending on their role. However, in the people I meet on a daily basis (patients), I don't judge those who come in smartly dressed from work in suit as any better - in any way - than those who come in wearing tracky b's. Yes, I do judge people by their appearance, but I'm far more likely to get good vibes off them if they look fit and and outdoorsy than if they're wearing a posh suit and a fancy watch. In fact, I have to admit that if there's one thing that really turns my stomach it's the Eric Pickles look - fat and rich just makes me want to be sick, I can't help it. That's just my taste though, it really doesn't have much bearing on this conversation...
> Every little helps if you are young and will be looking for a job some day soon. Obviously it also helps being well-spoken and having good social skills (of which being appropriately dressed is one). They are having fun, but it's an interesting social experiment. The girls love it too, which is undoubtedly part of the appeal.
You're really not addressing the point that this is only open to people with lots of money - or people who prioritise their spending on expensive smart clothes for their kids. It's all very well to hold it up as a great thing, but if you can only manage it if mummy and daddy work in the financial sector (etc), then what you're doing is praising and encouraging behaviours that exacerbate inequality of opportunity. I suspect you're fine with that, though.
> But being unaware that the way you choose to dress has an immediate impact on the people that you meet is a mistake - don't tell me you don't judge people, at least initially, on their appearance.
I'm not arguing against dressing appropriately. I would expect certain people I encounter to be wearing a suit and tie, or a uniform, depending on their role. However, in the people I meet on a daily basis (patients), I don't judge those who come in smartly dressed from work in suit as any better - in any way - than those who come in wearing tracky b's. Yes, I do judge people by their appearance, but I'm far more likely to get good vibes off them if they look fit and and outdoorsy than if they're wearing a posh suit and a fancy watch. In fact, I have to admit that if there's one thing that really turns my stomach it's the Eric Pickles look - fat and rich just makes me want to be sick, I can't help it. That's just my taste though, it really doesn't have much bearing on this conversation...
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In reply to summo:
If you read carefully, we're talking about being ostentatiously smart here, above and beyond the school requirements, not just wearing trousers instead of jeans.
> I bet 99% of the time, a pair of trainers and jeans, cost more than shoes and trousers. For what the average running shoes cost, I can get a very well made pair of shoes.
If you read carefully, we're talking about being ostentatiously smart here, above and beyond the school requirements, not just wearing trousers instead of jeans.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I have read carefully but thanks for checking , you can still buy some casual trainers/shoes, decent cut jeans, nice shirts for say £200-300. It will be more practical and comfortable than a suit of the same price and I suspect that a very large proportion of people work in suits for less than £300.
If you can afford a properly tailored suit great, but most can't and even then it's one item of clothing that only does one job and in no way reflects a person's professional ability, unless they were the actual tailor!!
> If you read carefully, we're talking about being ostentatiously smart here, above and beyond the school requirements, not just wearing trousers instead of jeans.
I have read carefully but thanks for checking , you can still buy some casual trainers/shoes, decent cut jeans, nice shirts for say £200-300. It will be more practical and comfortable than a suit of the same price and I suspect that a very large proportion of people work in suits for less than £300.
If you can afford a properly tailored suit great, but most can't and even then it's one item of clothing that only does one job and in no way reflects a person's professional ability, unless they were the actual tailor!!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Actually I suspect that actual cost has little to do with it, at least in this (admittedly fairly privileged) group. A lot of the casual clothes they change into to go out in the evening cost at least as much as a nice suit and shirts from Next. I bet that's generally true of what most teenagers wear.
> You're really not addressing the point that this is only open to people with lots of money - or people who prioritise their spending on expensive smart clothes for their kids. It's all very well to hold it up as a great thing, but if you can only manage it if mummy and daddy work in the financial sector (etc), then what you're doing is praising and encouraging behaviours that exacerbate inequality of opportunity. I suspect you're fine with that, though.
Actually I suspect that actual cost has little to do with it, at least in this (admittedly fairly privileged) group. A lot of the casual clothes they change into to go out in the evening cost at least as much as a nice suit and shirts from Next. I bet that's generally true of what most teenagers wear.
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In reply to BnB:
While I'm a teacher now I haven't always been. I've worked in management and at board level in industry too, and agree with your points. There's currently no flexibility where I am working...tie at all times...in 50 degree temps, in the lab etc. Daft.
While I'm a teacher now I haven't always been. I've worked in management and at board level in industry too, and agree with your points. There's currently no flexibility where I am working...tie at all times...in 50 degree temps, in the lab etc. Daft.
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In reply to neilh:
Nothing in any contract I've ever signed. That's not the point though, really. I've said before I'm not objecting to wearing one...just wondering what people think about this overreaction to not wearing one on the odd occasion.
Why? While I put one on in the mornings for a quiet life, I've yet to hear a solid reason why it's important.
> What does it say in your contract of employment on dress code and what are the expected norms in what you do at this school?
Nothing in any contract I've ever signed. That's not the point though, really. I've said before I'm not objecting to wearing one...just wondering what people think about this overreaction to not wearing one on the odd occasion.
> Yes a tie can matter.
Why? While I put one on in the mornings for a quiet life, I've yet to hear a solid reason why it's important.
In reply to 1234None:
Could you get away with a clip on?
(Apologise if this has already been suggested and discussed)
Could you get away with a clip on?
(Apologise if this has already been suggested and discussed)
In reply to 1234None:
It's important because you get a quiet life when you put one on.
> ......Why? While I put one on in the mornings for a quiet life, I've yet to hear a solid reason why it's important.
It's important because you get a quiet life when you put one on.
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In reply to summo:
Ummm. Whilst I agree trainers and jeans can be quite expensive, my work shoes and suit cost quite a few multiples more. To be honest, if I didn't dress "up" in a suit, I wouldn't want to bother. I've worn a suit pretty much all the time (other than dress down Fridays) all my working life (almost 30 years now god help me). I like the difference between work dress and casual although I do admit to liking dress down Fridays to mark the end of the week, encourage everyone to head off sharp'ish and go home, to the pub or whatever they want to do. I have also oberved that dressing down leads to some odd effects e.g. some dress like they're on a night out (maybe simply hard to choose what to wear and opt for too smart casual), and people will slowly start to push the boundaries (I've seen mini skirts and ripped jeans in large international firms) and need reminding what is appropriate for work. As said above, most don't mind being reminded about boundaries.
As said, I quite like the formality of suits and ties at work. Puts me in the right mindset (think Steve Coogan looking in the mirror shouting "you're a tiger"), can't go too wrong and feel you've made a mistake, and most clients appreciate it I think. I've only had one client ask me to dress down when I go to see him (at home) and that's fine by me. Most of my clients are either very wealthy and/or own sizeable businesses. Outside of work I'm a bit of a slob, still wearing jeans and t shirts at an embarassing age.
As context, worked at v large accountancy/legal practices for much of my career, but have been a partner in a somewhat smaller business for quite a while now.
I think it's all down to choices - if you want to work in my line of work, I'm afraid you wouldn't get very far if you generally went around too casually dressed. So either accept that when meeting clients and the outside world you will dress appropriately or choose to do something else. However, things have definitely eased up during my career. We were laughing the other night reminding ourselves of the people who used to even wear bow ties to work but all that has gone. I do sometimes wear a shirt and no tie but somehow it doesn't feel right !
Now, who likes black tie....?
> I bet 99% of the time, a pair of trainers and jeans, cost more than shoes and trousers.
Ummm. Whilst I agree trainers and jeans can be quite expensive, my work shoes and suit cost quite a few multiples more. To be honest, if I didn't dress "up" in a suit, I wouldn't want to bother. I've worn a suit pretty much all the time (other than dress down Fridays) all my working life (almost 30 years now god help me). I like the difference between work dress and casual although I do admit to liking dress down Fridays to mark the end of the week, encourage everyone to head off sharp'ish and go home, to the pub or whatever they want to do. I have also oberved that dressing down leads to some odd effects e.g. some dress like they're on a night out (maybe simply hard to choose what to wear and opt for too smart casual), and people will slowly start to push the boundaries (I've seen mini skirts and ripped jeans in large international firms) and need reminding what is appropriate for work. As said above, most don't mind being reminded about boundaries.
As said, I quite like the formality of suits and ties at work. Puts me in the right mindset (think Steve Coogan looking in the mirror shouting "you're a tiger"), can't go too wrong and feel you've made a mistake, and most clients appreciate it I think. I've only had one client ask me to dress down when I go to see him (at home) and that's fine by me. Most of my clients are either very wealthy and/or own sizeable businesses. Outside of work I'm a bit of a slob, still wearing jeans and t shirts at an embarassing age.
As context, worked at v large accountancy/legal practices for much of my career, but have been a partner in a somewhat smaller business for quite a while now.
I think it's all down to choices - if you want to work in my line of work, I'm afraid you wouldn't get very far if you generally went around too casually dressed. So either accept that when meeting clients and the outside world you will dress appropriately or choose to do something else. However, things have definitely eased up during my career. We were laughing the other night reminding ourselves of the people who used to even wear bow ties to work but all that has gone. I do sometimes wear a shirt and no tie but somehow it doesn't feel right !
Now, who likes black tie....?
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In reply to Skyfall:
I beg to differ on the not getting very far in your career. My uncle worked in accountancy, company turnaround man for Barclays in the early years, then spent the last 30 years on various directorships and as a mentor for institute of directors for perhaps the last 15. He never wears a tie and was reknowned for it. He was employed for his skills and it clearly worked.
I agree though it personal choice, if work better than fine, but not everyone does so you can't really judge others ability entirely by attire.
You can dress smartly in casual clothes or you can look like a scruff in shirt & jacket, ie Corbyn style!
I beg to differ on the not getting very far in your career. My uncle worked in accountancy, company turnaround man for Barclays in the early years, then spent the last 30 years on various directorships and as a mentor for institute of directors for perhaps the last 15. He never wears a tie and was reknowned for it. He was employed for his skills and it clearly worked.
I agree though it personal choice, if work better than fine, but not everyone does so you can't really judge others ability entirely by attire.
You can dress smartly in casual clothes or you can look like a scruff in shirt & jacket, ie Corbyn style!
Post edited at 07:53
In reply to summo:
I referred to being "too casually dressed". I don't think going tie less nowadays is too casual. Many people do it. 30 years ago, I'm surprised but it wouldn't have gone down at all well where I worked.
I referred to being "too casually dressed". I don't think going tie less nowadays is too casual. Many people do it. 30 years ago, I'm surprised but it wouldn't have gone down at all well where I worked.
In reply to 1234None:
I think all of the responses show that it basically comes down to expectations both from colleges and "customers". I think everyone agrees that what you are wearing doesn't have much bearing on you ability to do a job (excluding physical limitations of clothing). However unfortunately people do make judgement about you ability instantly on your appearance and that can take some time to get over.
I don't think your employer has dealt with in a sensible way and a quick word would have been better. However ultimately it is expected by college and parents of students (customers) that you are well turned out and in lots of cases this includes a tie.
I think all of the responses show that it basically comes down to expectations both from colleges and "customers". I think everyone agrees that what you are wearing doesn't have much bearing on you ability to do a job (excluding physical limitations of clothing). However unfortunately people do make judgement about you ability instantly on your appearance and that can take some time to get over.
I don't think your employer has dealt with in a sensible way and a quick word would have been better. However ultimately it is expected by college and parents of students (customers) that you are well turned out and in lots of cases this includes a tie.
In reply to Andy DB:
Not entirely, I love wearing suits.
And don't I enjoy doing so?
> I think all of the responses show that it basically comes down to expectations both from colleges and "customers".
Not entirely, I love wearing suits.
> However unfortunately people do make judgement about you ability instantly on your appearance and that can take some time to get over.
And don't I enjoy doing so?
In reply to summo:
Certainly strong evidence that your uncle was exceptionally good at his job. The professions are quite accepting of sartorial eccentricity when exhibited by the very gifted.
Certainly strong evidence that your uncle was exceptionally good at his job. The professions are quite accepting of sartorial eccentricity when exhibited by the very gifted.
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In reply to Andy DB:
>However ultimately it is expected by college and parents of students (customers) that you are well turned out and in lots of cases this includes a tie.
I see your point, but is it expected by OUR customers? I doubt it, to be honest. I know a very large number of the parents of the kids I teach and I really don't reckon they'd expect me to wear a tie at all. It's expected purely because the guy currently running the place is a "more British than Britain" gent of a certain age. He's probably got where he is by never questioning or challenging the status quo (like so many SLT members in schools) and expects all others to be the same. As I said above, for a quiet life I put a tie on but I don't think the requirement for ties has got anything to do with customer expectations. As a middle school science teacher I'm frequently out running about in the playground, or role playing science concepts etc in the classroom. I think if you'd seen how the teaching is done you'd see quite how silly the requirement to wear a tie at all times is. Yes, for important meetings or formal occasions, but -to me - not for day to day teaching.
The tie wearing issue is a tiny thing in its own right. However, my boss's daft overreaction (it's obviously not a tiny issue to him!) in this instance and the tie wearing rule that has no real basis apart from "that's the way it's always been done" are sadly symptomatic of bigger things that are wrong where I work.
>However ultimately it is expected by college and parents of students (customers) that you are well turned out and in lots of cases this includes a tie.
I see your point, but is it expected by OUR customers? I doubt it, to be honest. I know a very large number of the parents of the kids I teach and I really don't reckon they'd expect me to wear a tie at all. It's expected purely because the guy currently running the place is a "more British than Britain" gent of a certain age. He's probably got where he is by never questioning or challenging the status quo (like so many SLT members in schools) and expects all others to be the same. As I said above, for a quiet life I put a tie on but I don't think the requirement for ties has got anything to do with customer expectations. As a middle school science teacher I'm frequently out running about in the playground, or role playing science concepts etc in the classroom. I think if you'd seen how the teaching is done you'd see quite how silly the requirement to wear a tie at all times is. Yes, for important meetings or formal occasions, but -to me - not for day to day teaching.
The tie wearing issue is a tiny thing in its own right. However, my boss's daft overreaction (it's obviously not a tiny issue to him!) in this instance and the tie wearing rule that has no real basis apart from "that's the way it's always been done" are sadly symptomatic of bigger things that are wrong where I work.
In reply to 1234None:
I think it is that people don't like surprise in what someone is wearing. Ultimately no your "customers" don't expect a tie but probably do expect you to not turn up looking you slept in the gutter and had to wipe the vomit off your ripped t-shirt. Your boss is probably just rather old school and of the opinion that smart means tie. Thankfully my employer takes a fairly sensible view that most adults know how to dress themselves for most situations. So if I'm meeting clients I will put on a suit (tie don't seem to be required in my industry + I like to think I'm young and cool enough to pull of suit and no tie) but if I have a day in the office jeans and a casual shirt is fine. This occasionally backfires when my my boss springs a meeting on me in the morning and required an emergency shirt purchase. We also usually get the email after the first few hot days in summer reminding people that although there is no dress code somethings aren't really appropriate for the office and might make their college uncomfortable.
I think it is that people don't like surprise in what someone is wearing. Ultimately no your "customers" don't expect a tie but probably do expect you to not turn up looking you slept in the gutter and had to wipe the vomit off your ripped t-shirt. Your boss is probably just rather old school and of the opinion that smart means tie. Thankfully my employer takes a fairly sensible view that most adults know how to dress themselves for most situations. So if I'm meeting clients I will put on a suit (tie don't seem to be required in my industry + I like to think I'm young and cool enough to pull of suit and no tie) but if I have a day in the office jeans and a casual shirt is fine. This occasionally backfires when my my boss springs a meeting on me in the morning and required an emergency shirt purchase. We also usually get the email after the first few hot days in summer reminding people that although there is no dress code somethings aren't really appropriate for the office and might make their college uncomfortable.
In reply to BnB:
Yes, once you have a reputation you can get away with pretty much anything if you are good enough. When you are starting out you might need all the help you can get.
> Certainly strong evidence that your uncle was exceptionally good at his job. The professions are quite accepting of sartorial eccentricity when exhibited by the very gifted.
Yes, once you have a reputation you can get away with pretty much anything if you are good enough. When you are starting out you might need all the help you can get.
1
In reply to 1234None:
Your experience reminds me very much of a time in the 90s, as PCs were making it on to the desktop, when my boss threatened to fire me for typing my own reports when "that's what the typing pool is for". Much as I tried to impress upon him that my handwriting the report took as long for me to do as it did for me to type, and that he could save himself money by doing away with my secretary (sorry Sarah), he was initially having none of it. He simply couldn't get his head around the new way of working.
In the end, The staff wore him down by being more productive with our workflow while embracing new channels and he became an enthusiastic adopter of technologies which gave us a head start on our competitors and made him very wealthy.
So if you want to convert your boss, show him the money. But it does appear that he associates your staff uniform with an ability to command high fees for your services. So it's a challenge. Do your clients want to see you in a tie? That's the heart of the matter. If the tie conveys an outmoded ethos then perhaps it threatens the school's income? If it's what your clients expect, then wear it!!
Your experience reminds me very much of a time in the 90s, as PCs were making it on to the desktop, when my boss threatened to fire me for typing my own reports when "that's what the typing pool is for". Much as I tried to impress upon him that my handwriting the report took as long for me to do as it did for me to type, and that he could save himself money by doing away with my secretary (sorry Sarah), he was initially having none of it. He simply couldn't get his head around the new way of working.
In the end, The staff wore him down by being more productive with our workflow while embracing new channels and he became an enthusiastic adopter of technologies which gave us a head start on our competitors and made him very wealthy.
So if you want to convert your boss, show him the money. But it does appear that he associates your staff uniform with an ability to command high fees for your services. So it's a challenge. Do your clients want to see you in a tie? That's the heart of the matter. If the tie conveys an outmoded ethos then perhaps it threatens the school's income? If it's what your clients expect, then wear it!!
2
In reply to BnB:
Reminds me of a job I had where I typed my letters, reports etc and then a typist retyped them, this was justified by claiming that only an official typist could get the formatting correct (although the real reason was the union trying to protect jobs). I didn't stay there long.
Reminds me of a job I had where I typed my letters, reports etc and then a typist retyped them, this was justified by claiming that only an official typist could get the formatting correct (although the real reason was the union trying to protect jobs). I didn't stay there long.
In reply to BnB:
I guess the mission here would be to point to the Mark Zuckerbergs and Richard Bransons, note that these are who our students are aspiring to emulate (thereby becoming wealthy alumni who would be only too happy to donate to the school in later life, especially to those teachers who represent that image) and ...oh, wait...gosh, heavens forbid, they are not wearing ties! Maybe Mr. Principle, there is something in that?
I guess the mission here would be to point to the Mark Zuckerbergs and Richard Bransons, note that these are who our students are aspiring to emulate (thereby becoming wealthy alumni who would be only too happy to donate to the school in later life, especially to those teachers who represent that image) and ...oh, wait...gosh, heavens forbid, they are not wearing ties! Maybe Mr. Principle, there is something in that?
1
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