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Wednesday eve, 8.30pm, have been out and about, and the local roads in North Lakes are much worse than they were near the peak of difficulties on Saturday evening (Dec. 5th). Looks like a couple of hours high winds and heavy rain still to come. Not a good follow-up to Saturday's difficulties.
DC
DC
2
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Hi Dave.
Wet and very Windy in south lakes but roads up as far as Ambleside seem unproblematic. Hope things get sorted up there soon, look after yourself.
Oli
Hi Dave.
Wet and very Windy in south lakes but roads up as far as Ambleside seem unproblematic. Hope things get sorted up there soon, look after yourself.
Oli
1
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
I read somewhere that it could be several weeks before the A591 between Keswick and Grasmere will be re opened. It was reopened just north of Kendal earlier this week.
I read somewhere that it could be several weeks before the A591 between Keswick and Grasmere will be re opened. It was reopened just north of Kendal earlier this week.
In reply to icnoble:
given winter will beginning soon and that major civil works will be needed just to reestablish the path the road used to take till it fell away I think that might be optimistic - Months has been quoted locally, but I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong.
given winter will beginning soon and that major civil works will be needed just to reestablish the path the road used to take till it fell away I think that might be optimistic - Months has been quoted locally, but I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong.
1
In reply to 3leggeddog:
Yes - but which one? As one of the other posters commented there will be some major civils works required to reinstate that section of road, and I can't see the 'Friends' of the lake district letting the sort of concrete structures that will be required getting built without a fight!
There is now a major opportunity to remove a notorious bottleneck on the North side of Dunmail Raise by straightening and re-grading the road.
> Tuesday
Yes - but which one? As one of the other posters commented there will be some major civils works required to reinstate that section of road, and I can't see the 'Friends' of the lake district letting the sort of concrete structures that will be required getting built without a fight!
There is now a major opportunity to remove a notorious bottleneck on the North side of Dunmail Raise by straightening and re-grading the road.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Correction: They are the "Fiends" of the Lake District.
DC
> Yes - but which one? As one of the other posters commented there will be some major civils works required to reinstate that section of road, and I can't see the 'Friends' of the lake district letting the sort of concrete structures that will be required getting built without a fight!
Correction: They are the "Fiends" of the Lake District.
DC
1
1
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Easter Tuesday, according to the information Tim Farron has
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/14137098.STORM_DESMOND__Farron_...
> > Tuesday
> Yes - but which one?
> Yes - but which one?
Easter Tuesday, according to the information Tim Farron has
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/14137098.STORM_DESMOND__Farron_...
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
In breaking news, ITV national news have just shown a map showing 'River Ullswater' flowing through Glenridding.
Must have been upgraded from Glenridding Beck.
In breaking news, ITV national news have just shown a map showing 'River Ullswater' flowing through Glenridding.
Must have been upgraded from Glenridding Beck.
1
In reply to Ridge:
Channel 5 have now used "the River Beck in Glenridding"
> In breaking news, ITV national news have just shown a map showing 'River Ullswater' flowing through Glenridding.
Channel 5 have now used "the River Beck in Glenridding"
1
In reply to Ridge:
It is an unfortunate fact of nature that parts of Glenridding are built on a delta, quite a big one, in fact no doubt in about 5000 years or less it will cut the lake in half, as has happened in many other lakes. That delta is fed by Glenridding Beck and has been since the last glaciation. The sedimentation into this delta has probably been catastrophic with major depositional episodes and progradation taking place over seconds and minutes very rapidly during recent geological time. Lake District slopes drain rapidly and vertically, meanders are short-circuited, flood water and becks in spate travel straight to the destination, nothing can stop the flow. Many subaerial fan-deltas and alluvial fans in the Lake District can be seen on Google Earth or OS maps, and the volume of material that is deposited almost instantaneously is quite frightening. That's how the process works, then in between - nothing happens, hence varves in the lake sediments showing seasonal cycles. As my climbing engineer water-expert friend said to me this week: Yes, if you f__k with nature, it will f__k with you - and some more on top. Don't be so arrogant that you think you can control nature. Great sympathy for those affected, but we need to get realistic and clean out the rivers and channels much deeper as they were cleaned out during the post-war era. The wildlife will cope. The water has to go somewhere - and if the channel has no capacity it will simply come over the sides. Some of the old timers and farmers in this area know much better than the greens, DEFRA, English Nature or the Environmental Agency about how to properly manage the Lake District.
It is an unfortunate fact of nature that parts of Glenridding are built on a delta, quite a big one, in fact no doubt in about 5000 years or less it will cut the lake in half, as has happened in many other lakes. That delta is fed by Glenridding Beck and has been since the last glaciation. The sedimentation into this delta has probably been catastrophic with major depositional episodes and progradation taking place over seconds and minutes very rapidly during recent geological time. Lake District slopes drain rapidly and vertically, meanders are short-circuited, flood water and becks in spate travel straight to the destination, nothing can stop the flow. Many subaerial fan-deltas and alluvial fans in the Lake District can be seen on Google Earth or OS maps, and the volume of material that is deposited almost instantaneously is quite frightening. That's how the process works, then in between - nothing happens, hence varves in the lake sediments showing seasonal cycles. As my climbing engineer water-expert friend said to me this week: Yes, if you f__k with nature, it will f__k with you - and some more on top. Don't be so arrogant that you think you can control nature. Great sympathy for those affected, but we need to get realistic and clean out the rivers and channels much deeper as they were cleaned out during the post-war era. The wildlife will cope. The water has to go somewhere - and if the channel has no capacity it will simply come over the sides. Some of the old timers and farmers in this area know much better than the greens, DEFRA, English Nature or the Environmental Agency about how to properly manage the Lake District.
5
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In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Is the large scale planting of trees one of the long term answers? This has been suggested by several environment experts.
Is the large scale planting of trees one of the long term answers? This has been suggested by several environment experts.
In reply to icnoble:
DC
> Is the large scale planting of trees one of the long term answers? This has been suggested by several environment experts.
To coin a phrase it doesn't hold water. The Thirlmere debris flows were not stopped by trees. All the bridges that failed in the Lakes (Keswick, Cockermouth, Pooley and elsewhere) were acting as dams and suffered unsustainable lateral pressure because of the build-up of debris, debris consisting of - yes - trees etc. Landslides, debris flows, they all take trees with them. In fact the one characteristic of flooded terrain in the aftermath is the preponderance of tree debris. Don't talk to me about environmental experts. Too many computer models, too many degrees, too many people, too much crap software, not enough experience and local knowledge of how to solve problems. Twenty-odd quangos run the Lake District and it is a disaster zone worse than 50 years ago. The Romans understood.DC
Post edited at 22:31
2
10
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Isn't the argument that trees are very good at getting water into the ground, reducing run-off. So if you plant more trees you have less water running around, and you don't have to worry about debris being washed away in the first place?
Isn't the argument that trees are very good at getting water into the ground, reducing run-off. So if you plant more trees you have less water running around, and you don't have to worry about debris being washed away in the first place?
6
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
I think it's very much terrain specific. If you look at Genridding it's a small catchment with a very short steep run from Red Tarn or Kepple Cove into the village. I can't see trees doing much to mitigate that scenario.
I think it's very much terrain specific. If you look at Genridding it's a small catchment with a very short steep run from Red Tarn or Kepple Cove into the village. I can't see trees doing much to mitigate that scenario.
1
In reply to Ridge:
DC
> I think it's very much terrain specific. If you look at Genridding it's a small catchment with a very short steep run from Red Tarn or Kepple Cove into the village. I can't see trees doing much to mitigate that scenario.
I agree, and it could be argued that the more trees adjacent to water courses simply creates more debris that dams more bridges resulting in the bridges failing. When the water table is at ground level and the ground is water-logged as it has been for many weeks, presence of trees may have zero impact, in fact makes it more likely they fall over and wash away. If you look at the Daily Mail photo of the Pooley Bridge boat landing - the flooding there has brought down a huge number of large trees for exactly that reason.DC
1
1
In reply to icnoble:
I think it would help, especially if we were to re-introduce beavers.
Regarding roads around the Lakes, Staveley and Burneside have been effectively cut in half due to 3 bridges being condemned.
> Is the large scale planting of trees one of the long term answers? This has been suggested by several environment experts.
I think it would help, especially if we were to re-introduce beavers.
Regarding roads around the Lakes, Staveley and Burneside have been effectively cut in half due to 3 bridges being condemned.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
So Dave.
More trees but cut down trees that could get washed into a river.
For water absorption and retention trees are undoubtedly an advantage.
The water off the high fells needs retarding before it gets into the rivers at mid and low level., That's where boggy areas come in. Always amazed how relatively constant the rivers are in the Cairngorms compared to the Lakes.
A lot more factors to consider of course and some the boffins do not know about yet, but as you imply better sorted by scientific management than politics.
So Dave.
More trees but cut down trees that could get washed into a river.
For water absorption and retention trees are undoubtedly an advantage.
The water off the high fells needs retarding before it gets into the rivers at mid and low level., That's where boggy areas come in. Always amazed how relatively constant the rivers are in the Cairngorms compared to the Lakes.
A lot more factors to consider of course and some the boffins do not know about yet, but as you imply better sorted by scientific management than politics.
6
In reply to Rick Graham:
DC
> More trees but cut down trees that could get washed into a river.
Rick, agree in part (nothing to do with cutting), retention is good if it works, my mate G would agree with that and he is the World expert. Step forward the engineers with local knowledge!!DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
You are quite right that what has happened in Glenridding is a result of continuing enormous geologic forces and how people are arrogant to think they can control these forces. Cleaning out the rivers (dredging) is an example of a futile activity which works against those forces whereas proper land use management- including tree planting - is a way you can work with nature.
It seems that a lot of that debris came from a landslide on Catstycam which maybe could have been less severe with a land use strategy that identifies slopes at risk of failure and uses vegetation cover to stabilise them (roots to bind the soil structure, leaves and branches take the impact of raindrops rather than the bare earth or the close cropped grass). All the dredging alternative does is create a small amount of space that the material from the landslides can occupy and afterwards it needs dredged again and again.
I don't think either alternative, or even both alternatives together, would have prevented what happened because of the scale of this rain event.
You are quite right that what has happened in Glenridding is a result of continuing enormous geologic forces and how people are arrogant to think they can control these forces. Cleaning out the rivers (dredging) is an example of a futile activity which works against those forces whereas proper land use management- including tree planting - is a way you can work with nature.
It seems that a lot of that debris came from a landslide on Catstycam which maybe could have been less severe with a land use strategy that identifies slopes at risk of failure and uses vegetation cover to stabilise them (roots to bind the soil structure, leaves and branches take the impact of raindrops rather than the bare earth or the close cropped grass). All the dredging alternative does is create a small amount of space that the material from the landslides can occupy and afterwards it needs dredged again and again.
I don't think either alternative, or even both alternatives together, would have prevented what happened because of the scale of this rain event.
3
In reply to Rick Graham:
Not to belittle the much more important human hardship inflicted on the Lakes right now, but...
has North Crag Eliminate been washed way yet?
Not to belittle the much more important human hardship inflicted on the Lakes right now, but...
has North Crag Eliminate been washed way yet?
Post edited at 12:47
1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Don't know. live on other side of t'raise.
I am sure we will hear about it when it happens.
I reckon in March. Which year is harder to predict.
> has North Crag Eliminate been washed way yet?
Don't know. live on other side of t'raise.
I am sure we will hear about it when it happens.
I reckon in March. Which year is harder to predict.
1
In reply to icnoble:
Apparently the Royal Engineers have started to play on the road and they know how to build a thing or two. Suspect there will be a route through within a week.
Apparently the Royal Engineers have started to play on the road and they know how to build a thing or two. Suspect there will be a route through within a week.
2
In reply to didntcomelast:
but will it be for cars travelling at 50-60mph or landrovers and other transport complete with bridging plates, or tracked vehicles?
but will it be for cars travelling at 50-60mph or landrovers and other transport complete with bridging plates, or tracked vehicles?
In reply to wercat:
Does anyone have any real info on this?
It must be a totally awful for the proper locals (we visitors always have time to drive round, despite what we might think). Given enough of a will it should be possible to do something pretty quickly you would think? Nope I am not a civil engineer but I have worked on major construction projects for 30+ years and so with the right kit....attitude....budget.... you would hope that a route for locals who's businesses or livelihoods rely on this can be made soon?
Does anyone have any real info on this?
It must be a totally awful for the proper locals (we visitors always have time to drive round, despite what we might think). Given enough of a will it should be possible to do something pretty quickly you would think? Nope I am not a civil engineer but I have worked on major construction projects for 30+ years and so with the right kit....attitude....budget.... you would hope that a route for locals who's businesses or livelihoods rely on this can be made soon?
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Dave,
Over the last couple of years we've pretty much shared the same view about winter climbing conditions in the Lakes but this time, after a promising start about fluvial dynamics, I have to disagree with a lot of what you say in your first two emails.
I am one of your so called experts working for one of the 20 odd disastrous quangos in the Lake District, with a professional career of 20 years and a Ph.D in fluvial geomorphology and landscape development. If only I'd realised 25 years ago that it would equip me with no worthwhile knowledge, I would have gone off and done something else instead. I have to say I get pretty fed up with the castigation of 'so called experts' in times like these. I wonder how a farmer would like it if I started telling them they know shit about what they do and I know best...Can I ask what you do for living? I'd like to slag you off too
The bottom line is that none of the three main forms of flood defence - slowing the flow in upland catchments, river naturalisation in middle catchments and dredging in low lying areas - would have combatted the volume of rainfall we got on Saturday. You're right, the trees didn't stop damage at Thirlmere but neither did dredging at Glenridding Beck - it is canalised right up to Greenside Farm campsite so all it did was push the water faster down to Glenridding to wreak its havoc. The River Kent has a very natural form, with very little straightening or canalisation until Staveley but that didn't stop it flooding. Neither did the deepening of the bed of the Kent in Kendal a few decades ago stop the town from flooding this time.
And that's the point - all three have their merits - and we do need a whole catchment approach to flood management - but it won't be right in every case and it won't prevent flooding 100%.
Aye,
Davie
Dave,
Over the last couple of years we've pretty much shared the same view about winter climbing conditions in the Lakes but this time, after a promising start about fluvial dynamics, I have to disagree with a lot of what you say in your first two emails.
I am one of your so called experts working for one of the 20 odd disastrous quangos in the Lake District, with a professional career of 20 years and a Ph.D in fluvial geomorphology and landscape development. If only I'd realised 25 years ago that it would equip me with no worthwhile knowledge, I would have gone off and done something else instead. I have to say I get pretty fed up with the castigation of 'so called experts' in times like these. I wonder how a farmer would like it if I started telling them they know shit about what they do and I know best...Can I ask what you do for living? I'd like to slag you off too
The bottom line is that none of the three main forms of flood defence - slowing the flow in upland catchments, river naturalisation in middle catchments and dredging in low lying areas - would have combatted the volume of rainfall we got on Saturday. You're right, the trees didn't stop damage at Thirlmere but neither did dredging at Glenridding Beck - it is canalised right up to Greenside Farm campsite so all it did was push the water faster down to Glenridding to wreak its havoc. The River Kent has a very natural form, with very little straightening or canalisation until Staveley but that didn't stop it flooding. Neither did the deepening of the bed of the Kent in Kendal a few decades ago stop the town from flooding this time.
And that's the point - all three have their merits - and we do need a whole catchment approach to flood management - but it won't be right in every case and it won't prevent flooding 100%.
Aye,
Davie
10
In reply to DR:
Davie,
Your analysis in the last paragraph is sensible, and on December 5th, proximity to water courses, deltas and flood plains or the lake was going to result in devastation and agree that nothing can create 100% protection. The Borrowdale floods of 1963 were the same, although not it seems due to "global warming". The run-off is vertical and immediate in those situations. Meanders will always be short-circuited in high flow regimes I agree - that is the first geography lesson we all learn (ox-bows).
Coming back to the experts issue - I don't wish to diminish your expertise and experience, but when the Lake District was made a National Park in about 1953, it was very special. Up to that point the area had not been managed by quangos or experts, it had been managed by local landowners and farmers, rural district councils with small numbers of local people who had the experience and local knowledge to know what they were doing, and no computers. When this issue is now discussed in all the pubs and Parish meetings locally, there is a general feeling that the past management of the Lake District was much more effective than the current one. I am simply repeating here what gets said very frequently in my experience whenever this topic comes up. The old-timers and some less old do talk about dredging the rivers amongst other things. If you are going to have a cross-sectional prism of water of an excess volume or at the high end of the scale, it might as well be located topographically low rather than topographically high and overbank with canalised over-heightened defences.
When I was a kid I spent much time playing in a local river, it was deep, it was dredged, it had clear water, full of wildlife and salmon, there were protective banks, it was not canalised, it never flooded overbank. Now in Summer the channel is full of debris, so inevitably in winter the water will come over the sides under flood conditions.
Actually a lot of the old-timers DID know what they were doing because they had a timeless view of the landscape that they were intimately connected to. Same with local lengthsmen on all the roads - the drains, streams, culverts and gutters were always kept in good order. It was a very good working system but not everyone subscribes to the ethos "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
Another issue - I believe there should be a disconnection between national, idealistic, aspirational environmental policies (for whatever justifications being used at the time, e.g. Carbon, wildlife, diversity, job creation) and local land and landscape management. The Lake District should be managed in a light-touch appropriate way that is fit-for-purpose rather than a "save the planet dogma" because many would argue it is not working. And we still do not know what changes the climate no matter what was said in Paris or anywhere else. Big topic, not enough time to discuss here.
Keep up the good work, the system may be wrong in the locals views but the people are still well-intentioned.
Davie,
Your analysis in the last paragraph is sensible, and on December 5th, proximity to water courses, deltas and flood plains or the lake was going to result in devastation and agree that nothing can create 100% protection. The Borrowdale floods of 1963 were the same, although not it seems due to "global warming". The run-off is vertical and immediate in those situations. Meanders will always be short-circuited in high flow regimes I agree - that is the first geography lesson we all learn (ox-bows).
Coming back to the experts issue - I don't wish to diminish your expertise and experience, but when the Lake District was made a National Park in about 1953, it was very special. Up to that point the area had not been managed by quangos or experts, it had been managed by local landowners and farmers, rural district councils with small numbers of local people who had the experience and local knowledge to know what they were doing, and no computers. When this issue is now discussed in all the pubs and Parish meetings locally, there is a general feeling that the past management of the Lake District was much more effective than the current one. I am simply repeating here what gets said very frequently in my experience whenever this topic comes up. The old-timers and some less old do talk about dredging the rivers amongst other things. If you are going to have a cross-sectional prism of water of an excess volume or at the high end of the scale, it might as well be located topographically low rather than topographically high and overbank with canalised over-heightened defences.
When I was a kid I spent much time playing in a local river, it was deep, it was dredged, it had clear water, full of wildlife and salmon, there were protective banks, it was not canalised, it never flooded overbank. Now in Summer the channel is full of debris, so inevitably in winter the water will come over the sides under flood conditions.
Actually a lot of the old-timers DID know what they were doing because they had a timeless view of the landscape that they were intimately connected to. Same with local lengthsmen on all the roads - the drains, streams, culverts and gutters were always kept in good order. It was a very good working system but not everyone subscribes to the ethos "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
Another issue - I believe there should be a disconnection between national, idealistic, aspirational environmental policies (for whatever justifications being used at the time, e.g. Carbon, wildlife, diversity, job creation) and local land and landscape management. The Lake District should be managed in a light-touch appropriate way that is fit-for-purpose rather than a "save the planet dogma" because many would argue it is not working. And we still do not know what changes the climate no matter what was said in Paris or anywhere else. Big topic, not enough time to discuss here.
Keep up the good work, the system may be wrong in the locals views but the people are still well-intentioned.
2
1
In reply to Wainers44:
real information today, Appleby Bridge reopened at last, according to the kids. People have been having to take a half hour bus journey to get to the shops as the road bridge and the footbridge were out of action. Still difficult to get in and out of Penrith as Eamont Bridge/A6 closed so all traffic from S of the A66 is channelled through a couple of windy farm lanes to join a slow moving queue towards the A66/A6 roundabout. Pooley Bridge down, though today reported on BBC LR that road to Glenridding has opened at last. Reported that the Army has been clearing the Thirlmere road so that the council will soon be able to assess the damage to the Dunmail Raise road, though the council official on the Radio said it might be Easter before it is repaired.
That's just our end of things - it is ruddy difficult getting about but not a hundredth as bad as as it is for the folk who've been flooded out
real information today, Appleby Bridge reopened at last, according to the kids. People have been having to take a half hour bus journey to get to the shops as the road bridge and the footbridge were out of action. Still difficult to get in and out of Penrith as Eamont Bridge/A6 closed so all traffic from S of the A66 is channelled through a couple of windy farm lanes to join a slow moving queue towards the A66/A6 roundabout. Pooley Bridge down, though today reported on BBC LR that road to Glenridding has opened at last. Reported that the Army has been clearing the Thirlmere road so that the council will soon be able to assess the damage to the Dunmail Raise road, though the council official on the Radio said it might be Easter before it is repaired.
That's just our end of things - it is ruddy difficult getting about but not a hundredth as bad as as it is for the folk who've been flooded out
In reply to wercat:
Different situation I know, but I grew up in a village renowned for its annual dose of flooding. In a good year only the roads and fields went under. Reasonably often a few of the houses suffered too. Every few years the flooding was really bad and loads of houses were flooded right out.
It's odd, it became the norm. Although the water only ever came within 3 ft of our front door we were lucky and never actually saw water in the house, only the garden and garage went under. Even so after a wet night I recall the first look outside being about seeing how far the "tide" had come (not real tide) and whether the main road was flooded, as that would mean that all the minor roads were well under.
One morning we were treated to the sight of two cops with trousers rolled up, pushing the police car out of the flood!
It's still shocking for anyone to see their home ruined and I hope those affected are given every support to get things sorted ASAP.
Different situation I know, but I grew up in a village renowned for its annual dose of flooding. In a good year only the roads and fields went under. Reasonably often a few of the houses suffered too. Every few years the flooding was really bad and loads of houses were flooded right out.
It's odd, it became the norm. Although the water only ever came within 3 ft of our front door we were lucky and never actually saw water in the house, only the garden and garage went under. Even so after a wet night I recall the first look outside being about seeing how far the "tide" had come (not real tide) and whether the main road was flooded, as that would mean that all the minor roads were well under.
One morning we were treated to the sight of two cops with trousers rolled up, pushing the police car out of the flood!
It's still shocking for anyone to see their home ruined and I hope those affected are given every support to get things sorted ASAP.
In reply to DR:
Hearing positive stuff about this Cumbrian Floods Partnership where it does look like a whole catchment approach is the intention. I think one of the options will be to pursue Rivers Trusts Slow the flow projects in the uplands and to have them looking at locations where erosion is a problem.
Hearing positive stuff about this Cumbrian Floods Partnership where it does look like a whole catchment approach is the intention. I think one of the options will be to pursue Rivers Trusts Slow the flow projects in the uplands and to have them looking at locations where erosion is a problem.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
The Lake District is hardly managed for a "save the planet dogma", it is totally given over to mass tourism. The environment is only useful in as far as it attracts tourists. For example the United Utilities fence above Thirlmere which was withdrawn after objections from bodies such as Friends of the Lake District. This fence would have helped natural vegetation to regenerate, reducing peat erosion and improving water quality. Measures that reduce erosion also reduce rates of runoff so such a scheme could potentially take a percentage point or so off the scale of the flood impact downstream in Keswick.
The Lake District is hardly managed for a "save the planet dogma", it is totally given over to mass tourism. The environment is only useful in as far as it attracts tourists. For example the United Utilities fence above Thirlmere which was withdrawn after objections from bodies such as Friends of the Lake District. This fence would have helped natural vegetation to regenerate, reducing peat erosion and improving water quality. Measures that reduce erosion also reduce rates of runoff so such a scheme could potentially take a percentage point or so off the scale of the flood impact downstream in Keswick.
2
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to reply - and I agree with most of what you say. What you illustrate has happened across the board, not just in National Parks or in local Government though. You're spot on about the road lengthsmen but labour intensive jobs like these have gone across all sectors - how many shepherds are left in the Lakes now, how many agricultural labourers?
When the National Park was 'made' in 1951, the management was done by the Special Planning Board, and is still called that by many people. Basically there were planners and a few rangers who tramped the hills all day. Now it is a much bigger organisation with over 150 staff. Until 1974 there were three councils - Westmorland, Cumberland and Lancashire which were hardly small - but the reorganisation into Cumbria and all the districts means we have a ridiculous bureaucratic structure with responsibilities lying all over the place. It's management by committee now...
Aye,
Davie
Hi Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to reply - and I agree with most of what you say. What you illustrate has happened across the board, not just in National Parks or in local Government though. You're spot on about the road lengthsmen but labour intensive jobs like these have gone across all sectors - how many shepherds are left in the Lakes now, how many agricultural labourers?
When the National Park was 'made' in 1951, the management was done by the Special Planning Board, and is still called that by many people. Basically there were planners and a few rangers who tramped the hills all day. Now it is a much bigger organisation with over 150 staff. Until 1974 there were three councils - Westmorland, Cumberland and Lancashire which were hardly small - but the reorganisation into Cumbria and all the districts means we have a ridiculous bureaucratic structure with responsibilities lying all over the place. It's management by committee now...
Aye,
Davie
In reply to cumbria mammoth:
I just read the reports regarding United Utilities fence and the objection by the Friends of the Lake District. They don't appear to have said much about the thousands of walkers damaging the fells.
I just read the reports regarding United Utilities fence and the objection by the Friends of the Lake District. They don't appear to have said much about the thousands of walkers damaging the fells.
1
In reply to icnoble:
Nobody was saying that and neither did I. It wasn't to deter walkers, it was to reduce sheep numbers and allow vegetation to be restored. Benefits include holding the soil together, disturbing surface water flow routes, increasing infiltration and transpiration, and the water held in and on the vegetation itself. All of which can play a part in reducing the impact of flooding.
Doesn't need to be everywhere, just needs to be targeted by a strategic look at a catchment scale to identify key locations where there are large inputs of surface water and where erosion is a problem.
Nobody was saying that and neither did I. It wasn't to deter walkers, it was to reduce sheep numbers and allow vegetation to be restored. Benefits include holding the soil together, disturbing surface water flow routes, increasing infiltration and transpiration, and the water held in and on the vegetation itself. All of which can play a part in reducing the impact of flooding.
Doesn't need to be everywhere, just needs to be targeted by a strategic look at a catchment scale to identify key locations where there are large inputs of surface water and where erosion is a problem.
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In reply to DR:
Not sure how many people actually understand what has happened and what is going on.
Some of us like to think we do. We would also like to change it, but the chance of that is about zero.
The lunatics are running the asylum. That is the universal local consensus.
The locals should take some responsibility here - and they should stand up and challenge the status quo.
DC
> It's management by committee now...
I agree Davie with everything you say. I would much prefer talking about climbing and good news items, but unfortunately we live in an area which really has been turned into a cash-generation monster. The net effect of that is that whenever you go anywhere out and about, or have conversations about the area in the pub you realise how badly it effects the local people, climbers included, the way of life, the traditional culture, the heritage.Not sure how many people actually understand what has happened and what is going on.
Some of us like to think we do. We would also like to change it, but the chance of that is about zero.
The lunatics are running the asylum. That is the universal local consensus.
The locals should take some responsibility here - and they should stand up and challenge the status quo.
DC
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In reply to cumbria mammoth:
Mammoth, your last two comments I would have to disagree with in some parts. Fine hypothetically but not in practice. Back in the 50s and 60s run-off was not a problem, neither was bracken, trees didn't matter, the place was beautiful. At present too much woolly thinking, rose-tinted ideals of "what the garden should be like". The baby has gone out with the bathwater. It's a big issue but those responsible for managing the NP are derelict in their duties in the views of many. We should probably give up on this discussion and talk about climbing instead, its just that every time I go out I become incandescent with what I see that is wrong .. .. .. .!
Here's to some winter conditions.
This weather is pretty par for the time of year.
DC
Mammoth, your last two comments I would have to disagree with in some parts. Fine hypothetically but not in practice. Back in the 50s and 60s run-off was not a problem, neither was bracken, trees didn't matter, the place was beautiful. At present too much woolly thinking, rose-tinted ideals of "what the garden should be like". The baby has gone out with the bathwater. It's a big issue but those responsible for managing the NP are derelict in their duties in the views of many. We should probably give up on this discussion and talk about climbing instead, its just that every time I go out I become incandescent with what I see that is wrong .. .. .. .!
Here's to some winter conditions.
This weather is pretty par for the time of year.
DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
I wonder if there is any chance of us getting help from the EU Solidarity fund to help rebuild the wrecked roads and bridges?
I wonder if there is any chance of us getting help from the EU Solidarity fund to help rebuild the wrecked roads and bridges?
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