UKC

Hi, I'm just starting trad climbing and am rigging top ropes for my brother. Ive got a couple of sets of nuts. Is it neccassary to buy a few cams or not, if so what sizes would people recommend as I don't want to buy a lot for a start! Cheers

In reply to h.cook2000:

If you're going to get reasonably serious then cams are a great investment. It depends on what you're climbing on as most Limestone in certain areas can render cams useless unless you have a crack wider at the back. There are multi buy deals and the choice is huge. Personally I use the dual pivot DMM Dragons and they are great for me. As you go on, other brands of cam have advantages in specific applications.
Second hand gear shows up on here cheap but personally I only buy new as I want to know the history of the pieces. No doubt you'll get different answers on here.

In reply to h.cook2000:

Not necessary, it's good to serve an 'apprenticeship' on nuts first, you can get up almost anything using just nuts, so save your cash and go become a nut pro first. I'd get some torques, tri-cams or rockcentrics first.


BUT.......cams become desirable, especially if you've had a play with one or seen another climber using them. Get regular sizes (1,2,3) nothing too big or too small. Don't bother with the half sizes in between as they all overlap anyway.

In reply to Dell:


the cost of which would buy you three cams!!

I agree about the apprenticeship with basic wires though.

In reply to h.cook2000:

Size 1, 2 & 3 is good for a start. They are available in a set by most manufacturers - just look about and try and find a deal. Joe Brown usually have some good prices - depends on which cams you like.

In reply to BnB: But I'd still get the Hexes or Torque nuts. If you're on a big pitch would you rather have an extra cam or a bunch of nice big nutes to supplement your two or three cams, plus the placements are more obviously easy to assess the quality of.

In reply to old... : 'most Limestone in certain areas can render cams useless unless you have a crack wider at the back' - I disagree with the first statement, and a crack that flares inwards has the potential to be lethal as a 4 cam unit will walk in, potentially falling into a 'hole'. Parallel sides, or close to, please

In reply to h.cook2000:

So if you are Leading then Size 1, 2 and 3 Black Diamond Camalots kept me good for a number of years. When you get a bit better and climbing harder routes then you'll tend to see the need for a couple of smaller cams in the range.

If you are setting up Top Ropes (for the pedantic amongst you, Bottom Ropes) then use nuts & Hex's instead of Cams. Top Roping loads and unloads the anchors continuously. This can cause non passive protection (Cams, Tri-cams etc) to move and leads to the potential of the anchor failing. As you are generally at the bottom you will not be able to see the anchor and will be oblivious to this. Best to Stick to passive gear (nuts, Hex's, threads etc) for anchors in a top rope system.

In reply to h.cook2000:

For setting up top ropes, I'd stick to nuts and hexs. When you start leading, I'd be waiting for these:

http://www.outside.co.uk/latest/news/The-Very-Best-of-Friends

and get the sizes equivalent to .75, 1 & 2 in BD Camalots.

In reply to galpinos:

Agree, in Black Diamond camalots go for the .75, 1 and 2. The 3 is massive and generally only comes out in the Peak District or on a specific route. Spends most of time in my rucksack or sat in a pile at my house.

In reply to Dell:



Wouldn't agree with these statements strictly. With limestone you'll be ok with just nuts generally. Hexes often useful when big gear needed. Not uncommon for gritstone routes to need primarily cams though. Particularly when a lot the gear placements are uniform cracks and horizontal breaks.

The second statement about cam size overlap is also not strictly true as it depends on the model of cam. Wild Country cams for example need half sizes to cover all widths. If I was starting out again I'd be buying dual pivot cams such as Dragons or Camalots as they have a bigger range and so will offer more flexibility if you are stating out with eg 3 cams.

In reply to h.cook2000:

Well how did people get up stuff before cams were invented? They used their nuts, and their noggins.

Yeh half sizes are obviously useful, but for a starter set you should probably get a broad range then fill in the gaps later.

In reply to h.cook2000:

Buy 1,2,3 and get wires

Ignore the unhelpful advice above. Why buy a hex only to replace it with a cam 12 months later. Don't ever buy tri cams, offset aliens replace them these days.

If you need to place a wire, place a wire. If you need to place a cam, place a cam.

You'd have some fun protecting certain grit routes with no cams.....
You could also serve an apprenticeship in trainers and without chalk, but what is the point?

In reply to galpinos:

Despite what the article claims... these just look like camalots with Wild Country written on them.

To the OP: Ignore the "don't buy cams" brigade. Get some, and learn how to use them properly. Nuts will never be perfect in parallel cracks, and cams will always be less preferable in tapering cracks. With regard to sizes, I'd go for a Wild Country/DMM (they're the same) 1,2 and 3 if you're based in the Peak, and 0.5, 1,5 and 2.5 for North Wales. Haven't climbed enough elsewhere to make a reliable recomendation. As others have said, if you go BD (the nicest, swankiest and most expensive IMHO) then .75, 1 and 2.

In reply to ianstevens:


Well, yes they're a double axle cam but with an extendable slings. So, that would make them preferable to Camalots (no extendable sling) and Dragons (awful extendable sling) imho.

In reply to h.cook2000:
I would echo a few other comments on this thread that for setting up top/bottom ropes, cams aren't ideal. If you want to set up top/bottom ropes, then slings and hexes would be a good investment. They are also good for leading the lowest grades. For lead climbing, cams might be better value for money, especially as your grade improves.

Also, notes that different manufacturers use different numbers for the same size cams. Some manufacturers even use different numbers for different designs of cam that they make. DMM, BD and WC have more-or-less standardised on a colour scheme though. Rock and run have a handy comparison chart showing the range, number and colour of cams from different manufacturers: http://www.rockrun.com/wp/cam-size-comparison-chart/
A Camelot 2 is the same size (and colour) as a Dragon 4, for example.
Which cam sizes to start with will depend what type of rock you usually climb on, and what grade, but you wouldn't go far wrong starting with Dragon 1/2/3 sort of size.

In reply to galpinos:

The extendable sling is different (and is probably useful for wars at the patent office to seperate the two) but I personally think they're pants. They only offer a little bit of extension (10cm or so?) which I don't really think is enough for the job they're supposed to do, and a proper draw will give you far more. I appreciate that it's personal preference though!

In reply to h.cook2000:

My most used friend sizes are 2, 2.5 and 3. That's because I like hand jamming cracks. My first 3 cams were a 1,2,3 which served me well but I quickly purchased an additional one at size 2.5 because that is the perfect size for many jamming cracks.

In reply to ianstevens:

I found the extendable doing on my old 4cus really handy and when they were stolen I replaced them with Camalots. I tried a mate's Dragons but the sling extension is really faffy so am keen to try these new WC cams. They would be the best compromise for me, meaning I'll hopefully go back to only using an extender on less than a quarter of cam placements, instead of about half.

In reply to ianstevens:

I'm a peak climber so I'd probably be the first three. Thanks for your help

In reply to h.cook2000:

FWIW, I started with DMM 2, 3, 4 and they were good for me; I only recently extended the range down with a 1. That was quite a common recommendation on these forums a couple of years ago.

In reply to climbwhenready:

..... Which are approx the same sizes as BD Camalots 0.72, 1 and 2 and WC 1,2 and 3, which is the same as most people have suggested.

(Good comparison chart on V12)

In reply to galpinos:

Ahh, yeah. For some reason I thought DMM and WC had aligned their sizing, but I was wrong.

In reply to galpinos:

Each to their own I guess! I just find them faffy all round (having used both 4CU's and Dragons) and would rather use a quickdraw. I probably only extend 1 in 4 placements, generally as I do long routes using halves as opposed to (going via your logbook!) shorter routes probably on a single. When I make a (rare these days) visit to the peak I probably do end up extending more regularly.

In reply to h.cook2000:

I'd go 0.5, 1.5 and 2.5

The bigger sizes fit cracks that you can normally get a hand jam in.

In reply to h.cook2000:
For setting up top ropes avoid cams. They are only solid when under load, this means you can set them perfectly while at the top of the crag but they can walk out while your at the bottom faffing with the rope. Not such an issue when your bringing up a second and you can keep an eye on them but not ideal when their out of site for a prolonged period of time.

To reiterate. Protection for setting up a top rope anchor in order of preference would be;
* Slings/rope on solid natural features such as threads, spikes/boulders, trees,
* Nuts/hexs in cracks,
* Cams in parallel sided cracks

For leading cams are great, they're quick to place and clean and work in places where nothing else will. Especially useful if you climb grit or granite.

In reply to ianstevens:

To be honest, my rack spends most of it's time in the loft! I mainly solo and boulder and only log new/significant to me stuff.

It is indeed personal preference, I much prefer my rack to my climbing partners and it's all new kit