UKC

Lots of folk out enjoying the lean early season conditions in Lochain at the weekend! If you climbed any of the following routes then give me a shout as I have some photos of you:

Fallout Corner (Saturday, lots of pics of you guys)
Bulgy (Saturday, a couple of pics of you on that first pitch)
The Migrant (Saturday and Sunday)
Hookers Corner (Saturday)

We climbed Savage Slit and had a great time, write up with lots of photos including some listed above here:

http://www.mistymountainhop.net/2015/12/savage-slit-and-silver-linings/

Cheers,
Dave

In reply to MrRiley:


Get those easy ticks in boys, could you give me the names and adresses of the guys on Fall out corner, so i can pass them on to the Northern hill police, snecks division.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965: Ha ha!!! Nice one. Guilty as charged but you're no getting my address!

In reply to MrRiley:

If you could email me some of the pictures of Bulgy that would be excellent. I was the guy leading pitch 1. Unfortunately I didn't manage to get any pictures of you guys while I was belaying. Was busy trying to avoid a crampon to the skull. Cheers!

In reply to MrRiley: Good pics.

In reply to Captain Solo:


Perhaps not, but apparently no amount of experience is sufficient to stop someone being a pompous arse.

In reply to Captain Solo:

This is very unfortunate. You sound incredibly bitter and jaded. It's a real shame because considering your wealth of experience you have a real opportunity on these forums and outside to offer less experienced people genuinely useful advice and help. Instead, you seem to take great pleasure in putting people down and making disparaging remarks. A pity.

But just to clarify a few things: The blog which I very much enjoy writing gets updated about every six weeks or so, normally by which time we've had a good adventure. It's a really fun creative outlet! It's also a pet computer science project as I host it myself on my own webserver and maintain it, which I also get a lot out of. It's a happy bi-product that others enjoy reading it and looking at the photos, just the same way as I really enjoy the myriad other climbing blogs where people put the effort in to make a good narrative with nice photos. The very fact you have to seek out and hijack a thread on an internt forum to put someone down for indulging their passion is disgusting and cowardly. It's a personal dig that has backfired massively.

Secondly, you seem to have some problems with me and my friends climbing Savage Slit. This I'm happy to debate in an open, polite and frank manner. I'll begin - it is an established winter route that was climbed white, rimed and frozen (just like the other routes in the Coire incidentally). Please respond amicably and note that it is moot to discuss whether it should be a winter climb in itself. It is - every guidebook recommends it as one of the best routes of its kind in Scotland.

Finally, please use this as an opportunity to apologise. Manners maketh man. No one questions your credibility as a climber and valued member of a community, but wouldn't it be better if you were just a nice person too?

In reply to MrRiley:

Nice pics/write up/blog Dave. Savage Slit looks good.

In reply to MrRiley:

"Helpful" conditions, but nowt wrong with that. White and I don't think you'd have got far without winter kit. Nice pictures too.

In reply to MrRiley:
Jeezo I've touched a raw nerve here.

very fact you have to seek out and hijack a thread on an internt forum to put someone down for indulging their passion is disgusting and cowardly. It's a personal dig that has backfired massively.

it was your suggestion to take it up on the forums and not leave comments on your photo gallery. I was responding to your labelling of my comments being ignorant and of talking nonsense. It was not a personal dig I was merely questioning your right to dismiss my comments out of hand.


As I've stated elsewhere I don't have a problem with the herd queuing up in the second most trashed coire in Scotland but I think your blog sends out the wrong signals as climbing lower grade routes with a dusting of cosmetic powder should be viewed as the norm and 'cracking early season conditions'.
I treated myself only recently to the newest smc Cairngorms guide which indeed gives it **** and states it seldom holds ice in quantity, you didn't give it much of a chance did you? I noticed the first man up had brushed most of the pointless rime away anyway, does this make it out of condition for subsequent ascents?


If you want get yourself worked up about it that's fine but I was only responding to your dismissive remarks. I need to be polite and apologise? I have been polite but I am bitter, jaded, disgusting, cowardly and not a nice person apparently.
Here's my quote 'thou dost protest too much'.
I don't want to pour cold water on anyone having fun climbing in winter, it's something we all enjoy but it isn't just me that isn't sharing your opinion of cracking early season conditions.
Blimey now I know why I usually bite my tongue (or keyboard finger) when it comes to frosty rock climbers and ethics, they're awfy touchy.
I'm a nice person really,
lots of love, Capt.

In reply to planetmarshall:

You're too kind pm,
Have you read Mr Riley's photo comments on myself and others?
Am I right in saying us teaming up for a route seems doomed to failure?

In reply to Captain Solo:
Me doing a route this Winter with anyone seems doomed to failure, but never say never. I read Mr Riley's reply, and yes it was a touch overblown. I still think you were being a pompous arse (in this instance), though.

I have, however, given you a 'Like' since you did manage to do The Crab Crawl which I was bloody impressed by.

In reply to planetmarshall:
Aw thanks, so never say never then?
Must turn in now its well past my bedtime.

In reply to Captain Solo:

I'm not sure I am trying to convince anyone of anything to be honest. In my opinion they were cracking early season conditions and in yours they were not. That's absolutely fine and that should be the end of it. Unfortunately it's not though because apparently posting a photo in ones own gallery is considered an open invite for thinly-veiled insults and holier-than-thou belittlment from the self-styled cognoscenti. People shouldn't have to suffer a roasting for doing what they enjoy, so I'll happily stand by my (slightly) overblown response. How you can think your posts are polite though is completely beyond me.

In reply to Captain Solo:
I'd say these are acceptable early season conditions. A bit of cosmetic rime but the main thing is there's snow in the cracks (more so on Fallout Corner it seems) and no doubt on ledges and footholds, you just can't see it in the photos as is often the case. A bit more build up would be better but I doubt you'd get up it without winter kit!

Given the comments in your logbook for your first route of the season done on the same weekend, perhaps you shouldn't sit too high on that horse?

In reply to Captain Solo:
Were you in the coire(s) that weekend? What did you think of the underfoot conditions above 1000m?
What routes did you do that gave you a first hand appreciation of the winter nick of the crag?
I met some of the most well known winter climbers in the country that weekend who were out climbing - the crag was definitely 'in'.
Basing your puerile opinions on a blog post is just disappointing. If gain pleasure from disparaging comments that take away from a well intentioned blog post then I suggest you go and visit the UKC forums..... Oh wait.

In reply to Captain Solo:


Now THAT is overblown!

In reply to MrRiley:

Hello it's me again, deep breath, here we go.


You're going to have to believe me when I say I didnt mean my post as a personal dig, maybe I didn't word it well and came across as self righteous. If it wasn't you and your pals climbing SS there was evidently plenty more there ticking enough 'looks wintry' boxes.
I just got the impression though that it was more important to tick it and blog it rather than wait for better conditions to come along. I have to admit when I saw yours and Ian Stewart's photos of the weekend my first thought was 'well I didn't miss much in the Norries this weekend'.
It's virtually the first snows of winters there, it's not going to be great. Winter climbing in Scotland is one the most frustrating games we play. I've lost count of the times I've had to walk past a route thinking oh well, there's always next season for better conditions.
The main reason was a reaction to having my and others comments dismissed out of hand and I was questioning on what merit gave you the right. And it was your suggestion to use the forums.

Unfortunately it's not though because apparently posting a photo in ones own gallery is considered an open invite for thinly-veiled insults and holier-than-thou belittlment from the self-styled cognoscenti.

You will need to be able to accept folk pulling your leg and not throw the toys out of the pram when you don't agree with what's been said. Remember it's not just me.

People shouldn't have to suffer a roasting for doing what they enjoy, so I'll happily stand by my (slightly) overblown response. How you can think your posts are polite though is completely beyond me.

Because I've not been using insults?

I really do hope there are still climbers out there that share my views and are willing to be patient in winter and not get carried away with a dusting of powder. I do feel I'm swimming against the tide sometimes living in the must have it now world.
That's it I'm not sticking my head above the parapet again.
Hope this winter turns out to be a good one and you enjoy the genuinely good conditions when they come along, and I genuinely mean that.
Anyway Mrs solo is tapping her watch and looking at me disapprovingly so that means it time to go Christmas shopping.
All the best
Capt.

In reply to Misha:

Acceptable, yes but far from ideal.

But the point is I am not touting cracking early season conditions.

In reply to JoeyTheFish:
The photos made it pretty obvious what conditions to expect.
You're missing the point again, I'm not contesting it was in acceptable condition for what passes as contemporary standards.
Believe you me I'm not gaining any pleasure from this I just happen to think the blog is misguided.

In reply to Captain Solo:


What's the problem? No harm has been done. No damage was done to the route. Nobody died. Someone just went climbing. So what if somebody else wouldn't have? That's their loss.

Am I alone in finding this sort of pathetic bickering which seems to plague winter climbing these days really pretty depressing? It really does make me nostalgic for pre internet days when people just went out and climbed without any of this shit.

In reply to Captain Solo:


Given the current tropical temps this route choice will be defo be "In acceptable nick." It's likely to be very popular this weekend with lengthy ques

In reply to Joak:

Captain solo on the way to the shops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaoYSiNDnI0o

In reply to Robert Durran:

No Robert, you are not alone!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I now know why I don't usually get involved in the threads, you have to be on constant call to explain and justify posts and I've ended up been sucked into what appears to be a slanging match which I didnt set out to do. Maybe I could have worded it a bit more diplomatically but I underestimated how sensitive the early season brigade are.
I promise to bite my tongue a bit harder next time, love peace and harmony to one and all.
Are you sure no cumulative damage was done to the route Bob...
Seriously though let's hope we don't have to wait too long for the cold weather to return and start filling the routes up with useful neve and ice.
Arrabest
Capt.

In reply to Captain Solo:

We were out on the same weekend in a different venue but similar "early season" conditions. We felt it was on the borderline of justifiable/unjustifiable and definitely not "great conditions". We continued, partly because it looked more wintry further up the mountain and partly because it was the easiest way back to our bags (rather than the long walk round).

I don't see too much issue with climbing in those conditions (caveat any turf frozen, loose blocks gelled in place), but I do agree that it's not a great idea to proclaim "great early season conditions" - as climbers new to the scene may see this as the norm, which it's not. Well, it might be but it shouldn't be.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Hi Alasdair, things were a bit different in Lochain to how you described the Eastern Ramparts, by the sounds of it anyway. I acknowledge both in the blog and at the start of the thread that conditions were lean but I still think they were great. I take your point that this can easily be misconstrued though so I'll dial it down a bit next time. Cheers, Dave

In reply to Captain Solo:

Hi Capt, I am really sorry that you have been dragged in to this petty bickering after my initial "comment" on the "state" of this rock climb. It's a shame that these descendants of the "dangle and whack" brigade, masquerading as winter climbers seem to have had a humor by-pass. Whilst I may not be happy with the damage being done by axes & crampons in these "lean" conditions I can understand why people wish to climb them but this does not mean that "modern" attitudes are correct or sustainable.

In reply to MrRiley:
Dave Riley: brilliant photos, nice blog, classy Zep reference--love it. Thanks for posting. I'll be back to have another look soon.

Some other people on this thread: well, you've reminded me why I spend so little time on UKC these days. Which is a useful reminder. So, thanks for that

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
Don't worry, it's my own fault for taking the bait.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nah you're not alone Robert, i give up on UKC totally. The uses it provides are outweighed by the bickering.

To the OP, Shame on you in not going out in 70mph winds, squall, iced up verglass cracks and av cat 4. Or in reality, i hate you for going out and getting a classic winter route done whilst i sit on a boat in Congo. Looking forward to gettin out when i return.

Centurion05

In reply to Sophie G.:

Thanks Sophie and thanks to those others who have commented that they've enjoyed the blog! Silver linings and all that...

In reply to Captain Solo:

No more than by any other ascent (apart from perhaps in freakily icy conditions) or indeed than if someone went and tooled it in July (which I wouldn't have any objection to either, though I wouldn't bother myself because it would feel contrived). I've done the route three times, once in a lot leaner conditions than the OP when the top half of it would have been easier without crampons, but it didn't seem worth the faff of hanging on a runner and taking them off - a bit like the Alps. Not really a proper winter ascent but a lot more fun than bending to the sanctimonious pontifications of self appointed internet guardians of winter ethics and walking straight back to the carpark and wasting the day.

In reply to Robert Durran:


plenty of no-hands rests on Savage Slit, no?

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:

Showing your age with that one! The reality is that these are snowed up rock routes and virtually never have enough coverage to protect the rock during an ascent.

I also notice that despite his clear statement lots of folks are still misinterpreting the Captain's point. He isn't complaining about these routes being climbed. He's complaining about people reporting them as being in good nick a point which even the OP has acknowledged.

In reply to DaveHK:

You are quite right about the age Dave. Fortunately I do not take myself or any other posters too seriously on this site and whilst dry tooling is not my thing I accept that it is seen as the thing to do whether or not conditions are "in" or not. Perhaps it is just the amount of damage to the rock I have seen over the decades caused by crampons and axes, that put me off. I have other issues but no point in setting off the trolls again!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Fairly lean when I did it as well, although was partly due to the storm force winds blowing up the route and stripping everything. Spindrift in the wrong direction. The ab rope blew up around my neck like a noose on the abseils which was a first. Definately 'winter' that day, although maybe not obvious from an armchair.

In reply to Captain Solo:

Had a quick look at your logbook out of curiosity and it's quite obvious that you prefer ice and neve routes. Also that you do most of your winter climbing during the middle/latter half of winter. Just wondered why you have such an interest in early season mixed routes? I totally appreciate the damage that can be done to turf and loose ground when routes are not in winter condition. Particularly easier routes on less steep ground. Some of the routes in Lochain are well known for not having turf and being ideal for early season.


Routes like Savage Slit don't need ice. In fact the route can be a bit of a nightmare from what I have heard when ice fills the cracks. The climbing becomes technically easier but the protection much harder. I know a few people that have backed off due to lack of gear because of ice. Me personally I'd rather climb the route when gear is much easier to place. It might make the route overall less of a challenge but for me it's going to be more enjoyable.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Yes, but you need a foot off as well to remove a crampon!

With all this rain we are having in Cumbria I might dig out the old hob nails as it was a bit slippery underfoot today! : )

In reply to French Erick:
Well, im out of the game till February at least as I have broken my hand but even in my current armchair state I cant be bothered reading this turgid thread in its entirety.

However, as an official SMC referee, I must remind the pugilists in this thread that the given grade for a route in the Scottish grading system is for average conditions. Sometimes you will get it easier and sometimes harder.
Ding ding, next round.
James

In reply to French Erick:

Oh god don't mention Fusilier... the in situ peg was the only bit of gear worth hanging your coat on and that teetery slab round the corner (shudder)....

In reply to AlH:


Ha! That route was a great argument for waiting for good nick!

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
May be its a question of terminology. If I say great early season conditions, I mean great conditions by early season standards, it's a relative thing. Not great conditions by general winter standards, if there is such a thing. You make a good point though.

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
There is a common misconception that the rock on a mixed route will suffer less damage if there is more build up. Unless it's plastered in a good layer of ice (unlikely on a mixed route) or very fat rime (as in the very snowy winter of 2013), it won't make that much difference because people will still have to scrape away the rime etc to get at the cracks etc for gear and holds. In fact in lean conditions there may be less damage as there's less need to scrape around and you can be more precise with placements. The amount of build up on a mixed route is primarily about the ethics of whether it is a valid winter ascent, no whether the rock will get damaged - it probably will be anyway. Whether this or that rock route is acceptable as a winter route in principle is a completely different debate.

In reply to Misha:


Or even just " good enough early season conditions". Thus, unquestionably winter, likely to offend some of the old school ice squad, but in.
The whole of Captain Solo's hijack is about exactly this: no harm in getting it ticked but whatever you do don't call it "great nick". Otherwise, there will be an inflation of what is good/bad. Great nick is great nick, bad is bad and ok is ok. No sliding scale!
He's a really good egg, the Capt'ain!

In reply to Misha:

Please, let's have another thread for "damages". Us being alive is damaging to the environment! Us using the internet, heats up the atmosphere and creates more "great early season conditions"!

In reply to French Erick:
I wouldn't be surprised if 'early season' conditions are the norm up till the end of January.
James

In reply to French Erick:

Fair enough. I guess it's easy to get over excited early season. Just great to get stuff done...

In reply to French Erick:


Why not? If it's in condition (ie easier with than without crampons) it's in condition. Should (as Captain Solo implies: " I really do hope there are still climbers out there that share my views and are willing to be patient in winter and not get carried away with a dusting of powder") we be waiting ("be patient") for less amenable conditions.

Would Captain Solo similarly advocate getting on Nevis ice routes early in the season rather than waiting for amenably fat conditions late season and knock anyone who dared to climb Zero as a fun grade 3 and describe it as "great nick" rather than doing it as a scary grade 5?

For ice routes "great nick" is generally taken to mean fat, easy conditions. So why shouldn't mixed routes be in "great nick" when they are in easy dry powdered condition?

In reply to Robert Durran:

"For ice routes "great nick" is generally taken to mean fat, easy conditions. So why shouldn't mixed routes be in "great nick" when they are in easy dry powdered condition?"

Because it isn't mixed if there's no snow/ ice/ frozen turf to pull on. It's rock climbing with axes, crampons and a nice light dusting of snow that yields easy gear placements?

In reply to Mr Riley;

Lets wait til it rimes up good and proper, then go up and scrape all of it away and then climb it, good old Scottish ethics eh? All in the name of boosting our egos with the fact we climbed it in "acceptable" condition.

People really need to stop taking climbing so seriously, and especially those who sit and spout off from their arm chair.

Good effort getting out and ticking a few routes off Mr Riley!

In reply to MrRiley:

Does this mean I can climb anywhere in the UK using axe & crampons as long as its been snowing or, a little icy for added authenticity, and then claim a 1st winter ascent?

Its only a bit of rock.

In reply to Dave Perry:
Is that what he said? Or are you just putting words in people's mouths for effect? Just checked the SMC guide to have a look at the description for Savage Slit... "There is no turf so it comes into condition with the first snows."

Can believe this is still being discussed. Glad my climbing partners aren't such miserable buggers

In reply to Robert Durran:

'Great nick' is not the same as 'easy nick'. A stepped out ice route is not in 'great nick'. First time placements on perfect snow ice without a hint of the passage of others would be better described as great nick.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I didn't say stepped out (that might be the equivalent of doing Savage Slit after another team have scraped off all the rime). I just think it odd that "great nick" for an ice route is generally taken to be easy conditions whereas people object to "great nick" being used to describe a snowed up rock route in easy condition.

In reply to footwork:


I used the common and, I agree, confusing convention of describing a snowed up rock route as "mixed".

In reply to Dave Perry:


Yes. If it's easier in crampons than without then it's a valid winter ascent. But there is also the entirely separate issue of whether concensus dictates that crampon scratches are acceptable on the route.

Tooling Right Unconquerable under heavy rime and verglas is unacceptable despite being a valid winter ascent whereas tooling Savage Slit when it is black and dry is acceptable but not a valid winter ascent.

In reply to Robert Durran:

How bizarre Robert, as, the ethics of try tooling right unconquerable came into my head last night as well. These great old minds.............

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:


Clichéd minds building strawmen perhaps, what has RU got to do with anything? It isn't a mountain crag and has nothing to do with winter climbing. The only cliff made of gritstone that has ever been vaguely looked at as a winter target is Penyghent as it sort of fits the mountain cliff criteria but even that was controversial.

"Whack and dangle", now going on about Stanage... Have I woken up in 1999?

In reply to TobyA:

Dovestones Quarry

In reply to ste_d:

Aren't the best lines there ice routes though? A bit like Kinder and even Millstone? Or is Dovestone Q esoteric enough that no one cares about mixed climbing there? Anyway, the point isn't that people haven't winter climbed in some weird places but rather that going from bemoaning people climbing Savage Slit when it is first hoared up to talking about dry tooling Right Unconquerable is just silly.

In reply to MrRiley:

If it's not like 13:06 on flutted buttress it's not in? What about that for a rule?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=631196
Let's all be facetious if we're bringing Grit climbing into the thread.

In reply to TobyA:


It's pretty clear that Robert's mention of Right Unconquerable was meant as an extreme example of what isn't acceptable. I don't think anybody here is suggesting otherwise.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I think Mike Rhodes was suggesting exactly that if we tolerate people climbing SS in thin-ish early season conditions (looked fine to me FWIW) then RU will be next. youtube.com/watch?v=cX8szNPgrEs&

In reply to Mr. Lee:


Well I thought it was pretty clear that I had picked as extreme example as possible to make the point that winter ascents of some routes are totally unacceptable, even though possible. Odd responses from some people............

In reply to TobyA:


No idea why you think that. Or indeed why anyone would suggest that.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I was definitely on your wavelength Robert. I still have scars on the back of my hands from jamming it one winters day in the 70's in decidedly "cold & thin" conditions.

In reply to Robert Durran:

There are no "ethics to drytooling right unconquerable" because it's not a mountain route just like no one is going to dry tool Dream of the White Horses or Coronation Street. Mike started off with talking about people climbing Savage Slit "dangling and whacking", that old slur/misunderstanding that mixed climbing and aid climbing are somehow the same, then took up your point about dry tooling Right Unconquerable. What point was he making if it wasn't saying its a slippery slope from one to the other?

I was just amused by his whack and dangle reference which is a rather 80s thing to say.

In reply to TobyA:
I really don't know what your issue is.

I think my point was perfectly clear (Monday 23.33)

If you want to know whether what you insist on reading into Mike's post is correct, you better ask him.

In reply to TobyA:


One hopes not but I wouldn't take it for granted. A couple of misguided youths tooled a Millstone VS a couple of years ago (which resulted in a memorable stooshie on here).

In reply to TobyA:

Hello Toby. I am not sure quite what you issue is but you are correct that my phraseology is some what old fashioned as i started rock climbing in 1958 and since then have managed to climb with a variety of top climbers on a wide range of routes from the grater ranges to gritstone edges, summer and winter. I will accept that I have difficulty in seeing why there should be a difference in dry tooling mountain routes to any other routes as they are both routes. I am interested in your definition between dry tooling and aid climbing as I had presumed that aid climbing was using any artificial means (other than just hands and feet) to progress your way up a route. In the past this had meant using metal implements such as pitons, sky hooks, nuts etc for aid but that this had now been superseded in winter, by metal implements such as ice axes, crampons, etc. Climbers throughout the ages have been guilty of " sliding down the slippery slope" over the ages, whether it is using aid, practicing moves, chipping holds etc and in the modern era where the end justifies the means, I am sure that this will continue.
Now having had my rant, after coming back from the pub, let me say that, although dry tooling passed me by in the 80's I have no problem with people who enjoy this side of our sport but please just be honest that it is a refined type of aid climbing in winter of "sometimes" snowed up rock climbs.
I suspect that your relative youth ( not a criticism) may not enable you to see the humor in my comments. Unlike many of the posters on this site, whilst I may not agree with all of the comments I fully support their rights to express their views.
Rant over and a merry Christmas and New Year to you all.

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
I assumed your comments were somewhat tongue in cheek. However, to give serious answers to a couple of points you've raised:

1. Dry tooling and mixed climbing are different things

Granted, some of the mixed climbing takes place in fairly lean conditions but even then it's undeniably winter climbing - snowed up footholds and ledges, snow and ice in the cracks, a bit of rime on the rock, sometimes blobs of frozen turf. You end up having to scrape around for holds and gear, clear cracks and footholds, that kind of stuff. Whereas dry tooling is on undeniably bare rock (on the Continent and in North America there are sometimes hanging ice pillars on tooling routes but obviously we don't get those conditions here). It is also bolt protected. I've done both dry tooling and mixed climbing in early season conditions and they are completely different experiences. It's like sport and trad, except the difference is much greater. There's a debate to be had about what acceptable winter conditions mean and which rock routes can be done as winter routes but unless a route is pretty much devoid of snow and ice, it won't be dry tooling.

2. Dry tooling and mixed climbing or indeed ice climbing are not aid climbing.

Aid climbing involves climbing ON gear. You make progress by putting gear in place and pulling up on it and/or stepping up on etriers. Whereas the various forms of climbing with crampons and ice axes involve climbing WITH tools and you put gear in for protection rather than to make progress ON it. You are right that you generally don't touch the rock or ice directly with your hands or feet but you are still free climbing - you have to place your tools just as you would with your hands and feet when rock climbing and you have to hang on to the axes just as you have to hang on to the hand holds when rock climbing.

Hope this clarifies. You might not agree but you can see where people are coming from.

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:


That's a rather pessimistic view, and somewhat contrary to the history of climbing in the UK as I know it, where the trend has been toward better ethical styles, not away from them.

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
And I was quite surprised Mike that due to your obvious experience you invoked the old "mixed climbing is aid climbing" canard. I'm sure in your many years of experience you will have done enough mixed climbing and aid climbing to know they simply not physically similar experiences. One is sitting in your harness comfortably(ish) whilst doing some mechanical problem solving, the other is hanging on for dear life against the pump of doom. At least since the 80s if you needed to clip a tool and rest on it while winter climbing it was considered a point of aid just like when rock climbing (although in continental ice climbing clipping in to place screws seemed less ethically dubious for longer). If you are hanging off your tools by anything other than your hands, that's jolly naughty and just not cricket - bow down and say three hail Odins to the Norse gods to gain winter-absolution.

Mixed climbers are not the descendants of aid climber as you seem to think.
Mixed climbing is one aspect of Scottish winter climbing and has been around since the start - was it Collie on Cobbler 100+ years ago who first described torquing his axe in a crack? Him, or one of that generation anyway - someone who remembers their ancient SMCJs better than me will confirm I'm sure.

It is very sweet of you to call me relatively youthful though, you get lots of brownie points for that. But do tell, what has Right Unconquerable got to do with any of this.

In reply to Misha:

I agree. The only way it's possible to consider the 'modern winter climbing is aid climbing' view is from a comparison with the old days of step cutting when progress was made through pulling up on your hands, not the tools. But such a view would be at least half a century out of date and akin to trying to stop the ocean with your hands. There were some amazing feats of climbing back then but realistically no-one is going to do that nowadays when there's such an easier and safer alternative.

And yes, for dry tooling the rock is dry (funny that!). For snowed-up rock or mixed routes there tends to be some white stuff (again the clue is in the name).

In reply to TobyA:


Since it was me who first mentioned RU, can I explain (again!) that I simply used it as an extreme and uncontroversial example of a route which, by massive consensus, it is ethically unacceptable to tool. I've no idea why this is not clear to you.

In reply to Removed User:

Also worth saying that the Millstone incidence is now 5 years old without any such repeat so any hint that this is a 'trend' can probably be put to bed. There's probably greater thread posed by graffiti.

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:


This was proposed on the FRCC site as the true Winter ethics aspiration:

WINTER ETHICS - PROPOSAL

Any rock climb that:
1. Gets any Summer sun.
2. Becomes a dry line in Summer.
3. Is clean and free from drainage and vegetation in Summer.
4. Ever gets climbed in Summer.
5. Has no stars, one star, two stars or three stars:
Should NOT be climbed with axes and crampons.

Any line that:
1. Gets no Summer sun.
2. Takes drainage in Summer.
3. Remains vegetated and dirty in Summer.
4. Never forms a dry clean line in Summer.
4. Never gets climbed in Summer.
Could be climbed with winter gear subject to fully frozen conditions.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Your point was clear, I read what you had written as supporting people climbing SS as a winter climb but Mike seemed to be suggesting RU would be next in the sights of "aid climbers masquerading as winter climbers" as a result of climbing SS.

I've never been clear on why people (not you, before you get hotter under the collar!) bring in single pitch lowland (or even moorland) crags climbs into these discussions about mixed climbs, because mixed climbing is done in the mountains. Yes I know those prats top roped at Millstone a few years ago, but that was because they were prats, not because that's the logical endpoint of people mixed climbing early season in Coire an Lochain. I think the "transition zone" between mountain cliffs where you winter climb and summer cliffs where people mainly just rock climb is more complicated in the Lakes and N Wales than in Scotland, just because Scotland has a much better winter season meaning winter conditions on many cliffs are not fleeting or rare. Long may climate change hold off and let that continue!

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


How many routes really get no sun ever? Isn't that just a quick way of saying nothing is a valid winter route?

In reply to TobyA:


Only because there is a convention against it and because the mountains are more often in winter condition.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:


Sounds a bit of a fundamentalist position to me. The Winter ethic has come about mainly through common consensus rather than a set of rules. Those rules you quote would exclude many quality lines in Scotland that are both Summer and Winter lines. Indeed I wonder if some mountain climbs ( eg The Magic Crack (HVS 5a) ) would be as good as they are if they didn't see regular axe traffic during the Winter months.

In reply to Misha:


>

I have to disagree, in my mind both are a species of aid climbing, mobile aid admittedly, but if the ice axes did not assist (aid) me I would not use them.

When using ice axes you are using a tool to assist you, that must be aid.

There are routes that are a lot easier with axes in the winter than without them in the summer. Enigma Grooves on Stac Pollaidh springs to mind.

What strikes me as odd is the way the term 'aid climbing' always seems to come with a negative connotation.

I greatly enjoy winter climbing, sometimes I do moves without axes, sometimes its easier if you use them, what is the problem with it being a form of aid climbing?

It seems to me that with have a system where mobile aid is ok but static aid is not. Consider a bulldog, if you hammer it in and then pull on it that is not ok, whereas, if you place an axe in the same crack and pull on it that is ok. The two bits of metal in the rock are virtually identical. There is no real logic in that but who cares? Winter climbing is a magnificently absurd sport that, for me, makes rock climbing seem dull. It is what it is, most of us know the unwritten rules, don't get too hung up on it.

(It does become questionable though when it directly and negatively impacts upon others enjoyment of their sport, a matter which I believe is of much greater relevance in the Lake District than here in the northwest highlands)

In reply to rogerwebb:


If you classify mixed or ice climbing as a type of aid climbing, does the concept of 'freeing' such a climb not then become meaningless? Many of the improvements in style over recent years have come from Winter climbs that previously used points of aid being freed - but if they could never be free climbs to begin with, then has any real ethical improvement been made?

It might be semantically accurate to classify mixed climbing as aid, but to me in a climbing context the disciplines are completely different.

In reply to TobyA:
Those criteria were a proposal for the Lakes, not FRCC policy by the way, however, Max Biden in the new Langdale guide states in no uncertain terms what and what is not acceptable in terms of protecting our classic rock routes from the ravages of ice tools.
DC

In reply to planetmarshall:

I think they would be better if they were never tooled. Magic Crack and Savage Slit are brilliant summer routes of their grade but somewhat spoiled by all the scratches. To be perfectly honest, I think Savage Slit is a pretty average winter route and not a natural winter line but is one of the best mountain V. Diffs in the country. I first did it in 1982 when it would have probably had only a handful of winter ascents; it was perfectly clean as well as undesecrated by winter use.

I sometimes wonder what all the people who happily tool their way up Savage Slit would think if an equally classic rock climb, say Integrity, started getting loads of winter traffic (yes, I know this is unlikely, but, being a mountain route, many would consider it fair game given the conditions). I, for one, would be horrified. I hope that spiralling winter standards don't result in the likes of Needle and Steeple getting lots of traffic in future (I'd rather see Right Unconquerable getting trashed )

In reply to planetmarshall:


Yes, this discussion about whether tooling is aid is pretty silly. Everyone knows that if you progress using only crampons and the tools in your hands is not considered aid. Once you pull or hang on the gear it is.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Absolutely. What more can we ask for? It's not like its going to be written into law. People's common sense allied to longstanding sensible tradition - that's as good as we are going to get for "rules" in climbing.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Well that depends upon whether or not you subscribe to what is an arbitrary definition of 'aid', most of us do, hence I feel that I have failed if I hang on gear or pull up on the aforementioned bulldog, however, given that you make upward progress by pulling up on bits of metal jammed in cracks it is perhaps a good idea to recognise the inherent absurdity of that position.


What we commonly call aid climbing allows for static attachment to the point of aid, an aided rest if you like, the difference with mixed and dry tooling is that it does not allow an aided rest.
The terminology is inadequate?

In reply to Robert Durran:


I climbed Savage Slit for the first time in August, and was surprised at just how unscratched it was.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Well sure, but if we pull on that thread our entire discipline unravels. Climbing is inherently absurd and our rules are arbitrary - one reason why I find it difficult to get upset by depictions of climbing in the popular press. How can we object to our terminology being confused by laypeople when we can hardly agree what it means ourselves?

In reply to planetmarshall:

agree to agree then?!

(I think my inner lawyer has been coming out (he fights with my inner romantic (who fights with my inner cynic....))

In reply to MrRiley:

Wow Guys. I hadn't realised when I made my initial (what I thought was humorous) comment that it would cause such a vitriolic discussion. Please let me make it clear that I have no issue with how people climb routes, summer or winter as it is a personal choice and I attach no negative thoughts to aid climbing, dry tooling or mixed climbing, hanging on to gear/equipment or not as I am generally confident that climbing ethics in the UK have over the years been held in check by peer pressure and where the accepted boundaries have been exceeded these are quickly corrected by use of sites like this and social media. I do believe that it is healthy to keep these discussions live but please keep it adult and respect other peoples views.

In reply to rogerwebb:


Just so I understand your thinking. Are we just talking about axes jammed in cracks? What about axes jammed in ice or neve? What about if carrying one axe? What if it's an axe with a long shaft? Was the Hillary Step aid climbed? At what point are you saying climbing becomes aid? Just trying to clarify your terminology

In reply to rogerwebb:

By that definition rock shoes are aid and people should climb bare footed. It's no different.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:








So basically any existing rock route then? All routes have either stars or no stars so points 1-4 are completely pointless.

Trying to set rules for bits of rock without existing routes on them on the other hand is just not going to happen. In the mountains there's really no good reason why a possible new rock route should take precedent over a possible new winter route. At low level crags, fair enough, but this is already understood by just about everybody.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Savage Slit is a different case to the likes of Integrity for a number of reasons. (And I too would be horrified!)

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Not really, shoes aren't tools.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Neither are slings, nuts, cams, rope etc but it doesn't stop one using them as aid!

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Preferably you don't put weight on any of those, and, if you do that is classified as aid.
Weighting the gear (or tool) makes it a point of aid.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Are they not? What about taping for cracks? Or even worse, those of us who own crack gloves!? I do take your point linguistically -ice tools are of course tools, but aid climbing just feels so different because in effect you are sitting down 98% of the time. Extreme sitting down perhaps, but trying not to let go of your tools ice climbing is so much closer in feel to trying not to let go rock climbing, than to hanging around for hours on end in your harnesses, which is aid climbing.

In reply to rogerwebb:


Aha! So the Hillary Step WAS aid climbed!

In reply to TobyA:


What if you climbed a long hand crack with a gold camalot in each hand leashed to your wrist (I believe this is pretty much what speed climbers do in Yosemite). Is that aid? And if so, what is the distinction between that and a tool in each hand hooked in a crack?

In reply to TobyA:

It feels different true, and to me is a lot less scary than classic aid climbing, but ultimately you are still pulling up on metal jammed in a crack.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Sorry hadn't seen your question.

My definition of aid is;

A point of aid is used when you weight gear and use that gear for movement.

(just weighting it is a rest)

In reply to rogerwebb:

I can see your point to be honest if we strictly adhere to that definition. Effectly French freeing every move on a succession bomber or tenuous axe placements.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Rock shoes are climbing gear. Often they are weighted on small edges which would be much harder to use just with bare feet.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Are rock shoes 'gear'? if so I would have to define gear further as that which is not worn (crampons are in an interesting position)

In reply to rogerwebb:

I'd say they are more gear than clothing, and crampons are definitely not the latter.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well we'll have to agree to disagree

In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Out of interest, what has summer sun got to do with it? Surely the test (if there is to be a test) is around the other parameters - is it dry, is it vegetated, does it get climbed. That might or might not be on sunny crags.

In reply to rogerwebb:
I have nothing against aid climbing. It's a separate branch of climbing with its own challenges, which are very different to winter climbing. Rather, I think it's the 'winter/mixer climbing is aid climbing' proponents who often seem to see it as somehow inferior to rock climbing because it's aid climbing (I know you don't think so but some people seem to).

To my mind, the essence of aid climbing is climbing ON fixed gear, not WITH mobile tools. I can see what you're saying but to my mind placing a tool, pulling up and placing it again to carry on is fundamentally different to placing a wire/peg/whatever, clipping into it on an etrier so that you don't have to support your own weight or think about having to move the piece and then placing another fixed piece of gear to carry on (I know that's a bit simplistic as sometimes with aid you have to pull on the gear with your hands but that's still different as you're probably still stood on an etrier when doing it and it's still a fixed piece of gear).

In reply to Robert Durran:
I think easy mountain rock routes are much more interesting (and worth the walk in) as winter routes but I'll admit that's partly because I have no real interest in easy mountain rock routes...

In reply to Misha:

Whether it's aid or free climbing, winter climbing is the best variety of climbing in the UK.
That may be a minority opinion but it's certainly mine and it looks like it will be game on again in the next few days.

Hope you are able to get out.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Oh Roger you devil!

In reply to Misha:


Odd comment! For a V Diff climber, Savage Slit would provide a brilliant outing, well worth the walk, just like a **** E4 or whatever would for you. The first time I did it aged 19, it was as a solo in the last light of a stunning June evening after doing Steeple for the first time with a bivi on the plateau afterwards. I still remember it as an amazing experience.

In reply to French Erick:

Guilty as libelled

In reply to Misha:


This appears to me to be more of an academic debate regarding axes being points of aid than anything else. I don't read any snobbery into the comments about aid. Practically speaking I think we all know that in the broader sense the style and ethic of winter climbing is essentially that of trad.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I find it more in the style and ethic of no holds barred cage fighting - just glad to escape with my life and if that involves using aid, who cares. But maybe that's because I'm crap.

In reply to Mr. Lee:


Yes.

In reply to rogerwebb:
We can agree there!

In reply to Mr. Lee:
Yes, I suppose it's just semantics.

In reply to MrRiley:

Ahh, so this is where the annual argument is hiding. I was getting worried it wouldn't appear

Merry Christmas everyone! May our frustrations evaporate in the wake of winter's return in the new year! Amazing how little any of this seems to matter once battle is joined and all you can think about is whether that ice smear really is solid enough to hold a front point and your axe starts ever so gently pulling through that piece of "bomber" turf. Mmmm!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I am really with you on this one Robert. Perhaps it stems from doing winter routes in the 60's and 70's with gear and protection that todays protagonists would not recognise but I find that the days that i thought that I was going to die are the ones that stand out in my memories. Mind you I have still not forgiven the climber on Point Five who fell off in front of me when I was soloing! Whether I agree with all of the posters on this site, or not, is not important to me but I do love all of the passion that they have for climbing and in that I feel that we have a common bond.
I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and great climbing in the New Year.