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Wanted; Aspiring mountain leader/ guide for N.Wales on 27/12/15

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 browndog33 21 Dec 2015
Hi,
As title, me and my nephew would like to spend the day walking/ scrambling in Snowdonia on the 27/12/15 and was wondering if any aspiring mountain leader would be willing to guide us FOC for the day?

Mark.
2
In reply to browndog33:

That's got to be a troll!!
10/10 for cheek tho
1
OP browndog33 21 Dec 2015
In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:
No its not a troll, and why is it cheeky?

I thought that aspiring ML's aren't allowed to charge and actually need to log a certain amount of hours instructing non paying 'customers' to obtain their ML award?
M.
Post edited at 19:44
 Fiona Reid 21 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:
> I thought that aspiring ML's aren't allowed to charge and actually need to log a certain amount of hours instructing non paying 'customers' to obtain their ML award?

Neither of the two ML (summer or winter) awards require the leader to log hours. The ML also doesn't cover scrambling.

The awards you're thinking of are MIA (Mountain Instructor Award) and MIC (Mountain Instructor Certificate). These both require a period of consolidation and for the apsiring instructor to gain experience with non paying clients between training and assessment. The MIA is a summer conditions award and the MIC the winter version thus if there's any snow you'd potentially want a trainee MIC.

You may well find a trainee MIA/MIC that's available on the 27th, however, you could of course pay someone (a qualified MIA/MIC) to take you both out for the day....That way you'll know the person has been assessed, is fully insured etc etc.
Post edited at 21:51
 Wainers44 21 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

Well FWIW I thought it was a reasonable request mate. I seem to recall aspirant MIA's asking the same question (in reverse, if you know what I mean!)?

Hope someone fancies a day on the hill with you guys!
 ianstevens 21 Dec 2015
In reply to Fiona Reid:

ML covers scrambling if you don't plan to use a rope - so is typically grade I in good nick with a competent party.

To the OP: asking for free instruction is cheeky AF. If you want a guide, pay for one.
4
 jezb1 21 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

http://www.mountain-training.org/associations/ami

The AMI have a nice new site you can look at and includes an instructor search facility if you want a qualified Mountaineering Instructor.
 timjones 22 Dec 2015
In reply to ianstevens:

> ML covers scrambling if you don't plan to use a rope - so is typically grade I in good nick with a competent party.

> To the OP: asking for free instruction is cheeky AF. If you want a guide, pay for one.

TBF it's pretty common to see aspirant instructors offering their services FOC when they want to bolster their logbooks.

What's sauce for the goose......
 ianstevens 22 Dec 2015
In reply to timjones:

> TBF it's pretty common to see aspirant instructors offering their services FOC when they want to bolster their logbooks.

> What's sauce for the goose......

When services are offered free of charge it's a completely different kettle of fish to requesting someone's services in my eyes.
4
 timjones 22 Dec 2015
In reply to ianstevens:

> When services are offered free of charge it's a completely different kettle of fish to requesting someone's services in my eyes.

It's a very subtle distinction in my eyes.

I assists think it's kind of cheeky to offer services FOC for personal gain and then start charging at an arbitrary point.
2
 galpinos 22 Dec 2015
In reply to timjones:

> I assists think it's kind of cheeky to offer services FOC for personal gain and then start charging at an arbitrary point.

I'm not sure passing the assessment and achieving the qualification falls under the description of "arbitrary point" in my view?
1
In reply to timjones:

There's nothing subtle about the difference in offering something for free & requesting something for free
1
 maxsmith 22 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

seems a pretty reasonable request to me, lots of mia's tout for qmds on these forums, why not the other way round?
1
 ianstevens 22 Dec 2015
In reply to timjones:

It's not subtle at all. Me offering to knock you up an extension would be very different to you asking me to do it. It's a service nonetheless, so why should a service offered in the mountains be free?

If by "charging at an arbitary point" you mean once an instructor has gained the relevant quals and is assuming full responsibility for a clients safety with associated insurance costs etc., it is in no way arbitrary. As for aspirants offering services for free, there is ALWAYS a caveat that they are looking to build experience and the going out climbing/walking/whatever with them is at your own risk. Not the case with most qualified operators. So quite a big difference really.
2
 Wainers44 22 Dec 2015
In reply to jezb1:

Thanks for the link. Interesting site and good advice.
 Brass Nipples 22 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

I presume you are offering your services as a client for free?

 Hyphin 22 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

I've been on both sides, taken out less experienced folk (for my log book) and been out with more experienced folk going for more advanced qualifications; nothing wrong with asking.

Your OP would seem to indicate you do not have a lot of experience; based on apparent unfamiliarity with roles of SML, WML, MIA, MIC, if wrong my apologies. However, it might be worth letting folk have a clearer idea of your experience level, how well equipped you are and a clearer idea of your aspirations.

Anyone who is consolidating their training in preparation for MIC assessment is likely to have harnesses and helmets that they can lend; they are less likely to carry a big load of boots and waterproofs to fit all sizes so the whole thing may be a non starter, if indeed you are both completely new to mountaineering. Remembering that if we get some decent conditions, what would have been hill walking can rapidly become mountaineering, hence a Winter ML qualification.
OP browndog33 22 Dec 2015
In reply to ianstevens:
Hello Ian,
Thanks for your opinion, please note that it is your opinion and not fact. Please also note that I did not ask for your (negative) opinion in the title of this post.

FYI, The last few weeks have been quite tough for myself, my sisters, brother, and especially mother. You see my (very lovely) mum has been in great mental and physical health all her life but in the last two weeks she has started to have continuous auditory hallucinations (hearing voices talking about her) and has started suffering from severe persecutory (sp?) delusions (she thinks the neighbours are going to rob/ kill her), overall its looking highly likely that my mum has dementia and that we have started to lose her. This is quite hard to come to terms with. I've had a lot of time off during the last few weeks to try and look after my mum as she is 79 years old and lives by herself. All in all the last fortnight has been like living in a bad dream (probably for all concerned). Yesterday I decided that I needed to escape for one day at least to try and make sense of the enormous change that our family are now only just starting to go through. I've visited Snowdonia several times and already feel a love for the place, and yesterday I realised that I need to escape for one day at least into the solace of the hills to try and begin to comprehend the monumental change that our family is currently going through. However due to the time I've had off work during the last few weeks (I'm self employed so don't get paid for time off), I'm short of cash. Therefore I have three options; 1. Don't go to Snowdonia. 2. Go into the hills in winter without supervision. 3. Ask if any trainee mountain instructor might want to guide us around Snowdonia for the day in order to log some instructor hours towards their qualification. I was cheeky and asked for the latter.

I hope the above helps shed a bit more light on why I started this thread. As stated at the start of this post- I didn't ask for your opinion but I got it. Now you can have mine. I think you are a prick, I really do.
Mark.
Post edited at 20:33
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OP browndog33 22 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

(Genuinely) thanks for all the (helpful) advice above.
M.
OP browndog33 22 Dec 2015
In reply to Hyphin:

Hello Hyphen,
Thanks for your post.

I knew when I wrote the original post that I hadn't Included much information about our skill set/ experience etc. My thinking was that I if I made contact with an aspiring MI I could answer their questions directly.

Thanks,
Mark.
OP browndog33 22 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

I've decided to bow out of this post as I don't like arguing with people and really don't need negative criticism atm.

If anyone would like to to show us the ropes in Snowdonia please contact me by PM.

Thanks again for the help above.
M.
1
 alasdair19 23 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

if nobody responds ask over on UK hill talk for advice on a good low level route would be almost as good for your head maybe. anyway if present weather continues it's wet autumn conditions!
 timjones 23 Dec 2015
In reply to galpinos:

Arbitrary probably isn't the right word, but you must agree that it's a little bizarre that you can do the same job before assessment as long as you don't charge?

 timjones 23 Dec 2015
In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

> There's nothing subtle about the difference in offering something for free & requesting something for free

It's going to appear pretty subtle when award holders blur the lines by offering their services FoC in order to fill their logbooks.
 timjones 23 Dec 2015
In reply to ianstevens:

> It's not subtle at all. Me offering to knock you up an extension would be very different to you asking me to do it. It's a service nonetheless, so why should a service offered in the mountains be free?

There is an enormous difference between knocking up an extension and a days hillwalking. This is more like asking a friend to give you hand to move the furniture into your new extension IMO.

There is a strong tradition of giving others a hand to move furniture FoC, there is a strong tradition of taking less existing friends hillwalking FoC. Unless I've missed out there isn't a strong tradition of building extensions FoC.

> If by "charging at an arbitary point" you mean once an instructor has gained the relevant quals and is assuming full responsibility for a clients safety with associated insurance costs etc., it is in no way arbitrary. As for aspirants offering services for free, there is ALWAYS a caveat that they are looking to build experience and the going out climbing/walking/whatever with them is at your own risk. Not the case with most qualified operators. So quite a big difference really.

Time after time we see aspirant instructors offering their services FoC under some wishy, washy disclaimer. Is pretty poor form to criticise someone for making the same request from the other side!

I may be mistaken but I thought that they did have some form of insurance during the consolidation phase of their training as long as they didn't charge for their services?

 timjones 23 Dec 2015
In reply to browndog33:

> Therefore I have three options; 1. Don't go to Snowdonia. 2. Go into the hills in winter without supervision. 3. Ask if any trainee mountain instructor might want to guide us around Snowdonia for the day in order to log some instructor hours towards their qualification.

Sorry to hear that you're having a hard time at present.

Can I suggest that you keep an eye on the weather?

We aren't experiencing typical winter weather at present. Whilst Sunday is still a fair way out it looks like option 2 could turn out to be a perfectly reasonable choice if you take warm clothing and get an early start.

I can't claim to be an aspirant instructor but if only I knew what my family/work commitments over the weekend were I'd be sore tempted to drive up and offer to help out with a walk and maybe easy scramble based on 28 years of experience. I'm amazed and a little saddened that no-one else has taken you up on this fine excuse for a day in the hills

 wbo 23 Dec 2015
In reply to ianstevens: I tihnk the original post is a bit cheeky but hardly outrageous. But we frequently see unqualified people here offering to take people out for free. As you point out , the caveat is that they are unqualified and you need to look after yourself - they might be super, might be hopeless.

At that point, where is the gain to me, going with the unqualified leader. I'm doing him a favour as he can experiement on me so he will be in a position to make financial gain. What do I get in return? Is he going to pay me for facilitating him getting a qualification?


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