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Thinking about a long haul rock trip for next winter dec-feb ie australia, oman, uae, south africa or south america. Looking for a venue suitable for vs/ f5c leaders with preference for multi pitch routes. Any suggestions, info on venues, grades, style of climbing, accommodation, flights, guidebooks appreciated. Thanks Grumpy
In reply to Removed UserGRUMPY MONKEY:
To me, that sounds like Morocco and especially stuff around Taffraoute might fit the bill.
Wadi Rum might also be it. But from what I've heard from my friends is that to get the most out of it, you best be climbing f6b/6c trad (~E3-E4'ish).
I'm sure Australia will have stuff at the grades, and the routes there are more or less well established.
Oman, UAE, SA and South Americas are pretty unknown to me, so can't really comment all that much. Except my gut says that Oman & UAE might be more adventure climbing (ie. not all that established routes, guidebooks etc.).
> ...Looking for a venue suitable for vs/ f5c leaders...
To me, that sounds like Morocco and especially stuff around Taffraoute might fit the bill.
Wadi Rum might also be it. But from what I've heard from my friends is that to get the most out of it, you best be climbing f6b/6c trad (~E3-E4'ish).
I'm sure Australia will have stuff at the grades, and the routes there are more or less well established.
Oman, UAE, SA and South Americas are pretty unknown to me, so can't really comment all that much. Except my gut says that Oman & UAE might be more adventure climbing (ie. not all that established routes, guidebooks etc.).
In reply to Removed UserGRUMPY MONKEY:
UAE/Oman border - I wrote the original CD guide -- certainly lots to do for a VS leader - however you do need to be able to cope with less than perfect rock. To get the most out of it you'd need to be pretty happy leading HVS in the UK. I was a steady VS leader in the Lakes and found a lot of the UAE VS's a bit on the stiff side. The easier routes tend to be a bit chossy. It's 15 years since I was involved in the scene over there, and things have changed a lot with border fences and what were popular areas being out of bounds nowadays. There's a lot of good sport climbing that's been developed in recent years
UAE/Oman border - I wrote the original CD guide -- certainly lots to do for a VS leader - however you do need to be able to cope with less than perfect rock. To get the most out of it you'd need to be pretty happy leading HVS in the UK. I was a steady VS leader in the Lakes and found a lot of the UAE VS's a bit on the stiff side. The easier routes tend to be a bit chossy. It's 15 years since I was involved in the scene over there, and things have changed a lot with border fences and what were popular areas being out of bounds nowadays. There's a lot of good sport climbing that's been developed in recent years
In reply to HeMa:
Not true.
There are brilliant routes with straightforward descents (some directly by abseil) starting at about HVS. Many of the superb classics (Inferno, Flight of Fancy, Beauty, Pillar of Wisdom, Black Magic, Merlin's Wand, Star of Abu Judaidah, Haj, Desert Rats in the Shade..........) are in the HVS to E2 bracket. Many say that Lionheart (E3) is as good as it gets and I wouldn't disagree. There are, of course, many rarely climbed much, much more serious routes.
And perhaps the best thing about Rum is doing the "Bedouin" routes which take lines of least resistance up the mountains with often fantastically complex route finding and extraordinary rock scenery. These start at about Mod. Wadi Rum is an absolute paradise for the highly competent V. Diff climber.
I've just returned from a sixth trip to Rum. It was very, very quiet, tourism having largely collapsed due to worries about the general Middle East situation. I would say there is absolutely nothing to worry about in southern Jordan. You can now fly to Aqaba with Turkish airlines and be at Rum by taxi in less than an hour. Go!
> Wadi Rum might also be it. But from what I've heard from my friends is that to get the most out of it, you best be climbing f6b/6c trad (~E3-E4'ish).
Not true.
There are brilliant routes with straightforward descents (some directly by abseil) starting at about HVS. Many of the superb classics (Inferno, Flight of Fancy, Beauty, Pillar of Wisdom, Black Magic, Merlin's Wand, Star of Abu Judaidah, Haj, Desert Rats in the Shade..........) are in the HVS to E2 bracket. Many say that Lionheart (E3) is as good as it gets and I wouldn't disagree. There are, of course, many rarely climbed much, much more serious routes.
And perhaps the best thing about Rum is doing the "Bedouin" routes which take lines of least resistance up the mountains with often fantastically complex route finding and extraordinary rock scenery. These start at about Mod. Wadi Rum is an absolute paradise for the highly competent V. Diff climber.
I've just returned from a sixth trip to Rum. It was very, very quiet, tourism having largely collapsed due to worries about the general Middle East situation. I would say there is absolutely nothing to worry about in southern Jordan. You can now fly to Aqaba with Turkish airlines and be at Rum by taxi in less than an hour. Go!
Post edited at 09:44
In reply to Robert Durran:
Aren't Beuty and Merlins wand around f6a+/b or so.
Which is still besides the point. Almost none of the routes listed above are VS/f5.
Which was my point. Sure the Bedouin routes are at a more measable grade, and can be great.
But the uber classics (Merlin and Beauty) are not the the f5 range (nor VS for that matter).
> There are brilliant routes with straightforward descents (some directly by abseil) starting at about HVS. Many of the superb classics (Inferno, Flight of Fancy, Beauty, Pillar of Wisdom, Black Magic, Merlin's Wand, Star of Abu Judaidah, Haj, Desert Rats in the Shade..........)
Aren't Beuty and Merlins wand around f6a+/b or so.
Which is still besides the point. Almost none of the routes listed above are VS/f5.
Which was my point. Sure the Bedouin routes are at a more measable grade, and can be great.
But the uber classics (Merlin and Beauty) are not the the f5 range (nor VS for that matter).
In reply to HeMa:
The area might not be ideal for the OP, but I was replying to your post in which you incorrectly claimed that you really need to be climbing E3/4 to get the best out of the place.
Beauty is probably E2 5c (if, as is now usual, you do the 4th pitch direct) and Merlin's Wand E1 5b/c. I don't consider French grades sensibly applicable to trad routes
The area might not be ideal for the OP, but I was replying to your post in which you incorrectly claimed that you really need to be climbing E3/4 to get the best out of the place.
> Aren't Beauty and Merlins wand around f6a+/b or so.
Beauty is probably E2 5c (if, as is now usual, you do the 4th pitch direct) and Merlin's Wand E1 5b/c. I don't consider French grades sensibly applicable to trad routes
In reply to Robert Durran:
And this is where you flock things up.
Beauty is f6a and Merlins is f6a+. That's the grade they were given and also in the topo.
And depending on your skill sets, you might need to be a bit better. Which again, is in direct correlation on what I said, that to get the most out of it... best be climbing 6b-6c.
The e-grade translation is meaningless and only gives an idea (E3-E4 was my bad "translation", as was your E1 and E2, though perhaps they are closer to the truth).
Which sort of reminds me. Would you venture up a multipitch route on soft sandstone, alpine character and at your maximun os grade?
I prolly would not, as I intend to live longer... so again, being able to climb E3 will make the E1s or E2s a much more enjoyable... rather than a gripping experience.
> The area might not be ideal for the OP, but I was replying to your post in which you incorrectly claimed that you really need to be climbing E3/4 to get the best out of the place.
> Beauty is probably E2 5c (if, as is now usual, you do the 4th pitch direct) and Merlin's Wand E1 5b/c. I don't consider French grades sensibly applicable to trad routes
And this is where you flock things up.
Beauty is f6a and Merlins is f6a+. That's the grade they were given and also in the topo.
And depending on your skill sets, you might need to be a bit better. Which again, is in direct correlation on what I said, that to get the most out of it... best be climbing 6b-6c.
The e-grade translation is meaningless and only gives an idea (E3-E4 was my bad "translation", as was your E1 and E2, though perhaps they are closer to the truth).
Which sort of reminds me. Would you venture up a multipitch route on soft sandstone, alpine character and at your maximun os grade?
I prolly would not, as I intend to live longer... so again, being able to climb E3 will make the E1s or E2s a much more enjoyable... rather than a gripping experience.
In reply to HeMa:
Flock? Goats, sheep or camels?
Fair enough. People happy with French grades for trad routes can interpret as they wish.
Again, to most reading UKC, this would relate better to sport climbing (which the routes in question are definitely not!). I am absolutely certain that almost everyone reading my post would find a UK adjectival grade far more useful as an indication of whether they could sensibly get on the routes - which is why I gave them.
Bollocks. Have you done the routes? I've done all but one of those I've mentioned; In fact I've done Merlin's Wand twice and The Beauty three times, so I do know what I am talking about; the UK grades I have given are perfectly good assessmenmts - no "translation" just direct experience. Or are you just guessing E grades from a conversion table (in which case the fact that you are so far out just confirms what I said about the inadequacy of the French grades)
The routes I mentioned are not of alpine character. They are conventional multipitch trad routes on solid rock and are perfectly sensible objectives for competent climbers operating at those grades in the UK - that is why they have become the relatively well travelled classics of the area.
> And this is where you flock things up.
Flock? Goats, sheep or camels?
> Beauty is f6a and Merlins is f6a+. That's the grade they were given and also in the topo.
Fair enough. People happy with French grades for trad routes can interpret as they wish.
> And depending on your skill sets, you might need to be a bit better. Which again, is in direct correlation on what I said, that to get the most out of it... best be climbing 6b-6c.
Again, to most reading UKC, this would relate better to sport climbing (which the routes in question are definitely not!). I am absolutely certain that almost everyone reading my post would find a UK adjectival grade far more useful as an indication of whether they could sensibly get on the routes - which is why I gave them.
> The e-grade translation is meaningless and only gives an idea (E3-E4 was my bad "translation", as was your E1 and E2, though perhaps they are closer to the truth).
Bollocks. Have you done the routes? I've done all but one of those I've mentioned; In fact I've done Merlin's Wand twice and The Beauty three times, so I do know what I am talking about; the UK grades I have given are perfectly good assessmenmts - no "translation" just direct experience. Or are you just guessing E grades from a conversion table (in which case the fact that you are so far out just confirms what I said about the inadequacy of the French grades)
> Which sort of reminds me. Would you venture up a multipitch route on soft sandstone, alpine character and at your maximun os grade?
The routes I mentioned are not of alpine character. They are conventional multipitch trad routes on solid rock and are perfectly sensible objectives for competent climbers operating at those grades in the UK - that is why they have become the relatively well travelled classics of the area.
1
In reply to Removed UserGRUMPY MONKEY:
Western Cape would be perfect for your requirements. Superb quality multi pitch in the grade you mention. Other advantages are : English Speaking, drive on left if you hire a car, beautiful scenery and weather, beneficial exchange rate against the Rand, world class cuisine and wine, loads to see and do on non climbing days, only 2 hr difference time zone so no jet lag.
http://mcsacapetown.co.za/
Western Cape would be perfect for your requirements. Superb quality multi pitch in the grade you mention. Other advantages are : English Speaking, drive on left if you hire a car, beautiful scenery and weather, beneficial exchange rate against the Rand, world class cuisine and wine, loads to see and do on non climbing days, only 2 hr difference time zone so no jet lag.
http://mcsacapetown.co.za/
In reply to Robert Durran:
Of course I am using a conversion table. The routes are 6a and 6a+ after all, your E1 something and E2 something are your opinions...
The routes were originally given the grades of 6a and 6a+, and that's absolutely what they are. Your personal wish to implement your grades elsewhere has nothing to do with the facts.
And to make the point, that E-grades are problematic... well, since I had to use a conversion table... it means that they are infact far from perfect.
For majority of climbers, stating f6a and f6a+ trad is all the information that is needed.
Which brings us to the original point. That to get most out of Wadi Rum, well the OP isn't that with VS or f5.
> Or are you just guessing E grades from a conversion table (in which case the fact that you are so far out just confirms what I said about the inadequacy of the French grades)
Of course I am using a conversion table. The routes are 6a and 6a+ after all, your E1 something and E2 something are your opinions...
The routes were originally given the grades of 6a and 6a+, and that's absolutely what they are. Your personal wish to implement your grades elsewhere has nothing to do with the facts.
And to make the point, that E-grades are problematic... well, since I had to use a conversion table... it means that they are infact far from perfect.
For majority of climbers, stating f6a and f6a+ trad is all the information that is needed.
Which brings us to the original point. That to get most out of Wadi Rum, well the OP isn't that with VS or f5.
In reply to HeMa:
So I take it you havn't actually done the routes in question about which you apparently feel qualified to comment on here.
And do you think that any conversion table can sensibly convert a French grade which only reflects aspects of physical difficulty into a UK grade which takes all aspects of difficulty into account? No, of course it can't, which is why a UK grade given from personal experience is going to be far more accurate. This is why you are wrong and I am right.
Of course they are! And the 6a ands 6a+ are just the opinions of the first ascentionists and I have no reason to doubt them.
This really is stupid nonsense. Just because the first ascentionists happened to be using French grades doesn't mean the UK or any other grading system can't be applied just as accurately to the routes. I have given my assessments of the UK grades because most people on here are going to find them far more useful then the French grade.
Eh? If you mean that the conversion table is far from perfect then you are absolutely correct. Which is why I thought it worthwhile giving E grades based on a huge amount of personal experience and on having actually done the routes in question.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean a UK grade isn't far more useful, especially for UK climbers
As an example, Merlin's Wand is given 6a+ in the guidebook and is probably E1 (a short 5b/c crux by bomber gear) while another excellent route I did there a couple of weeks ago, Wonderland, is given 5+. The 5+ is probably correct but this does not mean that someone who copes fine with Merlin's Wand is going to find Wonderland easier; in fact many E1 climbers would probably have a scary nightmare on it. In fact it is probably E1 4c/5a (which tells you a lot!) and a much more serious undertaking (which is why I didn't include it on my list).
> Of course I am using a conversion table.
So I take it you havn't actually done the routes in question about which you apparently feel qualified to comment on here.
And do you think that any conversion table can sensibly convert a French grade which only reflects aspects of physical difficulty into a UK grade which takes all aspects of difficulty into account? No, of course it can't, which is why a UK grade given from personal experience is going to be far more accurate. This is why you are wrong and I am right.
> The routes are 6a and 6a+ after all, your E1 something and E2 something are your opinions...
Of course they are! And the 6a ands 6a+ are just the opinions of the first ascentionists and I have no reason to doubt them.
> The routes were originally given the grades of 6a and 6a+, and that's absolutely what they are. Your personal wish to implement your grades elsewhere has nothing to do with the facts.
This really is stupid nonsense. Just because the first ascentionists happened to be using French grades doesn't mean the UK or any other grading system can't be applied just as accurately to the routes. I have given my assessments of the UK grades because most people on here are going to find them far more useful then the French grade.
> And to make the point, that E-grades are problematic... well, since I had to use a conversion table... it means that they are infact far from perfect.
Eh? If you mean that the conversion table is far from perfect then you are absolutely correct. Which is why I thought it worthwhile giving E grades based on a huge amount of personal experience and on having actually done the routes in question.
> For majority of climbers, stating f6a and f6a+ trad is all the information that is needed.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean a UK grade isn't far more useful, especially for UK climbers
As an example, Merlin's Wand is given 6a+ in the guidebook and is probably E1 (a short 5b/c crux by bomber gear) while another excellent route I did there a couple of weeks ago, Wonderland, is given 5+. The 5+ is probably correct but this does not mean that someone who copes fine with Merlin's Wand is going to find Wonderland easier; in fact many E1 climbers would probably have a scary nightmare on it. In fact it is probably E1 4c/5a (which tells you a lot!) and a much more serious undertaking (which is why I didn't include it on my list).
Post edited at 13:58
In reply to HeMa:
I've been to Wadi Rum 4 times (ie getting on for a couple of months overall), haven't done any of the routes you and Robert have been discussing, but have done wonderful routes (incuding new ones in European trad style and some previously unrecorded Bedouin routes) up to HVS/E1. For a VS leader, with careful route selection and a willingness to enter into the spirit of the place, there's plenty to be going at.
But what keeps drawing me back -- like Robert, perhaps -- is the Bedouin routes and the opportunities for exploration. If "getting the most out of" a place is experiencing what's unique about it, then Wadi Rum offers abundant opportunities to climbers of more modest ability. Friends who accompanied me on one of my trips were looking for Utah-type sandstone climbing and came away disappointed. (Oh, and they reckoned Merlin's Wand to be E1 5b.) Each to their own.
> Wadi Rum might also be it. But from what I've heard from my friends is that to get the most out of it, you best be climbing f6b/6c trad (~E3-E4'ish).
I've been to Wadi Rum 4 times (ie getting on for a couple of months overall), haven't done any of the routes you and Robert have been discussing, but have done wonderful routes (incuding new ones in European trad style and some previously unrecorded Bedouin routes) up to HVS/E1. For a VS leader, with careful route selection and a willingness to enter into the spirit of the place, there's plenty to be going at.
But what keeps drawing me back -- like Robert, perhaps -- is the Bedouin routes and the opportunities for exploration. If "getting the most out of" a place is experiencing what's unique about it, then Wadi Rum offers abundant opportunities to climbers of more modest ability. Friends who accompanied me on one of my trips were looking for Utah-type sandstone climbing and came away disappointed. (Oh, and they reckoned Merlin's Wand to be E1 5b.) Each to their own.
Post edited at 16:37
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Can robert and hema get lost and continue their discussion elsewhere....from the original poster.
Everyone else thank you for suggestions. Ive been to Morocco several times the western cape suggestion sounds interesting.
Can robert and hema get lost and continue their discussion elsewhere....from the original poster.
Everyone else thank you for suggestions. Ive been to Morocco several times the western cape suggestion sounds interesting.
1
In reply to Removed UserGRUMPY MONKEY:
Apologies. I originally posted in good faith as, after six visits to Rum, I felt I was in as good a position as most to point out He Ma's incorrect assessment and give sound advice on the area. Unfortunately He Ma , as usual , as in the past on here, showed his complete inability to enter into any sort of informed or intelligent discussion about grades. I should probably just ignore his nonsense in future!
Anyway, if you want to do the brilliant Bedouin routes, like Solaris, I cannot recommend Rum highly enough. The more conventional routes I listed are in the HVS to E2 bracket. Maybe Solaris could recommend some slightly easier ones for you - I'd be interested as well since I'm already planning to go again in 2017 with a mixed group.
Oh, and you could have a brilliant trip to the South West USA in Dec. to Feb. Loads to do at VS or so in particular at Red Rocks. But maybe you have reasons not to go there since you didn't mention it in your OP.
> Can robert and hema get lost and continue their discussion elsewhere....from the original poster.
Apologies. I originally posted in good faith as, after six visits to Rum, I felt I was in as good a position as most to point out He Ma's incorrect assessment and give sound advice on the area. Unfortunately He Ma , as usual , as in the past on here, showed his complete inability to enter into any sort of informed or intelligent discussion about grades. I should probably just ignore his nonsense in future!
Anyway, if you want to do the brilliant Bedouin routes, like Solaris, I cannot recommend Rum highly enough. The more conventional routes I listed are in the HVS to E2 bracket. Maybe Solaris could recommend some slightly easier ones for you - I'd be interested as well since I'm already planning to go again in 2017 with a mixed group.
Oh, and you could have a brilliant trip to the South West USA in Dec. to Feb. Loads to do at VS or so in particular at Red Rocks. But maybe you have reasons not to go there since you didn't mention it in your OP.
Post edited at 22:15
In reply to Robert Durran:
I can't put my hand on my guidebook at the moment, and my notebooks will take quite a bit of deciphering, so I'll try to post after Christmas. If I forget me, do PM me.
I can't put my hand on my guidebook at the moment, and my notebooks will take quite a bit of deciphering, so I'll try to post after Christmas. If I forget me, do PM me.
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