UKC

I'm not sure if there is much of a point in writing this, but here it is nonetheless...

I was in Snowdonia this weekend and I had 2 very nice days out, one on Y Gribin (Glyders) and one on Y Garn (the normal path from Llyn Idwal). Both days were very enjoyable, and as much as I would have liked to have been climbing gullies or winter only routes, I checked the BMC Cwm Idwal winter climbing information page and saw that the turf was nowhere near frozen. The snow was very soft and no crampons were required (on the paths I was on).

In fact, even without this information page, it was still obvious that underfoot the ground was not frozen especially as you could see grass/mud poking out of the snow in gullies such as Banana Gully on Y Garn.

Despite this plethora of information and observations, I still saw people in Banana Gully and Hidden gully, hacking their way up with no regards to the vegetation beneath. The climbs can't have even been that great as it was mostly unconsolidated powder that was less than 5 days old all the way up.

Without starting a witch hunt, the pair in hidden gully are on their 'first winter climb' seem uneducated to this, so if this can highlight the importance of doing winter routes in the correct conditions then it's a good outcome, also, you might want to plan your descent and take a map/compass with you next time! I cannot say anything about the person in Banana Gully, but I presume similar.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/idwal

In reply to BStar:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-judge-winter-climbing-conditions

In reply to BStar:
You climb on snow, not through it. Otherwise it is pointless as 'ice climbing' flowing water.

In reply to BStar:

As a winter climbing newbie keen not to replicate such mistakes can I ask if it is seen as ok to tackle easy gullies full of soft snow without crampons on and with ice axe held in hand just in case of slip?

I assume this wouldn't do any more damage than summer scrambling?

(Assume I'd have crampons in backpack if did come across ice)

In reply to noteviljoe:

It's a rather bad idea. You won't learn anything from it. If you are unlucky and there's a large patch of snow in the gully you may even trigger a highly localised avalanche, which could knock you off your feet and down the gully. Or slip on a patch of ice.

Also if you're a newbie, you've maybe never had the joy of trying to put your crampons on your boots on a steep slope. It's not that easy.

Wait till things are properly in and then give it a go.

In reply to noteviljoe:
You might not cause much damage but it sounds precarious.

In reply to noteviljoe:

I advise you read up on avalanche awareness before proceeding further.

How good is your navigation in a white out?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

On avalanche awareness - reading up (currently looking at the MLT Winter Skills book) & will continue to do so.

On winter navigation - very little experience. Navigated off Helvellen when it was snowing & quite limited visibility, but no experience in true white out. Reasonable summer navigation skills. Would never head out (as per example in OP comment) without compass and map.

Happy to back off stuff & switch to easier plans when stuff looks sketchy.

In reply to noteviljoe:
One other thing to keep in mind is that the easy gullies if not consolidated will have quite a bit of loose stuff hiding underneath the powdered snow. Which makes the climbing not much fun and probably dangerous. I went up SCNL and had a look on Sat just gone although everything felt great. We looked at Twisiting, SC and NC gully and for us they were definately not in the condition that we would like to climb with loads of loose rock underneath powdered snow.

Hopefully not much longer to wait to get them in the nick that they are meant to be climbed in.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to noteviljoe:

The key point I was trying to make, is that winter gullies rely on frozen turf and hard snow to be sustainable (not hacking away at the grass) and safe. Traditional summer scrambling routes or normal paths are a good option for when the ground is not frozen but there is snow. Use MWIS / Met Office / BMC Idwal page to make informed decisions before heading out, especially as the BMC idwal page gives hourly updates of the turf temperatures, there is no excuse!

In reply to noteviljoe:

Ok it sounds like you need to brush up on both. Navigation in a white out is different to summer navigation, and heading up gullies full of powder snow is a bad plan normally as they tend to avalanche too frequently to make it worth while. In poor conditions I think you'd get a lot of benefit just heading out for a winter walk.

In reply to BStar:

Take a look at the BMCs Snowdonia "white guide" which discusses appropriate conditions, as well as some areas to avoid for environmental reasons.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=889

In reply to noteviljoe:


But what would be the point?

In reply to BStar:

Well done bringing the issue up. We have to keep banging away about this and just hope all the first-timers do look at this forum.
The importance of navigation skills is also critical to bring to people's notice. It seems that even with winter climbing many many people are having a go without much if any mountain experience. You need to walk before you can run or in this case climb.