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Dry tooling on established rock routes. Is it bad or good and when might it be acceptable?
Winter climbing is common on mountain routes that were once rock climbs. Why is ok in the mountains?
Cheers
Matt
Post edited at 23:12
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Why do bad things happen to good people?
> Winter climbing is common on mountain routes that were once rock climbs. Why is ok in the mountains?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
A few billion years after the heat death of the universe is the current planned time for revisiting this topic.
> when might it be acceptable?
A few billion years after the heat death of the universe is the current planned time for revisiting this topic.
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
I heard the Embarkments would be good to practice this thing called drytoolin'
I heard the Embarkments would be good to practice this thing called drytoolin'
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In reply to HeMa:
Oh please don't give the muppets ideas. One clown every 20 years is enough
> I heard the Embarkments would be good to practice this thing called drytoolin'
Oh please don't give the muppets ideas. One clown every 20 years is enough
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Interesting that you seem to think dry tooling is the same as winter climbing. That is a common problem.
Interesting that you seem to think dry tooling is the same as winter climbing. That is a common problem.
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Best place is up the front of your nearest police station. The staff there will be very supportive and helpful, and might even bring out refreshments.
> Dry tooling on established rock routes. Is it bad or good and when might it be acceptable?
Best place is up the front of your nearest police station. The staff there will be very supportive and helpful, and might even bring out refreshments.
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Is it called "dry tooling" as those who practice it are never going to get their tools wet?
Is it called "dry tooling" as those who practice it are never going to get their tools wet?
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Very, very bad
Never
Because they are covered in snow and ice hence WINTER climbing, not drytooling.
Read this (and the 672 comments posted after it)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59279
> Dry tooling on established rock routes. Is it bad or good >
Very, very bad
> and when might it be acceptable? >
Never
> Winter climbing is common on mountain routes that were once rock climbs. Why is ok in the mountains? >
Because they are covered in snow and ice hence WINTER climbing, not drytooling.
Read this (and the 672 comments posted after it)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59279
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In reply to pec:
No, these days you can do winter climbing on routes that are not covered in snow and ice.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=268811
It's called 'Winter drytooling'
> Because they are covered in snow and ice hence WINTER climbing, not drytooling.
No, these days you can do winter climbing on routes that are not covered in snow and ice.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=268811
It's called 'Winter drytooling'
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In reply to Fredt:
I think you need to look at that photo again - the buttress is hoared up. With dry tooling the rock is completely black i.e. dry, hence the name! Why do people find these things so difficult to understand?
I think you need to look at that photo again - the buttress is hoared up. With dry tooling the rock is completely black i.e. dry, hence the name! Why do people find these things so difficult to understand?
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Look, there's only one rule when it comes to tooling black rock routes:
"It is ok if you are famous."
Wally
Look, there's only one rule when it comes to tooling black rock routes:
"It is ok if you are famous."
Wally
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
I can't see the problem really, if you want to do it just do it. Life's too short to bother with these party poopers
I can't see the problem really, if you want to do it just do it. Life's too short to bother with these party poopers
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
I was responding to the poster who said that winter climbing was OK when the rock was covered in snow and ice. I pointed out that although that used to be the agreed criteria, because it was based on the concept of the tools not touching the rock, but this was no longer the case.
> I think you need to look at that photo again - the buttress is hoared up. With dry tooling the rock is completely black i.e. dry, hence the name! Why do people find these things so difficult to understand?
I was responding to the poster who said that winter climbing was OK when the rock was covered in snow and ice. I pointed out that although that used to be the agreed criteria, because it was based on the concept of the tools not touching the rock, but this was no longer the case.
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In reply to Fredt:
What's all that white stuff in the photo?
> No, these days you can do winter climbing on routes that are not covered in snow and ice.
What's all that white stuff in the photo?
In reply to Fredt:
It's shocking to see a severe plastered with chalk like that. You don't need it, people!
It's shocking to see a severe plastered with chalk like that. You don't need it, people!
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In reply to GrahamD:
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that.
Assuming the reason for people aversion to tooling on rock routes is damage to them. If that is the case why is there a double standard in the mountains. Is the reason for peoples distaste perception rather than ethics.
My question really was does mixed in the mountains do more or less damage than dry tooling at a crag?
> Interesting that you seem to think dry tooling is the same as winter climbing. That is a common problem.
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that.
Assuming the reason for people aversion to tooling on rock routes is damage to them. If that is the case why is there a double standard in the mountains. Is the reason for peoples distaste perception rather than ethics.
My question really was does mixed in the mountains do more or less damage than dry tooling at a crag?
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Less damage in the mountains as less people can be arsed to walk in to climb.
Less damage in the mountains as less people can be arsed to walk in to climb.
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Obviously about the same level of damage per ascent whether in the mountains or at low level.
As to your original question about acceptance. It's a consensus as to what is acceptable for climbing in winter and what isn't. Mountain routes lend themselves better to being climbed in winter because of the increased drainage or vegetation. Sometime looseness. There's also tradition to consider. Savage Slit for example was first climbed in winter in 1957, which was only 12 years after the summer ascent. So it is traditionally a summer and winter route.
> My question really was does mixed in the mountains do more or less damage than dry tooling at a crag?
Obviously about the same level of damage per ascent whether in the mountains or at low level.
As to your original question about acceptance. It's a consensus as to what is acceptable for climbing in winter and what isn't. Mountain routes lend themselves better to being climbed in winter because of the increased drainage or vegetation. Sometime looseness. There's also tradition to consider. Savage Slit for example was first climbed in winter in 1957, which was only 12 years after the summer ascent. So it is traditionally a summer and winter route.
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In reply to Fredt:
If the tools don't touch rock at all, that's full on ice or snow climbing and you don't get that with mixed routes.
I think what you are saying is standards are slipping and people are doing routes in less wintery conditions. I don't know if that's true as I wasn't winter climbing 'way back when'. However, anecdotally, I was watching a 1994 documentary on Scottish winter climbing called The Edge which included an ascent of the White Line in Sneachda by two prominent winter climbers of the time and that was done with a light covering of snow and bits of neve. So I wonder if people are exaggerating how much things have changed.
If the tools don't touch rock at all, that's full on ice or snow climbing and you don't get that with mixed routes.
I think what you are saying is standards are slipping and people are doing routes in less wintery conditions. I don't know if that's true as I wasn't winter climbing 'way back when'. However, anecdotally, I was watching a 1994 documentary on Scottish winter climbing called The Edge which included an ascent of the White Line in Sneachda by two prominent winter climbers of the time and that was done with a light covering of snow and bits of neve. So I wonder if people are exaggerating how much things have changed.
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In reply to Misha:
I can only go on my experience. When I started winter climbing in the seventies, the whole point was to climb up ice and snow, as opposed to climbing up rock.
Yes there were 'mixed' routes, but I recall the only issue here was deciding whether to take your crampons off for the rocky bits, or quickly scrattle over them with a guilty conscience.
It was different in the Alps, where the ethics were different because nobody minded if the routes were scratched because they were never going to be pure rock routes. In the UK, the mixed climbing was on mixed climbing routes, and not on routes that were rock routes in the summer. I remember watching Tom Proctor (I was there!) climb a fully iced up Green Death on Millstone. I know that if he had touched any rock with his tools he would have been rightly pilloried, (but I wouldn't have fancied being the one to pillory Tom)
Yes, standards are slipping, and each to his own conscience. In my book, Savage Slit is a summer rock route, so it shouldn't be scratched.
I can only go on my experience. When I started winter climbing in the seventies, the whole point was to climb up ice and snow, as opposed to climbing up rock.
Yes there were 'mixed' routes, but I recall the only issue here was deciding whether to take your crampons off for the rocky bits, or quickly scrattle over them with a guilty conscience.
It was different in the Alps, where the ethics were different because nobody minded if the routes were scratched because they were never going to be pure rock routes. In the UK, the mixed climbing was on mixed climbing routes, and not on routes that were rock routes in the summer. I remember watching Tom Proctor (I was there!) climb a fully iced up Green Death on Millstone. I know that if he had touched any rock with his tools he would have been rightly pilloried, (but I wouldn't have fancied being the one to pillory Tom)
Yes, standards are slipping, and each to his own conscience. In my book, Savage Slit is a summer rock route, so it shouldn't be scratched.
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In reply to Fredt:
Clearly you have more of a historical perspective on this. I guess the move to mixed happened as people ran out of new snow and ice lines to do and tools and gear improved and then people moved on to existing rock routes (though some summer lines such as Bowfell Buttress were done as winter routes yonks ago so it's not exactly a new thing). Whether that means standards slipped or evolved/developed is a question of perspective.
Clearly you have more of a historical perspective on this. I guess the move to mixed happened as people ran out of new snow and ice lines to do and tools and gear improved and then people moved on to existing rock routes (though some summer lines such as Bowfell Buttress were done as winter routes yonks ago so it's not exactly a new thing). Whether that means standards slipped or evolved/developed is a question of perspective.
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In reply to ModerateMatt:
Mountain routes are better suited to winter climbing as being the mountains it tends to be wintry more often! Unlike low level crags. So no double standard.
Mountain routes are better suited to winter climbing as being the mountains it tends to be wintry more often! Unlike low level crags. So no double standard.
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Many mountain crag routes get more ascents in winter conditions than they ever see in summer so in a sense they are primarily winter routes and that takes precedence. At a guess I'd say winter ascents on crags like Ben Nevis and The Northern Corries probably outnumber summer ascents by 10 to 1
The rock on most of our mountain crags is either volcanics (andesite and rhyolite) or granite. Both are very hard rocks and whilst they do get scratched this is only superficial damage. On other hand, most of our crags are either Gritstone or Limestone. These are much softer rocks and would actually wear away quite quickly if they were drytooled especially gritstone which has a sort of protective skin which, once damaged, exposes the softer rock below.
Here's an extract from the BMC guidance on drytooling
"The BMC acknowledges that dry tooling has a place in British climbing. The suitability of individual sites for dry tooling should be considered on a case-by-case basis by the relevant BMC Area Meeting. Dry tooling is not considered to be an acceptable practice on established rock climbs."
which you can find here:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-drilled-equipment-and-dry-tooling-position-sta...
> Assuming the reason for people aversion to tooling on rock routes is damage to them. If that is the case why is there a double standard in the mountains. Is the reason for peoples distaste perception rather than ethics. >
Many mountain crag routes get more ascents in winter conditions than they ever see in summer so in a sense they are primarily winter routes and that takes precedence. At a guess I'd say winter ascents on crags like Ben Nevis and The Northern Corries probably outnumber summer ascents by 10 to 1
> My question really was does mixed in the mountains do more or less damage than dry tooling at a crag? >
The rock on most of our mountain crags is either volcanics (andesite and rhyolite) or granite. Both are very hard rocks and whilst they do get scratched this is only superficial damage. On other hand, most of our crags are either Gritstone or Limestone. These are much softer rocks and would actually wear away quite quickly if they were drytooled especially gritstone which has a sort of protective skin which, once damaged, exposes the softer rock below.
Here's an extract from the BMC guidance on drytooling
"The BMC acknowledges that dry tooling has a place in British climbing. The suitability of individual sites for dry tooling should be considered on a case-by-case basis by the relevant BMC Area Meeting. Dry tooling is not considered to be an acceptable practice on established rock climbs."
which you can find here:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-drilled-equipment-and-dry-tooling-position-sta...
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In reply to pec:
and often more like 100 to 1!
> At a guess I'd say winter ascents on crags like Ben Nevis and The Northern Corries probably outnumber summer ascents by 10 to 1
>
>
and often more like 100 to 1!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Quite possibly, 10 to 1 was a conservative estimate.
> and often more like 100 to 1! .
Quite possibly, 10 to 1 was a conservative estimate.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
So it's a cosmetic difference? In that photo the ice tools are in contact with what? Ice, snow, frozen turf? No, it's rock.
> I think you need to look at that photo again - the buttress is hoared up. With dry tooling the rock is completely black
So it's a cosmetic difference? In that photo the ice tools are in contact with what? Ice, snow, frozen turf? No, it's rock.
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In reply to aln:
Snowed up, iced up cracks for gear and took placements, icy cracks making gear tricky to place, footholds covered in snow and ice - you get that even when it doesn't look that white (especially when seen from below). A totally different world to dry tooling in terms of how it feels, even if there isn't loads of build up. Tools will be in contact with rock but with snow and ice in the cracks, or sometimes stuck into frozen blobs of who knows what. Either way, hardly like dry tooling on dry rock. Give it a go, find out how it feels, then see if you still think it's the same.
Snowed up, iced up cracks for gear and took placements, icy cracks making gear tricky to place, footholds covered in snow and ice - you get that even when it doesn't look that white (especially when seen from below). A totally different world to dry tooling in terms of how it feels, even if there isn't loads of build up. Tools will be in contact with rock but with snow and ice in the cracks, or sometimes stuck into frozen blobs of who knows what. Either way, hardly like dry tooling on dry rock. Give it a go, find out how it feels, then see if you still think it's the same.
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In reply to Misha:
>Give it a go, find out how it feels, then see if you still think it's the same.
I've climbed in winter, dry tooled in summer. Tools on hoared edges, torqueing in cracks, are tools on rock.
>Give it a go, find out how it feels, then see if you still think it's the same.
I've climbed in winter, dry tooled in summer. Tools on hoared edges, torqueing in cracks, are tools on rock.
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In reply to aln:
Of course it's rock. Nobody has said otherwise.
> So it's a cosmetic difference? In that photo the ice tools are in contact with what? Ice, snow, frozen turf? No, it's rock.
Of course it's rock. Nobody has said otherwise.
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In reply to aln:
Oddly enough, even with 15cm of white stuff on said rock... your tools will still be on rock, granted the white stuff might make 'em stick better, but it's still the rock that you rely on.
> I've climbed in winter, dry tooled in summer. Tools on hoared edges, torqueing in cracks, are tools on rock.
Oddly enough, even with 15cm of white stuff on said rock... your tools will still be on rock, granted the white stuff might make 'em stick better, but it's still the rock that you rely on.
In reply to ModerateMatt:
The difference between mixed winter climbing and dry tooling is very simple.
If it takes place between mid December and the end of March, on a mountain crag with a bit of frost on it, and provided the route is at least VIII+ then it's mixed winter climbing.
Anything else is dry tooling - unless of course you are a sponsored top climber, in which case anything goes.
It's really just as simple as spotting the difference between a crocodile and an alligator from a plane window at 30,000 feet.
The difference between mixed winter climbing and dry tooling is very simple.
If it takes place between mid December and the end of March, on a mountain crag with a bit of frost on it, and provided the route is at least VIII+ then it's mixed winter climbing.
Anything else is dry tooling - unless of course you are a sponsored top climber, in which case anything goes.
It's really just as simple as spotting the difference between a crocodile and an alligator from a plane window at 30,000 feet.
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In reply to Fredt:
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is out of step with the majority consensus - just as much as if you were to suggest dry tooling Embankment or bolting Indian Face.
It appears that some people require some sort of flowchart to decide what is and what is not acceptable, when climbing ethics have nothing to do with logic and everything to do with consensus.
> Yes, standards are slipping, and each to his own conscience. In my book, Savage Slit is a summer rock route, so it shouldn't be scratched.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is out of step with the majority consensus - just as much as if you were to suggest dry tooling Embankment or bolting Indian Face.
It appears that some people require some sort of flowchart to decide what is and what is not acceptable, when climbing ethics have nothing to do with logic and everything to do with consensus.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Just out of curiosity, if we got the conditions shown in the photo on the post by Fredt on Tuesday, on say Cloggy, what would be the general consensus on someone doing a bit of 'winter' climbing on Great Wall, White Slab etc?
> You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is out of step with the majority consensus - just as much as if you were to suggest dry tooling Embankment or bolting Indian Face.
> It appears that some people require some sort of flowchart to decide what is and what is not acceptable, when climbing ethics have nothing to do with logic and everything to do with consensus.
Just out of curiosity, if we got the conditions shown in the photo on the post by Fredt on Tuesday, on say Cloggy, what would be the general consensus on someone doing a bit of 'winter' climbing on Great Wall, White Slab etc?
Post edited at 14:17
In reply to Goucho:
I don't know Cloggy particularly well - is it often in Winter condition? Looking at the logbook there are a handful of Winter routes ( eg The Black Cleft (VII) ). Slabs don't typically make good Winter routes so it seems unlikely to become a problem.
> Just out of curiosity, if we got the conditions shown in the photo on the post by Fredt on Tuesday, on say Cloggy, what would be the general consensus on someone doing a bit of 'winter' climbing on Great Wall, White Slab etc?
I don't know Cloggy particularly well - is it often in Winter condition? Looking at the logbook there are a handful of Winter routes ( eg The Black Cleft (VII) ). Slabs don't typically make good Winter routes so it seems unlikely to become a problem.
In reply to Goucho:
Identifying which is which is pretty easy unless they're in a zoo.
> It's really just as simple as spotting the difference between a crocodile and an alligator from a plane window at 30,000 feet.
Identifying which is which is pretty easy unless they're in a zoo.
In reply to Goucho:
There is the BMC winter ethics guide to the Lakes:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lakeswinterethics
The crags that are off-limits to winter climbing are listed. I don't know Cloggy that well but if there was to a similar list for North Wales then I'm sure some sections of Cloggy would be listed. Jubilee Climb would personally be top of my winter list if ever I was in the right place at the right time!
(Edit: Grammar)
There is the BMC winter ethics guide to the Lakes:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lakeswinterethics
The crags that are off-limits to winter climbing are listed. I don't know Cloggy that well but if there was to a similar list for North Wales then I'm sure some sections of Cloggy would be listed. Jubilee Climb would personally be top of my winter list if ever I was in the right place at the right time!
(Edit: Grammar)
Post edited at 15:40
In reply to planetmarshall:
I am intrigued by the definition of consensus. What if a majority of people who wanted to climb Indian Face, but didn't like the protection, wanted to place some bolts, presumably this would be ok. Please do not dismiss this as stupid as it is exactly in line with your logic. The problem with consensus is, like this forum, it tends to be hijacked by people with more extreme views who are trying to push the boundaries regardless of ethics.
There is a requirement to have guidelines, whether in the form of a flowchart or not, as people new to climbing may not understand the ethics that have been established over several decades.
Personally I do not have any issue with mixed or dry tooling but I do see them both as one and the same thing with winter mixed being the equivalent of trad and dry tooling as sport and training for mixed.
I am intrigued by the definition of consensus. What if a majority of people who wanted to climb Indian Face, but didn't like the protection, wanted to place some bolts, presumably this would be ok. Please do not dismiss this as stupid as it is exactly in line with your logic. The problem with consensus is, like this forum, it tends to be hijacked by people with more extreme views who are trying to push the boundaries regardless of ethics.
There is a requirement to have guidelines, whether in the form of a flowchart or not, as people new to climbing may not understand the ethics that have been established over several decades.
Personally I do not have any issue with mixed or dry tooling but I do see them both as one and the same thing with winter mixed being the equivalent of trad and dry tooling as sport and training for mixed.
In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
I think consensus and majority are not necessarily the same thing. Whether it's Scotland, North Wales, or anywhere else there's probably going to be a select few dozen climbers whose opinions carry much greater weight. So yes, hypothetically I could see India Face still not getting bolted even if there was a majority in favour. Unless hypothetically India Face was in France, in which case it would get bolted tomorrow!
> I am intrigued by the definition of consensus. What if a majority of people who wanted to climb Indian Face, but didn't like the protection, wanted to place some bolts, presumably this would be ok.
I think consensus and majority are not necessarily the same thing. Whether it's Scotland, North Wales, or anywhere else there's probably going to be a select few dozen climbers whose opinions carry much greater weight. So yes, hypothetically I could see India Face still not getting bolted even if there was a majority in favour. Unless hypothetically India Face was in France, in which case it would get bolted tomorrow!
Why has no one called troll?
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