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Recent local meetings have seen the council declare the A591 between Grasmere and Keswick will be closed until May at the earliest; the transport minister then visited "the gap" days later and repeated the same on the news.
Due to the lack of footfall and passing trade, local businesses estimate losses of £60 million to the local economy before the repair is completed. This will mean many businesses either making redundancies or closing completely.
If you would like to use this road any sooner, or support the businesses who depend on customers accessing the A591, South Lakes MP Tim Farron has begun a petition to apply for EU funding to speed up the repair.
http://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2016/1138693/clock-ticking-on-flood-fund-...
Apparently David Cameron does not want to ask the EU for any flood recovery money for some reason (can't think why). If you do sign the petition please like this post; it will be interesting to see how many/ if any people do.
Thanks.
Due to the lack of footfall and passing trade, local businesses estimate losses of £60 million to the local economy before the repair is completed. This will mean many businesses either making redundancies or closing completely.
If you would like to use this road any sooner, or support the businesses who depend on customers accessing the A591, South Lakes MP Tim Farron has begun a petition to apply for EU funding to speed up the repair.
http://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2016/1138693/clock-ticking-on-flood-fund-...
Apparently David Cameron does not want to ask the EU for any flood recovery money for some reason (can't think why). If you do sign the petition please like this post; it will be interesting to see how many/ if any people do.
Thanks.
31
In reply to MG:
The later was given, but the former suspected. The council chap was asked (in a different meeting) what his solution would be if money was no objsect and he chose not to respond. A local business consortium chaired by the director of Windermere Lake Cruises has appointed their own civil engineer to look at alternative solutions.
You can view the recording of this week's meeting at:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzxnHopXx7HlZURrR0EycFBsYWM
It's too big a video to fit on facebook apparently. In the short term, there will be a commercially operated (£how much?) Stagecoach bus service that will be allowed to use a temporary road around the gap; this will happen in February.
The later was given, but the former suspected. The council chap was asked (in a different meeting) what his solution would be if money was no objsect and he chose not to respond. A local business consortium chaired by the director of Windermere Lake Cruises has appointed their own civil engineer to look at alternative solutions.
You can view the recording of this week's meeting at:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzxnHopXx7HlZURrR0EycFBsYWM
It's too big a video to fit on facebook apparently. In the short term, there will be a commercially operated (£how much?) Stagecoach bus service that will be allowed to use a temporary road around the gap; this will happen in February.
In reply to GavClayton:
The whole situation with the county as a whole is strange, bridges down, roads damaged everywhere and no sign of works going on after weeks, they are pissing around in Kendal putting a new light system in at a junction that already had lights and has never caused a problem.
Loss to businesses with the A591 closed is estimated at upwards of £40 Million. There just seems to be no plan and if there is they are not sharing it, they need to prioritise the repairs and publish it for all to see, but that's the issue, they don't have clients as such like a normal businesses do so don't really answer to anybody and have no fear of failure or overrunning works.
The whole situation with the county as a whole is strange, bridges down, roads damaged everywhere and no sign of works going on after weeks, they are pissing around in Kendal putting a new light system in at a junction that already had lights and has never caused a problem.
Loss to businesses with the A591 closed is estimated at upwards of £40 Million. There just seems to be no plan and if there is they are not sharing it, they need to prioritise the repairs and publish it for all to see, but that's the issue, they don't have clients as such like a normal businesses do so don't really answer to anybody and have no fear of failure or overrunning works.
1
In reply to GavClayton:
Signed.
I do think the media has seriously exacerbated the problem tho...........at times they have indicated Grasmere has been effectively cut off and Jo Public often doesn't have the sense/knowledge to suss out that for the vast majority of visitors the A591 closure has made no difference to access.
Signed.
I do think the media has seriously exacerbated the problem tho...........at times they have indicated Grasmere has been effectively cut off and Jo Public often doesn't have the sense/knowledge to suss out that for the vast majority of visitors the A591 closure has made no difference to access.
8
2
In reply to mick taylor:
Its not really about visitors, its made a huge impact for the poor souls who live or work in the Grasmere/Ambleside/Keswick/Penrith area though, it's either Kirkstone or Kendal and the M6.
Its not really about visitors, its made a huge impact for the poor souls who live or work in the Grasmere/Ambleside/Keswick/Penrith area though, it's either Kirkstone or Kendal and the M6.
3
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
The "business task force" seem to want to hold them to account, though I'm not sure how. The temporary road and installation of bailie bridges will be done by Thomas Armstrong. The A591 repairs will be conducted by Highways England, thought the council will continue to be the public interface.
The "business task force" seem to want to hold them to account, though I'm not sure how. The temporary road and installation of bailie bridges will be done by Thomas Armstrong. The A591 repairs will be conducted by Highways England, thought the council will continue to be the public interface.
In reply to GavClayton:
Who is 'them'? Thanks.
> The "business task force" seem to want to hold them to account ...
Who is 'them'? Thanks.
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Tell me about it. I left work in Carlisle at 4.30pm weds and got home a 7.45. Probably shouldn't have tried to get over kirkstone in the first place and just gone m6 in the first place. My partner will have to make that choice to get to the dentist next week.
If any visitors do follow this thread, it would be good to add their wieght to the petition.
Tell me about it. I left work in Carlisle at 4.30pm weds and got home a 7.45. Probably shouldn't have tried to get over kirkstone in the first place and just gone m6 in the first place. My partner will have to make that choice to get to the dentist next week.
If any visitors do follow this thread, it would be good to add their wieght to the petition.
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Was meaning visitors in terms of revenue and the lack of meaning business making folk redundant etc. But agree about the huge impact. I'm half Cumbrian (Grasmere) and feel the pain.
Was meaning visitors in terms of revenue and the lack of meaning business making folk redundant etc. But agree about the huge impact. I'm half Cumbrian (Grasmere) and feel the pain.
In reply to Rob Parsons:
I think the council ultimately, but that could include HE and contractors as well.
> Who is 'them'? Thanks.
I think the council ultimately, but that could include HE and contractors as well.
Signed.
I live in Cumbria, and it is frustrating to see the complete lack of any significant efforts to rectify the situation. We have several main routes out of action due to damage, lots of routes around these can't be used either due to minor bridges and road problems. It's a significant inconvenience to anyone living or working in the area as well as the significant inconvenience to businesses and their lost earnings.
Kendal is fast turning into a no-go zone with two out of three main bridges either closed or partially closed. trying to get to Ambleside or Grasmere from anywhere North of J36 is a farce, the main routes aren't navigable and neither are the sensible side roads.
I live in Cumbria, and it is frustrating to see the complete lack of any significant efforts to rectify the situation. We have several main routes out of action due to damage, lots of routes around these can't be used either due to minor bridges and road problems. It's a significant inconvenience to anyone living or working in the area as well as the significant inconvenience to businesses and their lost earnings.
Kendal is fast turning into a no-go zone with two out of three main bridges either closed or partially closed. trying to get to Ambleside or Grasmere from anywhere North of J36 is a farce, the main routes aren't navigable and neither are the sensible side roads.
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In reply to GavClayton:
Thanks.
One question relates to your initial post which states 'Tim Farron has begun a petition to apply for EU funding to speed up the repair.' If there is relevant EU money available then it makes sense to claim it, but where's the evidence that that would 'speed up the repair'?
Related: what has the sainted Rory Stewart got to say on the matter? He gets a remarkably sycophantic treatment by the press, as a rule.
Thanks.
One question relates to your initial post which states 'Tim Farron has begun a petition to apply for EU funding to speed up the repair.' If there is relevant EU money available then it makes sense to claim it, but where's the evidence that that would 'speed up the repair'?
Related: what has the sainted Rory Stewart got to say on the matter? He gets a remarkably sycophantic treatment by the press, as a rule.
In reply to GavClayton:
Different attitude from Aberdeen City Council who said they will spend the money to sort things out then solve the problem of where it comes from afterwards. Why the UK needs EU funding to fix a short section of vital road in one of the busiest tourist regions in the UK beats me. I imagine if it was Westminster bridge out of action it would have been fixed weeks ago. Shocking.
Different attitude from Aberdeen City Council who said they will spend the money to sort things out then solve the problem of where it comes from afterwards. Why the UK needs EU funding to fix a short section of vital road in one of the busiest tourist regions in the UK beats me. I imagine if it was Westminster bridge out of action it would have been fixed weeks ago. Shocking.
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1
In reply to Toccata:
That's quite impressive. Annoyingly, that information isn't given on the Traffic Scotland website, but it's a very good effort.
That's quite impressive. Annoyingly, that information isn't given on the Traffic Scotland website, but it's a very good effort.
In reply to GavClayton:
What really boils my nads about this sort of thing is that it's all about budgets.
The cost of dropping 1 or 2 bombs less in Syria would probably pay for the repairs.
Last I heard Tadcaster bridge (takes loads of traffic every day) will be out for at least 6 months too.
We can find money to go to war.
We can find money for foreign aid.
We can find money for politicians to fly round he world for meeting.
We apparently can't find money to fix the infrastructure that supports businesses that pay the tax to supply the money in the first place.
What really boils my nads about this sort of thing is that it's all about budgets.
The cost of dropping 1 or 2 bombs less in Syria would probably pay for the repairs.
Last I heard Tadcaster bridge (takes loads of traffic every day) will be out for at least 6 months too.
We can find money to go to war.
We can find money for foreign aid.
We can find money for politicians to fly round he world for meeting.
We apparently can't find money to fix the infrastructure that supports businesses that pay the tax to supply the money in the first place.
10
In reply to Toccata:
Which goes some way to explaining why the UK has a trillion plus debt etc...
> they will spend the money to sort things out then solve the problem of where it comes from afterwards.
Which goes some way to explaining why the UK has a trillion plus debt etc...
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3
In reply to Dax H:
and the fact that you can't really do a proper construction job in the kind of weather they have right now, you could do a botch job, then close it again within a year to fix it, finally costing twice the price?
> What really boils my nads about this sort of thing is that it's all about budgets.
and the fact that you can't really do a proper construction job in the kind of weather they have right now, you could do a botch job, then close it again within a year to fix it, finally costing twice the price?
2
In reply to Toccata:
how do you cost it? Loss revenue in total, lost tax receipts, working hours... I think it is as much down to how impractical it will be. They could do a quick botch, single lane with lights and then close it in peak summer to redo the job properly, spending longer as they need to rip out the botch first?
> Maybe it would cost more not spending the money?
how do you cost it? Loss revenue in total, lost tax receipts, working hours... I think it is as much down to how impractical it will be. They could do a quick botch, single lane with lights and then close it in peak summer to redo the job properly, spending longer as they need to rip out the botch first?
In reply to Dax H:
There's no evidence that lack of money is the problem. Is there?
> What really boils my nads about this sort of thing is that it's all about budgets.
There's no evidence that lack of money is the problem. Is there?
In reply to mick taylor:
I heard only a couple of days ago that people trying to get south from Keswick towards Thirlmere were being discouraged so I'm not sure about "visitors" to the Thirlmere side of Helvellyn being unaffected. It's certainly pretty awkward to get from some As to Bs at the moment and noone seems to be even mentioning what is wrong at Eamont Bridge - there seem to be few updates as if it's a secret.
I can fully believe it would be embarassing to show one of the main reasons for being in the EU - a community of nations stronger together than apart with more in common than to separate us. God forbid that help for regions affected by major weather events from the Solidarity fund should prevent internal Conservative Party issues from preventing us seeing any value in the EU!
I heard only a couple of days ago that people trying to get south from Keswick towards Thirlmere were being discouraged so I'm not sure about "visitors" to the Thirlmere side of Helvellyn being unaffected. It's certainly pretty awkward to get from some As to Bs at the moment and noone seems to be even mentioning what is wrong at Eamont Bridge - there seem to be few updates as if it's a secret.
I can fully believe it would be embarassing to show one of the main reasons for being in the EU - a community of nations stronger together than apart with more in common than to separate us. God forbid that help for regions affected by major weather events from the Solidarity fund should prevent internal Conservative Party issues from preventing us seeing any value in the EU!
1
In reply to GavClayton:
They put a new footpath through and walk the school kids through the gap however at other times they have it locked up for safety reasons, there is a bloke in a hut turning folk back. My wife works in Whitehaven we live in Langdale, the other night she was stopped by this fella, dark and snowing heavily by this time and he tried to send her on a fifty mile round trip on roads that were being closed with the snow, luckily my wife is quite a determined character and followed the original footpath to top of Dunmail where I met her in truck. It was very atmospheric as tiny light in blizzard with 6inches of snow on ground resolved into wife.
They need to sort it out, the progress is laughable, it's not that big a hole, there is solid rock at bottom, doddle, landslide off helyvellen, nowt compared to alps, if they had got on it the concrete would have gone off by now, it's mystifying
They put a new footpath through and walk the school kids through the gap however at other times they have it locked up for safety reasons, there is a bloke in a hut turning folk back. My wife works in Whitehaven we live in Langdale, the other night she was stopped by this fella, dark and snowing heavily by this time and he tried to send her on a fifty mile round trip on roads that were being closed with the snow, luckily my wife is quite a determined character and followed the original footpath to top of Dunmail where I met her in truck. It was very atmospheric as tiny light in blizzard with 6inches of snow on ground resolved into wife.
They need to sort it out, the progress is laughable, it's not that big a hole, there is solid rock at bottom, doddle, landslide off helyvellen, nowt compared to alps, if they had got on it the concrete would have gone off by now, it's mystifying
1
In reply to GavClayton:
Could I just clarify from some of you locals exactly what the situation is please.
How can close can you drive to the top of Dunmail raise where you park to walk up to Grisedale tarn / Dollywaggon Pike etc?
From what I can deduce its the next bit (through the trees) that's closed, is that so?
Can you drive (presumably only from the North) to the car park where you walk in to Brown Cove Crags.
Thanks.
Could I just clarify from some of you locals exactly what the situation is please.
How can close can you drive to the top of Dunmail raise where you park to walk up to Grisedale tarn / Dollywaggon Pike etc?
From what I can deduce its the next bit (through the trees) that's closed, is that so?
Can you drive (presumably only from the North) to the car park where you walk in to Brown Cove Crags.
Thanks.
1
In reply to pec:
No problem getting to the top from Grasmere (apart from any snow and ice).
My knowledge of the other side is based purely on the local news so I will leave it to someone else to comment.
Edit: Petition signed.
> Could I just clarify from some of you locals exactly what the situation is please.
> How close can you drive to the top of Dunmail raise where you park to walk up to Grisedale tarn / Dollywaggon Pike etc?
No problem getting to the top from Grasmere (apart from any snow and ice).
My knowledge of the other side is based purely on the local news so I will leave it to someone else to comment.
Edit: Petition signed.
Post edited at 23:17
In reply to summo:
So because it might be expensive just ignore it until summer.
The army manage to build temporary bridges all over the world, let the engineers practice in the trouble spots then sort things properly later.
> and the fact that you can't really do a proper construction job in the kind of weather they have right now, you could do a botch job, then close it again within a year to fix it, finally costing twice the price?
So because it might be expensive just ignore it until summer.
The army manage to build temporary bridges all over the world, let the engineers practice in the trouble spots then sort things properly later.
In reply to GavClayton:
From what I can tell, this appears to be the type of funding that is being applied for: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Solidarity_Fund
Read and make your own mind up if the roadwork's on the A591 actually meet that criteria...
From what I can tell, this appears to be the type of funding that is being applied for: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Solidarity_Fund
Read and make your own mind up if the roadwork's on the A591 actually meet that criteria...
In reply to FactorXXX:
Projects costing £3 billion and above.
Yep no problem, just get 3 quotes and submit them the same as you do with house insurance.
I can send them a quote today for 3.1 billion to get the ball rolling and my brother can do the same, any volunteer to send the third?
On a more serious note, taken country wide the costs do add up, the A591, Tadcaster bridge, the M62 is down 1 lane due to subsidence. Yorkshire Water has something like 130 sites that flooded and is spending millions (insured) to get back up and running again ASAP, United utilities in Cumbria will be exactly the same.
Then start adding up the lost revenue for business, loss of production because they were flooded or can't get product or customers through the door or even their customers have been flooded so can't afford to buy their products.
Business wise I have been lucky, we didn't flood (my office and workshop are up a hill) but ballpark estimations we have lost around £75k a year in revenue from customers who were either Un insured or under insured or just using the flood as an excuse to cash in and call it a day.
Fortunately we have covered that loss and then some with customers who need their equipment repairing / replacing and we have picked up quite a few new customers as well because we responded when their existing service providers didn't, we offer 24/7 cover 365 days a year with a 2 hour response time, today is the first day I have had off since boxing day.
> Read and make your own mind up if the roadwork's on the A591 actually meet that criteria...
Projects costing £3 billion and above.
Yep no problem, just get 3 quotes and submit them the same as you do with house insurance.
I can send them a quote today for 3.1 billion to get the ball rolling and my brother can do the same, any volunteer to send the third?
On a more serious note, taken country wide the costs do add up, the A591, Tadcaster bridge, the M62 is down 1 lane due to subsidence. Yorkshire Water has something like 130 sites that flooded and is spending millions (insured) to get back up and running again ASAP, United utilities in Cumbria will be exactly the same.
Then start adding up the lost revenue for business, loss of production because they were flooded or can't get product or customers through the door or even their customers have been flooded so can't afford to buy their products.
Business wise I have been lucky, we didn't flood (my office and workshop are up a hill) but ballpark estimations we have lost around £75k a year in revenue from customers who were either Un insured or under insured or just using the flood as an excuse to cash in and call it a day.
Fortunately we have covered that loss and then some with customers who need their equipment repairing / replacing and we have picked up quite a few new customers as well because we responded when their existing service providers didn't, we offer 24/7 cover 365 days a year with a 2 hour response time, today is the first day I have had off since boxing day.
In reply to FactorXXX:
Also see
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/funding/solidarity-fund/
for the official statement about what the EUSF is, and
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/thefunds/doc/interventions_sinc...
for a list of interventions from the fund since 2002. Note that the UK applied for, and was granted, money, as a result of the 2007 floods.
However also note that the first link contains the following statement:
"It is worth noting that the EUSF is not a rapid response instrument for dealing with the effects of a natural disaster. Financial aid can only be granted to the applying State following an application and budgetary process which can take several months to complete."
So, again, it is worth asking whether or not any intervention from the EUSF would 'speed up' the process of fixing the A591 (inter alia), as is the suggestion on Farron's petition.
> From what I can tell, this appears to be the type of funding that is being applied for: -
Also see
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/funding/solidarity-fund/
for the official statement about what the EUSF is, and
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/thefunds/doc/interventions_sinc...
for a list of interventions from the fund since 2002. Note that the UK applied for, and was granted, money, as a result of the 2007 floods.
However also note that the first link contains the following statement:
"It is worth noting that the EUSF is not a rapid response instrument for dealing with the effects of a natural disaster. Financial aid can only be granted to the applying State following an application and budgetary process which can take several months to complete."
So, again, it is worth asking whether or not any intervention from the EUSF would 'speed up' the process of fixing the A591 (inter alia), as is the suggestion on Farron's petition.
In reply to krikoman:
How much money has been earmarked for hydrogen sulphide?
> They can have the H2S money, it'll do more good up there.
How much money has been earmarked for hydrogen sulphide?
2
In reply to Chris Harris:
or was it what all that money was spent on by a team led by Sir Bernard Lovell to develop air to surface radar? Come to think of it there was a money scandal about Jodrell Bank in the 50s! He was involved there too - must have been a very very bad lot!
or was it what all that money was spent on by a team led by Sir Bernard Lovell to develop air to surface radar? Come to think of it there was a money scandal about Jodrell Bank in the 50s! He was involved there too - must have been a very very bad lot!
In reply to GavClayton:
Consider whether it will affect the tourist trade that much? Folk will still go to Windermere - Ambleside and Grasmere and others will go to Keswick, except the latter group will go via the M6 and relieve traffic congestion in the Central Lakes. The environment around Rydal and Grasmere is seriously degraded in the summer due to the amount of traffic on the A591.
The ability to travel quickly between the two halves of the Lakes adds nothing to tourist revenues, it just adds traffic. The more time people spend out of their car the more they spend - that's why the Snowdonia NPA were desperate to put in a Park and Ride in the Pass. Loads of folk drive to North Wales from the Midlands, park up and climb / walk, then drive home without spending one jot in local businesses.
I don't anticipate many people will agree with me!
Peter
Consider whether it will affect the tourist trade that much? Folk will still go to Windermere - Ambleside and Grasmere and others will go to Keswick, except the latter group will go via the M6 and relieve traffic congestion in the Central Lakes. The environment around Rydal and Grasmere is seriously degraded in the summer due to the amount of traffic on the A591.
The ability to travel quickly between the two halves of the Lakes adds nothing to tourist revenues, it just adds traffic. The more time people spend out of their car the more they spend - that's why the Snowdonia NPA were desperate to put in a Park and Ride in the Pass. Loads of folk drive to North Wales from the Midlands, park up and climb / walk, then drive home without spending one jot in local businesses.
I don't anticipate many people will agree with me!
Peter
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In reply to Peter Metcalfe:
I'm willing to bet that by the end of the summer there will still be some restriction on the damaged section of the A591. However, I also wager that businesses and visitors will have adapted and may actually be enjoying the improved environmental quality around Thirlmere and Grasmere due to the reduced through traffic. Trade may actually *increase* as people stay longer in the valleys on either side rather than driving past on the Windermere - Ambleside - Grasmere - Keswick mobile traffic jam we normally have.
Looked what happened after the Mont Blanc tunnel fire. I don't recall the Chamonix valley suffering a drop in trade. In fact due to the remarkable increase in air quality there was a concerted campaign to ban lorries before the tunnel was reopened http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1677689.stm
Awaiting howls of rage from the petrolheads. It's a pain for us in the Kendal area not being able to get to Shepherds so quickly I know...
Peter
--
I'm willing to bet that by the end of the summer there will still be some restriction on the damaged section of the A591. However, I also wager that businesses and visitors will have adapted and may actually be enjoying the improved environmental quality around Thirlmere and Grasmere due to the reduced through traffic. Trade may actually *increase* as people stay longer in the valleys on either side rather than driving past on the Windermere - Ambleside - Grasmere - Keswick mobile traffic jam we normally have.
Looked what happened after the Mont Blanc tunnel fire. I don't recall the Chamonix valley suffering a drop in trade. In fact due to the remarkable increase in air quality there was a concerted campaign to ban lorries before the tunnel was reopened http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1677689.stm
Awaiting howls of rage from the petrolheads. It's a pain for us in the Kendal area not being able to get to Shepherds so quickly I know...
Peter
--
1
In reply to summo:
If you had a massive hole in your roof would you borrow the money to repair it or let it leak and ruin the rest of your house?
Also note the fundamental difference between a state and a household. The former can basically "borrow" for virtually zero the money required for necessary infrastructure work . The "repayments" ie the returns on government bonds are paid through tax revenues, which are a given as long as the country remains a viable place to do business... maybe because it has spent the money on its infrastructure?
If you had a massive hole in your roof would you borrow the money to repair it or let it leak and ruin the rest of your house?
Also note the fundamental difference between a state and a household. The former can basically "borrow" for virtually zero the money required for necessary infrastructure work . The "repayments" ie the returns on government bonds are paid through tax revenues, which are a given as long as the country remains a viable place to do business... maybe because it has spent the money on its infrastructure?
Post edited at 21:25
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In reply to John Kelly:
Everybody seems to think the major issue is the bit of road that got washed away - engineering wise that's a piece of piss to fix. But about 700 metres of the road going back up to the top of Dunmail is possibly undermined so surveys have to be done to assess that.
But the biggest problem is the stretch from the junction with the back road to Swirls car park - where you start for Brown Cove Crags. That 2-3 mile stretch of hillside that has moved and the landslides that made it onto the road are the least of anyone's worries - it is the millions of tonnes of loose rock above that are waiting to move again. It is the three bridges that are completely full of stone, that no-one knows whether they will stay up once the stone is removed. It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road. It is the retaining walls that will need inpsecting and rebuilding. It is the trees that will be inherently more unstable. It is the ground penetrating radar surveys taking place to ensure there are no massive voids under the road in other places. And all of this above a reservoir that supplies water to Manchester and the north-west. Can you begin to see how long it might take?
Seriously have many of you on here actually seen the scale of the damage around Thirlmere, Keswick, St John's in the Vale and the Keswick to Threlkeld railway path? It is f*cking carnage! There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage across Cumbria, work out how much it is going to cost and work out where that money is going to come from.
And to Pec, Swirls to Dunmail Raise is going to be a building site for months. You can't get in the car park for Brown Cove Crags. The layby further down towards the pub will be the nearest place to park.
And as for Kendal yes it is a pain to drive around (easy to walk and cycle though in a town 1 mile wide and 2 miles long) but check this video out of Victoria Bridge and see how much undermining of the piers occurred. Now you can see why it's closed.
http://www.cumbriacrack.com/2016/01/20/video-victoria-bridge-repairs-get-un...
Aye,
Davie
Everybody seems to think the major issue is the bit of road that got washed away - engineering wise that's a piece of piss to fix. But about 700 metres of the road going back up to the top of Dunmail is possibly undermined so surveys have to be done to assess that.
But the biggest problem is the stretch from the junction with the back road to Swirls car park - where you start for Brown Cove Crags. That 2-3 mile stretch of hillside that has moved and the landslides that made it onto the road are the least of anyone's worries - it is the millions of tonnes of loose rock above that are waiting to move again. It is the three bridges that are completely full of stone, that no-one knows whether they will stay up once the stone is removed. It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road. It is the retaining walls that will need inpsecting and rebuilding. It is the trees that will be inherently more unstable. It is the ground penetrating radar surveys taking place to ensure there are no massive voids under the road in other places. And all of this above a reservoir that supplies water to Manchester and the north-west. Can you begin to see how long it might take?
Seriously have many of you on here actually seen the scale of the damage around Thirlmere, Keswick, St John's in the Vale and the Keswick to Threlkeld railway path? It is f*cking carnage! There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage across Cumbria, work out how much it is going to cost and work out where that money is going to come from.
And to Pec, Swirls to Dunmail Raise is going to be a building site for months. You can't get in the car park for Brown Cove Crags. The layby further down towards the pub will be the nearest place to park.
And as for Kendal yes it is a pain to drive around (easy to walk and cycle though in a town 1 mile wide and 2 miles long) but check this video out of Victoria Bridge and see how much undermining of the piers occurred. Now you can see why it's closed.
http://www.cumbriacrack.com/2016/01/20/video-victoria-bridge-repairs-get-un...
Aye,
Davie
8
In reply to DR:
Good post Davie!
I think most people completely under estimate the havoc and damage water can do.
Good post Davie!
I think most people completely under estimate the havoc and damage water can do.
In reply to DR:
Just to add to that - I went down to Haweswater yesterday - the carpark at the end of the road is probably accessible by 4WD vehicles but there have been landslides and the road is blocked about 10 minutes walk from the roadhead - some tens of tonnes of rubble. It'll be a low priority I expect but this means parking is now severely restricted at the point you can drive to in a car.
Just to add to that - I went down to Haweswater yesterday - the carpark at the end of the road is probably accessible by 4WD vehicles but there have been landslides and the road is blocked about 10 minutes walk from the roadhead - some tens of tonnes of rubble. It'll be a low priority I expect but this means parking is now severely restricted at the point you can drive to in a car.
Post edited at 09:37
In reply to Chris Harris:
>> In reply to krikoman:
>> They can have the H2S money, it'll do more good up there.
Not enough I'm sure and a mere drop in the ocean compared to HS2 !!
>> In reply to krikoman:
>> They can have the H2S money, it'll do more good up there.
> How much money has been earmarked for hydrogen sulphide?
Not enough I'm sure and a mere drop in the ocean compared to HS2 !!
1
In reply to DR:
You seem to be well informed. Have you inside knowledge?
As a local who has often travelled this road 7 days a week, I was always dismayed to see little evidence of regular maintenance. The highways drainage has always been a disgrace for the main link through the Lakes.
I cycled the route a week after the storms, apart from the washed away section the rest of the road seemed to be withstanding regular travel by fully laden trucks carrying 20 tonne loads, so it cannot be too weakened.
I did not inspect the hillside above but thought at the time the road would have been open in a week with adequate temporary repairs.
CCC's problem is that they only talk about problems and not solutions.
More information and explanation to the public would be a good start.
I think we might see the road opened a lot sooner if the officials calling the shots at the moment had to explain their actions to a public inquiry.
> Everybody seems to think the major issue is the bit of road that got washed away - engineering wise that's a piece of piss to fix. But about 700 metres of the road going back up to the top of Dunmail is possibly undermined so surveys have to be done to assess that.
> But the biggest problem is the stretch from the junction with the back road to Swirls car park - where you start for Brown Cove Crags. That 2-3 mile stretch of hillside that has moved and the landslides that made it onto the road are the least of anyone's worries - it is the millions of tonnes of loose rock above that are waiting to move again. It is the three bridges that are completely full of stone, that no-one knows whether they will stay up once the stone is removed. It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road. It is the retaining walls that will need inpsecting and rebuilding. It is the trees that will be inherently more unstable. It is the ground penetrating radar surveys taking place to ensure there are no massive voids under the road in other places. And all of this above a reservoir that supplies water to Manchester and the north-west. Can you begin to see how long it might take?
> Seriously have many of you on here actually seen the scale of the damage around Thirlmere, Keswick, St John's in the Vale and the Keswick to Threlkeld railway path? It is f*cking carnage! There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage across Cumbria, work out how much it is going to cost and work out where that money is going to come from.
You seem to be well informed. Have you inside knowledge?
As a local who has often travelled this road 7 days a week, I was always dismayed to see little evidence of regular maintenance. The highways drainage has always been a disgrace for the main link through the Lakes.
I cycled the route a week after the storms, apart from the washed away section the rest of the road seemed to be withstanding regular travel by fully laden trucks carrying 20 tonne loads, so it cannot be too weakened.
I did not inspect the hillside above but thought at the time the road would have been open in a week with adequate temporary repairs.
CCC's problem is that they only talk about problems and not solutions.
More information and explanation to the public would be a good start.
I think we might see the road opened a lot sooner if the officials calling the shots at the moment had to explain their actions to a public inquiry.
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
Up there today, three blokes changing wheel on a truck, that was it, pathetic
They built a footpath, the quality is such that you can only use it if accompanied by a safety rep!!!
Up there today, three blokes changing wheel on a truck, that was it, pathetic
They built a footpath, the quality is such that you can only use it if accompanied by a safety rep!!!
In reply to DR:
Missed this as reply to myself sorry
'It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road.'
Ok, so how many culverts have been cleared to date
How much loose stone (shiller) has been extracted since army gave it up
How many meters of wall reinstated
'There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage ',
And there lies problem, loads of evaluation and no shovel
Missed this as reply to myself sorry
'It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road.'
Ok, so how many culverts have been cleared to date
How much loose stone (shiller) has been extracted since army gave it up
How many meters of wall reinstated
'There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage ',
And there lies problem, loads of evaluation and no shovel
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
If you conclude that CCC isn't doing a satisfactory job, then don't forget that at Council election time.
I see that the current administration is a Labour / Lib Dem coalition. Since none of the above discussion suggests that lack of money is the problem here, that suggests that Farron's petition (the original subject of this thread) is more political mischief-making than it is a real effort to solve the immediate problem: he might better use his time by knocking heads together at the Council.
> CCC's problem is that they only talk about problems and not solutions.
If you conclude that CCC isn't doing a satisfactory job, then don't forget that at Council election time.
I see that the current administration is a Labour / Lib Dem coalition. Since none of the above discussion suggests that lack of money is the problem here, that suggests that Farron's petition (the original subject of this thread) is more political mischief-making than it is a real effort to solve the immediate problem: he might better use his time by knocking heads together at the Council.
In reply to Rob Parsons: .
It's my understanding that councils are having to deal with having reduced funding from central government since the start of the cuts, might this also apply to in the Lake District too?
> I see that the current administration is a Labour / Lib Dem coalition. Since none of the above discussion suggests that lack of money is the problem here, that suggests that Farron's petition (the original subject of this thread) is more political mischief-making than it is a real effort to solve the immediate problem: he might better use his time by knocking heads together at the Council.
It's my understanding that councils are having to deal with having reduced funding from central government since the start of the cuts, might this also apply to in the Lake District too?
1
In reply to Timmd:
Yes, definitely; and I am no supporter of the (so-called) 'austerity' agenda.
I was just commenting that the time being taken to repair the A591 might not be related to an immediate lack of funding.
Yes, definitely; and I am no supporter of the (so-called) 'austerity' agenda.
I was just commenting that the time being taken to repair the A591 might not be related to an immediate lack of funding.
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
I'm just a local who knows a bit. I'm also a geomorphologist who knows a bit about slope instability. And I don't work for the County Council and usually not an apologist for them either.
I agree that more information and explanation would be useful but where is your evidence that CCC only talk about problems and not solutions? They are building a temporary road to allow buses through and along the Thirlmere back road, a date of May has been given for the A591 re-opening and they are clearing Pooley Bridge for a temporary road bridge and reopening by Easter. Yep just problem after problem...
A public inquiry will be more likely if the road reopens before the hillside above is made stable and cars get crushed and people die from a rockfall.
Aye,
Davie
I'm just a local who knows a bit. I'm also a geomorphologist who knows a bit about slope instability. And I don't work for the County Council and usually not an apologist for them either.
I agree that more information and explanation would be useful but where is your evidence that CCC only talk about problems and not solutions? They are building a temporary road to allow buses through and along the Thirlmere back road, a date of May has been given for the A591 re-opening and they are clearing Pooley Bridge for a temporary road bridge and reopening by Easter. Yep just problem after problem...
A public inquiry will be more likely if the road reopens before the hillside above is made stable and cars get crushed and people die from a rockfall.
Aye,
Davie
2
In reply to John Kelly:
I've no idea how many culverts have been cleared, schiller cleared or walls reinstated yet - I'm not that much in the know. And even if it is very little, so what? Have you any real idea what the road engineers are facing? Have you any real idea how long it will take?
The no shovel comments is also crap - go up there and have a look - it's a building site FFS.
Aye
Davie
> 'It is the 60 culverts, also full of stone, that can only be cleared by digging up the road.'
> Ok, so how many culverts have been cleared to date
> How much loose stone (shiller) has been extracted since army gave it up
> How many meters of wall reinstated
> 'There are people working flat out to devise solutions, evaluate the extent of damage ',
> And there lies problem, loads of evaluation and no shovel
I've no idea how many culverts have been cleared, schiller cleared or walls reinstated yet - I'm not that much in the know. And even if it is very little, so what? Have you any real idea what the road engineers are facing? Have you any real idea how long it will take?
The no shovel comments is also crap - go up there and have a look - it's a building site FFS.
Aye
Davie
1
In reply to Peter Metcalfe:
Hi Peter,
You write; "that's why the Snowdonia NPA were desperate to put in a Park and Ride in the Pass." I thought it was a local council, county thing and not the SNPA. If you know different could you explain; the whole affair was fascinating to me.
Hi Peter,
You write; "that's why the Snowdonia NPA were desperate to put in a Park and Ride in the Pass." I thought it was a local council, county thing and not the SNPA. If you know different could you explain; the whole affair was fascinating to me.
In reply to DR:
It might be useful if you went and had a look at it. I have little faith in the information given by the council.
So why not a temporary fix to the washed away section ( single track ) and a one way system on the back road ( an hour each way ),. Works well in Switzerland on the Susten Pass. At least that way the local economies would not be decimated.
Fair comment, I still think a public enquiry is justified.
> I'm just a local who knows a bit. I'm also a geomorphologist who knows a bit about slope instability.
It might be useful if you went and had a look at it. I have little faith in the information given by the council.
> I agree that more information and explanation would be useful but where is your evidence that CCC only talk about problems and not solutions? They are building a temporary road to allow buses through and along the Thirlmere back road, a date of May has been given for the A591 re-opening
So why not a temporary fix to the washed away section ( single track ) and a one way system on the back road ( an hour each way ),. Works well in Switzerland on the Susten Pass. At least that way the local economies would not be decimated.
> A public inquiry will be more likely if the road reopens before the hillside above is made stable and cars get crushed and people die from a rockfall.
Fair comment, I still think a public enquiry is justified.
In reply to DR:
They could fix the hole between Dunmail and the lake which I'm told is not the real problem by you among others so opening up a link via the back road
Edit - you beat me to it Rick, not keen on enquiry, would take longer than the fix, probably!!!
They could fix the hole between Dunmail and the lake which I'm told is not the real problem by you among others so opening up a link via the back road
Edit - you beat me to it Rick, not keen on enquiry, would take longer than the fix, probably!!!
Post edited at 19:19
In reply to Chris_Mellor:
You are right - really should research properly before spouting off on public forums. But I do think the NPA were also involved in the Gateway Towns Initiative, as well the Tourist Board and Regional Development Agency.
You are right - really should research properly before spouting off on public forums. But I do think the NPA were also involved in the Gateway Towns Initiative, as well the Tourist Board and Regional Development Agency.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Haven't they established a shuttle bus service along the west side of Thirlmere? Presumably passengers walk past the damaged section. Sounds a lot more manageable than trying to do the repairs with traffic constantly going past. I still don't see exactly how the local economy is being devastated by not being able to drive from Grasmere to Keswick?
Haven't they established a shuttle bus service along the west side of Thirlmere? Presumably passengers walk past the damaged section. Sounds a lot more manageable than trying to do the repairs with traffic constantly going past. I still don't see exactly how the local economy is being devastated by not being able to drive from Grasmere to Keswick?
2
In reply to Peter Metcalfe:
I suggest you read this.
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/15/after-floods-uk-tourism-lakes...
I suggest you read this.
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/15/after-floods-uk-tourism-lakes...
1
In reply to John Kelly:
It might.
My point is to fix the road as soon as possible then have a public inquiry.
> Edit - you beat me to it Rick, not keen on inquiry, would take longer than the fix, probably!!!
It might.
My point is to fix the road as soon as possible then have a public inquiry.
In reply to Chris_Mellor:
This report commissioned by the SNPA was made available through a FOI request. There's a reasonably detailed breakdown of the additional indirect income that could have been generated by the P&R scheme proposed in North Wales (section 4.4) and some analysis of the current visitor profile in terms of numbers and car vs public transport use (section 2.5).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/30519/response/77150/attach/3/Econom...
They note that 90% of visits are made by car, and in high season about 30% are for sightseeing and unlikely to stop in a settlement, although they don't justify that assertion.
This report commissioned by the SNPA was made available through a FOI request. There's a reasonably detailed breakdown of the additional indirect income that could have been generated by the P&R scheme proposed in North Wales (section 4.4) and some analysis of the current visitor profile in terms of numbers and car vs public transport use (section 2.5).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/30519/response/77150/attach/3/Econom...
They note that 90% of visits are made by car, and in high season about 30% are for sightseeing and unlikely to stop in a settlement, although they don't justify that assertion.
In reply to GavClayton:
I think we have something of a slow burning fuse running in parts of Cumbria. Small and neglected roads are being used as main routes for traffic that used to use bridges now closed. Every time I go into Penrith the state of these little "arterial" lanes is getting worse (not that it was good originally). There will come a time perhaps when these need urgent repair but the original routes may not have reopened by then. Given the further damage we can expect from winter wear and tear and possible flooding it may be interesting soon.
Given we are in part of the county where the head of the council alleged he wasn't expert enough in law to know he shouldn't have given his own business a council recycling contract my confidence in the local authorities realising this before it is too late is rather low.
I think we have something of a slow burning fuse running in parts of Cumbria. Small and neglected roads are being used as main routes for traffic that used to use bridges now closed. Every time I go into Penrith the state of these little "arterial" lanes is getting worse (not that it was good originally). There will come a time perhaps when these need urgent repair but the original routes may not have reopened by then. Given the further damage we can expect from winter wear and tear and possible flooding it may be interesting soon.
Given we are in part of the county where the head of the council alleged he wasn't expert enough in law to know he shouldn't have given his own business a council recycling contract my confidence in the local authorities realising this before it is too late is rather low.
Post edited at 09:03
2
In reply to pec: Hi, sorry for late reply. Last time I was up there the swirls car park and viewpoint was accessible from the north. (Doubt if the ice cream van will be there though!) The closure was from there southwards, so you should still be able to drive in from Keswick or A66 and park there for Brown Cove crags.
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