UKC

Is there much of the white stuff on Kinder or is it in, Yee Ha!

In reply to ruby2:

Of course it's in, there's been a day a two of frost. *sarcasm off*

In reply to ruby2:

Good covering of snow, quite a hard frost in Hayfield last night. But yes, need at least a week of this weather for it to form. Which is not going to happen this winter cos I've just bought a new pair of axes and some snow socks for my car. Global warming, therefore is all my fault.

In reply to ruby2:

Kinder was in for a few days last season. When we took the hike up from the resovoir the sun came out and we watched the whole lot crash down in huge chunks. I could have wept as a day earlier it was amazing.

In reply to radar:

Thats just not true.. good ice can form quickly in the right conditions.

In reply to Offwidth:

And do those conditions include a very warm and wet december carrying a lot of heat into the ground?

In reply to Reggie Perrin:

Yes they can. With the right flow (not too fast not too slow) and wind chill ice grows fast. In contrast consistent cold conditions often mean no flow and no ice growth. I've done the downfall numerous times and lots of other ice routes around Kinder nearly always being first on the particular line and thats my experience of about 25 years of interest in the area.

In reply to Offwidth:
I agree I think given really cold conditions water ice falls form fast. The problem with the current weather is although there have been the odd cold night in general it hasn't been consistently really cold just a bit colder than average.

That said if the ground and water was already well cooled it probably wouldn't need to be as cold for water ice to form quickly, but IMO it certainly doesn't preclude it.

I can give examples for Scotland. November 2010 it didn't really get cold properly until 22 November. People were ice climbing in beinn udalaidh 6 days later in OK conditions but November is really early season. Early November was fairly cool, but not much more so than average and there wouldn't have been a lot of time for the ground to cool down.

Out of interest I often hear this story about water ice not forming in really cold winters. I've only seen 3 really cold winters as an ice climber (09/10, 10/11 (early on), 12/13) and the ice has been fatter those years. Can you remember a sustained very cold winter when the downfall didn't form?

In reply to ruby2:

Here you go: youtube.com/watch?v=zGq-3TlswZs&

In reply to CurlyStevo:
There is really cold and really cold... the water needs to flow to build ice so there has to be a source: either the freeze has just happened or day temps have to rise at some point above freezing or sun melts the snow (and not so cold it freezes right through the river channel). My main point is a sudden hard freeze with water or snow up there sees me packing the axe(s) and heading in early morning (or more rarely at night... a great time for the main downfall before the muppets turn up and trash it).

In reply to Offwidth:
Yeah I know the theory just doesn't seem to happen that way in practice to me.

09/10 it was quite regularly -20 in the highland glens at night and very often -10 or lower and nowhere close to above freezing during the day. Snow laid on the ground from around Pitlochery and north for something like 10 weeks! All the known water ice falls were in great nick

Late November & December 10/11 was also very cold, ice also formed well at all the water ice venues I know of no mater if formed from springs or streams or seepage.

In general water courses don't freeze solid same as lakes sea etc, only so much of the top freezes IMO.

I did Eas Annie during a very sustained cold patch in 09/10 it was -20 on the way over, saw some water dribbling over the ice. Same in Cogne it had been between -10 & -20 for about a week at night and no where close to above freezing at either venue for some time, saw water flowing over the ice at -10 in dribbles at multiple ice falls (but not every one, but probably still flowing behind IMO).

Udlaidh 09/10, 10/11definitely got fatter during the sustained cold patch without needing to thaw too

Can you give me an example of a time when it was too cold over a decent length of time (say at least 2 weeks) for water ice falls to come in to nick (that form from summer streams / springs / seepage) and it definitely just wasn't because they weren't flowing at the time it froze as they were too dry?

I think a lot of the ice on the Ben (and similar) does need freeze thaw but that's because much of the ice forms from snow melt drainage not from frozen water courses.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm talking Kinder... no spring fed water-table based source up there as far as I know (just drainage from the peat). If there are springs even in really cold conditions ice will grow.

In reply to Offwidth:
Have you ever seen it too cold for kinder downfall to form? (talking a decent period of time here like at least 10 days and are you sure it wasn't just really dry and not flowing properly before the freeze?) All the pics I've seen the colder and more sustained cold over a period of time the fatter it is, doesn't seem to need thaws to get fatter from what I've seen, but then perhaps in unusual conditions?

If not which water ice falls (that form from summer / spring / autumn watercourses) were you thinking it can be too cold for them to form without a thaw and if so when?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sorry missed that but don't really understand it. The river can be dry because it's been cold and dry. If the river is dry the ice won't form or grow. In such conditions other falls in the area are more reliable (and I'm not saying which, given the bashing to death that occurred the last time I advertised something was in on here).

In reply to Offwidth:
which really sustained cold year did kinder not form (until a thaw occurred) ?

any other examples in the area with firm dates?

In reply to Offwidth:

But God forbid people here don't know that you know eh? So it would never do to simply not mention that.

In reply to Offwidth:


By "bashing to death", do you mean "climbing"?

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I have no idea of the dates.. I don't keep a diary but for years I was up there at any opportunity in the snow and that was my experience,

In reply to planetmarshall:

On a busy day these routes get queues and one incompetant climber can bring a climb down. When they have had traffic you only need to hook placements not bash the hell out of them. You might see this as some kind of daft democratic right... I see it as selfish. Anyhow if we insist on democracy I also have a right to say nothing (other than to those who will respect the climbs).

In reply to ruby2:

The theory works - to an extent. The cliffs around here do freeze. But if its been pretty dry prior to the freeze there's less run-off. So we get less water freezing.

If it suddenly froze tomorrow we'd be in climbing heaven because the cliffs are weeping heaps of water.

The runn off from Kinder is ground water, leaching through the peat and gradually perculating down until it reaches the rock bed etc., etc., If, there has been a particularily long spell of dry weather (weeks not days) then the run off will be less and you'll get less ice.

In Scotland in the big freeze of 1976 there were many smaller rivers with absolutely no running water. The water had frozen at the surface to its maximum depth until there simply was no more water. What didn't freeze ran off and as the blocks broke up all that was left was piles of slab ice along many, many stream beds.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Yeah that sounds believable, in that likely its a combination of factors (ie unusually dry weather prior, then very cold weather and also probably a water course that's susceptible to this type of thing). It seems very rare anyway for ice climbing on frozen water courses. I've not seen this happen in the last 10 years and the 09/10 winter was the coldest for over 40 years wasn't it? Pictures of Kinder Downfall showed it formed very well that year through the sustained cold period without any need for a thaw (perhaps the best in a very long time?). In my experience sustained cold is just what you normally need to bring these routes in at various venues that I've climbed in Scotland, Wales and Europe and thawing isn't normally necessary (unless its a snow ice / snow melt water line)

In reply to Offwidth:
OK well personally in the last 10 years I've not seen or heard of or seen this phenomenon although I have heard it can happen. I'm not saying it doesn't happen just that it must be pretty rare that its too cold for the classic water courses to form and a thaw is needed. Like I mentioned its probably a combination of factors rather than just too cold.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Things just haven't been that cold in the last 10 years and I fully acknowledged the other factors.. the water has to come from somewhere: snow or ice thaw, or draining bog sponge, or spring... on the other hand the effect of wind chill and evaporative cooling in just freezing conditions is massively understated (ie the times up there the ice forms super fast as the air carries moisture or blown water but the rock surface is below freezing).

In reply to Offwidth:
I believe the 09/10 winter was the coldest January since 1987 and the coldest winter overall since 1978 (for the UK as a whole)

As mentioned typically watercourses do not freeze solid usually only the top layer freezes and they are flowing underneath both the stream / river and the ice falls. Something many ice climbers see as a sign the ice fall isn't in great nick (which isn't often true IMO). The ground also will only freeze for the upper layer, although I seem to remember December 2010 was very cold especially in the northern Ireland (around -20 for many nights) and pipes were bursting well under the surface.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Like I said I went a lot for 2 decades as it was my primary venue to get club members 'used to' snow, winter moorland nav, nice scenery and a bit of short climbing fun on numerous locations around the edge.. we pretty much always went to the downfall for at least a look. My winter timetable meant I could normally get away on at least 3 mornings in the working week and of course at weekends if I was around and I was never short of those looking to go with me. It was 'in' often when it was supposed not to be and vice versa... talking to other keen locals they knew the same patterns (but often kept it quiet). Nearly every time I go I find something new.. last winter I climbed a semi-solid pristine snow cornice that had completely banked out one of the smaller falls.

Just how many times have you been up there? You can argue all you like based on theory but my experience is the downfall is a bit unusual (but not daftly so like you seemingly want to imply that I mean) . My experiences elsewhere in the mountains of Snowdonia, Lakes and Scotland was that the climbing was much more predictable: proper cold weather meant some guarenteed ice fun.

In reply to Offwidth:
Well without you being able to name a specific occurrences during a sustained cold patch that kinder wasn't formed due to sustained cold, it's hard to know if we are talking about the same things, perhaps your anecdotal evidence isn't very reliable.

You mentioned that cold conditions often mean no flow and no ice growth, my question wasn't specifically regarding kinder but it's an interesting use case as the Beinn Udlaidh guide says similar (which is why I was thinking about it) and you seem to have visited kinder in winter a number of times. I was querying if you've actually regularly seen this as I haven't seen it in the last 10 years ice climbing at any frozen watercourse ice venues and I wondered how common this really is. Anecdotally at most venues, I would say normally the reverse is true, the more sustained and deeper the cold spell the fatter and bluer the ice.

I'm not disputing this can happen btw or that it can happen more frequently at Kinder than other areas. Whilst I am disputing your claim it hasn't been cold enough in the last 10 years. As mentioned the 09/10 winter was the coldest for over 30 years. Also 2010 December was the coldest on record so I think there must be more factors to it than purely the cold which your opening post seemed to suggest. Also if you look back through the photos on here you can clearly see those winters had some of the fattest pure water ice climbs.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Can't comment. I was on a climbing holiday in the US from the end of the first cold bit of December 2010 when travel eased and was unusually busy on the preceeding weekends and at work. Snow was impressive in Nottingham.

In reply to Offwidth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_2009%E2%80%9310_in_Great_Britain_an...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_2010%E2%80%9311_in_Great_Britain_an...

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The bit you want is "Thousands of motorists across Sheffield became stranded on 1–7 December as up to as much as 2 feet of snow fell on the city with severe disruption across the county of South Yorkshire "...I wasnt up on Kinder that week and not so many others were either. Yes it was very definitely cold but I didn't experience it.

In reply to Offwidth:

Might have been a bit early, I don't think it had been cold enough for long enough by then. Interestingly the downfall didn't form as well as the 2010 / 13 winters that year, although logbook entries suggest it was still fattening up just before the thaw came late December and ascents were logged. Perhaps when the freeze occurred the downfall wasn't flowing as fast as some years, although we just don't have the data to know why.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Shit loads of snow and as cold as it gets and yet its not cold enough for long enough eh? Anyway found one pic from Dec 8th.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-walkers-above-a-frozen-kinder-downfall-in-...

In reply to Offwidth:
I think the average temperatures were still quite high until very late November / early december. I checked the logs for Aonach Mor AWS not that long ago, also that early in the year you'd expect the downfall to take a while to form.

Also checking UKC logs ( Central Direct (III) ) you can see the downfall did fatten up despite sustained cold with no thaws at that altitude as far as I know. You can even see between the 20th and 23rd the direct touched down. The thaw arrived december 28th.

Here pics from later that month
https://uphilldowndale.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/kinder-downfall-ice-6-1....
https://uphilldowndale.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/kinder-downfall-ice-4-1....

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Thaw is constant up there in any sun on a decent snow pack, even with air temps below freezing. Snow insulates the peat so water can reach the river and if its not too cold it can flow under a surface ice layer. This is part of the point I was making. Real bitter conditions up there are under the common dry days of grey winter high pressure sky: there is no source then for ice to form. In much warmer windy conditions close to the freezing point the downfall can form in a day or two. In cold sunny periods folowing heavy snow it forms but much more slowly and it's fighting the masess who try and bash it to pieces.

You keep spouting your theories though, as you are clearly not listening, nor seemingly been up there much, while those who go and watch and know pick the plums.

In reply to Offwidth:
Sounds like we are agreeing from different angles to me, perhaps you are not actually listening to what I'm saying?

In very cold sustained conditions it must be pretty rare for ice climbs (based on generally flowing watercourses) in the UK not too form eventually. They may take longer to form some years due to a host of different factors, which neither of us fully understand having not studied rigorously, however being dry when it becomes very cold may be a factor.

I have no interest in ice climbing in the winter wonder land of the peak and 'picking the plums'. I live in Scotland, I was just asking you specifically about this area as its an area you say you know well in winter and I was comparing it to other areas I climb where I have also seen it mentioned that sometimes it can be too cold for water ice climbs to form (as the water may be frozen at source). I was interesting in finding out how common this seems to be, as I haven't found it common at all. Perhaps the guidebook writer was meaning on the macro scale rather than over a number of weeks.

In reply to Offwidth:



There are no winter plums in the peak to pick!

In reply to LakesWinter:
Well I always found Downfall Direct bloody amazing even though in my visits its always been a good bit harder than a III (which is more like the grade of the wandering line broadly following the Mod). There is loads of other fun bits up there that can be done on the same day. Over the Moors lists the best winter stuff in the Peak and of the smaller ice lines undescribed on Kinder and elsewhere maybe size wise these constitute ice highballs rather than routes but you wouldn't want to fall off them.

In reply to Offwidth:

Fair enough - I agree that the less direct lines are quite stiff for III too

In reply to CurlyStevo:

So what? All the starred stuff described in OtM is based on good conditions quality across the UK according to experienced UK winter climbers, more than a few of whom will have done those 2 routes. OtM also has the direct at a more sensible grade of IV 5**

In reply to Offwidth:
I was talking grade V not tech 5. I think you seem the same pattern across the board, the longer ice climbs at around WI3+/WI4, and Scottish V and up are often just so much more impressive.

Anyway two stars means an important climb for that area IIRC, given the lack of good ice climbing in the Peak you can't really compare two stars there with 2 in Scotland never mind the 4 star classics we get up here :P

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The direct has been about WI 4 when I've done it. These OtM grades are not soft. The star systems are the standard national ones used in BMC guides. I've climbed ice up to V in Scotland and elsewhere and the Downfall Direct is good for its 2 stars and better IMHO than many a current 2 star scottish route.... so keep digging, a belay will be there somewhere.