This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Irrespective of their religious beliefs, are Brits really any better than the average Muslim woman at learning their host's language when living abroad? (whether working or not )
" 22% of Muslim women in England said to speak little or no English."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35342270
" 22% of Muslim women in England said to speak little or no English."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35342270
4
In reply to Jim C:
Its not clear from the reports, but won't the 22% refer to British Muslims, rather than Pakistani (say) Muslims living here temporarily?
Its not clear from the reports, but won't the 22% refer to British Muslims, rather than Pakistani (say) Muslims living here temporarily?
Post edited at 13:00
1
In reply to Jim C:
There is no need to learn Johnny Foreigner's language when living in his country.
Just shout loudly at him and talk slowly in pigeon English to him as one would to an imbecile, and he'll get the gist of what you are saying.
There is no need to learn Johnny Foreigner's language when living in his country.
Just shout loudly at him and talk slowly in pigeon English to him as one would to an imbecile, and he'll get the gist of what you are saying.
21
1
In reply to Jim C:
It depends on the individual. My wife did when she lived in France. And as a self-confessed language-loather, I'd try to too if I lived abroad.
It depends on the individual. My wife did when she lived in France. And as a self-confessed language-loather, I'd try to too if I lived abroad.
In reply to Jim C:
Dunno. But what of it? That's an issue for the countries Brits go to.
Do you think it would be a good idea for the UK to help Muslim women speak English?
> Irrespective of their religious beliefs, are Brits really any better than the average Muslim woman at learning their host's language when living abroad? (whether working or not )
Dunno. But what of it? That's an issue for the countries Brits go to.
Do you think it would be a good idea for the UK to help Muslim women speak English?
7
1
34
In reply to Jim C:
I've lived in Wales for 30 years and made no attempt to learn Welsh. All the locals have taken the trouble to learn English, so I'm fine.
I've lived in Wales for 30 years and made no attempt to learn Welsh. All the locals have taken the trouble to learn English, so I'm fine.
14
5
In reply to Sir Chasm:
One concern is Cameron only really mentioning Muslim women in his statement.
There's plenty of other 'kinds' of immigrants who struggle with speaking no or little English, and there's no correlation between radicalisation and poor English, too.
Which isn't to say it wouldn't be empowering to speak better English, for any who struggle, including Muslim women.
Rather than talking about the possibility of deportation in a statement (which might be seen as feeding a narrative of otherness, in singling out Muslim women), a more productive way of empowering (visibly) Muslim women might be to do something about the rate of attacks on women wearing head scarves, whom I gather bear the brunt of instances of anti-Muslim attacks in the street, despite head scarves being cultural in part as well as religious.
One concern is Cameron only really mentioning Muslim women in his statement.
There's plenty of other 'kinds' of immigrants who struggle with speaking no or little English, and there's no correlation between radicalisation and poor English, too.
Which isn't to say it wouldn't be empowering to speak better English, for any who struggle, including Muslim women.
Rather than talking about the possibility of deportation in a statement (which might be seen as feeding a narrative of otherness, in singling out Muslim women), a more productive way of empowering (visibly) Muslim women might be to do something about the rate of attacks on women wearing head scarves, whom I gather bear the brunt of instances of anti-Muslim attacks in the street, despite head scarves being cultural in part as well as religious.
Post edited at 13:59
9
6
In reply to Jim C:
I did. I now talk about Garbage, Hoods and Trunks. Knickers and suspenders have a whole new meaning and I can use the term "Wanker" whenever I like.
I did. I now talk about Garbage, Hoods and Trunks. Knickers and suspenders have a whole new meaning and I can use the term "Wanker" whenever I like.
8
In reply to Jim C:
It is a dubious comparison.
Many places we emmigrate they speak English or a variant, think of Canada, Australia and Scotland.
Other places such as India the professional and wealthier classes speak English
Places like Spain where we retire, we are a customer bringing in money and it is to the loacals benefit to speak our Lingo.
When we are abroad we tend not to be disadvantaged but these muslim women possibly are, so this is a much more complex issue. Involving sexual equality and cultural intergration.
Is this fair no, but then lifes not is it.
It is a dubious comparison.
Many places we emmigrate they speak English or a variant, think of Canada, Australia and Scotland.
Other places such as India the professional and wealthier classes speak English
Places like Spain where we retire, we are a customer bringing in money and it is to the loacals benefit to speak our Lingo.
When we are abroad we tend not to be disadvantaged but these muslim women possibly are, so this is a much more complex issue. Involving sexual equality and cultural intergration.
Is this fair no, but then lifes not is it.
16
8
In reply to Jim C:
In my experience of having lived an worked in France, Italy and Sweden is that at the very least most Brits that I met who knew that they will be resident in another country for any length of time at least made an effort to learn enough of the native language to get by, not fluent, but enough to go shopping, eat out and make friends without the need to thumb their way througha phrasebook. There is always a sizable minority that make zero effort and spend most of their time down the English pub drinking Fosters and watching Sky sports.
In my experience of having lived an worked in France, Italy and Sweden is that at the very least most Brits that I met who knew that they will be resident in another country for any length of time at least made an effort to learn enough of the native language to get by, not fluent, but enough to go shopping, eat out and make friends without the need to thumb their way througha phrasebook. There is always a sizable minority that make zero effort and spend most of their time down the English pub drinking Fosters and watching Sky sports.
10
1
In reply to Jim C:
I learned French when I went there as a postdoc for 18 months. And improved my French when I cam back several years later for a job. I also try to learn at least a few phrases in most countries I visit for work, although I admit my German, Polish, etc is very poor (I find Italian, Spanish etc much easier).
I suspect the destination makes a difference, I suspect living in France & not speaking French is difficult outside a few places (Paris, Chamonix) with a lot of foreigners but living in e.g the Netherlands or Norway with only English is much easier
I learned French when I went there as a postdoc for 18 months. And improved my French when I cam back several years later for a job. I also try to learn at least a few phrases in most countries I visit for work, although I admit my German, Polish, etc is very poor (I find Italian, Spanish etc much easier).
I suspect the destination makes a difference, I suspect living in France & not speaking French is difficult outside a few places (Paris, Chamonix) with a lot of foreigners but living in e.g the Netherlands or Norway with only English is much easier
2
In reply to Jim C:
When I was working in France and francophone Africa I used (and improved) my school French. I'll speak French on my next weekend break in Paris
I learned Norwegian when working in Norway and became reasonably fluent in it.
I'm learning Russian now that I spend 2-3 months a year working in Russia. It's not fluent (yet), but I can hold a conversation and even sing the odd song in it. Most of the Brits I work with out there have made *some* attempt to learn Russian, unlike most of the Americans. At the end of my first summer there one of the bar staff in my local said "you've only been here a few months and already you speak better Russian than some Americans who've been here for 8 years".
If you're going to spend a considerable time living/ working somewhere I think you owe it to both yourself and your host country to make an effort to communicate in the local language. Even for short visits I like to learn a few words or phrases, just to be able to order a beer or offer a polite greeting.
> Irrespective of their religious beliefs, are Brits really any better than the average Muslim woman at learning their host's language when living abroad? (whether working or not )
When I was working in France and francophone Africa I used (and improved) my school French. I'll speak French on my next weekend break in Paris
I learned Norwegian when working in Norway and became reasonably fluent in it.
I'm learning Russian now that I spend 2-3 months a year working in Russia. It's not fluent (yet), but I can hold a conversation and even sing the odd song in it. Most of the Brits I work with out there have made *some* attempt to learn Russian, unlike most of the Americans. At the end of my first summer there one of the bar staff in my local said "you've only been here a few months and already you speak better Russian than some Americans who've been here for 8 years".
If you're going to spend a considerable time living/ working somewhere I think you owe it to both yourself and your host country to make an effort to communicate in the local language. Even for short visits I like to learn a few words or phrases, just to be able to order a beer or offer a polite greeting.
11
In reply to Jim C:
I live in an Arabic country and I don't speak anywhere near as much Arabic as I'd like to. I can get by with pleasantries and the basics in shops but despite doing a short course I found it a very hard language to learn.
I previously lived in China for a year and found the language there much easier...having the basics after just a year. As others have said though, it's often to do with necessity. We lived in a "small" Chinese city with just over a million people, only about 10 of whom were not Chinese. I had to learn the basics to make life easier. Now in the gulf, despite Arabic being the official language most of the people I deal with are western, Indian, Bangladeshi, Philippino etc, so we all communicate in English. If I had a little more daily contact with the locals I'd probably try to learn more Arabic, but it'd be more beneficial here to learn an Indian language.
I live in an Arabic country and I don't speak anywhere near as much Arabic as I'd like to. I can get by with pleasantries and the basics in shops but despite doing a short course I found it a very hard language to learn.
I previously lived in China for a year and found the language there much easier...having the basics after just a year. As others have said though, it's often to do with necessity. We lived in a "small" Chinese city with just over a million people, only about 10 of whom were not Chinese. I had to learn the basics to make life easier. Now in the gulf, despite Arabic being the official language most of the people I deal with are western, Indian, Bangladeshi, Philippino etc, so we all communicate in English. If I had a little more daily contact with the locals I'd probably try to learn more Arabic, but it'd be more beneficial here to learn an Indian language.
Post edited at 15:43
4
In reply to Jim C:
All of the Brits I know who live abroad have made the effort to learn the local lingo.
I guess a lot on the Costa Del **(insert typical ex-pat Spanish resort here) probably don't learn Spanish. I am shamelessly stereotyping here, sorry.
My 2p on the over all issue you are alluding to is that you should be able speak the local lingo well enough to handle day to day life (doctors, leisure centre, shopping, restaurant etc) if you can't then you are not going to integrate in the community well enough and you will over all become a drain on already stretched resources. If your other half doesn't allow you to then he isn't doing his part to integrate either.
All of the Brits I know who live abroad have made the effort to learn the local lingo.
I guess a lot on the Costa Del **(insert typical ex-pat Spanish resort here) probably don't learn Spanish. I am shamelessly stereotyping here, sorry.
My 2p on the over all issue you are alluding to is that you should be able speak the local lingo well enough to handle day to day life (doctors, leisure centre, shopping, restaurant etc) if you can't then you are not going to integrate in the community well enough and you will over all become a drain on already stretched resources. If your other half doesn't allow you to then he isn't doing his part to integrate either.
1
In reply to Jim C:
There is an irony in a man who never socialises outside a very small group of people in a strange alien culture I know very little about telling muslim women to effectively get out more
There is an irony in a man who never socialises outside a very small group of people in a strange alien culture I know very little about telling muslim women to effectively get out more
6
3
In reply to toad:
I'm going to move to Los Angeles in a few months and I have vowed to resolutely refuse to use californian lingo.
I'm going to move to Los Angeles in a few months and I have vowed to resolutely refuse to use californian lingo.
Post edited at 16:18
5
In reply to Jim C:
Before I moved to the UK 19 years ago, I went to the dentist and told him to take me off the books as I was about to move to Scotland. To this day I am not sure how serious he was when he asked me "Do you speak the language?"
Anyway, I duly learned Gaelic (e.g., Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan. The opportunity to use that phrase arises equally with opportunities to actually speak Gaelic).
Before I moved to the UK 19 years ago, I went to the dentist and told him to take me off the books as I was about to move to Scotland. To this day I am not sure how serious he was when he asked me "Do you speak the language?"
Anyway, I duly learned Gaelic (e.g., Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan. The opportunity to use that phrase arises equally with opportunities to actually speak Gaelic).
In reply to Jim C:
I'm seriously rubbish at languages and have no confidence when trying to learn them thanks to my experiences with the English language and the Welsh medium education system of the 1980s/90s. Even then I feel really embarrassed when I travel abroad and have little or no grasp of the local language, and that includes places where there is a high proportion of English language speakers in the population.
I keep saying I'm going to try and sort this out. When an ex was living in Germany I thought I'd give it a go to learn German but then we split and I started seeing a Polish woman so I thought I'd try Polish only to find that it's considered the second most difficult language in the world after Chinese.
I'm seriously rubbish at languages and have no confidence when trying to learn them thanks to my experiences with the English language and the Welsh medium education system of the 1980s/90s. Even then I feel really embarrassed when I travel abroad and have little or no grasp of the local language, and that includes places where there is a high proportion of English language speakers in the population.
I keep saying I'm going to try and sort this out. When an ex was living in Germany I thought I'd give it a go to learn German but then we split and I started seeing a Polish woman so I thought I'd try Polish only to find that it's considered the second most difficult language in the world after Chinese.
1
In reply to Brown:
Don't you just have to add an upwards inflection at the end of every sentence?
> I'm going to move to Los Angeles in a few months and I have vowed to resolutely refuse to use californian lingo.
Don't you just have to add an upwards inflection at the end of every sentence?
1
In reply to gethin_allen:
Polish is nails. Much harder than Russian I think. I'm trying to get to a conversational level in it and finding it hard work. At least there are plenty of folks around to practise with.
> I'm seriously rubbish at languages and have no confidence when trying to learn them thanks to my experiences with the English language and the Welsh medium education system of the 1980s/90s. Even then I feel really embarrassed when I travel abroad and have little or no grasp of the local language, and that includes places where there is a high proportion of English language speakers in the population.
> I keep saying I'm going to try and sort this out. When an ex was living in Germany I thought I'd give it a go to learn German but then we split and I started seeing a Polish woman so I thought I'd try Polish only to find that it's considered the second most difficult language in the world after Chinese.
Polish is nails. Much harder than Russian I think. I'm trying to get to a conversational level in it and finding it hard work. At least there are plenty of folks around to practise with.
3
In reply to gethin_allen:
No one is rubbish at languages.
Every human being is capable of learning a language and we all do. It just gets harder as we get older. We are hardwired to learn any amount of languages when we are young - like small children. Unfortunately as we get older the hardwiring simply starts to disappear.
No one is rubbish at languages.
Every human being is capable of learning a language and we all do. It just gets harder as we get older. We are hardwired to learn any amount of languages when we are young - like small children. Unfortunately as we get older the hardwiring simply starts to disappear.
2
3
In reply to Dave Perry:
I think I'm "rubbish at languages."
I can muddle through with enough effort, and if I lived somewhere I'd try a lot harder than I did in school. But there are a lot of people who pick them up a lot easier than I do; which is fine, I pick up maths & science a lot easier than a lot of people.
I think I'm "rubbish at languages."
I can muddle through with enough effort, and if I lived somewhere I'd try a lot harder than I did in school. But there are a lot of people who pick them up a lot easier than I do; which is fine, I pick up maths & science a lot easier than a lot of people.
2
In reply to Brown:
I gather Americas don't know what queue means and talk about going to 'stand in line' instead.
> I'm going to move to Los Angeles in a few months and I have vowed to resolutely refuse to use californian lingo.
I gather Americas don't know what queue means and talk about going to 'stand in line' instead.
2
1
In reply to Jim C:
Slightly different perspective as I am not British. Being a foreigner student in the UK, I guess I made a good enough effort to improve my English. It was nowhere as good as it is now, but it's far from perfect either.
I work at a restaurant part-time and we have one person who does not speak English at all. I asked what's her name and she just did not understand what I was asking. I technically supervise her, but there is another supervisor who is Polish and he does not see a problem with her. It's been couple of months since we hired her and I still did not hear a single English word from her. Just weird.
Slightly different perspective as I am not British. Being a foreigner student in the UK, I guess I made a good enough effort to improve my English. It was nowhere as good as it is now, but it's far from perfect either.
I work at a restaurant part-time and we have one person who does not speak English at all. I asked what's her name and she just did not understand what I was asking. I technically supervise her, but there is another supervisor who is Polish and he does not see a problem with her. It's been couple of months since we hired her and I still did not hear a single English word from her. Just weird.
4
In reply to PPP:
Be careful, she may understand 90% or more and just be shy and/or judging you.
I lived in Finland for over a decade and failed to master Finnish. I can give all sorts of excuses for this, some aren't actually that bad, but over all it comes down to the fact it's a hard, very different language and 90% of Finns speak serviceable to excellent English - so you can get a long way not speaking it.
You do start to really understand what white privilege means though: as a highly educated, western European, white man Finns would apologise to me for not speaking great English (they normally did). When I started doing an intensive Finnish course with Russian, African and Middle Eastern people, the reactions they got when trying to get by using English (my mates on the course all spoke great English) was utterly different and, too often, just outrageously racist.
> It's been couple of months since we hired her and I still did not hear a single English word from her. Just weird.
Be careful, she may understand 90% or more and just be shy and/or judging you.
I lived in Finland for over a decade and failed to master Finnish. I can give all sorts of excuses for this, some aren't actually that bad, but over all it comes down to the fact it's a hard, very different language and 90% of Finns speak serviceable to excellent English - so you can get a long way not speaking it.
You do start to really understand what white privilege means though: as a highly educated, western European, white man Finns would apologise to me for not speaking great English (they normally did). When I started doing an intensive Finnish course with Russian, African and Middle Eastern people, the reactions they got when trying to get by using English (my mates on the course all spoke great English) was utterly different and, too often, just outrageously racist.
7
1
In reply to Jim C:
I hitched back from Le Buet to Cham once and tried to communicate in my halting French with the woman who gave me a lift. It turned out her English was excellent but she was really appreciative of my poor efforts. She then told me of the Brits she knew of who have been living in Cham for years and never make any effort to speak French for even the simplest things like ordering a coffee.
I hitched back from Le Buet to Cham once and tried to communicate in my halting French with the woman who gave me a lift. It turned out her English was excellent but she was really appreciative of my poor efforts. She then told me of the Brits she knew of who have been living in Cham for years and never make any effort to speak French for even the simplest things like ordering a coffee.
In reply to Jim C:
Muslim women coming to live in England and not bothering to learn English are just like Brits retiring to Spain and not bothering to learn Spanish - ignorant.
Wally
Muslim women coming to live in England and not bothering to learn English are just like Brits retiring to Spain and not bothering to learn Spanish - ignorant.
Wally
2
1
In reply to Bogwalloper:
It's possible that they haven't had the same opportunities to learn the language.
> Muslim women coming to live in England and not bothering to learn English are just like Brits retiring to Spain and not bothering to learn Spanish - ignorant.
> Wally
It's possible that they haven't had the same opportunities to learn the language.
5
1
In reply to Brown:
Give it a year or two and when you're totally psyched, having just sent that awesome 5.11 headwall splitter, you'll find yourself high-fiving your belay buddy and hollering things like "Dude! That was like, sooo Rad!! Did you see my awesome stemming moves? I totally owned that route*! Man, I'm, like, so freakin' stoked right now!?!!
And your hosts will appreciate your adorable efforts to learn their language.
Enjoy!
Eddie
* pronounced rout, of course, as in disorderly retreat of defeated troops.
> I'm going to move to Los Angeles in a few months and I have vowed to resolutely refuse to use californian lingo.
Give it a year or two and when you're totally psyched, having just sent that awesome 5.11 headwall splitter, you'll find yourself high-fiving your belay buddy and hollering things like "Dude! That was like, sooo Rad!! Did you see my awesome stemming moves? I totally owned that route*! Man, I'm, like, so freakin' stoked right now!?!!
And your hosts will appreciate your adorable efforts to learn their language.
Enjoy!
Eddie
* pronounced rout, of course, as in disorderly retreat of defeated troops.
12
In reply to Jim C:
In my job in healthcare, I have to admit it pisses me off when (most days) a Pakistani Muslim woman comes in to my room and can't speak a bloody word - or even follow simple instructions through a translater, often - despite having lived here for 20 years or more. Part of me wants to ask, "are you thick or something?"; but realistically there's context to consider. Is it fair to blame the individual when the expectations on them are extremely limited (as appears to be the case with many of my patients)?
Anyway, as much as it irritates me, Cameron is talking absolute complete bollocks. I don't object to the policy of needing to meet English skills requirements for Leave to Remain, but to paint it as a Muslim issue and linked to extremism is just pathetic drivel, as usual. It's an immigration policy and has benefits, it's not a way to deport baddies to stop them bombing us. I just hate having to listen to this crap when I turn the radio on.
In my job in healthcare, I have to admit it pisses me off when (most days) a Pakistani Muslim woman comes in to my room and can't speak a bloody word - or even follow simple instructions through a translater, often - despite having lived here for 20 years or more. Part of me wants to ask, "are you thick or something?"; but realistically there's context to consider. Is it fair to blame the individual when the expectations on them are extremely limited (as appears to be the case with many of my patients)?
Anyway, as much as it irritates me, Cameron is talking absolute complete bollocks. I don't object to the policy of needing to meet English skills requirements for Leave to Remain, but to paint it as a Muslim issue and linked to extremism is just pathetic drivel, as usual. It's an immigration policy and has benefits, it's not a way to deport baddies to stop them bombing us. I just hate having to listen to this crap when I turn the radio on.
Post edited at 22:37
9
5
In reply to Jim C:
I didn't learn Norwegian but most people spoke English but I spent time in East Africa and could do basis of Swahili at the time...
Cameron's ignorance on show again!
I didn't learn Norwegian but most people spoke English but I spent time in East Africa and could do basis of Swahili at the time...
Cameron's ignorance on show again!
3
1
In reply to Reggie Perrin:
Seriously? You can emigrate to Scotland? When did it become a country?
> Many places we emmigrate they speak English or a variant, think of Canada, Australia and Scotland.
Seriously? You can emigrate to Scotland? When did it become a country?
2
4
In reply to Jon Stewart: Is it mainly older women? Or is it also some younger women - still seems to be quite a few British south asian men set up with "good girls from back home" by parents. You can read some pretty amazing stories about women brought to the UK like that and utterly marginalised - completely dependent on husband (husband's family) to help them navigate around society.
But yes, crap as you say in as much as non-Muslim migrants also don't necessarily speak good english either AND that ISIS doesn't seem to attract many Urdu only speaking 50 year old women from Bradford or Oldham, not really the right demographic for Prevent to be working on...
But yes, crap as you say in as much as non-Muslim migrants also don't necessarily speak good english either AND that ISIS doesn't seem to attract many Urdu only speaking 50 year old women from Bradford or Oldham, not really the right demographic for Prevent to be working on...
6
1
6
1
In reply to Jim C:
In Germany I barely did. I worked in an international research center, so our first language was always english. We did get lessons and I'd use it but basically I could just get by, order food, beer exchange pleasantries.. generally awful tbh..
In Germany I barely did. I worked in an international research center, so our first language was always english. We did get lessons and I'd use it but basically I could just get by, order food, beer exchange pleasantries.. generally awful tbh..
1
1
In reply to Reggie Perrin:
This is a highly dubious claim. Working age immigrants (even, God forbid, poor ones) are net contributors as they work and are far less likely to use healthcare and welfare services than old people. Old people are much more. Likely to need healthcare and, beyond paying over the odds for their house, don't contribute that much to the economy. Even if that weren't true, it may well be to the locals benefit to learn English, but that doesn't make English residents in Spain incomparable with Pakistani residents in the UK. In both cases speaking the local language would be better for integration and probably improve the experience of both hosts and immigrants.
> Places like Spain where we retire, we are a customer bringing in money and it is to the loacals benefit to speak our Lingo.
This is a highly dubious claim. Working age immigrants (even, God forbid, poor ones) are net contributors as they work and are far less likely to use healthcare and welfare services than old people. Old people are much more. Likely to need healthcare and, beyond paying over the odds for their house, don't contribute that much to the economy. Even if that weren't true, it may well be to the locals benefit to learn English, but that doesn't make English residents in Spain incomparable with Pakistani residents in the UK. In both cases speaking the local language would be better for integration and probably improve the experience of both hosts and immigrants.
3
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I think you are wrong, it is very much certain sectors of society that don't want to mix as they see their culture and religion as being superior.
In Sweden all immigrants or migrant workers can have free Swedish lessons up to a basic level, that is EU workers, refugees, asylum seekers etc.. often in the same place, assessed and then streamed into groups as best they can. As I am self employed I tailored my work and attended for a little while (then gave up as it's 40km each way and was eating into my time too much).
There were a few Europeans, a yank, a Chilean.... all desperate to learn, most of us working to some level already or desperate to progress. The classes were only half days, 3hrs once you remove breaks, so most educated Europeans were asking if they could do more etc.. When I went home to work, many of the Europeans/Americans would head off to the library etc.. to study more.
The other migrants, weren't interested, some had been there years bearing mind this is learning the basics at primary school level first. Others had been in Sweden 5 or 6 years and had only just got around to it, there is now a more mandatory system where their money is tied to attendance, but that doesn't mean they learn, they just attend. It was primarily more muslim women than men, the men would drop them off at the door(expensive car ) them pick them up to remove any chance of mixing. The staff described the t-bar as the Baghdad cafe. I think the men just wanted to put the feet up and let the women deal with the administration or school staff etc.. where Swedish is near essential.
Languages lessons will work for the new refugees, but they must scatter them in housing far and wide, forcing them to communicate in English with their new native neighbours. Whilst there were many moans when those few families were stuck on the Scottish outer isles, but they will be in society far quicker than putting them in Bradford. If you have come from Syria etc.. in genuine fear, then being placed with friends or fellow country man should not really be a priority.
The only fast way to learn a language is immersion, dabbling with a few lessons won't work.
> Cameron is talking absolute complete bollocks. I don't object to the policy of needing to meet English skills requirements for Leave to Remain, but to paint it as a Muslim issue and linked to extremism is just pathetic drivel,
I think you are wrong, it is very much certain sectors of society that don't want to mix as they see their culture and religion as being superior.
In Sweden all immigrants or migrant workers can have free Swedish lessons up to a basic level, that is EU workers, refugees, asylum seekers etc.. often in the same place, assessed and then streamed into groups as best they can. As I am self employed I tailored my work and attended for a little while (then gave up as it's 40km each way and was eating into my time too much).
There were a few Europeans, a yank, a Chilean.... all desperate to learn, most of us working to some level already or desperate to progress. The classes were only half days, 3hrs once you remove breaks, so most educated Europeans were asking if they could do more etc.. When I went home to work, many of the Europeans/Americans would head off to the library etc.. to study more.
The other migrants, weren't interested, some had been there years bearing mind this is learning the basics at primary school level first. Others had been in Sweden 5 or 6 years and had only just got around to it, there is now a more mandatory system where their money is tied to attendance, but that doesn't mean they learn, they just attend. It was primarily more muslim women than men, the men would drop them off at the door(expensive car ) them pick them up to remove any chance of mixing. The staff described the t-bar as the Baghdad cafe. I think the men just wanted to put the feet up and let the women deal with the administration or school staff etc.. where Swedish is near essential.
Languages lessons will work for the new refugees, but they must scatter them in housing far and wide, forcing them to communicate in English with their new native neighbours. Whilst there were many moans when those few families were stuck on the Scottish outer isles, but they will be in society far quicker than putting them in Bradford. If you have come from Syria etc.. in genuine fear, then being placed with friends or fellow country man should not really be a priority.
The only fast way to learn a language is immersion, dabbling with a few lessons won't work.
Post edited at 08:14
2
2
In reply to Jim C:
I've moved to the Netherlands and despite most of the Dutch speaking better English than most of the English do, I am learning Clog. The fact that my Dutch girlfriend stands behind me with a whip has nothing to do with it.
I've moved to the Netherlands and despite most of the Dutch speaking better English than most of the English do, I am learning Clog. The fact that my Dutch girlfriend stands behind me with a whip has nothing to do with it.
1
In reply to summo:
I can speak Norwegian, also read and write in Norwegian. I know several folk who have been in country for 20 odd years who could just about order a beer.
I'm not sure if it's on a Kommune by Kommune basis, but Norwegian lessons are only free to asylum seekers, otherwise the fee is 9000kr a semester (at least in Aust Agder).
In my experience, the only Brits or western/Northern Europeans who have taken a Norwegian course have either been sponsored by a company or wished to study here.
Fully agree with the immersion statement, especially with the vast range of variation between local dialects.
I can speak Norwegian, also read and write in Norwegian. I know several folk who have been in country for 20 odd years who could just about order a beer.
I'm not sure if it's on a Kommune by Kommune basis, but Norwegian lessons are only free to asylum seekers, otherwise the fee is 9000kr a semester (at least in Aust Agder).
In my experience, the only Brits or western/Northern Europeans who have taken a Norwegian course have either been sponsored by a company or wished to study here.
Fully agree with the immersion statement, especially with the vast range of variation between local dialects.
In reply to gethin_allen:
Is it really? I won a scholarship to a summer school at Mikolai Kopernik university in Torun in 1974. I was only there a few weeks, but managed to pick up a decent amount of Polish (mind you, I was the only non-Pole at the so I had to. Fortunately it was mostly observational astronomy). I found it fairly intuitive. In fact, my residual 40-year-old Polish has negatively impacted my more recent learning of Russian as quite a lot of the vocabulary is just close enough to be confusing ( I still get an urge to say "djen dobri" instead of "dobra djen" sometimes).
> I keep saying I'm going to try and sort this out. When an ex was living in Germany I thought I'd give it a go to learn German but then we split and I started seeing a Polish woman so I thought I'd try Polish only to find that it's considered the second most difficult language in the world after Chinese.
Is it really? I won a scholarship to a summer school at Mikolai Kopernik university in Torun in 1974. I was only there a few weeks, but managed to pick up a decent amount of Polish (mind you, I was the only non-Pole at the so I had to. Fortunately it was mostly observational astronomy). I found it fairly intuitive. In fact, my residual 40-year-old Polish has negatively impacted my more recent learning of Russian as quite a lot of the vocabulary is just close enough to be confusing ( I still get an urge to say "djen dobri" instead of "dobra djen" sometimes).
In reply to Jim C:
I'd agree with that. Most British people I meet in Norway are determined not to speak anything more than the most basic Norwegian. For a large subset it's also essential to socialise mostly with British people. If you're an american on a fixed 3 year deal , in an english speaking major with kids in a British speaking school I suppose its more acceptable than if you're married, with kids, and still refusing.
And note I use the word british not english, as it's not just the english.
I'd agree with that. Most British people I meet in Norway are determined not to speak anything more than the most basic Norwegian. For a large subset it's also essential to socialise mostly with British people. If you're an american on a fixed 3 year deal , in an english speaking major with kids in a British speaking school I suppose its more acceptable than if you're married, with kids, and still refusing.
And note I use the word british not english, as it's not just the english.
2
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I'm finding it the other way around. I picked up Polish quite readily (though I was 19 at the time so my brain was probably less ossified) but Russian has taken me quite a while to get to grips with (although I think my Russian grammar is now better by far than my Polish ever was). I can even sing a few songs in Russian now:
youtube.com/watch?v=geXpSSKVyow&
> Polish is nails. Much harder than Russian I think. I'm trying to get to a conversational level in it and finding it hard work. At least there are plenty of folks around to practise with.
I'm finding it the other way around. I picked up Polish quite readily (though I was 19 at the time so my brain was probably less ossified) but Russian has taken me quite a while to get to grips with (although I think my Russian grammar is now better by far than my Polish ever was). I can even sing a few songs in Russian now:
youtube.com/watch?v=geXpSSKVyow&
Post edited at 09:32
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Are you sure about that? Woman comes to the UK to get married, starts a family then fails the test after five years and gets deported. Cue screaming British kid on the telly pleading "where are they taking my mummy?". Then a long, drawn-out court case based around the right to a family life - an ongoing poltical, legal and public relations cock-up.
Of course the only way to avoid this would be to make the test so basic and straightforward that it's almost impossible to fail, which would make it a useless piece of government bureaucracy - exactly the sort of thing the Conservatives are supposed to dislike.
Incidentally, I'm all for teaching new arrivals to speak English. Breaking up a family on the basis of a test, however, strikes me as basically stupid as tests can be gamed, mismarked, or simply people have a bad day or nerves.
> I don't object to the policy of needing to meet English skills requirements for Leave to Remain...
Are you sure about that? Woman comes to the UK to get married, starts a family then fails the test after five years and gets deported. Cue screaming British kid on the telly pleading "where are they taking my mummy?". Then a long, drawn-out court case based around the right to a family life - an ongoing poltical, legal and public relations cock-up.
Of course the only way to avoid this would be to make the test so basic and straightforward that it's almost impossible to fail, which would make it a useless piece of government bureaucracy - exactly the sort of thing the Conservatives are supposed to dislike.
Incidentally, I'm all for teaching new arrivals to speak English. Breaking up a family on the basis of a test, however, strikes me as basically stupid as tests can be gamed, mismarked, or simply people have a bad day or nerves.
2
Will this be just for immigrants ? One of grandmothers was never really fluent in English & used to struggle to talk to me, my sister & our cousins as our Spanish was very poor - but she was 'British' (born in Gibraltar) & I suppose safe from being deported (she arrived in the UK when the UK military moved all the civilians out of Gib during WWII).
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Yes I totally agree with people coming to the UK to live or work learning to speak the language. My generation just don't have a good record ourselves of integrating and learning other contrie's languages, but maybe the younger generation will be better.
> Dunno. But what of it? That's an issue for the countries Brits go to.
> Do you think it would be a good idea for the UK to help Muslim women speak English?
Yes I totally agree with people coming to the UK to live or work learning to speak the language. My generation just don't have a good record ourselves of integrating and learning other contrie's languages, but maybe the younger generation will be better.
Post edited at 12:45
In reply to MG:
As you say it is not clear, but what are the figures for jews, or whatever other groups ?
We need something to compare this to for us to have an idea if that is better or worse than 'average'.
And that includes perhaps comparing that to to what the % of brits that can speak the host language (of all religions) , are they more or less than this 22% 'benchmark' ?
22% sounds bad, and I quite agree it would be better that everyone was able to communicate in the host contries langauge wherever they live, but I would like to know how bad that is in comparison to what ?
> Its not clear from the reports, but won't the 22% refer to British Muslims, rather than Pakistani (say) Muslims living here temporarily?
As you say it is not clear, but what are the figures for jews, or whatever other groups ?
We need something to compare this to for us to have an idea if that is better or worse than 'average'.
And that includes perhaps comparing that to to what the % of brits that can speak the host language (of all religions) , are they more or less than this 22% 'benchmark' ?
22% sounds bad, and I quite agree it would be better that everyone was able to communicate in the host contries langauge wherever they live, but I would like to know how bad that is in comparison to what ?
In reply to crayefish:
My friend also went to the Netherlands about 10 years ago , he WAS going to learn the language, and get a job.
He did neither, and his wife kept him and he looked after their kids. He now fills his time coaching a school football team.
> I've moved to the Netherlands and despite most of the Dutch speaking better English than most of the English do, I am learning Clog. The fact that my Dutch girlfriend stands behind me with a whip has nothing to do with it.
My friend also went to the Netherlands about 10 years ago , he WAS going to learn the language, and get a job.
He did neither, and his wife kept him and he looked after their kids. He now fills his time coaching a school football team.
Post edited at 12:55
In reply to Removed User:
Sounds just like the language my kids have picked up over here from the TV and films.
> I did. I now talk about Garbage, Hoods and Trunks. Knickers and suspenders have a whole new meaning and I can use the term "Wanker" whenever I like.
Sounds just like the language my kids have picked up over here from the TV and films.
In reply to Dave Perry:
This is a bit of a myth. The reason adults often find learning a second language hard is that the way in which they learn it differs drastically from the first. Modern Language teaching in schools has a lot to answer for.
> No one is rubbish at languages.
> Every human being is capable of learning a language and we all do. It just gets harder as we get older.
This is a bit of a myth. The reason adults often find learning a second language hard is that the way in which they learn it differs drastically from the first. Modern Language teaching in schools has a lot to answer for.
2
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
My uncle went to Australia in the 60's and did not learn a word, he spoke with exactly the same Scottish Glaswegian accent and grammer as he did when he was living here.
(I have no idea how they understood him
My uncle went to Australia in the 60's and did not learn a word, he spoke with exactly the same Scottish Glaswegian accent and grammer as he did when he was living here.
(I have no idea how they understood him
In reply to TobyA:
That is a point made by others in the media, that those radicalised have been English speaking educated people. Cameron might have been better not to in any way tie the issue of learning a language and being suseptable to being radicalised.
> .. ISIS doesn't seem to attract many Urdu only speaking 50 year old women from Bradford or Oldham, not really the right demographic for Prevent to be working on...
That is a point made by others in the media, that those radicalised have been English speaking educated people. Cameron might have been better not to in any way tie the issue of learning a language and being suseptable to being radicalised.
1
In reply to Nordie_matt:
It is free in Sweden provided you are a resident of whatever form, or employed (have personal number). If you were an eu migrant job hunter staying for a few months then there is nothing. It is bug bear among some English speakers, as they think they have a right to work and employers shouldn't hold speaking or reading Swedish in such high regard, they refuse to learn it, then leave when their funds run out complaining their butts off. Residents from the usa seem worst for this English speaker superiority.
It is free in Sweden provided you are a resident of whatever form, or employed (have personal number). If you were an eu migrant job hunter staying for a few months then there is nothing. It is bug bear among some English speakers, as they think they have a right to work and employers shouldn't hold speaking or reading Swedish in such high regard, they refuse to learn it, then leave when their funds run out complaining their butts off. Residents from the usa seem worst for this English speaker superiority.
In reply to wbo:
I find that odd too. There's a Norwegian woman in my BMF class in Kent who lived over there with her British husband for 12 years before moving to the UK. He hardly speaks any Norwegian, despite having been "adopted" into a Norwegian family. She was surprised that (even 25 years after leaving Norway) I can hold a reasonable conversation with her, as most of her husband's expat friends and colleagues had likewise learned next to none! I find it almost incomprehensible that a bright person with a good job can spend 12 years in a country, with a native wife, in-laws and extended family, and not make some attempt to learn the language.
> I'd agree with that. Most British people I meet in Norway are determined not to speak anything more than the most basic Norwegian. For a large subset it's also essential to socialise mostly with British people. If you're an american on a fixed 3 year deal , in an english speaking major with kids in a British speaking school I suppose its more acceptable than if you're married, with kids, and still refusing.
I find that odd too. There's a Norwegian woman in my BMF class in Kent who lived over there with her British husband for 12 years before moving to the UK. He hardly speaks any Norwegian, despite having been "adopted" into a Norwegian family. She was surprised that (even 25 years after leaving Norway) I can hold a reasonable conversation with her, as most of her husband's expat friends and colleagues had likewise learned next to none! I find it almost incomprehensible that a bright person with a good job can spend 12 years in a country, with a native wife, in-laws and extended family, and not make some attempt to learn the language.
3
In reply to summo:
Sounds like a sensible enough system, I'm married to a Norwegian lassie and both our kids are born in Norway, I have employment, right to reside, fødselnummer etc, but have had to teach myself as 9000kr a semester was too much, and NAV made it clear that classes were only free for "Flyktninger" and therefore not me.
When I lived in Bergen there was a far higher percentage of folk who felt that they shouldn't have to learn Norwegian as "Sure they all speak English anyway...", however I must just add that in Sørlandet most of the foreigners (Russian, Dutch as well as Brit/Irish) I have met are either fluent or reasonably competent. This may be due to a less cosmopolitan populace who aren't as willing to speak English, but I couldn't say for sure.
Sounds like a sensible enough system, I'm married to a Norwegian lassie and both our kids are born in Norway, I have employment, right to reside, fødselnummer etc, but have had to teach myself as 9000kr a semester was too much, and NAV made it clear that classes were only free for "Flyktninger" and therefore not me.
> It is bug bear among some English speakers, as they think they have a right to work and employers shouldn't hold speaking or reading Swedish in such high regard, they refuse to learn it,<
When I lived in Bergen there was a far higher percentage of folk who felt that they shouldn't have to learn Norwegian as "Sure they all speak English anyway...", however I must just add that in Sørlandet most of the foreigners (Russian, Dutch as well as Brit/Irish) I have met are either fluent or reasonably competent. This may be due to a less cosmopolitan populace who aren't as willing to speak English, but I couldn't say for sure.
In reply to Jim C:
He could still learn a language at home
> My friend also went to the Netherlands about 10 years ago , he WAS going to learn the language, and get a job.
> He did neither, and his wife kept him and he looked after their kids. He now fills his time coaching a school football team.
He could still learn a language at home
In reply to Rob Naylor:
All I'd add (to general incomprehension of why you'd not want to speak the language of the country you're living in), on the basis of a year in Turkey ages ago when I made a fair effort to learn as much as I could, is how instantly rewarding it is - starting to understand what's going on around you as well as being able to communicate (a bit). Looking at that sentence my English clearly needs a bit of work...
(Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that - obstacles to learning - but I'm on a phone and most of those points have been made.)
All I'd add (to general incomprehension of why you'd not want to speak the language of the country you're living in), on the basis of a year in Turkey ages ago when I made a fair effort to learn as much as I could, is how instantly rewarding it is - starting to understand what's going on around you as well as being able to communicate (a bit). Looking at that sentence my English clearly needs a bit of work...
(Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that - obstacles to learning - but I'm on a phone and most of those points have been made.)
In reply to Jim C:
I spent about 10 years working in the Gulf. During my time in Saudi, I picked up a smattering of Arabic, (which was enough to exchange pleasantries and keep me out of trouble) - however as I was dealing with a number of nationaities, ( Arabs, Koreans, Indians, Pakistanis, French, German, Dutch, Swedes, Turks and Norwegians. Filipinos) English was the common business language - and most signs were written in English as well as Arabic.
When I went to work in the UAE, I came in to contact with so few Arabs, any Arabic I'd learned was largely wasted. Most of my work colleagues and customers were from the Indian suncontinent so I picked up a tiny bit of Hindi / Urdu. I had a great admiration for my boss - an Indian - who as well as being fluent in a number of Indian languages, was also fluent in English, Arabic and Farsi, and had a good understanding of German.
Without doubt, being a native English speaker does may you lazy, as almost all other nationalities will want to try and talk to you in English ( with the possible exception of the French).
I spent about 10 years working in the Gulf. During my time in Saudi, I picked up a smattering of Arabic, (which was enough to exchange pleasantries and keep me out of trouble) - however as I was dealing with a number of nationaities, ( Arabs, Koreans, Indians, Pakistanis, French, German, Dutch, Swedes, Turks and Norwegians. Filipinos) English was the common business language - and most signs were written in English as well as Arabic.
When I went to work in the UAE, I came in to contact with so few Arabs, any Arabic I'd learned was largely wasted. Most of my work colleagues and customers were from the Indian suncontinent so I picked up a tiny bit of Hindi / Urdu. I had a great admiration for my boss - an Indian - who as well as being fluent in a number of Indian languages, was also fluent in English, Arabic and Farsi, and had a good understanding of German.
Without doubt, being a native English speaker does may you lazy, as almost all other nationalities will want to try and talk to you in English ( with the possible exception of the French).
In reply to Rob Naylor:
I can see the benefit as well... Mind you I'd go potty being somewhere and not being able to converse with 95% of the people I met.
> with a good job can spend 12 years in a country, with a native wife, in-laws and extended family, and not make some attempt to learn the language.
I can see the benefit as well... Mind you I'd go potty being somewhere and not being able to converse with 95% of the people I met.
1
In reply to Nordie_matt:
that's a little harsh. Here if you qualify for residency, you qualify for lessons.
Rurally here, many 60+ year olds don't know much English at all. Plus whilst I could easily scrape by in English, speak Swedish, even badly, helps open doors and get better service from shops and businesses. They know instantly from the poor pronunciation and accent you aren't native, it's points for effort though!
The down side for me is that I / we speak a lot of English at home, at it has made the kids truly bilingual, but certainly slows my fluency down. I can cope, as it will be beneficial for the kids in the long run.
> right to reside, fødselnummer etc, but have had to teach myself as 9000kr a semester was too much, and NAV made it clear that classes were only free for "Flyktninger" and therefore not me.
that's a little harsh. Here if you qualify for residency, you qualify for lessons.
> When I lived in Bergen there was a far higher percentage of folk who felt that they shouldn't have to learn Norwegian as "Sure they all speak English anyway...", however I must just add that in Sørlandet most of the foreigners (Russian, Dutch as well as Brit/Irish) I have met are either fluent or reasonably competent. This may be due to a less cosmopolitan populace who aren't as willing to speak English, but I couldn't say for sure.
Rurally here, many 60+ year olds don't know much English at all. Plus whilst I could easily scrape by in English, speak Swedish, even badly, helps open doors and get better service from shops and businesses. They know instantly from the poor pronunciation and accent you aren't native, it's points for effort though!
The down side for me is that I / we speak a lot of English at home, at it has made the kids truly bilingual, but certainly slows my fluency down. I can cope, as it will be beneficial for the kids in the long run.
1
In reply to summo:
How/why do you think that about the UK?
> I think you are wrong, it is very much certain sectors of society that don't want to mix as they see their culture and religion as being superior.
How/why do you think that about the UK?
Post edited at 18:00
2
In reply to TobyA:
Yes it's (slightly) older women. The old grannies don't bother me (what can be done?), it's those who being their teenage daughters to translate that have me desperately trying to remain polite and upbeat.
To be honest I find it all very hard to identify with, the mindset is so far from my own.
> Is it mainly older women?
Yes it's (slightly) older women. The old grannies don't bother me (what can be done?), it's those who being their teenage daughters to translate that have me desperately trying to remain polite and upbeat.
To be honest I find it all very hard to identify with, the mindset is so far from my own.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I suppose that I've been that person relying on normally my wife to help me understand (the midwife's oddly complicated instructions to me, whilst my wife was in the process of giving birth comes to mind as one particularly bizarre moment!) I perhaps have some sympathy.
I guess there is a different story for everyone though - we sort of presume that those women really want to live in the UK whilst not actually knowing if that is the case or not. You can easily imagine a situation of twenty years of annoyance and regret at ending up in cold terraced house in England surrounded by people who have an utterly different culture to the one you grew up in, whose language you don't understand, and all because your mum and dad thought marrying you off to your second cousin in Luton was a great idea. That doesn't mean that having the chance to learn English wouldn't be a good thing, but I can see how some people get to the point where they have little inclination or outside incentive to learn.
I suppose that I've been that person relying on normally my wife to help me understand (the midwife's oddly complicated instructions to me, whilst my wife was in the process of giving birth comes to mind as one particularly bizarre moment!) I perhaps have some sympathy.
I guess there is a different story for everyone though - we sort of presume that those women really want to live in the UK whilst not actually knowing if that is the case or not. You can easily imagine a situation of twenty years of annoyance and regret at ending up in cold terraced house in England surrounded by people who have an utterly different culture to the one you grew up in, whose language you don't understand, and all because your mum and dad thought marrying you off to your second cousin in Luton was a great idea. That doesn't mean that having the chance to learn English wouldn't be a good thing, but I can see how some people get to the point where they have little inclination or outside incentive to learn.
1
In reply to Summo&Matt - I learnt very little Norwegian initially as I mixed with an international group and we spoke english at work. However life got a lot better once I learnt some Norwegian. Stavanger is an awful place to learn. Bergen is better and the way to learn fast it move to Trondheim, Harstad or somewhere small and remote.
My kids go to Norwegian schools, and I learnt more with them doing homework in Ny norsk.
Neither of my mother in laws have spoken a word of english for better or worst.
I am considering Norsk citizenship now in case the UK votes to leave europe.
I am currently working with a russian whos lived in Norway 10 years plus and I have never heard him speak a word of Norsk, ditto the Scottish drilling engineers.
My kids go to Norwegian schools, and I learnt more with them doing homework in Ny norsk.
Neither of my mother in laws have spoken a word of english for better or worst.
I am considering Norsk citizenship now in case the UK votes to leave europe.
I am currently working with a russian whos lived in Norway 10 years plus and I have never heard him speak a word of Norsk, ditto the Scottish drilling engineers.
In reply to Timmd:
superior religion or culture; name any other group in UK society that would have or has had exam times for school kids moved? Name any other branch of society that is allowed to legally kill animals in a less than a ideal way (ie. halal)... or the fact a child can be prevented from going to school for some strange haircut, but not for completely covering their face by claiming it is for religious reasons... I could go on...
> How/why do you think that about the UK?
superior religion or culture; name any other group in UK society that would have or has had exam times for school kids moved? Name any other branch of society that is allowed to legally kill animals in a less than a ideal way (ie. halal)... or the fact a child can be prevented from going to school for some strange haircut, but not for completely covering their face by claiming it is for religious reasons... I could go on...
2
In reply to TobyA:
I think to some degree it's a form of control, don't want all those muslim women getting ideas above their station, getting an education or a job.
> , but I can see how some people get to the point where they have little inclination or outside incentive to learn.
I think to some degree it's a form of control, don't want all those muslim women getting ideas above their station, getting an education or a job.
1
In reply to summo:
There's kosher slaughter too, you know? Couldn't it be as much about how accommodating wider society is, too?
Don't you think other religious people (on a certain level) think their way of living is better due to being (an attempt at) a way of living which is more 'holy'?
A Catholic I know seemed rather 'funny' about a stall of lovely old ladies who were Methodists, which I bought lots of knitted things from a couple of years ago.
If you're going to mention Muslims, I think you should talk about other religions too.
> superior religion or culture; name any other group in UK society that would have or has had exam times for school kids moved? Name any other branch of society that is allowed to legally kill animals in a less than a ideal way (ie. halal)... or the fact a child can be prevented from going to school for some strange haircut, but not for completely covering their face by claiming it is for religious reasons... I could go on...
There's kosher slaughter too, you know? Couldn't it be as much about how accommodating wider society is, too?
Don't you think other religious people (on a certain level) think their way of living is better due to being (an attempt at) a way of living which is more 'holy'?
A Catholic I know seemed rather 'funny' about a stall of lovely old ladies who were Methodists, which I bought lots of knitted things from a couple of years ago.
If you're going to mention Muslims, I think you should talk about other religions too.
Post edited at 21:50
3
In reply to summo:
For the £5 rollover...
Christians.
Kosher
Rastafarians, orthodox jews and sikhs are all excluded from those rules. Funnily enough, sikhs are even allowed to work in building sites, railways, etc. wearing no helmet. They must be a step above in superiority to Muslims?
For the £5 rollover...
> name any other group in UK society that would have or has had exam times for school kids moved?
Christians.
> Name any other branch of society that is allowed to legally kill animals in a less than a ideal way (ie. halal)
Kosher
> or the fact a child can be prevented from going to school for some strange haircut,
Rastafarians, orthodox jews and sikhs are all excluded from those rules. Funnily enough, sikhs are even allowed to work in building sites, railways, etc. wearing no helmet. They must be a step above in superiority to Muslims?
4
In reply to summo:
I wonder how the Brits would react if they were asked to leave Sweden for not learning their host's language .
Badly I would guess, but it would be hard to argue that it is not right that they do so.
I wonder how the Brits would react if they were asked to leave Sweden for not learning their host's language .
Badly I would guess, but it would be hard to argue that it is not right that they do so.
2
In reply to Jim C:
Go live in another country. Enjoy the difference. Learn some language. Share some language. Learn some ways. Share some ways. Share food.
Go live in another country. Enjoy the difference. Learn some language. Share some language. Learn some ways. Share some ways. Share food.
In reply to crayefish:
He could , but he not be bothered I suggest, like a lot of Brits.
> He could still learn a language at home
He could , but he not be bothered I suggest, like a lot of Brits.
In reply to summo:
Bernard Matthews.
> Name any other branch of society that is allowed to legally kill animals in a less than a ideal way (ie. halal)...
Bernard Matthews.
3
1
In reply to aln:
Good advice, but I think I would probably be deported from every non English speaking country that follows our lead
( and I would not be alone)
> Go live in another country. Enjoy the difference. Learn some language. Share some language. Learn some ways. Share some ways. Share food.
Good advice, but I think I would probably be deported from every non English speaking country that follows our lead
( and I would not be alone)
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Ok, you had to pick several different religions or cultures to match the various special cases of change I mentioned. One religion ticks all the boxes alone.
I am against all religions having any influence on society. It is 2016, not 1216 now.
Ok, you had to pick several different religions or cultures to match the various special cases of change I mentioned. One religion ticks all the boxes alone.
I am against all religions having any influence on society. It is 2016, not 1216 now.
1
In reply to Timmd:
that's fair.
They are all unproven medieval nonsense. The world would be a better place if educated western countries could set an example and move on from all religions. The UK can start by booting the bishops out of the lords and removing ALL forms of religion from education. Fair?
> If you're going to mention Muslims, I think you should talk about other religions too.
that's fair.
They are all unproven medieval nonsense. The world would be a better place if educated western countries could set an example and move on from all religions. The UK can start by booting the bishops out of the lords and removing ALL forms of religion from education. Fair?
9
In reply to Jim C:
The system kind of solves that anyway, without actually saying that.
Unless you work in a few niche sectors then employment in Sweden without speaking Swedish is near impossible.
You can't get a personal number in Sweden, which accesses healthcare, benefits, Swedish lessons, job seeking help etc.. pretty much everything, UNLESS you have either the means to fund yourself & health insurance, or a job. It's catch 22 for many Europeans, they arrive jobless and try to find work. But without paid for healthcare and language lessons the odds are low, they spend their savings then go home. Plus you have little choice, you might be able to get a printed booklet or handout in a few languages, but school, tax, banking information and websites are only in Swedish, life becomes very tough without the basics in the language. So as I said, self vetting to some degree.
Also with residency here and EU migrant work force rules, you are supposed to declare your arrival within 3months to migration, but are only allowed to stay 6 months job seeking, unless you prove you have at least the means to fund yourself for 2 years.
> I wonder how the Brits would react if they were asked to leave Sweden for not learning their host's language .
> Badly I would guess, but it would be hard to argue that it is not right that they do so.
> Badly I would guess, but it would be hard to argue that it is not right that they do so.
The system kind of solves that anyway, without actually saying that.
Unless you work in a few niche sectors then employment in Sweden without speaking Swedish is near impossible.
You can't get a personal number in Sweden, which accesses healthcare, benefits, Swedish lessons, job seeking help etc.. pretty much everything, UNLESS you have either the means to fund yourself & health insurance, or a job. It's catch 22 for many Europeans, they arrive jobless and try to find work. But without paid for healthcare and language lessons the odds are low, they spend their savings then go home. Plus you have little choice, you might be able to get a printed booklet or handout in a few languages, but school, tax, banking information and websites are only in Swedish, life becomes very tough without the basics in the language. So as I said, self vetting to some degree.
Also with residency here and EU migrant work force rules, you are supposed to declare your arrival within 3months to migration, but are only allowed to stay 6 months job seeking, unless you prove you have at least the means to fund yourself for 2 years.
3
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I see your turkeys and I raise you trawler caught fish.
> Bernard Matthews.
I see your turkeys and I raise you trawler caught fish.
1
In reply to summo:
It just happens that all different religions have their own cases, otherwise they would all be the same religion..
Society is made out of people. People have religions and traditions, hence you are saying that society should have no influence in society?
In 2016 we tolerate people of differnet religions and traditions, and so we aim to accomodate everyone regardless of it, unlke in 1216
> Ok, you had to pick several different religions or cultures to match the various special cases of change I mentioned. One religion ticks all the boxes alone.
It just happens that all different religions have their own cases, otherwise they would all be the same religion..
> I am against all religions having any influence on society.
Society is made out of people. People have religions and traditions, hence you are saying that society should have no influence in society?
In 2016 we tolerate people of differnet religions and traditions, and so we aim to accomodate everyone regardless of it, unlke in 1216
Post edited at 08:46
1
1
In reply to summo:
It does seem like the further behind I leave being a Catholic as a kid the less sense religion makes to me, but it's a human right too. I broadly agree, I don't think any segregation of children along religious lines is a very good thing.
> that's fair.
> They are all unproven medieval nonsense. The world would be a better place if educated western countries could set an example and move on from all religions. The UK can start by booting the bishops out of the lords and removing ALL forms of religion from education. Fair?
It does seem like the further behind I leave being a Catholic as a kid the less sense religion makes to me, but it's a human right too. I broadly agree, I don't think any segregation of children along religious lines is a very good thing.
Post edited at 19:23
1
In reply to TobyA:
I totally agree, I just find it hard to identify with since in my life, I'm responsible for all my decisions. Living in a country and not learning the language would not be a decision I would ever consider.
> You can easily imagine a situation of twenty years of annoyance and regret at ending up in cold terraced house in England surrounded by people who have an utterly different culture to the one you grew up in, whose language you don't understand, and all because your mum and dad thought marrying you off to your second cousin in Luton was a great idea.
I totally agree, I just find it hard to identify with since in my life, I'm responsible for all my decisions. Living in a country and not learning the language would not be a decision I would ever consider.
1
In reply to seankenny:
I'm not sure that this particular policy is workable (I think Cameron's saying that if, 2.5 years into the 5y spouse visa you're english is still totally non-existent, then you won't be granted the rest) - as you say, you can't split up families like this under the ECHR/HRA. I think it's just the usual bullshit of concocting a meaningless policy that actually doesn't apply to hardly anyone in order to put out a message in the press. But as a principle of English skills being part of a Leave to Remain decision, I'm in favour (and that's already in place I believe).
> Are you sure about that? Woman comes to the UK to get married, starts a family then fails the test after five years and gets deported. Cue screaming British kid on the telly pleading "where are they taking my mummy?". Then a long, drawn-out court case based around the right to a family life - an ongoing poltical, legal and public relations cock-up.
I'm not sure that this particular policy is workable (I think Cameron's saying that if, 2.5 years into the 5y spouse visa you're english is still totally non-existent, then you won't be granted the rest) - as you say, you can't split up families like this under the ECHR/HRA. I think it's just the usual bullshit of concocting a meaningless policy that actually doesn't apply to hardly anyone in order to put out a message in the press. But as a principle of English skills being part of a Leave to Remain decision, I'm in favour (and that's already in place I believe).
1
1
In reply to summo:
Your post doesn't relate to what I said. I'm in favour of English skills as a criterion in LtR policy, I just think it has nothing to do with radical Islam.
Your post doesn't relate to what I said. I'm in favour of English skills as a criterion in LtR policy, I just think it has nothing to do with radical Islam.
1
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
No, I was pointing out that some nationalities, cultures and faiths are more open to integration than others. It might be different in UK, I can only really comment on my experience, where I am also an immigrant of sorts and attended language lessons for few months with people from the same countries that the UK is now receiving refugees. By far the least interested were north Africans and middle easterners. The keenest, after my good self, were probably indian folk, very driven.
No, I was pointing out that some nationalities, cultures and faiths are more open to integration than others. It might be different in UK, I can only really comment on my experience, where I am also an immigrant of sorts and attended language lessons for few months with people from the same countries that the UK is now receiving refugees. By far the least interested were north Africans and middle easterners. The keenest, after my good self, were probably indian folk, very driven.
Post edited at 21:07
1
In reply to summo:
And DO they actually seek out and deport defaulters ?( something I believe we are poor at)
> Also with residency here and EU migrant work force rules, you are supposed to declare your arrival within 3months to migration, but are only allowed to stay 6 months job seeking, unless you prove you have at least the means to fund yourself for 2 years.
And DO they actually seek out and deport defaulters ?( something I believe we are poor at)
1
In reply to summo:
Apologies for using this old chestnut too often perhaps, but the plural of anecdote is not evidence.
On my language/integration courses I didn't see any particular difference between different nationalities, let alone cultures or religions! Some PEOPLE were more into studying than others, but you get lazy people and motivated people of all flavours.
> I can only really comment on my experience,
Apologies for using this old chestnut too often perhaps, but the plural of anecdote is not evidence.
> where I am also an immigrant of sorts and attended language lessons for few months with people from the same countries that the UK is now receiving refugees. By far the least interested were north Africans and middle easterners. The keenest, after my good self, were probably indian folk, very driven.
On my language/integration courses I didn't see any particular difference between different nationalities, let alone cultures or religions! Some PEOPLE were more into studying than others, but you get lazy people and motivated people of all flavours.
1
In reply to Jim C:
No better than UK, but their money is stopped if they dont attend the lessons, of course sitting in class does not mean they will learn, unless they want to. If they don't speak Swedish very well then they can't be forced to take a job, so many don't want to improve.
> And DO they actually seek out and deport defaulters ?( something I believe we are poor at)
No better than UK, but their money is stopped if they dont attend the lessons, of course sitting in class does not mean they will learn, unless they want to. If they don't speak Swedish very well then they can't be forced to take a job, so many don't want to improve.
1
In reply to TobyA:
Of cause. Causation and correlation too. The city nearest us some 40km away where the lessons were, does have a migrant ghetto that is acknowledged at government level as most in need of change due to the problems, stoning police, fire crews etc. All coincidences of course.
Of cause. Causation and correlation too. The city nearest us some 40km away where the lessons were, does have a migrant ghetto that is acknowledged at government level as most in need of change due to the problems, stoning police, fire crews etc. All coincidences of course.
1
In reply to summo:
A lack of interest in education, fighting the authorities even when it's firemen, etc. I assume you have conveniently forgotten that we get plenty of that sort of thing in dirt poor, all white estates in the UK too?
> Of cause. Causation and correlation too. The city nearest us some 40km away where the lessons were, does have a migrant ghetto that is acknowledged at government level as most in need of change due to the problems, stoning police, fire crews etc. All coincidences of course.
A lack of interest in education, fighting the authorities even when it's firemen, etc. I assume you have conveniently forgotten that we get plenty of that sort of thing in dirt poor, all white estates in the UK too?
1
3
In reply to summo:
I thinkfrom my own experience that there is a specific issue with Muslim women in very traditional families where they have no responsibility or freedom outside the home. Where Cameron is being a complete dick is linking it to radicalisation, when there is no connection whatsoever. It's a cultural issue that's probably very difficult to change with policy intervention. If a woman's expectations of life are to cook and clean for her husband until she dies, then a few English classes are probably not going to change that.
> No, I was pointing out that some nationalities, cultures and faiths are more open to integration than others.
I thinkfrom my own experience that there is a specific issue with Muslim women in very traditional families where they have no responsibility or freedom outside the home. Where Cameron is being a complete dick is linking it to radicalisation, when there is no connection whatsoever. It's a cultural issue that's probably very difficult to change with policy intervention. If a woman's expectations of life are to cook and clean for her husband until she dies, then a few English classes are probably not going to change that.
1
2
In reply to seankenny:
Exactly, the predominantly white Manor estate in Sheffield springs to mind, it's where my dad's car was found, and barbed/razor wire is wrapped around the CCTV cameras on some of the local community buildings, general advice for anybody doing conservation work on one of the reserves there is not engage particularly if somebody is being 'funny'.
> A lack of interest in education, fighting the authorities even when it's firemen, etc. I assume you have conveniently forgotten that we get plenty of that sort of thing in dirt poor, all white estates in the UK too?
Exactly, the predominantly white Manor estate in Sheffield springs to mind, it's where my dad's car was found, and barbed/razor wire is wrapped around the CCTV cameras on some of the local community buildings, general advice for anybody doing conservation work on one of the reserves there is not engage particularly if somebody is being 'funny'.
Post edited at 14:06
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Though the lessons won't hurt, they could be 'part of the mix' in a positive change.
Though the lessons won't hurt, they could be 'part of the mix' in a positive change.
Post edited at 14:17
In reply to seankenny:
No not forgotten and in many UK cases , it is down to poor future prospects, lack of education etc.. so again learning the language, gaining skills and qualifications is only going to improve prospects in any country.
No not forgotten and in many UK cases , it is down to poor future prospects, lack of education etc.. so again learning the language, gaining skills and qualifications is only going to improve prospects in any country.
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Learning a language of your host country opens the door to education and potential employment, it simply can never be a bad thing, especially for women trapped as you describe.
Learning a language of your host country opens the door to education and potential employment, it simply can never be a bad thing, especially for women trapped as you describe.
1
1
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Your arguments are often quite intelligent but they would be improved by not using terminology like a complete dick.
Your arguments are often quite intelligent but they would be improved by not using terminology like a complete dick.
2
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...