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Hi all, anyone got any opinions on snow stakes for leader pro or belays? I have heard they are favoured by guys across the pond but have dubious holding power compared to a dead men. Are they worth carrying? Also are dead men worth carrying in general? Thanks all, apologies for a post that I'm sure comes across as a bit stupid!
In reply to ross_spours:
Hi Ross
I have never used them in the UK, only for fixing lines in Nepal where the neve was deep and bombproof, plus our Sherpa carried them!
In the UK I feel they would have little holding power due to variable snow conditions / depth. Plus they only do one thing and are a pain to carry.
Other folks carry deadmen in the UK but again I have only used them a few times and they take a bit of seating to get right. And again they only do one thing.
I prefer to carry gear which can be used for multiple jobs, so in snow I would either use an ice axe belay or a snow bollard.
I guess its personal preference in the end .
HTH Davey
Hi Ross
I have never used them in the UK, only for fixing lines in Nepal where the neve was deep and bombproof, plus our Sherpa carried them!
In the UK I feel they would have little holding power due to variable snow conditions / depth. Plus they only do one thing and are a pain to carry.
Other folks carry deadmen in the UK but again I have only used them a few times and they take a bit of seating to get right. And again they only do one thing.
I prefer to carry gear which can be used for multiple jobs, so in snow I would either use an ice axe belay or a snow bollard.
I guess its personal preference in the end .
HTH Davey
1
In reply to Mountain Llama:
I have vague memories of Glenmore Lodge doing a series of tests of snow anchors, including stakes & dead men which concluded that dead men were the 'most reliable' assuming they were correctly placed - anyone else remember this ? (possibly 1980s, maybe earlier)
I have vague memories of Glenmore Lodge doing a series of tests of snow anchors, including stakes & dead men which concluded that dead men were the 'most reliable' assuming they were correctly placed - anyone else remember this ? (possibly 1980s, maybe earlier)
In reply to Doug:
Is this what you remember - comparison for snow anchors?
http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Mag-29-Low...
Is this what you remember - comparison for snow anchors?
http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Mag-29-Low...
In reply to ross_spours:
They're for different snow than Deadmans. Deadmans work much better in softer snow and hold better in general, but a stake can be hammered into neve if needed, is more idiot proof and is usually quicker/easier than a good snow bollard.
I sometimes carry one if I climb with my AK57 as it fits nicely down the side in the compression straps. But a good axe belay will often suffice.
It also makes one hell of a tent peg in soft snow I have used it to peg my hooped bivi along with my axes.
They're for different snow than Deadmans. Deadmans work much better in softer snow and hold better in general, but a stake can be hammered into neve if needed, is more idiot proof and is usually quicker/easier than a good snow bollard.
I sometimes carry one if I climb with my AK57 as it fits nicely down the side in the compression straps. But a good axe belay will often suffice.
It also makes one hell of a tent peg in soft snow I have used it to peg my hooped bivi along with my axes.
In reply to Mountain Llama:
Similar, but that looks like a repeat/update of the work I was thinking of
Similar, but that looks like a repeat/update of the work I was thinking of
In reply to ross_spours:
I've used snow stakes in the Andes but would be unlikely to use them in the UK - snow type just very different. Deadmen are great IMHO in the UK - I take one out maybe 3 days out of 4 - depending on venue, intended route choice etc.
A well buried deadman can be used a runner on an unconsolidated snow slope right at the top of a route if you are digging through a cornice or climbing over an overhanging one and your last good belay or runner is, say, 20 or 30m below.
Andy
I've used snow stakes in the Andes but would be unlikely to use them in the UK - snow type just very different. Deadmen are great IMHO in the UK - I take one out maybe 3 days out of 4 - depending on venue, intended route choice etc.
A well buried deadman can be used a runner on an unconsolidated snow slope right at the top of a route if you are digging through a cornice or climbing over an overhanging one and your last good belay or runner is, say, 20 or 30m below.
Andy
1
In reply to ross_spours:
Everything you never wanted to know about snow stakes but were forced to find out:
http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/objects/ISSW_O-061.pdf
FWIW I have a MSR snow stake with a wire mid clip that I sometimes use in the Alps.
CB
Everything you never wanted to know about snow stakes but were forced to find out:
http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/objects/ISSW_O-061.pdf
FWIW I have a MSR snow stake with a wire mid clip that I sometimes use in the Alps.
CB
1
In reply to ross_spours:
Recently started carrying a deadman again after many years without. It gets rid of that wretched feeling of nothing worth belaying off within reach. Just stop when the rope runs out. I got fed up with telling a newly-arrived second that 'This belay is magnificent, and that's all you need to know.' It became a standing joke, almost as laughable as some of the belays.
One did save my life in 1979 - a solid 80 foot fall that a deadman prevented from becoming a 1000 footer. When we were very young......
Recently started carrying a deadman again after many years without. It gets rid of that wretched feeling of nothing worth belaying off within reach. Just stop when the rope runs out. I got fed up with telling a newly-arrived second that 'This belay is magnificent, and that's all you need to know.' It became a standing joke, almost as laughable as some of the belays.
One did save my life in 1979 - a solid 80 foot fall that a deadman prevented from becoming a 1000 footer. When we were very young......
3
In reply to ross_spours:
I used to carry a deadboy (think deadman but about on third the size) but that was purely to scare my partners with.
I used to carry a deadboy (think deadman but about on third the size) but that was purely to scare my partners with.
2
In reply to cb294:
Quick look through but no testing on buried stuff sacks or rucksacks ( full of snow/gear).
or frozen Mars Bars
> Everything you never wanted to know about snow stakes but were forced to find out:
> FWIW I have a MSR snow stake with a wire mid clip that I sometimes use in the Alps.
> CB
Quick look through but no testing on buried stuff sacks or rucksacks ( full of snow/gear).
or frozen Mars Bars
In reply to nniff:
Nothing worth belaying off on my stairs either. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
> Recently started carrying a deadman again after many years without. It gets rid of that wretched feeling of nothing worth belaying off within reach. Just stop when the rope runs out. I got fed up with telling a newly-arrived second that 'This belay is magnificent, and that's all you need to know.' It became a standing joke, almost as laughable as some of the belays.
Nothing worth belaying off on my stairs either. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
7
In reply to ianstevens:
Perhaps.
But a lot of folk who have survived ( or not ) 300 + metre slides may not agree with you.
I also have in laws found dead at the foot of stairs. Don't fall. Easier said than done.
> Nothing worth belaying off on my stairs either. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
Perhaps.
But a lot of folk who have survived ( or not ) 300 + metre slides may not agree with you.
I also have in laws found dead at the foot of stairs. Don't fall. Easier said than done.
3
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In reply to ross_spours:
My deadman has been an ornament in my winter box for about ...oooh.....30 years.
Its had quite a lot of trips out to various places to keep it happy, but has yet to do anything in the snow
My deadman has been an ornament in my winter box for about ...oooh.....30 years.
Its had quite a lot of trips out to various places to keep it happy, but has yet to do anything in the snow
1
In reply to Doug:
Personally I tend to avoid them, or if not go through or around them, rather than take on generally unstable overhanging snow. As I'm sure everyone else does.
> So those overhanging cornices I've seen in Scotland aren't steep ?
Personally I tend to avoid them, or if not go through or around them, rather than take on generally unstable overhanging snow. As I'm sure everyone else does.
In reply to ianstevens:
>. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
Who's talking about protecting a snow slope? I'm talking about belays, which makes your comment the biggest load of b******s I've heard in a long time.
Take, for example, any steep pitch that tops out onto snow.
However, as pointed out above as a runner below a cornice they have a good place, as indeed below any steepening that is devoid of anything useful as a runner.
My incident involved me falling the full height of a pitch to land in deep snow. What saved me was that my axe caught in a rope attached to a deadman at the top of the pitch at the same time as I hit the snow: it stopped me shooting off again and tearing off down the frozen neve below. I was knocked off by a falling climber who landed beside me. He tobogganed down the snowy pitch above, having made the simple mistake of sitting down on a snow ledge in waterproof trousers, and the slope being too steep and icy for him to stop. He then hit me and we took to the air.
We were both severely winded and I had a somewhat wrenched shoulder. We dusted ourselves off and elected to walk round to the top.
>. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
Who's talking about protecting a snow slope? I'm talking about belays, which makes your comment the biggest load of b******s I've heard in a long time.
Take, for example, any steep pitch that tops out onto snow.
However, as pointed out above as a runner below a cornice they have a good place, as indeed below any steepening that is devoid of anything useful as a runner.
My incident involved me falling the full height of a pitch to land in deep snow. What saved me was that my axe caught in a rope attached to a deadman at the top of the pitch at the same time as I hit the snow: it stopped me shooting off again and tearing off down the frozen neve below. I was knocked off by a falling climber who landed beside me. He tobogganed down the snowy pitch above, having made the simple mistake of sitting down on a snow ledge in waterproof trousers, and the slope being too steep and icy for him to stop. He then hit me and we took to the air.
We were both severely winded and I had a somewhat wrenched shoulder. We dusted ourselves off and elected to walk round to the top.
4
In reply to nniff:
The OP is talking about protecting a snow slope, specifically asking about leader pro in addition to belays. I was making the point that most snow slopes are easy enough in the UK to solo, hence there is no need for either. If we're talking about belays, then you can use your axes, and have no need to cart excess shite up a route with you. That also includes steep pitches that top out onto snow. All of the routes I've done that involve steep snow are gullies, with rock walls and associated gear - again, no need for snow anchors.
Whilst I'm glad to hear that you weren't severely injured, your incident was easily avoidable (admittedly not on your part), simply by the other climber not attempting to sit down on a snow slope.
> >. Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
> Who's talking about protecting a snow slope? I'm talking about belays, which makes your comment the biggest load of b******s I've heard in a long time.
> Take, for example, any steep pitch that tops out onto snow.
> However, as pointed out above as a runner below a cornice they have a good place, as indeed below any steepening that is devoid of anything useful as a runner.
> My incident involved me falling the full height of a pitch to land in deep snow. What saved me was that my axe caught in a rope attached to a deadman at the top of the pitch at the same time as I hit the snow: it stopped me shooting off again and tearing off down the frozen neve below. I was knocked off by a falling climber who landed beside me. He tobogganed down the snowy pitch above, having made the simple mistake of sitting down on a snow ledge in waterproof trousers, and the slope being too steep and icy for him to stop. He then hit me and we took to the air.
> We were both severely winded and I had a somewhat wrenched shoulder. We dusted ourselves off and elected to walk round to the top.
The OP is talking about protecting a snow slope, specifically asking about leader pro in addition to belays. I was making the point that most snow slopes are easy enough in the UK to solo, hence there is no need for either. If we're talking about belays, then you can use your axes, and have no need to cart excess shite up a route with you. That also includes steep pitches that top out onto snow. All of the routes I've done that involve steep snow are gullies, with rock walls and associated gear - again, no need for snow anchors.
Whilst I'm glad to hear that you weren't severely injured, your incident was easily avoidable (admittedly not on your part), simply by the other climber not attempting to sit down on a snow slope.
4
In reply to ianstevens:
Most gullies with cornices which are avoidable by climbing around still normally involve a steep to almost vertical snow. Often there is no place to fix anything in rock as its all buried.
You either risk it and hope your second some way below you somehow can stop your big fall - if you come off. Or, place a deadman as a runner!
Most gullies with cornices which are avoidable by climbing around still normally involve a steep to almost vertical snow. Often there is no place to fix anything in rock as its all buried.
You either risk it and hope your second some way below you somehow can stop your big fall - if you come off. Or, place a deadman as a runner!
Post edited at 19:44
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In reply to ross_spours:
Also handy if your gonna be doing all the leading and don't want to swap axes with your partner if yours are buried.
Also handy if your gonna be doing all the leading and don't want to swap axes with your partner if yours are buried.
1
In reply to Dave Perry:
I've never seen any of this vertical snow - steep yes, but not vertical. Steep snow is still very difficult to fall off!
> Most gullies with cornices which are avoidable by climbing around still normally involve a steep to almost vertical snow. Often there is no place to fix anything in rock as its all buried.
> You either risk it and hope your second some way below you somehow can stop your big fall - if you come off. Or, place a deadman as a runner!
I've never seen any of this vertical snow - steep yes, but not vertical. Steep snow is still very difficult to fall off!
8
In reply to ianstevens:
It feels vertical then !! Next time I'll take something to improve my angle estimates!
It feels vertical then !! Next time I'll take something to improve my angle estimates!
In reply to ianstevens:
Disagree - cornices can be sometimes unavoidable, overhanging and quite easy to fall off. If the deadman is going to work in average snow conditions as a runner is another matter and the better the snow the more likely it will hold but the less likely you'll need it!
Disagree - cornices can be sometimes unavoidable, overhanging and quite easy to fall off. If the deadman is going to work in average snow conditions as a runner is another matter and the better the snow the more likely it will hold but the less likely you'll need it!
Post edited at 21:09
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Would you agree CurlyS that a well-made bucket seat and body belay would be the most effective stance for protecting your leader through a cornice?
Would you agree CurlyS that a well-made bucket seat and body belay would be the most effective stance for protecting your leader through a cornice?
In reply to ianstevens:
>Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
But that's not really the point as suggested above. You place the deadman in snow but it's protecting what's above or below which might be anything, including a collapsing cornice.
A long time ago I was on Hadrian's Wall. Carried a deadman all the way up without using it. Dead weight I thought. But there was nothing else to belay to after I topped out with little rope to spare, so I placed the deadman in some deepish, reasonably consolidated snow. Wondered if it was worth the effort as the top pitch hadn't been too difficult and my partner was very competent - more so than me. I wouldn't have bothered making a bollard even if it had been possible.
A few metres up the pitch my partner lost a crampon. He needed a tight rope from then on. I was VERY grateful I was anchored to the deadman!
Martin
>Any snow in the UK isn't really steep enough to require protecting IMO.
But that's not really the point as suggested above. You place the deadman in snow but it's protecting what's above or below which might be anything, including a collapsing cornice.
A long time ago I was on Hadrian's Wall. Carried a deadman all the way up without using it. Dead weight I thought. But there was nothing else to belay to after I topped out with little rope to spare, so I placed the deadman in some deepish, reasonably consolidated snow. Wondered if it was worth the effort as the top pitch hadn't been too difficult and my partner was very competent - more so than me. I wouldn't have bothered making a bollard even if it had been possible.
A few metres up the pitch my partner lost a crampon. He needed a tight rope from then on. I was VERY grateful I was anchored to the deadman!
Martin
1
In reply to Andy Cloquet:
Not CS, but I disagree with the first part. A bucket seat is usually enough to bring up a second, but if I have the choice, I definitely prefer securing myself with a good snow anchor (buried axe or snow stake) when my partner is playing cornice yenga and no rock anchors are available. I do agree that body belaying to make the catch softer is probably best.
CB
Not CS, but I disagree with the first part. A bucket seat is usually enough to bring up a second, but if I have the choice, I definitely prefer securing myself with a good snow anchor (buried axe or snow stake) when my partner is playing cornice yenga and no rock anchors are available. I do agree that body belaying to make the catch softer is probably best.
CB
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