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Jumar advice (following multi-pitch rock climbs)

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 jsmcfarland 20 Jan 2016
Hi UKC!

Does anyone have any advice around the practicalities of a novice level climber following me up harder multi-pitch trad with jumars?

I have a family member who likes to get outdoors with me and belay on trad routes. Only thing is we are obviously limited to single-pitch routes where I can abseil down to clean the route. He would like to get onto some multi-pitch climbs with me this spring/summer. The few times he has climbed he has managed S or HS, and I'm around E2/3ish

I thought buying a 50-60m static line (so trad ropes don't get trashed) and tying that off to the anchor at the end of each pitch would let him jumar up after me, cleaning my gear. The odd directional would keep the rope in to the wall if there were slight overhangs etc. If there was a bit of traversing he could use the trad ropes to tension across, though climbs with big traverses seem to be out of the question.

Any general advice or thoughts would be appreciated, as well as pointers to a good set of jumars if it all sounds reasonable. I have absolutely zero experience with this kind of thing, hence the post. Cheers
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 Mike Nolan 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Why not just take him up some routes he can actually climb? Seconding a Severe will be a lot easier and much more enjoyable than making him jumar up an E2!
 SteveSBlake 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

I think there would be less effort involved in improving his climbing standard so he could follow you conventionally!

Steve
 tony 20 Jan 2016
In reply to SteveSBlake:

> I think there would be less effort involved in improving his climbing standard so he could follow you conventionally!

And a great deal more satisfaction for both!
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 Kirill 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

I have done this sort of thing. We didn't bring any extra rope, just 2 half ropes. I would lead normally cliping gear alternatively to both ropes then at the belay I would fix the red rope so my partner could jumar and belay with the blue normally, occasionally very tight to give extra assistance. Worked pretty well.
 sparkass 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

I think your idea seems fine. Jumaring up hard routes will take your pal places they would otherwise not be and this can be a really cool experience. I tend to agree with the others that it's somewhat boring if you're not climbing but if you're psyched then right on.

Look online or buy a book about big walls, caving or similar to get the numbers on the rope work. The techniques are not difficult but can be potentially pretty dangerous if not done correctly.

I like the Petzl ascenders.

Duncan
 andrewmc 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Sounds rubbish for the person concerned :P

Basically you just want someone to belay you on routes they will get nothing out of...

If they are a novice climber, how are they going to get themselves out of trouble if they get tired jumaring etc? (sounds silly but cavers are much better at this than climbers and getting exhausted is a common issue with SRT ascents). Setting up an ascent line is a skill in itself (in European caving the rope never ever rubs on the rock normally). Lowering-out where the route turns a big corner (as in big walling) can involve leaving sacrificial gear behind. There is a need to backtie so that if an ascender pops while you have taken the other one off you don't hit the ground, which probably works better up a big wall with some fall space than on the average British trad crag, ledges included...

So basically you need to learn a whole load of things to set this up and your second needs to learn a whole load of things to do it and you need to learn a whole load of things to deal with anything that goes wrong! Plus if I was doing this I would want a set of ascenders for myself in case I had to descend/reclimb the static rope.

What might be a lot more useful, if you don't already know how to do it, would be to learn how to assist/haul a stuck second so they could push their grade a bit more safely.
 deacondeacon 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Climb bold routes. They tend to have a lower technical grade in relation to the adjectival grade, so will be easier to follow.

Getting them to jumar behind you will be a proper ball ache, you'll be on dynamic rope (also more than likely on halves) and rarely on anything steep enough all the way to be comfortable.
Until you get slick with it, it'll take ages too.
Either drop your grade, stick to single pitch or climb with someone else imo.
 LastBoyScout 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

My advice is - don't bother

Had some experience of this when a mate of mine fell off seconding me and ended up swinging onto a much harder route with no way of swinging back (unavoidable with available gear and rope stretch). Fortunately, he had mini-ascenders with him, but it took an absolute age for him to sort himself out and make his way up to me and he was absolutely done in when he arrived.

Suggest, as others have, that you drop your grade a bit until they can follow you - dragging a barely HS climber up an E2 in this way on dynamic ropes is a pointless waste of both of your time, I think.
 Mr. Lee 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

> I have a family member who likes to get outdoors with me and belay on trad routes.

Does he not want to actually climb?? A day spent jumaring does not sound fun. Maybe he'll enjoy the experience first time around. There after it'll be the same experience everytime. He'll quickly get bored. Just do the decent thing and climb things that he can second.
 dagibbs 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Probably the best answer is to not do it. Jumaring is work, but generally boring.

Better choices: lead stuff he can climb. Either exposed/risky, but without moves that are technically difficult. Or even climbs where there are the occasional difficult section, but provide aid options past the difficult bits. Rope tension from above, or gear to pull on to make it past the occasional crux can provide an interesting and challenging climb for both the leader and follower.
 jkarran 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Obviously you could do this but it'll be far more annoying than you're imagining. Better you knock your grade back a bit and do some routes your mate can follow and enjoy, they'll rapidly improve and if you don't make a fuss over the grades you'll be leading them up the E's you aspire to in no time so long as they can rest occasionally or pull on the odd sling. I've followed friends up plenty of stuff I couldn't hope to lead or second cleanly with the odd rest or aid point. I would flat out reuse to follow on jumars especially as many of those routes had big traverses and awkward 3d bits.

jk
 Rob Exile Ward 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

IIRC many, many years ago Pete Crew and Al Harris used to run climbing courses that consisted of them leading the hardest routes they could then dragging the 'delegates' behind them.

I had similar experiences when I was a kid with Chris Fitzhugh and Tony Booth - they assumed that if I was keen to climb then I was happy to accept a bit of a tug on the crux - which I was, climbing most of the rest was exhilarating and fun.

Jumaring, on the other hand, particularly on trad routes, is totally rubbish and frightening. Better just give them a tight rope. There's very few routes where with a bit of judicious protection and double ropes a beginner couldn't be taken up relatively safely.
 Babika 20 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

I tend to agree with everything already said. I've jumarred lots in Yosemite but its pretty boring in itself and seems a bit of an odd way to go about things.

Of course you could just advertise on UKC for an E2/E3 partner - or join a Club - and then spend your time enjoying Classic Rock with your mate?
OP jsmcfarland 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Thanks to the people that actually read my post instead of spouting a lot of judge-y bull. This was actually my uncle's idea so i am not dragging some poor person up routes behind me because I'm a selfish git. He isn't much interested in climbing but wanted to support me in trying some harder stuff. Much like you would take your nephew to football or whatever. I thought i would post here for thoughts as i had a few misgivings about it all but nothing I've read makes me think it's impossible. Just need a static rope and to find a few (admittedly rare) straight up climbs. Jumars would let him follow me up climbs more around his level if he had trouble with a crux anyway. I'll take a look at a big walling book and give it a go in the summer. A set of Jumars don't look too expensive so if it turns out to be too fiddly it's not the end of the world. Cheers ukc :p
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 Rob Exile Ward 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

It's always odd when people ask for advice and then, because the advice isn't what they wanted to hear, they throw a hissy fit.

For the avoidance of doubt: jumaring is rubbish, and particularly difficult and inappropriate on UK trad. This is a rubbish idea - if it wasn't, people would have been doing it years ago (yeah, we had jumars in the '70s.) Just give us notice when you are going so we can avoid the inevitable tears, tantrums and delays.
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 Climber_Bill 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

It's great your uncle is keen to support you in trying harder routes and sounds quite "up for it" and for having a bit of an adventure.

However, you would get more out of it yourself in the long term if you were to find regular trad climbing partners. It will be a completely unequal partnership, with your uncle always relying on you in terms of safety and skills. That's fine up to a point. But a lot of the trad climbing experience is about being with a like minded partner who can share the mental, technical and physical aspect of a route / adventure and you both learn off one another. Also, your uncle will never really know what is going through your head when you are running it out on crap gear and totally f***ing pumped out of your mind and a bit(!) scared. A proper climbing partner will know what you are going through and be able to shout up useful encouragement like "Hurry up you wa****, the pub will be closed soon" or "What the f*** are you messing around at, get up there" and such like.

At the top as you coil the ropes and sort the gear and chat excitedly about the route, the gear, the moves, a shared adventure / epic is just one of the greatest experiences in climbing.

Join a club if you are finding it hard to find partners. It will be worth it.

TJB.
 philhilo 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland: After learning to big wall for a Yosemite trip last spring, cleaning on second whilst jumaring is a skill on its own and takes time to learn. It's not physically hard most of the time when you do it right but it takes lots of practice to get good enough to be able to strip a typical British trad route, oh and its dangerous if you get it wrong. On top of that it does require a good deal of climbing skills if you are not going to leave lots of gear in-situ. A super comfy harness is another requirement unless you want dead legs and nerve damage. Dead straight slabs and corners yes, but as soon as you deviate from that then you need skills. You also need to place gear differently on the lead - or sometimes not at all to make it feasible to clean without abandoning kit and/or taking forever.
Yes it could be done but all in all not worth the huge effort involved.
Hope you get something sorted.

 Fredt 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:
To add to other replies, it is a skill in its own right. One of the most surprising thing I learned big walling in Yosemite, when seconding in jumars, is that on occasions it is easier to aid the pieces like the leader did, especially on overhangs and traverses. Also on traverses, you need to be able to lower out, a very complex manoeuvre, if you want to avoid swinging.
Post edited at 12:24
 Wsdconst 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

I think you should have a little test session on a smaller route, somewhere you're familiar with and can keep your uncle in view at all times so you can advise him. Keep him on belay at all times just incase too. It's quite hard to jumper up stuff so he needs to be not only fit but strong too and have really good endurance. Good luck
 David Coley 21 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Hi,
Sounds like you are going to have some fun.
Doing what you suggest isn’t that uncommon (except in the UK). For example seconding a hard route when wearing a heavy sack. If you read Alex Honnold’s biography you will see that many of the speed records of harder routes on El Cap that can’t be simul-climbed were done in this way. If you watch some footage of Beth Rodden jugging on The Nose you will see just how fast it can be.

The key is whether he can jug. If jugging is hard work, you are doing it wrong. This takes time to learn and is best done at a climbing wall.

A few pointers.
I wouldn’t jug a separate static. It will be difficult to place this so he can reach all the gear. And if it moves across the wall it could bring rocks down on him. Just climb on a single with long extenders.

Set the belay with a cordelette, so you can easily tie the rope off for him to jug.

Unless the route is continuously difficult, consider using other methods such as gorilla aiding over the crux and climbing the rest on a tight rope.

He needs to tie back up knots.

Enjoy.
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 Kirill 22 Jan 2016
In reply to David Coley:

> He needs to tie back up knots.

I am not sure that this is a good advice. Knots may get stuck when they pull the rope. I still think it's better to use the second rope to belay him while he's jumaring. They just need to make sure they've agreed in advance which rope is which.
 andrewmc 22 Jan 2016
In reply to Kirill:

The knots will be attached to the climber, so they won't get stuck Loops of slack could get stuck I guess but should be a) immediately apparent when this happens and b) normally easy to fix.

Belaying might also be a good idea though. But once again I would make sure you know how to haul, then you can worry less about him failing to do a route...
 David Coley 22 Jan 2016
In reply to Kirill:

Hi,
there will be no knots when they pull the rope up. The knot is at the climber's waist. tie new knot, untie old one.

But one could belay on another rope. However there is the need to be sure that if this was every tested, it wouldn't pull any blocks off. The leader would be best to use a reverso in guide mode, as he/she will otherwise be wasting time.
 galpinos 22 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

Get your Uncle to take you to the footy and find some friends to climb with?

After one route he might be less keen to do it repeatedly and there a fair skill set to acquire before he would be safe doing it. It's not quite a simple as jugging up the line whilst you bask in the sun thinking about the amazing pitch you've just led, waiting for the champers and canapes to arrive that are in the sac on your poor uncles back.
 overdrawnboy 22 Jan 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:
> (In reply to jsmcfarland)
>
so if it turns out to be too fiddly it's not the end of the world. Cheers ukc :p

It easily could be for someone with no climbing experience in potentially serious situations.
 David Coley 22 Jan 2016
In reply to galpinos:

> It's not quite a simple as jugging up the line whilst you bask in the sun thinking about the amazing pitch you've just led, waiting for the champers and canapes to arrive that are in the sac on your poor uncles back.

But it does give you time to get the canapés out of your sack and get the jet boil running so tea is ready by the time he arrives. (I have actually done this on Coronation St. in a three. Great winter time fun.)

In reply to jsmcfarland:

Dunno what everyone's fussing about - how many multipitches have cruxy headwalls or impossible starts? Instead of getting totally pumped in 30 seconds flailing about on second (who hasn't been there) if he possibly picked up some alpine aiders and got really efficient at jugging I don't see why this couldn't be a great partnership. As others have said this is just big wall style climbing, no reason why you can't apply it here. If you both get super smooth at your systems it might be a partnership that gets you to some crazy places! You could trail a static but I would just use a cheap fat dynamic and avoid climbing hugely wandering routes.
 Rob Exile Ward 22 Jan 2016
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Yeah, whatever.
Post edited at 21:44
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