UKC

Removing road markings?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 The Lemming 03 Feb 2016

Seems like Highway chiefs are thinking about removing white lines to make roads more safe.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/white-lines-could-be-removed-from-britains-roads-...

I use those white lines to tell me when there are obstacles and hazards ahead of me. I know that when the small spaced out white lines become lengthened and closer together that I am coming up to a hazard such as bends with reduced visibility ahead.

And solid white lines stop most idiots drifting onto my side of the road going round corners with little visibility ahead..

But to remove white lines completely, is this a good idea?
Post edited at 16:50
4
 RyanOsborne 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Do you drive more slowly and carefully when there is no central line?

Taking away the driver's sense of space can be quite a good way of slowing traffic. Imagine a dual carriageway with a wide single lane in each direction, and each direction is separated by a physical barrier. The tendency is to go much faster as you have more of a sense of that space.
3
 Scarab9 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

oh dear. sounds dangerous to me.

I get it. If you're driving fast (which I, as a motorbike rider, never ever do obviously) things like white lines and cats eyes and anything else can allow you to keep your speed up and let you know what's coming, so remove them and most people will slow down.

sure.

But I would have thought the worst offenders would just keep it up and make more mistakes, or pay for brighter bulbs and keep their headlights on high beam when not appropriate.

Plus in bad weather even going slowly you can be thankful for every hint you get.

Bad idea I'm thinking.
1
 ByEek 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Scarab9:

I sort of agree with you, especially in wet dark conditions, but the evidence would seem to disagree with us

"Now, a pilot scheme for the removal of lines in north Norfolk, Wiltshire and Derby has been proposed - after tests previously proved successful on the A22, A23 and A100 in London."

I think it is one of those where we follow our emotions in thinking we know best.
 Greasy Prusiks 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

What a strange idea! If they really want to slow cars down the only real option is the compulsory fitting of oval wheels to all vehicles.
 The New NickB 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Can't say I fancy putting them on my car!

http://www.ovalconcepts.com/aero/wheels
 gethin_allen 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

I thought this was going to be a moan about how white lines are removed by burning them off and leaving big lines of damaged tarmac that then degrade to massive long pot holes.

I wonder how removing central white lines will affect insurance claims for head on crashes. Who was in who's lane?
 Ridge 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Scarab9:

> But I would have thought the worst offenders would just keep it up and make more mistakes, or pay for brighter bulbs and keep their headlights on high beam when not appropriate.

Agree completely. There's a significant number of drivers who need xenon bulbs on main beam to traverse roads with cats eyes and streetlights, they'll need to upgrade to searchlights.

> Plus in bad weather even going slowly you can be thankful for every hint you get.

Exactly. I assume they'll use the money they save on centre lines to improve markings at the edge of the road? Nope, thought not

> Bad idea I'm thinking.

Seems akin to removing safety guards from machinery so people take more care to avoid severing their hands. Will probably work well, right up to the point where there's a horrific accident.
 Timmd 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Ridge:
The 'shared space' concept can work in some places, where pedestrians and car drivers and cyclists enter areas where there's no marking out of who should go where, and it has reduced accidents, but at the same time partially sighted people can find it a nightmare.

There seems to be a thing in (many) road users which is along the lines of if people are in their 'spot' as it were and not doing anything wrong, then if something happens it isn't their fault, so they buzz along in that frame of mind, where as when the clear boundaries are removed, people have to be more alert and careful and things turn out to be safer, in most ways at least, if not for all groups such as partially sighted people.

The concept in the OP might be similarly mixed?
Post edited at 19:27
 Ridge 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Timmd:

I understand the concept, but it can erode the safety of more vulnerable road users. Removing the separator between lanes may well reduce average speed and hence minor accidents, but may result in a far more significant collision due to disorientation in poor visibility.
 EwanR 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

It's a good idea and works well. An improvement is to have no central white line but lines for "bike lanes" on each side as can be seen here:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.1649757,6.0121301,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!...

The human mind seems to obey lines and having only the lines at the side means cars give bikes much more space and have to drive slower so as to be able to judge the position of oncoming vehicles.

In the UK there are no central lines on roads narrower than 5.5m and this doesn't seem to cause a problem other than making cars slow down when there is oncoming traffic.



 Trangia 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

> What a strange idea! If they really want to slow cars down the only real option is the compulsory fitting of oval wheels to all vehicles.

or remove all drivers' seat belts and fix a bayonet in the centre of the steering wheel pointed towards the driver's chest. I bet that would make most of us low down and drive with extreme caution.........
1
KevinD 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> The 'shared space' concept can work in some places, where pedestrians and car drivers and cyclists enter areas where there's no marking out of who should go where, and it has reduced accidents

From what i recall the evidence for it is somewhat mixed.
It isnt helped by there being no common definition of shared spaces so it can cover a multitude of sins. If you turn a deadend into shared space it is likely to work ok, turn a main road though and it won.t
To take the reduced accidents. There are two ways of achieving that. One is making it safer the other is scare the shit out of people so they dont dare venture near it.
 Timmd 03 Feb 2016
In reply to KevinD:
> To take the reduced accidents. There are two ways of achieving that. One is making it safer the other is scare the shit out of people so they dont dare venture near it.

From what I've heard, I gather that it isn't quite that polarised, in the right circumstances numbers who access the space aren't reduced and accidents are.
Post edited at 19:56
KevinD 03 Feb 2016
In reply to EwanR:

> It's a good idea and works well. An improvement is to have no central white line but lines for "bike lanes" on each side as can be seen here:

Depends how busy it is. This is a not bad column on a UK attempt.
http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2016/01/bez-channeling-the-flow/
 Trangia 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Timmd:

The concept of the steering wheel bayonet was first muted to me by a Road Traffic Policeman who had attended too many road traffic fatalities. A bayonet would certainly concentrate the mind particularly the 1907 British Army pattern one which was 17" long.......But you are right, the steering column would impale you just as efficiently, it was just not so obvious.
 Brass Nipples 03 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

It's a fantastic idea, great news.
KevinD 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> From what I've heard, I gather that it isn't quite that polarised, in the right circumstances numbers who access the space aren't reduced and accidents are.

The problem is the evidence is bloody sketchy. People cheerlead shared spaces but the decent studies on how they work and the limitations are conspicuous in their absence. We get the simple accident reduced but no figures on change in numbers or indeed type of accident eg are the vulnerable at greater risk now.
They may have, in some areas, reduced accidents as well as increased access but thats far from a given. From what I recall the ones where it worked was where vehicle flow is very low and pedestrian/cyclists vastly outnumber them.
A fun comparison is look at the artists impressions of shared spaces with lots of pedestrians interacting with cars. Then look at photos of the real thing.
 Timmd 03 Feb 2016
In reply to Trangia:
> The concept of the steering wheel bayonet was first muted to me by a Road Traffic Policeman who had attended too many road traffic fatalities. A bayonet would certainly concentrate the mind particularly the 1907 British Army pattern one which was 17" long.......But you are right, the steering column would impale you just as efficiently, it was just not so obvious.

I felt like I was being pedantic so I deleted it.

Having an engineering relative, he often seems to be literal about things like the bayonet on the steering wheel whatsit, 'It never made any difference when steering columns didn't collapse...'

One reason to not drive older cars as your daily car I guess, since modern ones are safer.
Post edited at 22:05
 Scarab9 04 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Additional thought, how have the studies showing decreased speed been done?

Because if it's sticking two cables across the road like they do to gather info in most places I'm not convinced as people seeing them tend to slow down to work out if they're about to somehow be caught anyway
 balmybaldwin 04 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Just the other day I was driving on a unlit b road thats reasonable to drive around 40 on in the day. there are now sections where they've not replaced catseyes after a re surface it has lines but they are sparse and its a pretty dirty road so they dont show up so well. At night it has made a road which was previously a dark slow winding drive (especially in the rain) into a terrifying nightmare with no reference points as you get sped past by locals who know the road like the back of their hand... (I go slow, even knowing it reasonably well if not a daily route).

Yes it's slowed me down but often it frightens me the speed drivers coming towards me are travelling being partially dazled and not being able to tell where the side or middle of the road is.
 Timmd 04 Feb 2016
In reply to Ridge:
> I understand the concept, but it can erode the safety of more vulnerable road users. Removing the separator between lanes may well reduce average speed and hence minor accidents, but may result in a far more significant collision due to disorientation in poor visibility.

Yes, it seems like it could be a better idea(than for in the OP) for in squares and at cross roads, with provision for partially sighted people and things added too, where speeds are usually a little bit lower anyway.
Post edited at 00:50
 Dauphin 04 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

I drive down the middle of the road across the white line especially in the sticks, better visibility, more options for evasive manoeuvres, better handling of the vehicle. Im a careful and considerate driver. Maybe teaching people how to drive on various roads and light and weather conditions rather than passing a test might be the way forward? Alternatively tear up all the traffic calming bollocks they've spent billions on nationally in the last 15 years, little evidence for its implimentation, got to keep the money flowing upstairs.

D
1
 Phil1919 04 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Great news about the number of cyclists in London yesterday. Cycling is the future.
 Jim Fraser 05 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Roads have to be a certain width before there is a centre-line. Lack of a centre-line is usually a hazard signal in its own right.

Most trucks in the UK are now 2.55 or 2.6m wide, though 7.5t are maybe about 2.4m. When most were 2.5m a centre-line, along with the kerb or edge-line, could be used by the driver to help him place the vehicle in the best position on the road. With the wider vehicles it has already gone from unsatisfactory and difficult to stupid and dangerous. The UK has really rubbish roads that are barely wide enough for these heavier vehicles.

Now if we take away white lines on a wide range of urban and lesser country roads, who do you think it will most affect? Boy racers who didn't care anyway? Or the number 27 bus and the truck carrying the milk and bread?

Totally bonkers. More ignorant government efforts to slow the economy.

Be careful who you vote for.
 Sharp 05 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:
It's depressing, anyone who spends a bit of time researching the variety ofcauses of road accidents in the uk will see that breaking the speed limit doesn't play as big of a role as we're led to believe. It's absolute madness, when will people in high office take a little bit of time to independently research things before blindly wanking out a new initiative which they think will make them look good.

The IAM licenced to skill report put driver error responsible for about 65% of accidents between 2005-2009, breaking the speed limit accounted for 13% and drink for 9%. Clearly taking away visual aids is going to do nothing to help prevent driver error from causing more accidents, if anything it will increase it. I cant remember but i think driving with excessive speed for the conditions accoutned for a little more than breaking the speed limits itself...I'd imagine this move would raise this figure as well by a) taking away the drivers ability to use the lines to determine what speed to enter a corner for example and b) taking away a visual aid making it harder for drivers to negotiate their road position if they do find themselves going too fast. Speed differentials have been shown to play a greater role than speed in accidents as well and as another poster mentioned this will increase this issue (people unfamiliar with the roads slowing down to 30-40mph and the locals still blasting along at 80mph.

Have a google about the negative effects of speed cameras and the correlation between accidents and speed camera placement and you'll soon start to wonder if the police even care about reducing accidents on the road or whether they see reducing speed, reducing alcohol consumption and speed cameras as good ends in themselves.

We have some of the safest roads, strictest legislation and safest cars in the world, there is no need for this initiative.
Post edited at 08:12
1
 Trangia 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Sharp:

>
> The IAM licenced to skill report put driver error responsible for about 65% of accidents between 2005-2009, breaking the speed limit accounted for 13% and drink for 9%.
>

This may be so, but isn't road safety as much about reducing the economic and human cost of accidents as reducing the number of accidents? It well known that speed is a major factor when considering serious injury and death in accidents. Removing white lines may not result in a significant reduction in driver error accidents, although my reading of the reports suggests otherwise to me in as much that removing the lines will make drivers concentrate harder, and logically that should result in fewer driver error accidents. More importantly, however, if the scheme reduces the average speeds this will result in a reduction in serious injuries and death even if the number of accidents isn't significantly reduced which surely is a major main aim of road safety?
 Jim Fraser 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Trangia:
> ... It well known that speed is a major factor when considering serious injury and death in accidents. ...


It is not well known.

It is thoroughly communicated by Government and the media but the evidence of police data about road traffic collisions collated by the DfT has never supported that idea.

In a recent DfT annual report, I recall that 56% of RTC involving death or serious injury were caused by two major groups of primary causes that fit well into the IAM's driver error category. 37% could be attributed to not paying attention and 19% to poor decisions about an approaching hazard. These figures had been growing by a few per cent each year and one could speculate that years of ignoring these telling statistics has led to the increase. In the same document, breaking the speed limit featured as a primary cause in only low single figure per cent of such RTC, as has been the case for several years. Other primary and secondary causes connected with speed also featured but were always a small part of the picture.


IF YOU DON'T LOOK WHERE YOU'RE GOING SOMEBODY IS GOING TO DIE.

Speed cameras cannot change that.
Post edited at 19:25
 Jim Fraser 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Sharp:

> It's depressing, anyone who spends a bit of time researching the variety of causes of road accidents in the uk will see that breaking the speed limit doesn't play as big of a role as we're led to believe.

Yes.


> We have some of the safest roads, strictest legislation and safest cars in the world, there is no need for this initiative.

Yes.

Why it is so safe in the UK and Ireland is a bit of a mystery. I am forced to believe that people on these islands people are just nice to each other. Strange but true!

Slowly dropping stats for road deaths can now be attributed almost entirely to the technical improvements in cars. The crach protection, airbags, braking improvements, tyre improvements and a long list of other technical factors make even the cheapest and most rudimentary cars more likely to be controllable in a crisis and less likely to hurt you. UN ECE and EU regulation combined with the work of motor manufacturers is responsible and the tinkering by the UK Government and its apparatchiks is largely a waste of time and money.



And why are Irelands numbers also so low when there seem to be so many road traffic issues they don't give a toss about? Someone from over there want to chip in?
 Trangia 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> It is not well known.

You missed my point which was not about cause but consequences.

Speed definitely plays a part in the severity of injuries or death. High speed accidents are more likely to result in death than low speed accidents.


 Si dH 06 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:
On low speed roads in cities and the shared space concept, I'm ambivalent about this. But on country B roads I think it's a disaster. I've no doubt it will make people go slower. But it will also result in more head on collisions because of people who struggle to accurately judge their cars' width (a lot of people) especially in the dark. As far as I'm concerned, doing 50 on a just-wide-enough B road with poor visibility (hedge rows etc) with a good white line is WAY safer than doing 40 on the same road with no white line.
I'm concerned that one of the proposed pilots is in Derby and am off to see if they've decided where...

Edit: a bit of research teels me the Derby trial has already happened so presumably it was somewhere urban that I didn't notice.
Post edited at 07:38
 Jim Fraser 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Trangia:

Let's go for 1000 UK road deaths per year and a 30% drop in serious injuries? Probably easily achievable by folk looking where they are going properly. Unfortunately, you can only achieve it if traffic police put down the speed guns and routinely engage with the public.
 marsbar 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

Im not from there but I am going to take a guess at lower population density chilled out attitudes to life and less of the kind of driving you see in big cities.

I'm in London at the moment and the way people behave its astonishing that anyone makes it through the day. Cyclists with no lights being kamikaze. Drivers driving at each other to get 1m ahead in a giant traffic jam and pedestrians who step out in front of you and glare like its your fault.
 RyanOsborne 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Sharp:

You're right about speed not generally being a factor in the majority of road traffic accidents, partly because people don't generally admit to police officers that they were going 5mph over the limit, and partly because when the police fill out the STATS 19 repot at an accident the general answer from the driver is 'I didn't see them'. So the attributable cause goes down as 'failure to look properly'.

The initiatives which are coming out of recent highway design evolution, of making the roads less over-engineered, and relying more on people taking it upon themselves to move around safely (shared surfaces, removal of pedestrian guard railing and this removal of white lining) are aimed not just at slowing people down, but also making them be more alert and pay more attention.

In reply to Jim Fraser: We have amongst the safest roads in the world (for how busy they are) because of two main things - UK highway engineers place a massive emphasis on skid resistance of road surfaces, and the fact that our driving test / driver training is generally excellent.
 Offwidth 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Trangia:

Prove this... a very large number of deaths occur in low speed zones. I agree with Jim that speed is overemphasized. Accidents from going too fast for the conditions still is often lack of attention. Overtaking A road deaths where the main in-car casualties occur arguably relates as much to poor decision making by the overtakers and the person creating a queue and people in queues deliberately blocking off spaces preventing risky overtakers from pulling back in (pretty much manslaugter in my view if someone dies as a result). Then we have all the commonly unmeasured distractions.. arguments, drug use, exhaustion, a lot of inappropriate phone use. Drink is measured and still remains a huge cause (and gets double counted if the drunk is speeding).

On the original point I've just come back from the Netherlands and one might expect carnage given the UK safety expectations of some but the roads are safer and huge numbers are on bikes.
 summo 06 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

If any government wanted to make the roads safer, you would limit cars to say 3000rpm and 80mph. Job done, but they do not have the balls. It would be good for emissions and legal journey times would remain unchanged.
 summo 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Let's go for 1000 UK road deaths per year and a 30% drop in serious injuries? Probably easily achievable by folk looking where they are going properly. Unfortunately, you can only achieve it if traffic police put down the speed guns and routinely engage with the public.

Or a harsher points system. 6points for any moving offence. 12points and still keeping your licence never happening.
 RyanOsborne 06 Feb 2016
In reply to summo:

Only a tiny proportion of accidents occur when cars are going over 80mph so I don't think it would make a difference.
 summo 06 Feb 2016
In reply to RyanOsborne:

> Only a tiny proportion of accidents occur when cars are going over 80mph so I don't think it would make a difference.

I agree, but its 10mph over the limit which allows for a brief speed to say get past something slower. How much money is spent on normal cars that can achieve 100,130, even 170 plus... Wasted, money and resources.
 stp 07 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

I'd have thought repairing all the potholes would have been a much greater priority. Also making tram tracks safer which currently cause a huge number of cyclist casualties.
 summo 07 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

I just drove back home today from Norway to Sweden after few days skiing, it has snowed for the past 48hrs and the last few cm of snow/ice is never cleared from many roads. So you can spend many weeks driving and never see centre lines, or the give way markings... Never saw a single head on crash today.

People just become accustomed to the roads they use and drive within the limits of the road conditions. The majority of the UK public have little idea what the variations in lines down the middle mean and if they do they ignore them anyway. Save the paint!!!
Jim C 08 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:
I WANT white lines on our local roundabout. I'm fed up with poor lane discipline when I am on the inside, and others start off in the outside lane then drift to the centre cutting across me, I need to sound my horn to alert them, as the lack of lines seems to effect their spacial awareness.

So stick with white lines I say.
Post edited at 00:26
 Jim Fraser 08 Feb 2016
In reply to summo:

No mention of Vision Zero???
 summo 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> No mention of Vision Zero???

a consultant's dreamt up name for common sense? Nothing within it is revolutionary, just best practice.



 Neil Williams 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

Plenty of roads are not wide enough for two cars.

If you're driving a vehicle where other vehicles may not fit past, you are responsible for driving it safely, e.g. for stopping when to proceed may cause an accident. Bullying your way through with a large vehicle is driving without due care and attention and/or dangerous driving.

(I nearly typed dangerous deriving there. That calculus is risky stuff! )
J1234 08 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

I think in slow speed areas such as towns and villages no or less white lines could be a good idea. In high speed areas such as A Roads and Motorways they are vital. It is the bits inbetween that need careful managing
 Jim Fraser 08 Feb 2016
In reply to summo:

> a consultant's dreamt up name for common sense? Nothing within it is revolutionary, just best practice.

No argument there!

(I have regularly told a story of a digger driver on Skye who successfully, and without any prompting from the local authority or elsewhere, implemented his own version of Vision Zero on a tortuous route on the island on the 1980s.)

In the UK, the key aspects of Vision Zero are largely ignored and only lip service is paid to such things. Good for conference mileage and free lunches but it never seems to translate into clear sight lines and saved lives.
In reply to Scarab9:

Why let research stand in the way of a good dose of personal opinion.
 Rob Naylor 09 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Don't think anyone's mentioned yet the experiments with "driverless" cars and lane-keeping software. Removing white lines will kill both these things stone-dead as the software currently relies on white lines as part of its decision loops!

This may or may not be a good thing, depending on your view of these innovations.
 RyanOsborne 09 Feb 2016
In reply to Scarab9:

Well then the before and after would both capture this reduction in speed? From personal experience the ATC (Automatic Traffic Counter) has much less of an effect in slowing drivers than doing a manual speed survey, as per the DMRB guidance, where someone stands at the side of the road with a speedgun. And you can capture a whole week's worth of data and average it.
 RyanOsborne 09 Feb 2016
In reply to Rob Naylor:

So how do they function on country roads with no white line? Surely they can detect both carriageway edges and keep to the left?
 jkarran 09 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> It is not well known.
> It is thoroughly communicated by Government and the media but the evidence of police data about road traffic collisions collated by the DfT has never supported that idea.

I think the two of you might be talking about different things, you seem to be talking about the risk factors for causing an accident and Trangia for being injured in an accident that is in progress. They're not quite the same thing. Inattention or inadequate car control will do you no further harm once it's triggered a crash but a mega joule of kinetic energy with nowhere good to go might.

FWIW I've spent much of my driving life on roads without center lines. I don't personally consider them much of an additional risk nor do they make me uneasy/extra cautious. In an increasingly urbanised world perhaps my mostly rural driving experience is slightly unusual.

It seems to me to be something worth trialing rigorously since these schemes often seem to come with unintended consequences.
jk
 Rob Naylor 09 Feb 2016
In reply to RyanOsborne:

> So how do they function on country roads with no white line? Surely they can detect both carriageway edges and keep to the left?

At present they don't function very well on country roads. There was a report in one of the weekend papers this weekend about some trials in the USA where the vehicle had done very well on interstates and other highways, but performed poorly on country roads. The response from the makers was along the lines: "at present, autonomous mode should only be engaged in good conditions and on well-marked roads".

I'm sure that the use of very high resolution 3D maps, LiDAR and other technology will improve things in the long run, but at present it seems that much of the software still relies on road markings.
 Jim Fraser 09 Feb 2016
In reply to jkarran:

If everyone is paying attention then there is considerably less chance of the kinetic energy being brought to bear on the human body.

In recent times, most of the reduction in UK road deaths has been due to improvements in vehicle engineering. Most of that relates to injury prevention when the accident happens. The scope for significant further progress in that area is reducing.

I would very much like us to turn our attention to preventing the accident in the first place. Cutting speed and reducing accidents is just not the same thing. Human beings are strange creatures and we need stimulation. For heaven's sake, this is a climbing website full of adrenalin junkies who need their risk fix! And it's not just us. The entire species needs their risk fix.

If it is soporifically boring then people consciously or otherwise introduce ways of heightening the risk. In the case of car drivers, this usually involves the Five Cs.
- CD players, radios and MP3 player
- Cellular phones
- Companions (ranging from conversation to copulation)
- Cup holders and their contents
- Catalepsy (ranging from trance to full on sleep)
Post edited at 19:25
In reply to The Lemming:

A road I use a lot was recently resurfaced. There was a period of a few weeks during which the road was re-opened without road lines. It is a pretty straight road with a few hills. It is a thirty limit road but 50 mph is quite common and most do 40 otherwise. I cycle and drive it.
It was notable during the period that the lines were missing that traffic appeared to slow down, particularly when larger vehicles were coming the other way. As a cyclist the number of cars giving me a close shave reduced.
I concluded that for a lot of drivers the lines act like 'tram lines' that are 'theirs' so they can do 60 mph happy in the 'knowledge' that the vehicle coming towards them is somehow segregated from them.
 Jim Fraser 10 Feb 2016
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I concluded that for a lot of drivers the lines act like 'tram lines' that are 'theirs' so they can do 60 mph happy in the 'knowledge' that the vehicle coming towards them is somehow segregated from them.

Yes. The lines assist them in making a correct judgement about road position. Good driving is about being in the correct road position, correct speed and correct gear for the prevailing conditions.

This road marking idea is in the same league as taking away gear shift patterns on gear knobs to slow people down because it's more difficult to select the correct gear or making it difficult to reach the brake to make it more difficult to select the correct speed.
1
 summo 10 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

Road position, a lot of time the best road position is in the middle or even on the other side, presuming nothing is coming of course. You get better visibility of the road etc.. living within the lines can just turn people's brains off.
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Yes. The lines assist them in making a correct judgement about road position. Good driving is about being in the correct road position, correct speed and correct gear for the prevailing conditions.

> This road marking idea is in the same league as taking away gear shift patterns on gear knobs to slow people down because it's more difficult to select the correct gear or making it difficult to reach the brake to make it more difficult to select the correct speed.

Really, my direct experience seems to indicate that it encourages speeding (because they are such good drivers) and not to give other traffic space because drivers dare not leave their side of the road.
 Jim Fraser 11 Feb 2016
In reply to summo:

> Road position, a lot of time the best road position is in the middle or even on the other side, presuming nothing is coming of course. You get better visibility of the road etc.. living within the lines can just turn people's brains off.

Single track road driver? 😌
 Brass Nipples 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Most don't make correct judgement about speed, they just drive at or above the limit for the road. The only judgement is, will I get done for speeding?
Post edited at 19:00
 Jim Fraser 11 Feb 2016
In reply to The Lemming:

Nevertheless, the DfT, IAM and Police all preach some version of Position-Speed-Gear. The lines are an aid to Position. Should we take away speedometers too?
Jim C 12 Feb 2016
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> Don't think anyone's mentioned yet the experiments with "driverless" cars and lane-keeping software. Removing white lines will kill both these things stone-dead as the software currently relies on white lines as part of its decision loops!

i would keep lines, but even without them, my guess it would be easy to fire some kind of marker into Tarmac and reprogramme driverless cars to follow those.

Maybe even if we do , or don't , get rid of lines we can utilise our retentive vision, and lay down markings spaced in such a way so that above certain speeds you begin to see words .

It could spell out 'Slow Down'
( or my preference 'Dickhead'
Post edited at 00:30
OP The Lemming 12 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Nevertheless, the DfT, IAM and Police all preach some version of Position-Speed-Gear. The lines are an aid to Position. Should we take away speedometers too?

The lines are indeed an aid to position.

And if I can not see far enough ahead of me then there is no way on this little green planet that I will cross it. Sadly some people believe that the lines are indeed an aid to position irrespective of how far ahead they can see. Many only look as far ahead as the bonnet of their car. If I can't see the horizon laid out before me then I am not going to make that manoeuvre.

Open roads and fast cars don't always mix well.
 summo 12 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:
> Nevertheless, the DfT, IAM and Police all preach some version of Position-Speed-Gear. The lines are an aid to Position. Should we take away speedometers too?

Not quite true, advance driving or roadcraft... Teach position as being the safest position for best vibility and safest driving. This can mean the wrong side or middle of the road, to see around long sweeping corners etc..

The main golden rule is not crossing solid lines, but if you are reading the road 100-200m ahead this would be obvious anyway.
Post edited at 06:36
 summo 12 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim C:

GPS tracked cars, if the car knows you aren't on a dual or motorway, it speed limits it to 60? It will happen eventually, but not for a few decades, we are control freaks still.
 Jim Fraser 12 Feb 2016
In reply to summo:

> Not quite true, advance driving or roadcraft... Teach position as being the safest position for best vibility and safest driving. This can mean the wrong side or middle of the road, to see around long sweeping corners etc..

> The main golden rule is not crossing solid lines, but if you are reading the road 100-200m ahead this would be obvious anyway.


"The lines are an AID to Position."


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...