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Just saw this via social media - http://warranty.bdel.com/CarabinerRecall/Landing It seems BD have found concerns in quite a few different models of krabs and slings. Probably worth checking the batch codes if you use BD kit.
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In reply to TobyA:
That is a big recall - shocking quality control really. I'll have to go and check some Neutrino's I bought fairly recently...
That is a big recall - shocking quality control really. I'll have to go and check some Neutrino's I bought fairly recently...
2
In reply to Dave:
It's so bad I thought it was a sophisticated spoof, particularly the issue with slings - But it's not!
Steve
It's so bad I thought it was a sophisticated spoof, particularly the issue with slings - But it's not!
Steve
1
In reply to TobyA:
Those slings are a disgrace. The way slings are getting thinner and tidier now it would be easy to assume there's nothing wrong with it.
Those slings are a disgrace. The way slings are getting thinner and tidier now it would be easy to assume there's nothing wrong with it.
2
In reply to SteveSBlake:
It's so bad I thought it was a sophisticated spoof, particularly the issue with slings - But it's not!
Here's the Recall Notice for the slings: http://warranty.bdel.com/RunnerRecall/Landing
Bloody hell!
It's so bad I thought it was a sophisticated spoof, particularly the issue with slings - But it's not!
Here's the Recall Notice for the slings: http://warranty.bdel.com/RunnerRecall/Landing
Bloody hell!
2
In reply to FactorXXX:
The sling issue is crazy. I had to read the recall twice to realise the issue - masking tape!
The sling issue is crazy. I had to read the recall twice to realise the issue - masking tape!
1
I only saw the krab recall and thought it was shocking how a riveted joint could be relesed in an unfinished condition, disgraceful
Then I saw the slings... Is it not a joke? I would hope that any slings I had like that would have failed just by racking them or picking them up and not even made it to the crag.
Post edited at 11:27
In reply to FactorXXX:
There was a fatality some years ago because of the way manufacturers supply tape on the reel, it's the same issue:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377602&
The link in the first post of that thread is no longer current, but the document can be found here:
http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/s/AnalysisHappyHour1.pdf
There was a fatality some years ago because of the way manufacturers supply tape on the reel, it's the same issue:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377602&
The link in the first post of that thread is no longer current, but the document can be found here:
http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/s/AnalysisHappyHour1.pdf
In reply to EddInaBox:
There was a fatality some years ago because of the way manufacturers supply tape on the reel, it's the same issue
Not really the same issue.
The latest recall is down to splices on sold sewn slings, which is entirely within the manufacturers control and is totally shocking in its incompetence.
There was a fatality some years ago because of the way manufacturers supply tape on the reel, it's the same issue
Not really the same issue.
The latest recall is down to splices on sold sewn slings, which is entirely within the manufacturers control and is totally shocking in its incompetence.
1
In reply to LakesWinter:
Agreed, more than a bit shocking. But why would anyone even buy a sling with masking tape on it in the first place ? Surely that issue would have been picked up in any retailers before hitting the counter? Interested to know how many of those bits of tape actually made it to the UK (if any)
And Last Boy Scout - Cliffhanger appears to be on every night
Agreed, more than a bit shocking. But why would anyone even buy a sling with masking tape on it in the first place ? Surely that issue would have been picked up in any retailers before hitting the counter? Interested to know how many of those bits of tape actually made it to the UK (if any)
And Last Boy Scout - Cliffhanger appears to be on every night
Post edited at 13:00
3
In reply to TobyA:
The Carabiner ones are just appalling QA, they have obviously missed a manufacturing step with the riveting.
The Carabiner ones are just appalling QA, they have obviously missed a manufacturing step with the riveting.
2
In reply to TobyA:
Mind boggling. Selling gear that will literally fall apart on use... Not everyone that climbs will use the internet, Black Diamond should be doing more surely?
Mind boggling. Selling gear that will literally fall apart on use... Not everyone that climbs will use the internet, Black Diamond should be doing more surely?
In reply to FactorXXX:
Have you read the recall notice, the sewn slings in question have incorporated two butt ends of tape that were 'joined' by masking tape. This is done to facilitate the reeling of the tape onto the drums sent to the manufacturer. 'Splicing' doesn't come into it.
Somehow or other taped butt ends have been incorporated into the sewn sling. It has happened before!
Steve
Have you read the recall notice, the sewn slings in question have incorporated two butt ends of tape that were 'joined' by masking tape. This is done to facilitate the reeling of the tape onto the drums sent to the manufacturer. 'Splicing' doesn't come into it.
Somehow or other taped butt ends have been incorporated into the sewn sling. It has happened before!
Steve
1
In reply to TobyA:
is this yet anothercase where manufacturing has been outsourced out of the country to somewhere they have less oversight over quality control? this is the worst recall I can remember, the faults are so basic and in so many of the products! nightmare - I'll have to check all my gear coz I cant remember what make and model everything is
is this yet anothercase where manufacturing has been outsourced out of the country to somewhere they have less oversight over quality control? this is the worst recall I can remember, the faults are so basic and in so many of the products! nightmare - I'll have to check all my gear coz I cant remember what make and model everything is
2
3
In reply to TobyA:
and of course another problem is that we can know if we've checked our own gear for affected models - but what about the people we climb with? this really is very very bad.
and of course another problem is that we can know if we've checked our own gear for affected models - but what about the people we climb with? this really is very very bad.
In reply to TobyA:
Thanks for posting this Toby.
The krab issues are bad but how on earth can they sell slings with supposed "joins" covered by masking tape?!
Thanks for posting this Toby.
The krab issues are bad but how on earth can they sell slings with supposed "joins" covered by masking tape?!
Post edited at 13:16
In reply to Skyfall:
It can happen because...
Climbers and retailers should be aware of the common industry
practice of spooling together several lengths of webbing joined by
small tape “splices” These are masking tape, electrical tape sellotape etc. The spool may have a warning label such as
“CAUTION CONTAINS SPLICES”......
I've seen it in shops.
Steve
It can happen because...
Climbers and retailers should be aware of the common industry
practice of spooling together several lengths of webbing joined by
small tape “splices” These are masking tape, electrical tape sellotape etc. The spool may have a warning label such as
“CAUTION CONTAINS SPLICES”......
I've seen it in shops.
Steve
In reply to FactorXXX:
The manufacturer of the tape supplied it on a reel or drum, when the run from the machine ended the reel was not full so they used masking tape to join the end of one run to the start of the next. It seems Black Diamond cannot guarantee that when they turned the tape into sewn extenders that their quality control caught all of the compromised extenders, the issue is that the tape used was sent out from the factory in a discontinuous length joined only by masking tape and it wasn't picked up, the same issue that was the major factor in the earlier fatality.
> Not really the same issue.
> The latest recall is down to splices on sold sewn slings, which is entirely within the manufacturers control and is totally shocking in its incompetence.
The manufacturer of the tape supplied it on a reel or drum, when the run from the machine ended the reel was not full so they used masking tape to join the end of one run to the start of the next. It seems Black Diamond cannot guarantee that when they turned the tape into sewn extenders that their quality control caught all of the compromised extenders, the issue is that the tape used was sent out from the factory in a discontinuous length joined only by masking tape and it wasn't picked up, the same issue that was the major factor in the earlier fatality.
2
In reply to TobyA:
While looking at that document it does seem like a pretty major issue, we still don't know how many, if any at all, affected products actually made it to the market and into people's racks.
It seems that we are asked to check every single component and anything that may have a fault of any type in pretty much their whole range of crabs, plus the slings, so it isn't a specific problem they may have identified.
It could be that they discovered that the QC guy at their factory was playing candy crush instead of checking the output and so as a preventative measure they are asking people to do their own QC for example, which is still pretty shoddy, but it doesn't mean they actually sold sewn slings put together with masking tape, rather that they can't guarantee 100% they haven't.
While looking at that document it does seem like a pretty major issue, we still don't know how many, if any at all, affected products actually made it to the market and into people's racks.
It seems that we are asked to check every single component and anything that may have a fault of any type in pretty much their whole range of crabs, plus the slings, so it isn't a specific problem they may have identified.
It could be that they discovered that the QC guy at their factory was playing candy crush instead of checking the output and so as a preventative measure they are asking people to do their own QC for example, which is still pretty shoddy, but it doesn't mean they actually sold sewn slings put together with masking tape, rather that they can't guarantee 100% they haven't.
5
In reply to SteveSBlake:
Years ago I recall Chouinard gear ( precursor to BD ) being touted as tested to half breaking load. In the days before certified QC. What happened to that?
It is possible that in formulating the testing/QC no one thought that it was possible that such a basic/ obvious error of ignoring splicing tape could happen.......
Embarrassing in the extreme.
Years ago I recall Chouinard gear ( precursor to BD ) being touted as tested to half breaking load. In the days before certified QC. What happened to that?
It is possible that in formulating the testing/QC no one thought that it was possible that such a basic/ obvious error of ignoring splicing tape could happen.......
Embarrassing in the extreme.
In reply to EddInaBox:
Thanks for the explanation, and to SteveSB.
However, I am still amazed by their appalling quality control.
Thanks for the explanation, and to SteveSB.
However, I am still amazed by their appalling quality control.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
That would make some sense of it.
> It could be that they discovered that the QC guy at their factory was playing candy crush instead of checking the output and so as a preventative measure they are asking people to do their own QC for example, which is still pretty shoddy, but it doesn't mean they actually sold sewn slings put together with masking tape, rather that they can't guarantee 100% they haven't.
That would make some sense of it.
1
In reply to Skyfall:
I'm also amazed that a) people still buy nylon slings, and b) surely when you purchased one, you would look at it, compare it to others and wonder why it had tape in the middle?
I'm also amazed that a) people still buy nylon slings, and b) surely when you purchased one, you would look at it, compare it to others and wonder why it had tape in the middle?
1
3
In reply to ianstevens:
Well, I think is probably Mr Lopez's point - no tapes joined in this way may have hit the shelves but they can't guarantee it.
Well, I think is probably Mr Lopez's point - no tapes joined in this way may have hit the shelves but they can't guarantee it.
In reply to ianstevens:
Why, they are cheaper, have slightly more elasticity, and look more substantial (I know they are at least as strong as do you, but not everyone does in-depth research before buying stuff) and nylon has the advantage that it takes significantly more effort to melt through it when subject to fabric on fabric friction although less resistance to general abrasion?
It is not unreasonable to assume that at least one compromised extender has made it out "into the wild" and been spotted by someone doing just that, hence the recall.
> I'm also amazed that a) people still buy nylon slings
Why, they are cheaper, have slightly more elasticity, and look more substantial (I know they are at least as strong as do you, but not everyone does in-depth research before buying stuff) and nylon has the advantage that it takes significantly more effort to melt through it when subject to fabric on fabric friction although less resistance to general abrasion?
> b) surely when you purchased one, you would look at it, compare it to others and wonder why it had tape in the middle?
It is not unreasonable to assume that at least one compromised extender has made it out "into the wild" and been spotted by someone doing just that, hence the recall.
2
In reply to EddInaBox:
Ed, a length of tape (compromised by a 'taped join') was purchased by an experienced climber and made it out to the crag where it was used to equalise a top rope anchor. It failed and sadly the user died as a result. The link is up thread.
Ian (Stevens) , there are lots of reasons to buy nylons slings, why on earth would people not?
Steve
Ed, a length of tape (compromised by a 'taped join') was purchased by an experienced climber and made it out to the crag where it was used to equalise a top rope anchor. It failed and sadly the user died as a result. The link is up thread.
Ian (Stevens) , there are lots of reasons to buy nylons slings, why on earth would people not?
Steve
Post edited at 13:59
3
In reply to SteveSBlake:
I know, I posted it. That accident happened many years ago and is not down to the failure of a Black Diamond extender.
> Ed, a length of tape (compromised by a 'taped join') was purchased by an experienced climber and made it out to the crag where it was used to equalise a top rope anchor. It failed and sadly the user died as a result. The link is up thread.
I know, I posted it. That accident happened many years ago and is not down to the failure of a Black Diamond extender.
2
In reply to SteveSBlake:
Have you read the recall notice, the sewn slings in question have incorporated two butt ends of tape that were 'joined' by masking tape. This is done to facilitate the reeling of the tape onto the drums sent to the manufacturer. 'Splicing' doesn't come into it.
The masking tape used to temporarily join the two ends of the tape is the 'splice'. If sold on a reel, then the shop should spot it as it is sold. If a customer buys a whole reel, then I would hope there would be some explanatory notes to explain this (see accident linked above by EddInaBox at 1132).
Black Diamond should obviously be well aware of the process of temporarily attaching the two ends using masking tape (splicing) and have a process in place to prevent it getting as far as the facility that stiches them to form slings. That is the shocking bit.
BD used to use China a lot for its manufacturing, but I believe it moved back to the US for critical safety equipment last year. Be interesting to know if the equipment was made in China or the US.
Have you read the recall notice, the sewn slings in question have incorporated two butt ends of tape that were 'joined' by masking tape. This is done to facilitate the reeling of the tape onto the drums sent to the manufacturer. 'Splicing' doesn't come into it.
The masking tape used to temporarily join the two ends of the tape is the 'splice'. If sold on a reel, then the shop should spot it as it is sold. If a customer buys a whole reel, then I would hope there would be some explanatory notes to explain this (see accident linked above by EddInaBox at 1132).
Black Diamond should obviously be well aware of the process of temporarily attaching the two ends using masking tape (splicing) and have a process in place to prevent it getting as far as the facility that stiches them to form slings. That is the shocking bit.
BD used to use China a lot for its manufacturing, but I believe it moved back to the US for critical safety equipment last year. Be interesting to know if the equipment was made in China or the US.
In reply to EddInaBox:
Ed & FactorX We are saying the same thing, Much of it already said above. I know BD extenders didn't play a part in the fatal incident, it seems it was a knotted length of tape which was compromised by a masking tape 'splice'. It is the same industry practice however, that is playing out here. (The word 'splice' to me implies a usable joint, typically woven and not a piece of masking tape.)
I'm done,
Ta ta,
Steve
Ed & FactorX We are saying the same thing, Much of it already said above. I know BD extenders didn't play a part in the fatal incident, it seems it was a knotted length of tape which was compromised by a masking tape 'splice'. It is the same industry practice however, that is playing out here. (The word 'splice' to me implies a usable joint, typically woven and not a piece of masking tape.)
I'm done,
Ta ta,
Steve
In reply to EddInaBox:
Not to mention it's burlier due to a larger surface area of material and significantly less likely to break if you knot it. Plenty of good reasons really.
> Why, they are cheaper, have slightly more elasticity, and look more substantial (I know they are at least as strong as do you, but not everyone does in-depth research before buying stuff) and nylon has the advantage that it takes significantly more effort to melt through it when subject to fabric on fabric friction although less resistance to general abrasion?
Not to mention it's burlier due to a larger surface area of material and significantly less likely to break if you knot it. Plenty of good reasons really.
2
1
In reply to TobyA:
Ok this is bad but if anyone had a sling with masking tape on and used it without looking why, then that's just Darwinism.
As for the clips I'm pretty sure I'd notice an un-riveted rivet.
Ok this is bad but if anyone had a sling with masking tape on and used it without looking why, then that's just Darwinism.
As for the clips I'm pretty sure I'd notice an un-riveted rivet.
7
In reply to krikoman:
Ok this is bad but if anyone had a sling with masking tape on and used it without looking why, then that's just Darwinism.
As for the clips I'm pretty sure I'd notice an un-riveted rivet.
Maybe with your own gear, but would you check shared gear or a in-situ quickdraw?
Ok this is bad but if anyone had a sling with masking tape on and used it without looking why, then that's just Darwinism.
As for the clips I'm pretty sure I'd notice an un-riveted rivet.
Maybe with your own gear, but would you check shared gear or a in-situ quickdraw?
3
> Ok this is bad but if anyone had a sling with masking tape on and used it without looking why, then that's just Darwinism.
> As for the clips I'm pretty sure I'd notice an un-riveted rivet.
> Maybe with your own gear, but would you check shared gear or a in-situ quickdraw?
Remembering people have died here....
A reminder to check gear over, climb with people who you know check gear over, and be careful with your knots
and always try to get some redundancy in your systems.
( says he with an old ankle break smarting with the thought of such a misdemeanour )
In reply to TobyA:
Having worked in the retail side of the industry since 1997, most brands of climbing gear have had recalls for various things,
BUT that is the worst set I've ever seen!! I know a how these things are made.
Wiregates:-
Basically the person who does the gate riveting procedure at the factory has had a few weeks off work & no one filled in, or the machine was not working correctly.
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these krabs were not properly riveted!
Locking Gates:-
Again the person for the gate assembly procedure was off work & the muppet in the factory not only have they forgotten how to rivet the gate, but also appears they don't know in what order or how to seat the knurled part & the end rings!
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these krabs were not properly assembled, not only that but the same person has not done the "adjustment" of the krab to get the gate to close freely. This is done by holding krab in a plastic nosed vice & using a special tool to twist/open the main spine.
Slings:-
Seriously?? Obviously have not been told that the material manufacturers join breaks in raw webbing with tape, so when you pull it off the reel you check for this & remove the masking tape & cut appropriately.
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these slings were not manufactured properly!
Two many problems there at the factory, mind you when I ran my own shop I used to make sure EVERYTHING was double checked before it went on the shop floor, most shops do not do this as it takes ages, but saves stuff getting to customer in bad condition. Most problems were clothing, at the cheaper end, but have seen some flaws in high end clothing, but just ones offs that have slipped through.
Having worked in the retail side of the industry since 1997, most brands of climbing gear have had recalls for various things,
BUT that is the worst set I've ever seen!! I know a how these things are made.
Wiregates:-
Basically the person who does the gate riveting procedure at the factory has had a few weeks off work & no one filled in, or the machine was not working correctly.
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these krabs were not properly riveted!
Locking Gates:-
Again the person for the gate assembly procedure was off work & the muppet in the factory not only have they forgotten how to rivet the gate, but also appears they don't know in what order or how to seat the knurled part & the end rings!
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these krabs were not properly assembled, not only that but the same person has not done the "adjustment" of the krab to get the gate to close freely. This is done by holding krab in a plastic nosed vice & using a special tool to twist/open the main spine.
Slings:-
Seriously?? Obviously have not been told that the material manufacturers join breaks in raw webbing with tape, so when you pull it off the reel you check for this & remove the masking tape & cut appropriately.
Then the person who has to QA/final inspection did not notice that these slings were not manufactured properly!
Two many problems there at the factory, mind you when I ran my own shop I used to make sure EVERYTHING was double checked before it went on the shop floor, most shops do not do this as it takes ages, but saves stuff getting to customer in bad condition. Most problems were clothing, at the cheaper end, but have seen some flaws in high end clothing, but just ones offs that have slipped through.
In reply to TobyA:
Jesus H - their Quality Control procedures must be VERY, very bad (it's as though they don't actually have any!) to let that wide range of multiple manufacturing faults through. Shocking & horrendous. I will never buy any BD hardware again.
Jesus H - their Quality Control procedures must be VERY, very bad (it's as though they don't actually have any!) to let that wide range of multiple manufacturing faults through. Shocking & horrendous. I will never buy any BD hardware again.
Post edited at 18:56
4
In reply to TobyA:
We don't actually know very much, such as if any faulty items have even been sold. It could be that a later stage of quality control found problems which an earlier stage of quality control should have spotted, and they have lost faith in their quality control process.
Or it could be the total and utter cluster**** it seems :P
We don't actually know very much, such as if any faulty items have even been sold. It could be that a later stage of quality control found problems which an earlier stage of quality control should have spotted, and they have lost faith in their quality control process.
Or it could be the total and utter cluster**** it seems :P
3
In reply to 99ster:
I can't think of a firm that hasn't had a recall - I'm sure there is one but I don't know who - so, yeah - this all looks pretty bad - but I don't think I'd go as far as you're saying. Over the years I've also had lots of fun using BD gear and plenty of times their kit has worked just as it should and kept me from getting hurt when falling off.
But, yes - I really hope everyone sees the recall before someone does get hurt using something that should never have got out of the factory. I might ask UKC if they will do news item on this as I understand lots of site users don't use the forums.
> Shocking & horrendous. I will never buy any BD hardware again.
I can't think of a firm that hasn't had a recall - I'm sure there is one but I don't know who - so, yeah - this all looks pretty bad - but I don't think I'd go as far as you're saying. Over the years I've also had lots of fun using BD gear and plenty of times their kit has worked just as it should and kept me from getting hurt when falling off.
But, yes - I really hope everyone sees the recall before someone does get hurt using something that should never have got out of the factory. I might ask UKC if they will do news item on this as I understand lots of site users don't use the forums.
2
In reply to TobyA:
The tape manufacturers do sometimes have to start a new length mid reel. Masking tape seems a reasonable choice as it's easy to spot, low-tack and temporary looking. It should never make its way into a finished product. Clearly it has happened but, as others have hinted, you do have to wonder about a climber who's not curious about a masking-taped break in their new sling. Or a retailer who sells it for that matter.
Less obvious would be if the taped section happened to be concealed in a sewn joint where it might pass an individual load test but fail at well below specification.
The tape manufacturers do sometimes have to start a new length mid reel. Masking tape seems a reasonable choice as it's easy to spot, low-tack and temporary looking. It should never make its way into a finished product. Clearly it has happened but, as others have hinted, you do have to wonder about a climber who's not curious about a masking-taped break in their new sling. Or a retailer who sells it for that matter.
Less obvious would be if the taped section happened to be concealed in a sewn joint where it might pass an individual load test but fail at well below specification.
In reply to matthew:
A better choice might be a custom printed tape with a big warning symbol and the legend 'YOU'RE GOING TO DIE IF YOU USE THIS!!!!'
Any system that relies on humans is prone to failure occasionally and the failure rate is very hard to quantify, by our nature if that failure does not have an immediate (possibly catastrophic) consequence it tends to go unnoticed. Automated systems can fail, but tend to do it in a more traceable way. I can think of several ways Black Diamond could have avoided this problem, for example a simple optical sensor to detect splices as the tape came off the reel. Better still would be a system similar to that used on food production lines in many factories all over the world, workers sometimes use plasters (the sort that cover cuts) and these could fall off into the food, so special (usually blue) plasters with a metal trace in are used and at the end of the line a metal detector automatically discards any product that triggers it, sticky tape with a metal trace would enable such a system to be implemented at minimal cost.
> The tape manufacturers do sometimes have to start a new length mid reel. Masking tape seems a reasonable choice as it's easy to spot, low-tack and temporary looking...
A better choice might be a custom printed tape with a big warning symbol and the legend 'YOU'RE GOING TO DIE IF YOU USE THIS!!!!'
Any system that relies on humans is prone to failure occasionally and the failure rate is very hard to quantify, by our nature if that failure does not have an immediate (possibly catastrophic) consequence it tends to go unnoticed. Automated systems can fail, but tend to do it in a more traceable way. I can think of several ways Black Diamond could have avoided this problem, for example a simple optical sensor to detect splices as the tape came off the reel. Better still would be a system similar to that used on food production lines in many factories all over the world, workers sometimes use plasters (the sort that cover cuts) and these could fall off into the food, so special (usually blue) plasters with a metal trace in are used and at the end of the line a metal detector automatically discards any product that triggers it, sticky tape with a metal trace would enable such a system to be implemented at minimal cost.
1
In reply to TobyA:
It's the fact that there are multiple issues that concerns me the most. That is strongly indicative of a big failure of quality control and a company culture that's gone very wrong. That should never, ever happen with products like this.
It's the fact that there are multiple issues that concerns me the most. That is strongly indicative of a big failure of quality control and a company culture that's gone very wrong. That should never, ever happen with products like this.
In reply to 99ster:
A little digging around the internet reveals that Black Diamond was sold in 2010 to a company called Clarus which had been asset stripped and then the remaining shell was used to buy Black Diamond. The person behind this was Warren B. Kanders, whose business practices, including supplying the U.S. military, have received a substantial amount of criticism.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=493301&v=1#x6745128
A little digging around the internet reveals that Black Diamond was sold in 2010 to a company called Clarus which had been asset stripped and then the remaining shell was used to buy Black Diamond. The person behind this was Warren B. Kanders, whose business practices, including supplying the U.S. military, have received a substantial amount of criticism.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=493301&v=1#x6745128
In reply to 99ster:
It does though, and more often than you might think.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gear-recalls-and-warnings
Steve
It does though, and more often than you might think.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gear-recalls-and-warnings
Steve
In reply to SteveSBlake:
Not to this extent - I can't think of another incident where so many products have had such a variety of faults (though I'm stand by to be corrected).
Not to this extent - I can't think of another incident where so many products have had such a variety of faults (though I'm stand by to be corrected).
In reply to TobyA:
thanks for post and worth reading is the link of the death involving tapes not jointed posted by EddInaBox:
Lot of talk about QA, well my view is this ;
To BD your playing with my life, i dont like this.
what is the level of competence of the people sowing the tapes up, is it so low as not to have a insight into what is being manufacturer, ----- last week sowing knickers ---------- today my life is in your hands !?
Having been into Troll in the 70 and seeing the girls sowing I am sure it would not have ever happen, ever.
Suppose a lot of manufacturing is over seas, I know mountain equipment do /did having once been given a ME coat brand new with the lining mesh cut out, but why I asked have you done this ? the answer was because the "£$%* think that they can send any old mesh lining and not use the one quoted on the specification.
However the point is, and I do worry about it. If fake goods are as prevalent as I believe, what is the probability of part of my and your rack being counterfeit and not safe, have a look on Ebay to see just whats available from made in China.
The rivets, must have passed many eyes before getting onto a hook at the back of the counter, and we have missed it too.
Is it QA or just the bottom line of dividend for someones pension, or the difference in hitting a bonus for the guy on the riveting press? ? but as has been asked just how many are out I suppose can be told from the numbering.
The old ones will remember nut on wire had a swaging that could be seen, Why has it become the norm to cover this with the plastic and the marking? do I now trust BD. to swage properly or is it held together by a shrink wrap?
thanks for post and worth reading is the link of the death involving tapes not jointed posted by EddInaBox:
Lot of talk about QA, well my view is this ;
To BD your playing with my life, i dont like this.
what is the level of competence of the people sowing the tapes up, is it so low as not to have a insight into what is being manufacturer, ----- last week sowing knickers ---------- today my life is in your hands !?
Having been into Troll in the 70 and seeing the girls sowing I am sure it would not have ever happen, ever.
Suppose a lot of manufacturing is over seas, I know mountain equipment do /did having once been given a ME coat brand new with the lining mesh cut out, but why I asked have you done this ? the answer was because the "£$%* think that they can send any old mesh lining and not use the one quoted on the specification.
However the point is, and I do worry about it. If fake goods are as prevalent as I believe, what is the probability of part of my and your rack being counterfeit and not safe, have a look on Ebay to see just whats available from made in China.
The rivets, must have passed many eyes before getting onto a hook at the back of the counter, and we have missed it too.
Is it QA or just the bottom line of dividend for someones pension, or the difference in hitting a bonus for the guy on the riveting press? ? but as has been asked just how many are out I suppose can be told from the numbering.
The old ones will remember nut on wire had a swaging that could be seen, Why has it become the norm to cover this with the plastic and the marking? do I now trust BD. to swage properly or is it held together by a shrink wrap?
1
1
In reply to Name Changed 34:
A plea to manufacturers of tape. carry on joining with masking tape BUT put in a 4'' length of opposing coulour tape, yes it will mean 2 joints but can be seen and marked up appropriately--------------- as above your going to die if you use this..
A plea to manufacturers of tape. carry on joining with masking tape BUT put in a 4'' length of opposing coulour tape, yes it will mean 2 joints but can be seen and marked up appropriately--------------- as above your going to die if you use this..
In reply to Name Changed 34: As they say in the recall....
A Black Diamond dealer contacted us after finding a Nylon Sling with a taped splice. We immediately stopped production and delivery of Nylon Slings and issued a recall.
WHAT IS BLACK DIAMOND DOING?
During the manufacturing process, the tubular nylon webbing used in our Nylon Runners is wound onto spools that may contain multiple strands of nylon webbing. These strands are connected by taped splices that, if undetected in the inspection process, could be included in a finished Nylon Runner.
We have determined the scope of potentially affected units and issued a recall, subject to inspection, of all Nylon Runners potentially affected by the issues we discovered.
Furthermore, we have worked with the webbing manufacturer to eliminate the use of tape splices in the spools of nylon webbing used in our Nylon Runners.
A Black Diamond dealer contacted us after finding a Nylon Sling with a taped splice. We immediately stopped production and delivery of Nylon Slings and issued a recall.
WHAT IS BLACK DIAMOND DOING?
During the manufacturing process, the tubular nylon webbing used in our Nylon Runners is wound onto spools that may contain multiple strands of nylon webbing. These strands are connected by taped splices that, if undetected in the inspection process, could be included in a finished Nylon Runner.
We have determined the scope of potentially affected units and issued a recall, subject to inspection, of all Nylon Runners potentially affected by the issues we discovered.
Furthermore, we have worked with the webbing manufacturer to eliminate the use of tape splices in the spools of nylon webbing used in our Nylon Runners.
In reply to TobyA: yep, shocking QC. But its 3 sigma rated so it must be fine. The sooner people get their heads out of their arses about 3 sigma the better. Its a statistical method subverted by marketers and then abused by the penny pinchers of the world, and then misunderstood by clients. The sooner automated production and vision system quality control is implemented the better, we need qc systems which are robust rather than prone to human error. Sick and tired of hearing about entirely avoidable and really really basic things like this going wrong, it jus shouldn't happen. And for info, Metolius hasn't had a recall. Funnily enough they proof load their kit...
5
1
In reply to beardy mike:
Hmm, apart from the 2004 recall for karabiners with pin riveting issues......
And they should have recalled all their powder coated bolt hangers but instead gave back-door advice they should only be used in desert climates due to corrosion problems.
> And for info, Metolius hasn't had a recall. Funnily enough they proof load their kit...
Hmm, apart from the 2004 recall for karabiners with pin riveting issues......
And they should have recalled all their powder coated bolt hangers but instead gave back-door advice they should only be used in desert climates due to corrosion problems.
In reply to Name Changed 34:
You may have missed the point that the BD problems occurred after they moved production back to the USA from China
The Chinese made stuff is fine.
You may have missed the point that the BD problems occurred after they moved production back to the USA from China
The Chinese made stuff is fine.
Post edited at 19:34
1
In reply to jimtitt: I stand corrected...
In reply to 99ster:
Why would you think I think that?
I apologise if it wasn't clear, but the purpose of posting the link was to point out to you that you need to save some indignation so you can share it around a bit with other manufacturers. It's wasted on me
All recalls are pretty shocking, but once I've done what checks I can, I'm pretty sanguine about continuing to use a particular brand - As the list shows many have had recalls, I don't 'strike them off' because of that.
Regards,
Steve
Why would you think I think that?
I apologise if it wasn't clear, but the purpose of posting the link was to point out to you that you need to save some indignation so you can share it around a bit with other manufacturers. It's wasted on me
All recalls are pretty shocking, but once I've done what checks I can, I'm pretty sanguine about continuing to use a particular brand - As the list shows many have had recalls, I don't 'strike them off' because of that.
Regards,
Steve
1
In reply to TobyA:
My work has banned DMM carabiners after their recent recall of poor quality carabiners. I suppose Black Diamond will be banned next given this. Its a bit worrying that fall arrest companies treat their quality like the car industry and not similar to plane manufacturers as it should be.
My work has banned DMM carabiners after their recent recall of poor quality carabiners. I suppose Black Diamond will be banned next given this. Its a bit worrying that fall arrest companies treat their quality like the car industry and not similar to plane manufacturers as it should be.
In reply to fmck:
I know several people who work in the UK aero industry at various levels, RAF & private, fixed wing & rotary. Some of the manufacturing balls ups are very interesting to say the least!!!
DMM recalls were for the "pusher" in the gate which fails very early in it's life (after a few activations). Basically the gate does not snap back to close, due to tight tolerances. Facts from DMM news Sept 2015. Not a "failure" which affects the strength of the item, gate can still be closed & used & will not fall out. I've had these "pushers" fail/get sticky due to age/grit etc. on any make of krab.
The Black Diamond recall is for serious QA issues resulting in dangerous products, not full manufactured being released onto the market. These items are affected strength wise & compromised in security in retention of components.
If your work bans any company because of any recall then what gear are they using? as every company has had recalls, some minor some major!
> My work has banned DMM carabiners after their recent recall of poor quality carabiners. I suppose Black Diamond will be banned next given this. Its a bit worrying that fall arrest companies treat their quality like the car industry and not similar to plane manufacturers as it should be.
I know several people who work in the UK aero industry at various levels, RAF & private, fixed wing & rotary. Some of the manufacturing balls ups are very interesting to say the least!!!
DMM recalls were for the "pusher" in the gate which fails very early in it's life (after a few activations). Basically the gate does not snap back to close, due to tight tolerances. Facts from DMM news Sept 2015. Not a "failure" which affects the strength of the item, gate can still be closed & used & will not fall out. I've had these "pushers" fail/get sticky due to age/grit etc. on any make of krab.
The Black Diamond recall is for serious QA issues resulting in dangerous products, not full manufactured being released onto the market. These items are affected strength wise & compromised in security in retention of components.
If your work bans any company because of any recall then what gear are they using? as every company has had recalls, some minor some major!
1
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
I had, or at least I was not awhere of the manufacturing location of BD. I have no doubt that China can mach any Western work and possibility surpass it, if they choose to do so.
The point's That concerns me are, the counterfeiting of goods, and, or the allowance of profit to take over.
pharmaceutical companies, clothing, cosmetics, Tool components, watches, and so on have all had to deal with counterfeiting. are we at risk of substandard counterfeit goods in the climbing world? [ rhetorical question] if the world has spivs who will poison baby milk, for gain the the answer must be yes. And I did follow a UKC link to BMC that had a Petzl note about counterfeiting
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/warning-over-fake-petzl-equipment
Quality, I see no reason why counterfeit could not be as good , or better, I suspected however it is more likely to be sub stranded and even when made in the same factory using the same materials, i proffer it will lack any QA QI.
Tape issue, I my view is one that should have been stooped at source by the sowing machinist, they should not have been able to put a sling in a finished box knowing it was not as standard----------the Standard having bean drummed into the machinist from day one, BD. may have seen to this?, but then we have the pay of the machinist, and if payed on price work corner cutting is going to happen, do we need to pay more for our gear? I think the same can be said for the riveting.
It is our responsibility and our life ,to have fit for the job gear, we take on trust it is fit for purpose. Should we? witch is why I asked about the covering of the swaging of wires, I do hope that someone can enlighten us
I had, or at least I was not awhere of the manufacturing location of BD. I have no doubt that China can mach any Western work and possibility surpass it, if they choose to do so.
The point's That concerns me are, the counterfeiting of goods, and, or the allowance of profit to take over.
pharmaceutical companies, clothing, cosmetics, Tool components, watches, and so on have all had to deal with counterfeiting. are we at risk of substandard counterfeit goods in the climbing world? [ rhetorical question] if the world has spivs who will poison baby milk, for gain the the answer must be yes. And I did follow a UKC link to BMC that had a Petzl note about counterfeiting
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/warning-over-fake-petzl-equipment
Quality, I see no reason why counterfeit could not be as good , or better, I suspected however it is more likely to be sub stranded and even when made in the same factory using the same materials, i proffer it will lack any QA QI.
Tape issue, I my view is one that should have been stooped at source by the sowing machinist, they should not have been able to put a sling in a finished box knowing it was not as standard----------the Standard having bean drummed into the machinist from day one, BD. may have seen to this?, but then we have the pay of the machinist, and if payed on price work corner cutting is going to happen, do we need to pay more for our gear? I think the same can be said for the riveting.
It is our responsibility and our life ,to have fit for the job gear, we take on trust it is fit for purpose. Should we? witch is why I asked about the covering of the swaging of wires, I do hope that someone can enlighten us
Post edited at 11:02
In reply to Snowdave:
Don't agree with them banning DMM carabiners but not much can be done as they are a large organisation. As it turns out we didn't have any DMM gear at my particular site nor BD for that matter. Loads of fall arrest equipment in use though.
I agree with gates sticking I have had to shut them manually but usually in winter conditions.
Don't agree with them banning DMM carabiners but not much can be done as they are a large organisation. As it turns out we didn't have any DMM gear at my particular site nor BD for that matter. Loads of fall arrest equipment in use though.
I agree with gates sticking I have had to shut them manually but usually in winter conditions.
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