UKC

It is well known that these tools sing you a nasty song after not too long. The heads on mine can now be made to move by hand. A couple of questions.

Has anyone had a tool fail?

Do other tools suffer the same problem? DMM tools certainly used too, I swore off them years ago, doing the same with pretzel now.

I have heard from a number of folk that petzl/lyon are less than helpful when it comes to this fault, I guess it is not worth taking that path. Shame really, well designed tool, poor material choice and build quality

In reply to 3leggeddog:
Mines have also came loose after only 8 mixed routes, with about 2-3mm of movement in the head. Currently at Petzl for further inspection.

I've never heard of the head failing full blown on the Nomic and I think Petzl have tested them to destruction finding that the handle of the axe broke before the head failed. Still, I'd rather not think about whether my axe is going to break when I'm feeling sketched out above a dodgy runner.

In reply to Nath93:

Be interested to hear how you get on with that.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Have sent you an email.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

you just don't know your own strength!

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

If only that were true!

Have fun next week, no horse heads, capiche!

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I have heard that the newer grivel axes are maybe a bit more robust. I would quite like to have a shot and see how they compare.

http://www.grivelgb.co.uk/products/ice-axes/the-tech-machine/

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

I recently returned a Grivel Quantum Race to the Mountain Boot Co, the head was wobbling, I figured due to single rivet? I had previous experience 3 times climbing on Charlet Pulsars.

Fantastic customer service ensued, agreed there was a fault, replaced with a new Tech Machine. Whilst talking with them, mentioned the newest production Tech Machines, now came with 2 rivets, original only had single rivet!!

I believe Nomics only have 1 rivet securing head on top of shaft?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Yeah, grivel customer service is great (and their axes are pretty robust too).

The single rivet could be the cause but I believe it is also due to the alu head. Never had wobbly head problems with steel heads (vertiges, hyper couloirs, tech machines) Both of the axes I,ve owned with alu heads have gone this way ( aliens, nomics).

I think there is only bd offering steel headed tech tools now? Anyone had problems with those?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I preferred the feel of Nomics but went with DMM Switches for this very reason. Double rivet on the Switches and they feel reassuringly robust.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
I had this problem; a set of Nomics used for two season became very wobbly! I sent them back to Lyon Equipment and was told that they were not designed for mixed climbing and therefore I had been using them in an inappropriate manner - WTF!!!!! As Stuart says, they only have one rivet in the head. This seems a major design flaw. I now have DMM Switches (2 rivets) which seem much more sturdy.

In reply to DaveHK:

Thanks, I will check them out. It is probably sacrilegious to say it around these parts but I have never been impressed with dmm gear since I had my fingers burned with the aliens. Style above substance, well designed but poor build and materials, much like my criticisms of the nomics.

I think my aliens had 2 rivets holding the head on and still wobbled, long time ago though, hazy memory.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
BD - make sure the bolts are super tight as they can come undone while climbing! It's happened to me after not tightening properly after changing picks on Cobras and the other weekend my partner arrived back at the car with a pick missing off one of his fusions! Thinking about it, that happened to another mate last war, also with fusions.

I've heard the tech machines also have wobbly heads but this is second hand info. Also sounds like the design has been improved.

My Nomics are holding up for now (new last season) but I did hear some creaking while tooling recently so might be a case of when not whether... For tooling I use ergos and those are fine but too radical for the real stuff.

In reply to Misha:

Cheers Misha, interesting that no one has mentioned head problems with ergos or quarks as they share a common head with the nomics and I cant imagine the build process being any different. Same tool, different shaft.

Sounds like the bd bolt issue can be fixed with a little loctite, an easy fix but on a tool costing the thick end of £200, should you really have too?

In reply to Misha:

Top typo by the way! Sometimes auto correct is great.

War climbing, very apt.

In reply to 3leggeddog:


Even steel heads can develop the slop, when the aluminum shaft malforms a bit.


Haven't heard of any such problems. But people have broken the pic attachment ... a few pics here:http://www.rollomixed.com/2012/11/type-bn-tn-ja-on-ero.html

In reply to 3leggeddog:

It was a long time ago (1989 I think) but I was soloing on Hell's Lum when the pick on my Cassin Extreme axe snapped off about 3 inches from the end! There was enough pick left for me to top out but it was a scary moment. When I checked the hammer later there were obvious hair line cracks from most of the teeth. I still have them if anyone is interested in buying them?
I got some Veritiges which had their own problems with wobbly picks but at least they never failed on me!

In reply to 3leggeddog:

My BD vipers have had 10 years 5 picks each at least not a problem.

In reply to alasdair19:

Yeh. I had those - a few years ago. After a day out in S C N L and me commenting on how they seemed to be very popular my mate said.

' Aye John. They're the clitoris of the winter climbers tool selection options'

I moved up to Nomics a couple of years back. However I guess the same comment may still apply?

In reply to John Workman:

I get told off for referring to transporters as clitoris vans

In reply to 3leggeddog:


I'm sure this would be obvious - but do you have the metal spacer inserted between the pick and the mounting point in the head? If you have the hammer or adze attachment then these aren't necessary, but without them, the standard picks don't completely fill the slot in the head.

Interestingly, the Krukonogi replacement picks are the full width of the slot and don't require a spacer.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
Heard back from Petzl about my Nomics.

They came to the conclusion that the head came loose due to my misuse of the axe (read actually used it for its designed purpose). I still feel like a tool the price of a Nomic should withstand a few blows of Scottish winter and not come loose after 8 routes of mediocre (check logbook) winter action. It's a shame because it really is a superb tool, I just wish it was slightly more burly. Petzl could definitely do this but they reckon it wouldn't sell because it would be too heavy and have a crap swing.

Due to some form of connection to the business side of things, they did however agree to replace my tools as a gesture of goodwill, but I get a picture that this definitely won't be the done thing for all punters with creaking or loose headsets. I have heard of people drilling a hole near the rivet and bolting the headset into place but this is obviously a pretty proper and serious job and would most definitely invalidate the warranty, a big decision to make really.

I have since decided to sell the Nomics and got DMM Switches instead, although a bit heavier they seem like a far more all-round and robust tool that will stand up to a bit of beating.

In reply to Matt Buchanan:

>... and was told that they were not designed for mixed climbing and therefore I had been using them in an inappropriate manner

Just had a look on Petzl's website and it says: "...without the MASSELOTTES pick weights, the NOMIC becomes considerably lighter for dry tooling".

Surely that's selling it for tooling, and thus it's intended purpose??

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Petzl use the term dry tooling to cover everything involved that isn't pure ice climbing, so dry tooling to them basically means mixed climbing.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Three things -

A friend of mine had a Nomic head come loose just from ice fall climbing. On that occasion, because there were no scarring or marks from mixed climbing, Lyon replaced it.

I've heard some employees at Lyon, (NOT LYON ITSELF) advise getting a second rivet put in.

I drive a transporter, but that did make me laugh!

In reply to Exile:


The head does not extend very far down the shaft so you need to be careful doing this.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I have E-climb Cryo 2's and the head is never going to come loose as its a single piece construction from one piece of aluminium, problem solved. These are slightly less aggressive than the Ergos and work brilliantly on tooling (mine have dragged me up 9+), mixed (saw some action on an VIII) and pure ice no probs with 4+/5 in Cogne recently. Ramon Marin uses E-Climb Pros to good effect on some of the hardest routes in all genres around the world so there is a suggestion.

In reply to Exile:

That really is quite shocking, an admission of guilt from within (and an employee with loose lips).

Nath93, Thanks for the update, seems returns are ok if you have friends in high places.

None of this paints a favourable picture of Petzl or Lyon. Having read of the struggles others have had returning, I am not going to bother, I will go elsewhere. This is a shame because the nomics do climb really well.

The outdoor world is quite small, someone from Petzl/Lyon will read this thread and many others in a similar vein, they would be well advised to learn from them.

I will be relegating my nomics to dry tooling, where at least I have the confidence of only taking a sport climbing fall when they fail.

To continue with the motoring theme, brought about by my reference to transporters, are Petzl Nomics the equivalent of Ford Edsels?

In reply to Nath93:

The promo video for the quark, nomic and ergo seems to suggest its for "really hard drytooling" according to Ueli Steck.

Disappointing that they would promote it as a mixed tool and then say its not for mixed climbing.

After trying my mates a few times I was just about to get my own!

Can't say enough good things about DMM axes at the minute, I've given my apex's a hard time over the last couple of years and no problems at all.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Thoroughly impressed with my DMM Anarchists for mixed, although currently trying to sell them (£90) due to the lack of an anchor point at the bottom of the shaft for Alpine... Great I-frame shaft, shame they didn't continue with it on the Switches!

Scottish winter mixed demands a lot more (torquing etc) from tools than continental mixed. Light isn't always right!

NMM

In reply to Rob N:

I had Apex's for two seasons before "upgrading" to Nomics and they took a proper battering with no problems or fears of shaky heads, which was my reasoning with going for the Switch as its essentially the same tool with a different handle by the looks of things.

I wouldn't recommend Nomics to people now unless they are going to be using them purely for ice climbing, keep them away from rocks.

In reply to Nath93:
Think I'll keep my old Quarks going for a bit, they're called "Up" and "Down"!

And the Pulsars, if I want something a bit more Higgsy