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Ramsay's Round training.

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 DaveHK 07 Feb 2016

I'm thinking about a crack at the RR in late June / early July.

I've drawn up a basic training programme based on ultra programmes found online.

It's over 11 weeks and builds from a 40 mile week to two 80 mile weeks in 5 mile steps with a 2 week taper. There are 3 build weeks with a recovery week every 4th week. The majority of the miles will be 2 weekend runs with an intervals session with the running club on a Tuesday and a steady midweek run on a Thursday. I imagine the biggest run in peak week will be no more than 35 miles. Obviously it will all be done on the right sort of terrain.

I would welcome the thoughts of those with relevant experience on this.

Ta
Post edited at 21:59
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:
Nobody? I thought there was quite a hill running / ultra community on here. Calling Roadrunner5 to the forum?
Post edited at 15:54
 petestack 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:
You don't need a prescriptive precision programme, intervals etc. to do this. You just want to be running *on real hills* a lot (> 10,000ft ascent per week is a typical ballpark figure) and be able to keep going... and going... and going at a modest speed.

Edit: not that I'd advise this, but two weeks before mine I apparently did 'a slightly unplanned 68 miles/25,300 ft of proper hill running and some cycling', then just a one-week 'mini taper'...

http://www.petestack.com/blog/ramsays-round-schedule.html

Post edited at 16:43
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

It's not really proscriptive but I felt like a bit of a plan would help so that I ramped up the miles in sensible chunks.
 petestack 08 Feb 2016
Well, OK, if you like it that way (but note the hills really are the important bit). I just like to know the overall shape of my workload and fill it out on an almost spontaneous basis, though the work still gets done!

In my case I'd already done a West Highland Way Race earlier that summer, so had just five weeks to balance up a quick recovery, some good hill bashing and that mini taper...

 elliptic 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Eleven weeks is a short time unless you've already got a strong foundation. Most people (ie. decently fit club fellrunners) would put in six months or more for an RR or BGR or whatever.

That's not to say it can't be done with less - I did the BGR on two and a half months of specific training, but that was on top of five months of road bike / MTB work which put me in the best aerobic form of my life, so the hill training was mostly just to convert that fitness and condition my legs to take the battering.

You'll need to be very targeted in your training to get maximum value from it. I was doing evening hill sessions 2/3 times a week and long mountain runs at the weekend, but no flat running at all - the run in from Newlands on my actual round was 2/3 of my entire mileage on tarmac that year!

OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

I've never used such a structured approach before but I'm really bad for overdoing stuff early on so hoped it would help me avoid that and the associated injury risk.

OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to elliptic:

I feel like I've got a pretty good base from a mix of running and big winter climbing days. I managed decent performances in the Glen Coe Skyline and OMM on only a few longer training runs so felt the length of build up would probably be sufficient.

Do the 80 mile peak weeks sound about right? I would ensure they were sufficiently hilly.
 elliptic 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Sounds like you've got something to work with then. The distance is probably in the right ballpark, but weekly mileage actually matters a lot less than weekly ascent/descent and the distance of your longer weekend runs eg. work up to doing half-distance 10-12 hour outings on comparable terrain, and at least once significantly further/longer than than that (I did the Welsh 3000s as my final long training run). Meanwhile your midweek sessions can be relatively short and sharp.
 Roadrunner5 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:
I wouldn't be structured. I'd just bang out miles and lots of ascent. Condition your body so hills aren't a problem. That's where most rounds fail, 30k of descent trashes them.

Just hills hills hills..
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:


> Just hills hills hills..

I'm cool with that. One of the things that convinced me to give it a go was that the training would just be doing something I love, long runs in the hills.
 Roadrunner5 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

The other thing is workout your night section and do it a few times. Be comfortable on the hills at night. Some people get quite stressed by it.

Having done the glencoe race you'll be fine with the rest.

Maybe look at the tranter round as a big prep day or at least big legs of it, so continuous traverses of the major ridge lines.
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

I live in Inverness so reconnaissance is no problem and I'm already quite familiar with some sections. The Tranter was already on my list for prep. I'm quite happy being out in the dark but I was planning to do a couple of long runs through the night. Good idea to do it on the same section as on the actual round, cheers for that.

Now I'm thinking about it more seriously I'm starting to get excited!
 ross 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Hi Dave, I did the BGR last year and Tranter 3 weeks later. I felt comfortable on both. I'm not a club runner, I don't have a training diary and I couldn't tell you how far my runs were or how much ascent they had. I run one or twice a week after work for 1-2 hrs.

But I go winter climbing and ski touring every weekend that conditions allow and I get quite a few Fridays off too so I'm often out 3 days in a row.

My point is that if you're just trying to get round in under 24hrs I don't think you have to do very much running to prepare; you'll only run the flats and downs and power walk the hills. And if you're used to power walking Munroes in ski boots carrying all your ski gear, it's really easy to do it in trainers and bum bag.

The fittest I've been for Ramsay type things was after a 3 week touring trip to the Alps when I didn't go a single run but spent lots of time at altitude skinning uphill.

Best of luck, Ross.
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to ross:
I agree that big hill days, climbing or skiing are quite good preparation. I've got the time to commit to this though so it would be interesting to put in some proper training and see what happens. Ultimately though I'd be happy with 23:59!
Post edited at 20:18
 petestack 08 Feb 2016
In reply to ross:

> just trying to get round in under 24hrs I don't think you have to do very much running to prepare

For Tranter, no problem, but Ramsay is like 15/16-hour Tranter and keep going at the same speed (and, yes, I saw that you've done the BGR). And unless you're very lucky, things *will* go wrong no matter how fit you are and how well you know these hills... I know, I live under them, thought halfway round I was on for a 22-something and was relieved to scrape 23:50 in the end. I've seen better runners than me take multiple attempts to get it and, despite Jon Ascroft's fantastic new record, have to say 'just trying to get round in under 24hrs' is no gimme for anyone.

 petestack 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

> I ultimately though I'd be happy with 23:59!

Unless you're chasing records, there's really only one time that matters, Dave! And it was mainly the thought of having to do it all again that kept me going when I was struggling towards to the end and knew how tight it was getting!

OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

I've read your blog Pete and it sounded grim!
 Roadrunner5 08 Feb 2016
In reply to ross:

You must have good natural fitness to do it off so much.

I loved FITC as it summed up the brutal lengths people go to complete the BGR. I helped many do Paddy Buckley's and saw many fall apart after 16-17 hours, especially those late hours/early mornings when they felt sick. probably the biggest single reason people fail is not being able to handle those horrible hours between 1 am and 5 am. I find once the sun comes up I feel much better. I used to pace lots of night sections for people just to get used to being out at that time. Learn how you can get through them, what foods you can fall back on etc. On almost every round there is a period of sickness.

The BGR is less conditions dependent I think though, it has some rock but has much more paths than the other two. Wet weather on Paddy is easily worth the best part of an hour and that for many is too much.

But the big thing is just keep going, climb well, descend steadily, don't try to gain times on descents. But get out to your local hill as much as you can (Wyvis maybe). Even if its just 600-800 foot, two of them will help. On these rounds you often only do valley to summit 2,3,4 times. Normally the ascents aren't that long just lots of them.
In reply to DaveHK:
You're half way there already Dave- obviously fit enough so I can see why you fancy training a bit more specifically. For me- a winter of hard climbing days, a spring of ski touring/gullys, and a summer of running up and down munros- pretty much as Ross said! Keep distances really sensible(don't stress about weekly totals- and try not to get injured) . I did a good number of 10,000ft ascent weeks for UTMB often in pretty short distances - eg up and down munros back to the car , grab food/drink, go again....

Then it's a head game- practice going out for runs at bed time , go out for a few hours before work, practice the eating part etc etc etc

You know all this though!!!
Good luck


Give's a shout for a run nearer the time.
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

> probably the biggest single reason people fail is not being able to handle those horrible hours between 1 am and 5 am.

3 or 4 am winter climbing starts are probably good prep for that.
OP DaveHK 08 Feb 2016
In reply to graeme gatherer:

Cheers Graeme.
 bouldery bits 08 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:


I'm not an expert in the rounds but just want to remind you of the key training rule - D.F.Y.U (Don't F** Yourself Up!).

Best of luck!
 elliptic 09 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Out of idle curiosity I've been back through my training logs and it turns out I did my BGR on 200 miles *total* of running / fell training in the three months leading up. Never added it up before and I'm actually quite shocked as I thought I'd done rather more.

Obviously it was backed up with a lot of time on the bike etc. plus many years of long mountain days already in the bank (much like yourself).

I'm not necessarily recommending the approach as it did also involve a large dose of MTFU on the day!
 GraB 09 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Seems like some good advice on the thread, Dave. I've only done the BGR so no expert but obviously going to try for RR also. From limited experience on the BG I'd say the 3 things to make sure you do or don't do would be:

Hills - lots of them. I think you can tick that one off already.
Get your head in to night running. Probably a bit more than setting off for an early start in winter. I was warned before not to underestimate this one and in hindsight it was very good advice. Go out for at least a couple of long night training runs. Start at 9 or 10 and run through till 5 or 6 sort of thing.
Don't get injured through over doing it. In the end my BG training became a bit of a balancing act between making sure I had enough miles in me and managing the inevitable injuries as I picked them up.
Make sure you have enough pick me ups between the legs - people, brews, selection of food to choose from, whatever..

And definitely be prepared in your head for stuff to go wrong. I was utterly set on getting a sub 20hour BG but on the day was very happy with 23h. I had a nightmare on the first 2 legs, which I had expected to go like clockwork (i.e. underestimated). BY the time I was at Dunmail Raise my morale was in tatters - I was very lucky to have some good people around me to get me going again.

Gimme a shout for some training runs. Free this weekend if you're keen.
iusedtoclimb 09 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Any chance you could share your plan?
 Roadrunner5 09 Feb 2016
In reply to elliptic:

> Out of idle curiosity I've been back through my training logs and it turns out I did my BGR on 200 miles *total* of running / fell training in the three months leading up. Never added it up before and I'm actually quite shocked as I thought I'd done rather more.

> Obviously it was backed up with a lot of time on the bike etc. plus many years of long mountain days already in the bank (much like yourself).

> I'm not necessarily recommending the approach as it did also involve a large dose of MTFU on the day!

It also depends on your history. That deep stamina comes from years of training for these events.

A few years ago I was just road racing, I was never in the mountains as I was working in the US all the time. A mate knocked on my door and wanted me to do the OMM elite with him, I did that, felt OK.

So thought I'd do a winter paddy buckley.. although I was purely road running at the time I still had the strength from the years of mountain running and finished just over 24 in full winter conditions with some awful weather.

Interestingly now I've lost that strength. I can still go out for 6-10 hour days but I hurt far more the few days afterwards. It has been 3-4 years since I was out on the hills on an almost daily basis and I've just lost that overall strength despite still running around 70 miles a week. Hopefully we move to the white mountains in NH this summer...
OP DaveHK 09 Feb 2016
In reply to iusedtoclimb:
> Any chance you could share your plan?

The plan in its entirety is in my first post! It was pretty loose, just to try and give a bit of shape to my training and ensure I did enough miles without overdoing it early on.
Post edited at 14:01
 NMN 15 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

I thought this blog was very interesting to show the training stats to smash 20 hours for BG.

https://climberandrunner.wordpress.com/category/bg20/

I wonder how much the stats need diluting for a 23 hour round?
 petestack 15 Feb 2016
In reply to NMN:

> I wonder how much the stats need diluting for a 23 hour round?

Probably not at all. It's not like everyone can just go faster if they train more... for most folk, you're going to put in the training, give it what you've got and take what you get!

 2ba 15 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Hi Dave, there is loads of good advice already from learned folk. The Glencoe Skyline was great and is a good base. Think of doing it... twice....maybe!

I didn't quite make in under 24hrs unfortunately despite great support. Lots of reasons summed up in a wee report here:
http://carnethy.com/ci_ultra.htm

There is also a report on Jon Ascroft's PB on this link, but unfortunately not his RR record which is elsewhere. I trained up to about 75 miles p/w, all off road and in the hills. High ascents will help. Recce all the route really helps your head on the day. At the end my brain was mush and was glad of encouraging support from great folk. I pre-ran all sections and ensured I did the dark section in the dark and also in bad weather to be clear on the route.
I did Tranters and the Cateran trail before in a good times. After the Cateran, I thought, all I have to do is an extra 6km of ascent.... but it wasn't so straight forward as my report describes.

Jasmin Paris and Konrad Rawlick just did a winter BG in 22.28. Look out for them/her this year...

Good luck and maybe see you out there.
 petestack 15 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

> In reply to Dave Kerr:

>> Ultimately though I'd be happy with 23:59!

> Unless you're chasing records, there's really only one time that matters, Dave! And it was mainly the thought of having to do it all again that kept me going when I was struggling towards to the end and knew how tight it was getting!

Two more things (neither directly connected with the training)...

1. The flip side of a 'marginal' completion is permanent recording as one of the slowest on the list, and I've just had to live (not without regrets!) with most listed finishers being faster than me. But then again, better runners are listed slower than my 23:50 (not least Charlie himself!) and I'm not attacking another complete round in some vain hope of moving up a few 'places'!

2. You just don't need the massive support teams many seem to assume required, and in some ways streamlined is better. We had two completing runners (one of whom technically started as support) with no further support on an anticlockwise round till nearly Loch Treig, then two further runners and just one low-level support. When my co-completer returned for his sub-24 winter record, he went completely alone.
OP DaveHK 15 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

I'm planning to run solo and have support meet me with food etc at Loch Treig and Luibeilt-ish.
 dmhigg 15 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

I did a solo run off regular normalish mountain runs, between 3 and 5 hours for the summer before (I went right at the end of August). The hard bit for me was staying positive and concentrating. Carrying extra food was tiring and I lost about an hour overnight after a good first day. I was hallucinating from the start of the Mamores to the end, and I was very grateful for the sections I'd recced. I should have done more. It's a great day out and if you can get the right conditions it's very doable.
I got lost in the forest on the descent, as well. The forestry had put up a diversion! I was faster than Pete, though....just.
 petestack 15 Feb 2016
In reply to dmhigg:

> I was faster than Pete, though....just.

Thought you were one minute slower?

 dmhigg 16 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

Oops. My apologies: 23.51.

I was nearly as quick as Pete, though!
 petestack 16 Feb 2016
In reply to dmhigg:

I initially thought I'd done a 23:49 because that's what my watch said, but when double-checked against our starting time it became 23:50 (can't remember why) so that's what got reported. And you can't imagine (well, maybe/probably/surely you can!) how 'disappointed' I was to lose that minute with 23:49 psychologically feeling so much better than 23:5x in taking me out of that sub-10-minute margin. But in the end we both did it, in near as damn it the same time, and, while we might have gone faster, we might also not have had it at all. Like I said above, there's really only one time that matters unless you're chasing records, and we're not otherwise competing against each other!
1
 dmhigg 17 Feb 2016
In reply to petestack:

I would have gone faster....but I couldn't. I'm just pleased that I'm the fastest finisher with "bottom" in their surname. I think.
OP DaveHK 10 Apr 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

Just did some maths on my first recce of the route and it's made me realise the importance of basing training on height gain rather than distance.

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