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Have you ever wondered how to get more enjoyment out of climbing, perhaps a coaching session could help you with that elusive route or boulder problem, make you more confident on your next trad lead or give you the best way to get the most out of an indoor session?
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In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
I thought this was going to be an epic article explaining the virtues of coaching.
Turns out it's just an ad for TCCG
I thought this was going to be an epic article explaining the virtues of coaching.
Turns out it's just an ad for TCCG
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In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
I thought this was a press release?
If it genuinely was, and you guys didn't take any money for publishing it, then TCCG got a load of free advertising. If you did accept money for publishing, then nothing wrong with that, but surely it should be flagged as an ad?
I'm not complaining about ads, just about being tricked into reading them.
I thought this was a press release?
If it genuinely was, and you guys didn't take any money for publishing it, then TCCG got a load of free advertising. If you did accept money for publishing, then nothing wrong with that, but surely it should be flagged as an ad?
I'm not complaining about ads, just about being tricked into reading them.
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In reply to Clinger:
All Press Releases that are published on site are very much 'paid for' advertising and we try to make the distinction clear by putting 'Press Release' in the title (i.e. it's written/published by the brand/wall/manufacturer as opposed to UKC), but the fact the piece in question clearly states it was added by Manchester Climbing Centre does make it quite obvious - at least in my eyes - that it's a promotion of their own services.
In terms of further distinctions between editorial and advertorial, if you go to the News Page there is a definite line between the two (as it isn't a line we wish to blur due to reactions such as this) through the use separate columns and colour coding for each: yellow for the editorial, blue for the advertorial. This colour coding carries over to the Forums too.
That said, I am aware that this SHOULD be obvious to me as I manage the advertising on site. Hopefully that answers your questions and allays your fears.
All Press Releases that are published on site are very much 'paid for' advertising and we try to make the distinction clear by putting 'Press Release' in the title (i.e. it's written/published by the brand/wall/manufacturer as opposed to UKC), but the fact the piece in question clearly states it was added by Manchester Climbing Centre does make it quite obvious - at least in my eyes - that it's a promotion of their own services.
In terms of further distinctions between editorial and advertorial, if you go to the News Page there is a definite line between the two (as it isn't a line we wish to blur due to reactions such as this) through the use separate columns and colour coding for each: yellow for the editorial, blue for the advertorial. This colour coding carries over to the Forums too.
That said, I am aware that this SHOULD be obvious to me as I manage the advertising on site. Hopefully that answers your questions and allays your fears.
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In reply to Clinger:
Doesn't it say 'PRESS RELEASE' in the title, in big shouty capital letters? I thought that was a bit of a giveaway, personally.
> If you did accept money for publishing, then nothing wrong with that, but surely it should be flagged as an ad?
Doesn't it say 'PRESS RELEASE' in the title, in big shouty capital letters? I thought that was a bit of a giveaway, personally.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
'Press release' does not equal advertisement. Press releases can be from all sorts of places, like a not for profit group for example.
As for the heading 'not just for the elite' I can't help thinking that Adam Ondra didn't bother with a coach until after he'd reached 9b+. I would think that if you could afford coaching you'd be much better off either buying a climbing wall membership or taking an extended climbing trip abroad somewhere.
'Press release' does not equal advertisement. Press releases can be from all sorts of places, like a not for profit group for example.
As for the heading 'not just for the elite' I can't help thinking that Adam Ondra didn't bother with a coach until after he'd reached 9b+. I would think that if you could afford coaching you'd be much better off either buying a climbing wall membership or taking an extended climbing trip abroad somewhere.
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In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
I see. Sounds like my idea of what constitutes a reasonable press release is at odds with UKC's.
No harm done, and at least I know what to expect now - Thanks for clarifying.
I see. Sounds like my idea of what constitutes a reasonable press release is at odds with UKC's.
No harm done, and at least I know what to expect now - Thanks for clarifying.
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In reply to stp:
As a sport, climbing is 20 yrs behind every other sport.
Every other sport you can imagine has a form of coaching involved, be it 5 yr olds at football on a Saturday morning through to people swimming for the county.
Coaching and Instruction are not the same thing. Tennis is a perfect example. The teaching aspect is quite simple - hit the ball over the net so that it lands in the white lined box. You then get taught the rules for where and when you can hit it. The coaching bit is stopping you hitting the ball out of the park each time.
Climbing is similar. I can teach you the Hard skills of building a belay and how to lead but the soft skills of actual climbing is coaching. A good coach will make you a better climber, help you use your weekly wall session to much better use - ever wonder why you seem to get better really quick and then plateau out at the same level. A coach will help you there.
As a sport, climbing is 20 yrs behind every other sport.
Every other sport you can imagine has a form of coaching involved, be it 5 yr olds at football on a Saturday morning through to people swimming for the county.
Coaching and Instruction are not the same thing. Tennis is a perfect example. The teaching aspect is quite simple - hit the ball over the net so that it lands in the white lined box. You then get taught the rules for where and when you can hit it. The coaching bit is stopping you hitting the ball out of the park each time.
Climbing is similar. I can teach you the Hard skills of building a belay and how to lead but the soft skills of actual climbing is coaching. A good coach will make you a better climber, help you use your weekly wall session to much better use - ever wonder why you seem to get better really quick and then plateau out at the same level. A coach will help you there.
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In reply to Clinger:
Yeah, I'd expect a press release to be about something that's at least sort-of newsworthy if you squint a bit. Not _just_ "why not use this service that we provide", which is a straight up advert. And the headline came across as more advertorial - like it was going to present some sort of interesting argument to back up it's assertion, something that it didn't really deliver on.
On the other hand, as usual: a) it's essentially free content and b) I've wasted more time writing this reply than I did reading the advert, so I'm not in a position to complain much.
Yeah, I'd expect a press release to be about something that's at least sort-of newsworthy if you squint a bit. Not _just_ "why not use this service that we provide", which is a straight up advert. And the headline came across as more advertorial - like it was going to present some sort of interesting argument to back up it's assertion, something that it didn't really deliver on.
On the other hand, as usual: a) it's essentially free content and b) I've wasted more time writing this reply than I did reading the advert, so I'm not in a position to complain much.
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In reply to Jim Walton:
I am not against coaching per se. Andy Murray is a prime example who used coaching to his advantage to become one of the greatest tennis players. It obviously cost him £1000s of pounds but he will have made it all back and much more from winnings and sponsorship etc.
It's also clearly very beneficial for many climbers. Janja Garnbret and Shauna Coxey spring to mind but there are many more.
But I think for the average climber its surely the least cost effective way to improve. Better to buy weights, a fingerboard, some climbing books, rings, and just climb more often. Of course if money is no object then why not. Great. But most climbers don't have that much money for obvious reasons so I think its a case of where you get most bang for your buck.
Yeah its interesting. Certainly in this country at least. Many, if not most, climbers don't even train and don't seem interested or bothered. I suppose climbing is pretty different from other sports. Few people compete so there is no urgency to improve, no deadline to aim for.
I am not against coaching per se. Andy Murray is a prime example who used coaching to his advantage to become one of the greatest tennis players. It obviously cost him £1000s of pounds but he will have made it all back and much more from winnings and sponsorship etc.
It's also clearly very beneficial for many climbers. Janja Garnbret and Shauna Coxey spring to mind but there are many more.
But I think for the average climber its surely the least cost effective way to improve. Better to buy weights, a fingerboard, some climbing books, rings, and just climb more often. Of course if money is no object then why not. Great. But most climbers don't have that much money for obvious reasons so I think its a case of where you get most bang for your buck.
> As a sport, climbing is 20 yrs behind every other sport.
Yeah its interesting. Certainly in this country at least. Many, if not most, climbers don't even train and don't seem interested or bothered. I suppose climbing is pretty different from other sports. Few people compete so there is no urgency to improve, no deadline to aim for.
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In reply to stp:
Many climbers don't see climbing as a 'sport'.
> Many, if not most, climbers don't even train and don't seem interested or bothered. I suppose climbing is pretty different from other sports. Few people compete so there is no urgency to improve, no deadline to aim for.
Many climbers don't see climbing as a 'sport'.
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
I agree.
Also, there's a lot to be said for just going out there and winging it!
> Many climbers don't see climbing as a 'sport'.
I agree.
Also, there's a lot to be said for just going out there and winging it!
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In reply to RyanOsborne:
Agreed.
On the other hand, if you do want to improve your performance as quickly as possible then I'm not sure what's so special about climbing (as against almost every other practical skill) that getting someone more skilled and experienced than you to give you personal advice and feedback isn't a good way to improve at it.
> Many climbers don't see climbing as a 'sport'.
Agreed.
On the other hand, if you do want to improve your performance as quickly as possible then I'm not sure what's so special about climbing (as against almost every other practical skill) that getting someone more skilled and experienced than you to give you personal advice and feedback isn't a good way to improve at it.
Post edited at 16:35
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In reply to stp:
Hi there, Difficult one this. An average evening in the Foundry or Works has a lot of people upping their game which looks suspiciously like training. I'm not sure that competing is the only factor giving an urgency to improve. It just opens up doors to so many more exciting routes.
What proportion of people do you think aren't bothered?
Hi there, Difficult one this. An average evening in the Foundry or Works has a lot of people upping their game which looks suspiciously like training. I'm not sure that competing is the only factor giving an urgency to improve. It just opens up doors to so many more exciting routes.
What proportion of people do you think aren't bothered?
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In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Just to point out that that does not make the distinction clear. A ``press release'' is indeed written by a third party, but it is not paid for; if it is paid for then the word is ``advert''.
Not that I care much, but I'd have thought it was in your interests to keep this distinction clear.
> ... we try to make the distinction clear by putting 'Press Release' in the title ...
Just to point out that that does not make the distinction clear. A ``press release'' is indeed written by a third party, but it is not paid for; if it is paid for then the word is ``advert''.
Not that I care much, but I'd have thought it was in your interests to keep this distinction clear.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Hi Paul,
There's an interesting quote in a recent interview on Training Beta (with Matt Lloyd). He says something like: training isn't turning up at a wall, ticking off a few routes, chatting with your mates in between tries and getting back on when you feel like it. I thought that a very pertinent point and it seems like this is what I'd say around 90% of climbers I see at walls are doing. To be clear there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (and I do a lot of this too). But the point is it's not training. As Matt Lloyd said you never see people training for other sports by just turning up and playing a game of football or a match of tennis.
Dave Macleod makes a similar point in 9 out 10 Climbers. He makes the distinction between performance (when you actually want to get up something) and training which might be doing drills.
I think the majority of UK climbers use indoor facilities exactly the same way as they use outdoor crags. For the pleasure of climbing, for enjoyment and fun. Not for training.
In the context of coaching I think there's little point for someone who hasn't trained on a regular basis for a good while first to hire a coach. Its like they're hoping to find some shortcut to success without putting the effort in. But of course climbing doesn't work like that. I've heard of coaches taking on people who only climb 6b indoors, feeling a little embarrassed to take the money. 6b, indoors these days is really no more than advanced beginner level, something most people could climb within a few months if they just climb regularly. One should be able to progress way past there without the need for a coach.
Hi Paul,
There's an interesting quote in a recent interview on Training Beta (with Matt Lloyd). He says something like: training isn't turning up at a wall, ticking off a few routes, chatting with your mates in between tries and getting back on when you feel like it. I thought that a very pertinent point and it seems like this is what I'd say around 90% of climbers I see at walls are doing. To be clear there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (and I do a lot of this too). But the point is it's not training. As Matt Lloyd said you never see people training for other sports by just turning up and playing a game of football or a match of tennis.
Dave Macleod makes a similar point in 9 out 10 Climbers. He makes the distinction between performance (when you actually want to get up something) and training which might be doing drills.
I think the majority of UK climbers use indoor facilities exactly the same way as they use outdoor crags. For the pleasure of climbing, for enjoyment and fun. Not for training.
In the context of coaching I think there's little point for someone who hasn't trained on a regular basis for a good while first to hire a coach. Its like they're hoping to find some shortcut to success without putting the effort in. But of course climbing doesn't work like that. I've heard of coaches taking on people who only climb 6b indoors, feeling a little embarrassed to take the money. 6b, indoors these days is really no more than advanced beginner level, something most people could climb within a few months if they just climb regularly. One should be able to progress way past there without the need for a coach.
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In reply to stp:
I agree with much of that but ...
If I were to join a good running club I might expect to benefit from some coaching, albeit probably in a group format, even if I was hardly past beginner level. It could save me time, effort and potential injury in trying to work out myself what training to do. I don't see any big difference in climbing. There would be nothing to be embarrassed about for either climber or coach.
I agree with much of that but ...
If I were to join a good running club I might expect to benefit from some coaching, albeit probably in a group format, even if I was hardly past beginner level. It could save me time, effort and potential injury in trying to work out myself what training to do. I don't see any big difference in climbing. There would be nothing to be embarrassed about for either climber or coach.
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In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
There really is a distinction between rocking up at the wall and training. I cross train in cycling (race XC) and martial arts (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). On the bike most of my time is spent in certain HR/power zones and cadences, drilling techniques and practicing skill. Sunday morning rides are pure fun and are very different to my training sessions. Each BJJ class includes conditioning drills, technique drills, specific sparring, learning new techniques and putting it into practice (full sparring). Tournaments are putting it all together. Open mat is practice and fun and is very different to the regular classes.
Climbing is still a skill to be learned and requires physical and mental attributes to be improved upon for continued progress toward one's goals but it really is down to the individual to decide what they want -- i.e. if climbing is an activity or a sport to them. Most people's idea of climbing training is really just mucking around with mates having fun, which is fine of course but it's not training (or specific practice).
The downside of training is that it really is repetitive by nature and a lot of people get bored with repetitive practice and decide that actually they just want to have fun instead and be more varied, which again is fine but progress will be different.
A good climbing coach will help practitioners gain valuable insight into their weaknesses and help make the learning process more efficient. Not only this but a good coach will also keep their 'student' motivated by helping set realistic goals and keep them moving towards them. If someone has specific goals in their climbing then there is nothing wrong with hiring a coach to help work towards those goals no matter what grade they are climbing at. People are starting to realise this and climbing levels are improving but there's a long way to go before it catches up with other sports.
Then there is the good old British mentality of training being 'so un-cool'.
There really is a distinction between rocking up at the wall and training. I cross train in cycling (race XC) and martial arts (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). On the bike most of my time is spent in certain HR/power zones and cadences, drilling techniques and practicing skill. Sunday morning rides are pure fun and are very different to my training sessions. Each BJJ class includes conditioning drills, technique drills, specific sparring, learning new techniques and putting it into practice (full sparring). Tournaments are putting it all together. Open mat is practice and fun and is very different to the regular classes.
Climbing is still a skill to be learned and requires physical and mental attributes to be improved upon for continued progress toward one's goals but it really is down to the individual to decide what they want -- i.e. if climbing is an activity or a sport to them. Most people's idea of climbing training is really just mucking around with mates having fun, which is fine of course but it's not training (or specific practice).
The downside of training is that it really is repetitive by nature and a lot of people get bored with repetitive practice and decide that actually they just want to have fun instead and be more varied, which again is fine but progress will be different.
A good climbing coach will help practitioners gain valuable insight into their weaknesses and help make the learning process more efficient. Not only this but a good coach will also keep their 'student' motivated by helping set realistic goals and keep them moving towards them. If someone has specific goals in their climbing then there is nothing wrong with hiring a coach to help work towards those goals no matter what grade they are climbing at. People are starting to realise this and climbing levels are improving but there's a long way to go before it catches up with other sports.
Then there is the good old British mentality of training being 'so un-cool'.
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In reply to stp:
It was 9/10 Climbers which really changed my approach to lead climbing. I guess what you're saying is that including structure to activities defines training. I was definitely doing that with bouldering, Beastmaker sessions etc. It wasn't until reading Dave Mac's book that I realised I was using the indoor lead walls as indoor crags. It took a long time to get round to reading the book as the style of writing wasn't exactly exciting. However the content is excellent. I'm doing sessions focusing on my weaknesses, deliberately falling, climbing to failure etc etc and have seen real progress.
I'd class myself as a punter, but have got a lot out of a couple of coaching sessions, one with Ben Bransby (in addition to helpful suggestions from Big Ron), so I think benefits are there irrespective of grade.
It was 9/10 Climbers which really changed my approach to lead climbing. I guess what you're saying is that including structure to activities defines training. I was definitely doing that with bouldering, Beastmaker sessions etc. It wasn't until reading Dave Mac's book that I realised I was using the indoor lead walls as indoor crags. It took a long time to get round to reading the book as the style of writing wasn't exactly exciting. However the content is excellent. I'm doing sessions focusing on my weaknesses, deliberately falling, climbing to failure etc etc and have seen real progress.
I'd class myself as a punter, but have got a lot out of a couple of coaching sessions, one with Ben Bransby (in addition to helpful suggestions from Big Ron), so I think benefits are there irrespective of grade.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Yes that's part of it. But I think the intent is different too. In just climbing you're always trying to conserve energy. In training its the opposite, you're deliberately trying to exhaust yourself as quickly as possible.
> I guess what you're saying is that including structure to activities defines training.
Yes that's part of it. But I think the intent is different too. In just climbing you're always trying to conserve energy. In training its the opposite, you're deliberately trying to exhaust yourself as quickly as possible.
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In reply to stevemarkperry:
I think that's a good way of putting it. But when you start of climbing you don't really have specific goals, you're still learning what climbing is all about. The key word for me is 'help'.
There was a great example on another thread where someone said they were trying a route but couldn't finish the boulder problem finish and assumed they just needed more finger strength. They hired a coach and it turned out they engaging their core at the right moment or activating one of their glutes and this observation was the key to doing the route. This seems a very useful example of top coaching in action. It was for a very experienced climber on something like a grade 8 route.
But for inexperienced climbers such information would be overkill. At a certain level you're still trying to work out how to move over rock, master different techniques, mantleshelves, layaway moves, climb efficiently, move smoothly, staying cool on runouts etc.
One top climber I spoke to said he didn't think climbers should even tell other lesser experienced climbers how to do the moves the way they so often do. You know where one person is climbing and the other is constantly yelling up: left foot here, right hand up etc. A big part of the challenge of climbing, and the reward, is working for oneself how solve a particular problem. If you had someone do this in a chess game and the student just moved the pieces they wouldn't really be playing at all. So I think the process of working things out is a big part of climbing and to have someone else do that for you is to take something away.
The process of problem solving for oneself will make you a better climber, more confident and more empowered. And I think that extends away from the crag too, say in learning how to train to etc.
I think it's easy and quite common to be overly focused on getting to the top when really it's the process of how we get there that's the most important thing.
> If someone has specific goals in their climbing then there is nothing wrong with hiring a coach to help work towards those goals no matter what grade they are climbing at.
I think that's a good way of putting it. But when you start of climbing you don't really have specific goals, you're still learning what climbing is all about. The key word for me is 'help'.
There was a great example on another thread where someone said they were trying a route but couldn't finish the boulder problem finish and assumed they just needed more finger strength. They hired a coach and it turned out they engaging their core at the right moment or activating one of their glutes and this observation was the key to doing the route. This seems a very useful example of top coaching in action. It was for a very experienced climber on something like a grade 8 route.
But for inexperienced climbers such information would be overkill. At a certain level you're still trying to work out how to move over rock, master different techniques, mantleshelves, layaway moves, climb efficiently, move smoothly, staying cool on runouts etc.
One top climber I spoke to said he didn't think climbers should even tell other lesser experienced climbers how to do the moves the way they so often do. You know where one person is climbing and the other is constantly yelling up: left foot here, right hand up etc. A big part of the challenge of climbing, and the reward, is working for oneself how solve a particular problem. If you had someone do this in a chess game and the student just moved the pieces they wouldn't really be playing at all. So I think the process of working things out is a big part of climbing and to have someone else do that for you is to take something away.
The process of problem solving for oneself will make you a better climber, more confident and more empowered. And I think that extends away from the crag too, say in learning how to train to etc.
I think it's easy and quite common to be overly focused on getting to the top when really it's the process of how we get there that's the most important thing.
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In reply to Removed User:
Change the thread title to
ADVERTISEMENT: Climbing Coaching is not Just for the Elite!
& all will be fine.
Change the thread title to
ADVERTISEMENT: Climbing Coaching is not Just for the Elite!
& all will be fine.
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In reply to stp:
It would yes but then the coach would be providing other useful information which would help the climber with what you listed.
With regards to climbing I've really enjoyed learning how to train and over the years I've got so much from that which I can apply to other sports. I've quizzed coaches here and there but most of my knowledge has come from personal experience. This is perhaps where climbing differs from other sports/activities such as martial arts where you are learning a very specific set of skills and methods that need to be done correctly to be effective. Or does it?
This 100%.
> But for inexperienced climbers such information would be overkill...
It would yes but then the coach would be providing other useful information which would help the climber with what you listed.
> The process of problem solving for oneself will make you a better climber, more confident and more empowered. And I think that extends away from the crag too, say in learning how to train to etc.
With regards to climbing I've really enjoyed learning how to train and over the years I've got so much from that which I can apply to other sports. I've quizzed coaches here and there but most of my knowledge has come from personal experience. This is perhaps where climbing differs from other sports/activities such as martial arts where you are learning a very specific set of skills and methods that need to be done correctly to be effective. Or does it?
> I think it's easy and quite common to be overly focused on getting to the top when really it's the process of how we get there that's the most important thing.
This 100%.
In reply to stp:
*Disclaimer, bit of a rant - not really all aimed at you stp!
When I first read that I just felt disheartened, climbing f6b indoors after 3 years + really hard slog. Yeah, I'm a punter, as puntery as a punter can puntabley get - but, and it's a big but, I work hard with what I have and I'd say that I do all right for a punter. If I heard a coach saying they felt embarrassed taking the money I'd just figure they were up themselves, or 'blame the client' a bit like them that blame the route setter.
Unless somebody is setting out to climb for a living, seeking sponsorship, bet the farm on a bouldering league or emotionally too unstable to cope unless they are awesome - then surely it just boils down to whether they like coaching? If it's enjoyable and they haven't stolen Aunt Mabel's pension to fund it, all good.
For most of us in punterville, even the half that do really care and want to get better, part of the challenge is to try different things to see what offers results, what suits and what's FUN. As a know nowt I have figured only one ultimate truth in regard to advice from them non punters and that's that there's no consensus.
Even if someone spent years researching how to polish punters up (like why would they?), who's going to subdivide for gender, age, time available, and arm length? I suspect, strongly suspect, that those who have a natural ability to visualise what someone else has misunderstood, what underlies mistakes, people able to focus on other individuals - and I mean focus, have cared enough to further that ability AND have enough climbing knowledge to add something, they will always have lots to offer till the point one of the above ceases to be the case. Those less able to truly get into someone else's climbing head will either acknowledge that or blame someone/something else.
The beautiful thing about climbing is that so much coaching from cracking climbers who tick every box is given freely anyway.
*Disclaimer, bit of a rant - not really all aimed at you stp!
> In the context of coaching I think there's little point for someone who hasn't trained on a regular basis for a good while first to hire a coach. Its like they're hoping to find some shortcut to success without putting the effort in. But of course climbing doesn't work like that. I've heard of coaches taking on people who only climb 6b indoors, feeling a little embarrassed to take the money. 6b, indoors these days is really no more than advanced beginner level, something most people could climb within a few months if they just climb regularly. One should be able to progress way past there without the need for a coach.
When I first read that I just felt disheartened, climbing f6b indoors after 3 years + really hard slog. Yeah, I'm a punter, as puntery as a punter can puntabley get - but, and it's a big but, I work hard with what I have and I'd say that I do all right for a punter. If I heard a coach saying they felt embarrassed taking the money I'd just figure they were up themselves, or 'blame the client' a bit like them that blame the route setter.
Unless somebody is setting out to climb for a living, seeking sponsorship, bet the farm on a bouldering league or emotionally too unstable to cope unless they are awesome - then surely it just boils down to whether they like coaching? If it's enjoyable and they haven't stolen Aunt Mabel's pension to fund it, all good.
For most of us in punterville, even the half that do really care and want to get better, part of the challenge is to try different things to see what offers results, what suits and what's FUN. As a know nowt I have figured only one ultimate truth in regard to advice from them non punters and that's that there's no consensus.
Even if someone spent years researching how to polish punters up (like why would they?), who's going to subdivide for gender, age, time available, and arm length? I suspect, strongly suspect, that those who have a natural ability to visualise what someone else has misunderstood, what underlies mistakes, people able to focus on other individuals - and I mean focus, have cared enough to further that ability AND have enough climbing knowledge to add something, they will always have lots to offer till the point one of the above ceases to be the case. Those less able to truly get into someone else's climbing head will either acknowledge that or blame someone/something else.
The beautiful thing about climbing is that so much coaching from cracking climbers who tick every box is given freely anyway.
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In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
A climbing coach said something to me a little while ago and it made a lot of sense when discussing my young daughter.
While she is young its a case of teaching her all these different techniques. Imagine a toolbox with loads of different tools rattling about inside. It is the instructors job to fill that toolbox as full as possible with them tools.
You can make yourself as fit and strong as you like. You can have the best shoes available. You can exercise your arms and grip like there is no tomorrow but if you havent got the tools then you are going to be restricting yourself big time.
The benefit may be higher for a young child who is like a sponge, unconciously soaking up these techniques without even knowing it, however they have still benefitted from the coach.
I come from a different sporting background to climbers and tbh i am very impressed with what is available. I get messages offering Team GB standard coaching quite regularly. I know a friends daughter who has sessions with Neil Grisham. Tbh there really is no excuse as most walls have
Student nights
Ladies Nights
Beginners nights
Team training
There are loads of different ways to access a bit of coaching over and above 'just climbing'
Oh and from what i have seen there are plenty of people who climb and regard it as competitive sport. Plenty who dont too but theres room for everyone
A climbing coach said something to me a little while ago and it made a lot of sense when discussing my young daughter.
While she is young its a case of teaching her all these different techniques. Imagine a toolbox with loads of different tools rattling about inside. It is the instructors job to fill that toolbox as full as possible with them tools.
You can make yourself as fit and strong as you like. You can have the best shoes available. You can exercise your arms and grip like there is no tomorrow but if you havent got the tools then you are going to be restricting yourself big time.
The benefit may be higher for a young child who is like a sponge, unconciously soaking up these techniques without even knowing it, however they have still benefitted from the coach.
I come from a different sporting background to climbers and tbh i am very impressed with what is available. I get messages offering Team GB standard coaching quite regularly. I know a friends daughter who has sessions with Neil Grisham. Tbh there really is no excuse as most walls have
Student nights
Ladies Nights
Beginners nights
Team training
There are loads of different ways to access a bit of coaching over and above 'just climbing'
Oh and from what i have seen there are plenty of people who climb and regard it as competitive sport. Plenty who dont too but theres room for everyone
Post edited at 13:06
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
I'm an old fart, set in old ways (51 years climbing), but I'm sure I could get some limited benefit from coaching to get me off my current plateau of f6b+ and E3. I peaked at F7a and E5 when I was a youth of 55 and it's been a little downhill since then. But and it's a big but it would be a waste of money unless I put into action the things that I KNOW I should do but am too undisciplined and lazy to do. I also have to acknowledge that at 67 there are some limitations. I KNOW that I should lose some weight, get more supple and get stronger and I think that essentially sums it up for many experienced climbers. I took up climbing in 1964/65 precisely because it was not overtly competitive and people did not really train for it. We just climbed and a little bit of me harks back to those halicon days which is another hurdle for me to overcome.
Al
I'm an old fart, set in old ways (51 years climbing), but I'm sure I could get some limited benefit from coaching to get me off my current plateau of f6b+ and E3. I peaked at F7a and E5 when I was a youth of 55 and it's been a little downhill since then. But and it's a big but it would be a waste of money unless I put into action the things that I KNOW I should do but am too undisciplined and lazy to do. I also have to acknowledge that at 67 there are some limitations. I KNOW that I should lose some weight, get more supple and get stronger and I think that essentially sums it up for many experienced climbers. I took up climbing in 1964/65 precisely because it was not overtly competitive and people did not really train for it. We just climbed and a little bit of me harks back to those halicon days which is another hurdle for me to overcome.
Al
2
In reply to stp:
Couldn't dissagree more. After several years of trad climbing, then getting into sports climbing for about 3 years we quickly reached a plateau. I was stuck at a lowly 5c, my wife at an even lower 5a. We went on a week's coaching holiday where we learnt a lot in a practical setting. At the end I was onsighting 6a and doing quick redpoints of 6b and my wife onsighting 5c and red-pointing 6a. The coaching cost of this was about same as buying a new rope and a couple of cams. I think it was great value.
If you are serious about improving climbing then getting a few half days coaching from one of the various wads that do this will be better value than wrecking your tendons on a new fingerboard.
> But I think for the average climber its surely the least cost effective way to improve. Better to buy weights, a fingerboard, some climbing books, rings, and just climb more often. Of course if money is no object then why not. Great. But most climbers don't have that much money for obvious reasons so I think its a case of where you get most bang for your buck.
Couldn't dissagree more. After several years of trad climbing, then getting into sports climbing for about 3 years we quickly reached a plateau. I was stuck at a lowly 5c, my wife at an even lower 5a. We went on a week's coaching holiday where we learnt a lot in a practical setting. At the end I was onsighting 6a and doing quick redpoints of 6b and my wife onsighting 5c and red-pointing 6a. The coaching cost of this was about same as buying a new rope and a couple of cams. I think it was great value.
If you are serious about improving climbing then getting a few half days coaching from one of the various wads that do this will be better value than wrecking your tendons on a new fingerboard.
5
In reply to Willi Crater:
I'm afraid I wouldn't consider an increase from 5c to 6a value for money but I do agree with your last paragraph.
Al
I'm afraid I wouldn't consider an increase from 5c to 6a value for money but I do agree with your last paragraph.
Al
2
In reply to GridNorth:
I see what you're saying, but don't look at it as grades, look at it as getting over a plateau. I'd consider it
good value to get me off a plateau regardless of what level that plateau was at.
Happilly, it seems like Willi Crater agrees, so all good.
> I'm afraid I wouldn't consider an increase from 5c to 6a value for money but I do agree with your last paragraph.
I see what you're saying, but don't look at it as grades, look at it as getting over a plateau. I'd consider it
good value to get me off a plateau regardless of what level that plateau was at.
Happilly, it seems like Willi Crater agrees, so all good.
1
In reply to Clinger:
Hmm. Last week my plateau was f6c. On Monday night it was f6b. Call it fatigue, biorhythms, being off form, not in the mood, discrepancies in grading. Call it what you want but an improvement of a single grade would not be enough to convince me that a coaching session had been worthwhile. As you say though if the recipient is satisfied it doesn't matter what I think.
Al
Hmm. Last week my plateau was f6c. On Monday night it was f6b. Call it fatigue, biorhythms, being off form, not in the mood, discrepancies in grading. Call it what you want but an improvement of a single grade would not be enough to convince me that a coaching session had been worthwhile. As you say though if the recipient is satisfied it doesn't matter what I think.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Coaching is not a method of improving grades imo. Its a method of building a better climber.
Coaching is not a method of improving grades imo. Its a method of building a better climber.
2
In reply to flopsicle:
This was not in any way intended to put down climbers of lower grades. I apologize if it came across like that. One of my best friends only occasionally climbs 6b and she's naturally pretty strong. It's more that to improve there are things that need to be done and if they're not done then no one is going to improve beyond a certain point. The most obvious that I see are: 1. not climbing/training regularly enough, 2. Not climbing/training with sufficient intensity and related 3. Fear of falling.
There are others and I think these are covered very well in Dave Macleod's book 9 out 10 climbers make the same mistakes.There is a very wide consensus on the ideas in this book and it is regularly praised on here and elsewhere. To me it makes far more sense to read through a book like that and figure out the mistakes and then, crucially, make changes in what one is doing before ever thinking about hiring a coach. The reason being that if you're not correcting those mistakes then a coach will probably tell you that's exactly what you need to do anyway. That's because these are the fundamentals, the basics on which to build. Sorting these out will take any climber up a very long ladder of progression. Another reason is that the price of the book is a fraction of the cost of a coaching session and it also contains far more information.
So in general I'm somewhat skeptical of the use of a coach for climbers below a certain point in their development. Though maybe some people who just need someone with authority to give them permission to try harder, to give them a bit more confidence perhaps? Another point that Dave Macleod makes is that climbing with the 'wrong' people can hold you back. I'm quite sure climbing with a coach won't do that.
This was not in any way intended to put down climbers of lower grades. I apologize if it came across like that. One of my best friends only occasionally climbs 6b and she's naturally pretty strong. It's more that to improve there are things that need to be done and if they're not done then no one is going to improve beyond a certain point. The most obvious that I see are: 1. not climbing/training regularly enough, 2. Not climbing/training with sufficient intensity and related 3. Fear of falling.
There are others and I think these are covered very well in Dave Macleod's book 9 out 10 climbers make the same mistakes.There is a very wide consensus on the ideas in this book and it is regularly praised on here and elsewhere. To me it makes far more sense to read through a book like that and figure out the mistakes and then, crucially, make changes in what one is doing before ever thinking about hiring a coach. The reason being that if you're not correcting those mistakes then a coach will probably tell you that's exactly what you need to do anyway. That's because these are the fundamentals, the basics on which to build. Sorting these out will take any climber up a very long ladder of progression. Another reason is that the price of the book is a fraction of the cost of a coaching session and it also contains far more information.
So in general I'm somewhat skeptical of the use of a coach for climbers below a certain point in their development. Though maybe some people who just need someone with authority to give them permission to try harder, to give them a bit more confidence perhaps? Another point that Dave Macleod makes is that climbing with the 'wrong' people can hold you back. I'm quite sure climbing with a coach won't do that.
In reply to GridNorth:
Yes, but I wasn't doing the 5c's on sight - I think the best I'd managed on sight at this point was around 5b - and not many of them. The things I learned in those few days have set me on a journey of improvement that I really didn't envisage as remotely possible at the time, especially given my age. Current project is 7c. Shame you don't this was value for money, but I do.
> I'm afraid I wouldn't consider an increase from 5c to 6a value for money but I do agree with your last paragraph.
> Al
Yes, but I wasn't doing the 5c's on sight - I think the best I'd managed on sight at this point was around 5b - and not many of them. The things I learned in those few days have set me on a journey of improvement that I really didn't envisage as remotely possible at the time, especially given my age. Current project is 7c. Shame you don't this was value for money, but I do.
2
In reply to Willi Crater:
I was speaking for myself as I would expect that level of progress to be achieved just by getting the mileage in but if it got you off your plateau and aspiring to greater things good for you. Don't let age be too big a barrier. I peaked at f7a when I was 55 but it's been downhill ever since, partly because I did not maintain the momentum. Good luck with your project.
Al
> Current project is 7c. Shame you don't this was value for money, but I do.
I was speaking for myself as I would expect that level of progress to be achieved just by getting the mileage in but if it got you off your plateau and aspiring to greater things good for you. Don't let age be too big a barrier. I peaked at f7a when I was 55 but it's been downhill ever since, partly because I did not maintain the momentum. Good luck with your project.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Cheers!
> I was speaking for myself as I would expect that level of progress to be achieved just by getting the mileage in but if it got you off your plateau and aspiring to greater things good for you. Don't let age be too big a barrier. I peaked at f7a when I was 55 but it's been downhill ever since, partly because I did not maintain the momentum. Good luck with your project.
> Al
Cheers!
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