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I found athis homemade bolt on the top of castle crack today along with three pitons that looked like they had been made with a piece of B&Q steel. It made me wonder what peoples opinions must be of them and they must be fairly mixed as they are clearly being used. So what do you all think about people making and using homemade bolts and pitons to protect routes throughout the uk?
Post edited at 18:06
In reply to RobBrooks:
Are you going to post some photo's
john
> I found athis homemade bolt on the top of castle crack today along with three pitons that looked like they had been made with a piece of B&Q steel.
Are you going to post some photo's
john
Post edited at 20:05
In reply to johnwright:
I didn't get any pictures of the pitons because of their peculiar location. Here is a link to the picture of the bolt as i couldnt find a way to upload any pictures via the mobile site . https://goo.gl/photos/AbCxosMcrwWvvLPt5
I didn't get any pictures of the pitons because of their peculiar location. Here is a link to the picture of the bolt as i couldnt find a way to upload any pictures via the mobile site . https://goo.gl/photos/AbCxosMcrwWvvLPt5
Post edited at 20:14
In reply to RobBrooks:
Old and risky.
> It made me wonder what peoples opinions must be of them and they must be fairly mixed as they are clearly being used.
Old and risky.
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In reply to RobBrooks:
If they are mounted correctly (unlike that) and look sturdy enough then I don't see the issue. Chances are they are much more tonk (for lack of a better word) and over engineered than actually shop bought anchors and if drilled in and mounted well I see no reason why something like that couldn't be as strong or maybe stronger than store bought bolt.
If they are mounted correctly (unlike that) and look sturdy enough then I don't see the issue. Chances are they are much more tonk (for lack of a better word) and over engineered than actually shop bought anchors and if drilled in and mounted well I see no reason why something like that couldn't be as strong or maybe stronger than store bought bolt.
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In reply to madmonky:
I totally agree with that. I made some bolt hangers years ago from angle iron. I finished them off with hammerite to protect from rust. I'm sure they were loads stronger than shop bought ones (particularly the old 8mm caving bolts that were generally used at the time.)
Also worth bearing in mind that the people making them are trusting their lives with them as much as anyone else. Then again there are of course some fairly clueless types about too. But I think putting a bolt into bad rock is probably a more likely and riskier mistake.
I totally agree with that. I made some bolt hangers years ago from angle iron. I finished them off with hammerite to protect from rust. I'm sure they were loads stronger than shop bought ones (particularly the old 8mm caving bolts that were generally used at the time.)
Also worth bearing in mind that the people making them are trusting their lives with them as much as anyone else. Then again there are of course some fairly clueless types about too. But I think putting a bolt into bad rock is probably a more likely and riskier mistake.
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In reply to stp:
[ I made some bolt hangers years ago from angle iron.]
This is not Angle, it looks as it is a folded [bent] peace of flat bar, and leads to the Question how was it folded hot cold ? and what has this done to the structure of the metal?
Of worry would be if it got flatland, and picked up repeatedly it would fail.
Unlike a formed Angle you will have no idea if, or how many timed it it has been formed/ re bent [work hardened steel]
What grade is the fixing bolt? has it a code on the head to hard = brittle.
Hoping someone will come and say who knows more than me
[ I made some bolt hangers years ago from angle iron.]
This is not Angle, it looks as it is a folded [bent] peace of flat bar, and leads to the Question how was it folded hot cold ? and what has this done to the structure of the metal?
Of worry would be if it got flatland, and picked up repeatedly it would fail.
Unlike a formed Angle you will have no idea if, or how many timed it it has been formed/ re bent [work hardened steel]
What grade is the fixing bolt? has it a code on the head to hard = brittle.
Hoping someone will come and say who knows more than me
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In reply to humptydumpty:
New and risky (it's galvanised MS and it's not rusty), it's a bit of unitstrut, look for sparky climbers.
> Old and risky.
New and risky (it's galvanised MS and it's not rusty), it's a bit of unitstrut, look for sparky climbers.
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In reply to Name Changed 34:
What would the point of a brittle bolt be?
> What grade is the fixing bolt? has it a code on the head to hard = brittle.
What would the point of a brittle bolt be?
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In reply to krikoman:
Ok please read as
> What grade is the fixing bolt? has it a code on the head to hard = brittle.
> What would the point of a brittle bolt be?
> What would the point of a brittle bolt be?
Ok please read as
> What grade is the fixing bolt? has it a code on the head to hard = TO brittle.
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In reply to Name Changed 34:
The code on the top gives the tensile strength of the bolt, it's not a measure of brittleness.
A high tensile bolt is not brittle, brittle bolts would snap when you tightened them up, negating there use.
High tensile bolts have a different mix of alloys in them to ordinary medium carbon steel bolts. It's the bolts heat treatment that gives it it's strength, if it was brittle then there's something wrong with the manufacturing process.
The higher the number the greater the tensile strength, it doesn't follow that they are more brittle, certainly not to where you wouldn't worry about it snapping while you are climbing on it ( a 5/8 piece of steel!!).
Corrosion and rusting is another matter.
The code on the top gives the tensile strength of the bolt, it's not a measure of brittleness.
A high tensile bolt is not brittle, brittle bolts would snap when you tightened them up, negating there use.
High tensile bolts have a different mix of alloys in them to ordinary medium carbon steel bolts. It's the bolts heat treatment that gives it it's strength, if it was brittle then there's something wrong with the manufacturing process.
The higher the number the greater the tensile strength, it doesn't follow that they are more brittle, certainly not to where you wouldn't worry about it snapping while you are climbing on it ( a 5/8 piece of steel!!).
Corrosion and rusting is another matter.
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to krikoman:
All I was questioning was the bolt its self and its suitability, yes I did assume hard meant brittle, it this case.
I do suspect that a bolt somewhere in the world of bolts could be to brittle, a shear bolt ?? but as I said Hoping someone will come and say who knows more than me.
if threaded rod would was in use how would that sit re safety
PS what the ell is a stretch bolt as in use to fix a cylinder head down
> The higher the number the greater the tensile strength, it doesn't follow that they are more brittle, certainly not to where you wouldn't worry about it snapping while you are climbing on it ( a 5/8 piece of steel!!).
All I was questioning was the bolt its self and its suitability, yes I did assume hard meant brittle, it this case.
I do suspect that a bolt somewhere in the world of bolts could be to brittle, a shear bolt ?? but as I said Hoping someone will come and say who knows more than me.
if threaded rod would was in use how would that sit re safety
PS what the ell is a stretch bolt as in use to fix a cylinder head down
In reply to Name Changed 34:
Yes they can become brittle in use, especially in contact with seawater.
A stretch bolt, is a bolt that stretches (funny that) it keeps the bolts under tension, even through hot and cold cycles, so they don't come loose. Like a massive internal spring washer only stronger. They are usually replaced if you ever have to undo them.
> All I was questioning was the bolt its self and its suitability, yes I did assume hard meant brittle, it this case.
Probably, the bolt looks suitable, though I'm guessing at the size > 12mm. How it's fixed and to what to would be more of a concern for me.> I do suspect that a bolt somewhere in the world of bolts could be to brittle, a shear bolt ?? but as I said Hoping someone will come and say who knows more than me.
Yes they can become brittle in use, especially in contact with seawater.
> if threaded rod would was in use how would that sit re safety
If I fitted it and was sure of it, then yes, if someone else did then probably not. I've hung of two strands of 3mm paracord ( not very far off the ground ) but it's possible, so 10mm screwed rod would be fine to climb on (top rope), but not to fall on.> PS what the ell is a stretch bolt as in use to fix a cylinder head down
A stretch bolt, is a bolt that stretches (funny that) it keeps the bolts under tension, even through hot and cold cycles, so they don't come loose. Like a massive internal spring washer only stronger. They are usually replaced if you ever have to undo them.
In reply to RobBrooks:
I would trust that more than regular threaded bolts. That will be an expanding fixing and knowing what we use them for in my trade I would be very trustful of it! As for the steel, it doesn't really matter if it was bent hot or cold (although it looks hot bent). The steel is pretty thick and unlike ally isn't going to fatigue from vibrations and unless you are falling 100 feet I don't think you are going to be bending that. It could do with the hole being countersunk a bit more to stop point pressure on the crab being used. Also the bolt should be in straight as that is putting huge amounts of uneven load on the head that shouldn't be there. But if that had been bolted in well and was a bit neater I would have no issue using it. At the end of the day once upon a time all bolts were home made to some extent so if it is what pioneered the sport then why should we suddenly not trust them? Yes sure so shoddy bolts maybe but if they are well made then why not?
I would trust that more than regular threaded bolts. That will be an expanding fixing and knowing what we use them for in my trade I would be very trustful of it! As for the steel, it doesn't really matter if it was bent hot or cold (although it looks hot bent). The steel is pretty thick and unlike ally isn't going to fatigue from vibrations and unless you are falling 100 feet I don't think you are going to be bending that. It could do with the hole being countersunk a bit more to stop point pressure on the crab being used. Also the bolt should be in straight as that is putting huge amounts of uneven load on the head that shouldn't be there. But if that had been bolted in well and was a bit neater I would have no issue using it. At the end of the day once upon a time all bolts were home made to some extent so if it is what pioneered the sport then why should we suddenly not trust them? Yes sure so shoddy bolts maybe but if they are well made then why not?
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In reply to RobBrooks:
looks like a piece of shyte,
that is, it looks like:
8mm heavy duty rawlplug, available from all your well known national DIY chain-stores.
zinc coated, with a bit of 4mm (possibly galved) plate that's been drilled n battered into shape with a hammer....
zinc coated isn't that great (not for this purpose) it'll not last that long before it starts to look rusty.
I'd be most concerned over the thickness of the metal that's left over either side of the drilled hole; and, this might depend on how it's clipped, that the hanger might bend / fatigue across this point.
would it hold my weight? probably yes (if it is what I think it is); would I take a whiper onto it? I'd rather not......
looks like a piece of shyte,
that is, it looks like:
8mm heavy duty rawlplug, available from all your well known national DIY chain-stores.
zinc coated, with a bit of 4mm (possibly galved) plate that's been drilled n battered into shape with a hammer....
zinc coated isn't that great (not for this purpose) it'll not last that long before it starts to look rusty.
I'd be most concerned over the thickness of the metal that's left over either side of the drilled hole; and, this might depend on how it's clipped, that the hanger might bend / fatigue across this point.
would it hold my weight? probably yes (if it is what I think it is); would I take a whiper onto it? I'd rather not......
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In reply to RobBrooks:
I highly doubt that is bolted in to a rawl plug. It's rock not plasterboard. And if it is then someone needs to be shot on sight.
I highly doubt that is bolted in to a rawl plug. It's rock not plasterboard. And if it is then someone needs to be shot on sight.
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In reply to madmonky:
rawlplug is a brand name, they make many products....
http://www.diy.com/departments/rawlplug-metal-anchor-bolt-pack-of-2/254711_...
rawlplug is a brand name, they make many products....
http://www.diy.com/departments/rawlplug-metal-anchor-bolt-pack-of-2/254711_...
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In reply to madmonky:
What a bizarre post. You say you'd trust it then point out all the faults with it then say if it was done better you'd trust it, all of which is based on guess work about the materials and methods employed. Let me offer you a simple rule of thumb: if you know nothing about the provenance of an anchor treat it with suspicion.
> I would trust that more than regular threaded bolts. That will be an expanding fixing and knowing what we use them for in my trade I would be very trustful of it! As for the steel, it doesn't really matter if it was bent hot or cold (although it looks hot bent). The steel is pretty thick and unlike ally isn't going to fatigue from vibrations and unless you are falling 100 feet I don't think you are going to be bending that. It could do with the hole being countersunk a bit more to stop point pressure on the crab being used. Also the bolt should be in straight as that is putting huge amounts of uneven load on the head that shouldn't be there. But if that had been bolted in well and was a bit neater I would have no issue using it. At the end of the day once upon a time all bolts were home made to some extent so if it is what pioneered the sport then why should we suddenly not trust them? Yes sure so shoddy bolts maybe but if they are well made then why not?
What a bizarre post. You say you'd trust it then point out all the faults with it then say if it was done better you'd trust it, all of which is based on guess work about the materials and methods employed. Let me offer you a simple rule of thumb: if you know nothing about the provenance of an anchor treat it with suspicion.
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In reply to daWalt:
Ahh my bad.
I never said they were only for plasterboard, I was insinuating no one would be dumb enough to use a plastic plug, didn't realise as a company they made other fixings.
Ahh my bad.
I never said they were only for plasterboard, I was insinuating no one would be dumb enough to use a plastic plug, didn't realise as a company they made other fixings.
In reply to krikoman:
> A stretch bolt, is a bolt that stretches (funny that) it keeps the bolts under tension, even through hot and cold cycles, so they don't come loose. Like a massive internal spring washer only stronger. They are usually replaced if you ever have to undo them.
hot and cold that makes sense, the only time i came across was a cylinder head, the Gasket kit had them in
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In reply to Fredt:
is that like the one at Running hill ?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=78166
is that like the one at Running hill ?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=78166
Post edited at 10:20
In reply to RobBrooks:
If they're well made from suitable materials and sensibly installed I have no problem with people making their own bolts, it's not rocket science. I've seen good and bad examples, some add character, some leave a mess, some are an accident waiting to happen, some much better than they appear on closer inspection.
jk
> So what do you all think about people making and using homemade bolts and pitons to protect routes throughout the uk?
If they're well made from suitable materials and sensibly installed I have no problem with people making their own bolts, it's not rocket science. I've seen good and bad examples, some add character, some leave a mess, some are an accident waiting to happen, some much better than they appear on closer inspection.
jk
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In reply to RobBrooks:
That's a fairly standard thunderbolt and quite useful for fixing things like fence posts to brick or concrete etc. The thread bites really well and because it's not getting much of an upward pull in that position, it should be fine. A side pull on that bolt should be pretty bomber if it's well placed in good rock. I'm not too keen on that hanger though but at least you have the pitons as backup.
That's a fairly standard thunderbolt and quite useful for fixing things like fence posts to brick or concrete etc. The thread bites really well and because it's not getting much of an upward pull in that position, it should be fine. A side pull on that bolt should be pretty bomber if it's well placed in good rock. I'm not too keen on that hanger though but at least you have the pitons as backup.
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In reply to Removed Usercanadian tim:
The rock looks type of Gritty it may have a hard pebble just inside the hole that takes the ''meet'' off the teeth leaving little contact deeper within the hole. it will be prone to rust within the hole coatings having been striped when placed [would not what a ice screw that had no bite]
I know expansion bolts rust to, at least you can torque it down and it has a good lump of hold at the bottom
but at least you have the pitons as backup.
just pick some up of flee day £2.00 each my pack are lost arrows new Glog S,hand and Haitt new!!
> That's a fairly standard thunderbolt
If it is, and by thunderbolt you mean one with fine threads that cut on insertion, then I will say its anything but good.The rock looks type of Gritty it may have a hard pebble just inside the hole that takes the ''meet'' off the teeth leaving little contact deeper within the hole. it will be prone to rust within the hole coatings having been striped when placed [would not what a ice screw that had no bite]
I know expansion bolts rust to, at least you can torque it down and it has a good lump of hold at the bottom
but at least you have the pitons as backup.
just pick some up of flee day £2.00 each my pack are lost arrows new Glog S,hand and Haitt new!!
Post edited at 15:47
just as a wee reminder:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bolt-failures-on-north-wales-limestone
I don't, personally, don't think this is a thunderbolt; there's a washer on this thing.
I'm sure thunderbolts work fine for fixings to concrete block, brick n the like. But "most" rock tends to be a lot harder than concrete, esp standard concrete blocks for walling.
you can't just screw these things into rock; so if you're going to drill a hole you'd better just use a decent expansion bolt or resin type fixing....
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In reply to daWalt:
I agree with not taking a whipper on it but where i found it (at the top of castle crack) I believe it is more of an abseiling bolt so you can clean the route once youve topped out, then walk around and retrieve the gear you placed on the bolt and pitons before someone nabs it.
I agree with not taking a whipper on it but where i found it (at the top of castle crack) I believe it is more of an abseiling bolt so you can clean the route once youve topped out, then walk around and retrieve the gear you placed on the bolt and pitons before someone nabs it.
In reply to RobBrooks:
Here is some more info, it is in gritstone, it defiantly isn't a thunderbolt because there is a washer and it's pretty rare to see people use thunderbolts with washers. The only marking on top of the bolt itself is '4.8' and that's it. I think the main purpose of this bolt and pitons in close proximity is for abseiling down the route to clean up placed gear as there isn't very many bomber placements for gear at the top of the route.
Here is some more info, it is in gritstone, it defiantly isn't a thunderbolt because there is a washer and it's pretty rare to see people use thunderbolts with washers. The only marking on top of the bolt itself is '4.8' and that's it. I think the main purpose of this bolt and pitons in close proximity is for abseiling down the route to clean up placed gear as there isn't very many bomber placements for gear at the top of the route.
In reply to RobBrooks:
Guessing this is a sleeve bolt
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hex-Bolt-Sleeve-Anchor-Pack/dp/B00OBFWEWW/ref=sr_1_...
Scary hanger though!!
316 Stainless Steel from now on please have a look at the UIAA report:
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/Safety/Anchors/UIAA-WARNING-ABOUT-CLIMBI...
Glue in's are the way forward : )
Guessing this is a sleeve bolt
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hex-Bolt-Sleeve-Anchor-Pack/dp/B00OBFWEWW/ref=sr_1_...
Scary hanger though!!
316 Stainless Steel from now on please have a look at the UIAA report:
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/Safety/Anchors/UIAA-WARNING-ABOUT-CLIMBI...
Glue in's are the way forward : )
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