UKC

Hi,

Went up to the Red Tarn last weekend and had a great day going up Number 2 gully. Something I noticed heading up was that occasionally and mostly in the centre of the gully I would feel the slightest vibration in the snow. Nothing big and it was always finished in an instance but enough to make me wonder. Whenever I did I skirted to the edges of the gully to find what felt like more stable snow...

I've not done much winter stuff independently so I was wondering if someone could let me know if what happened is normal or whether it was indicative of something I should have been concerned about?

In reply to batterj2:

Probably the poorly bonded layers underneath your feet that the Lakes Weatherline chaps have been warning about for days moving around, a sure fire signal for run away.....

In reply to batterj2:

Was it a kind of "whoomphing" feeling? If so richlan is on the money.

In reply to batterj2:

get this book it's great for snow evaluation and safe travel in the mountains http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/alaska-n-w-books-snow-sense-a-guide-to-evalu...

In reply to batterj2:

@Alasdair: yeah, probably the best way to describe it. Like I said it was over in an instance so maybe "mph"

@(everyone): Thanks for the advice. I guess it must have been borderline. We'd seen reports of people going up in the days leading up to the weekend and as we walked in we saw 4 parties go up the same gullies so we thought it was okay. In any case, glad that I was at least able to get a feel for it so I know what to look for....

In reply to batterj2:

http://beaware.sais.gov.uk/

In reply to batterj2:

>we saw 4 parties go up the same gullies so we thought it was okay.
Look up heuristic traps!

In reply to batterj2:

Yeah, that's a classic sign that there's a weak layer in the snow. The "Whumph" is the layer collapsing - I very strong signal to go to the pub! (or find a ridge)

As Mike-W-99 mentioned, it is always possible that the other people ahead have not read the avi-forecast and got lucky. It's not always the first teams that cause a slide.

In reply to Mike-W-99:

Beat me to it, i actually sighed out loud when i read that comment....

In reply to batterj2:
My wife and I climbed No 1 on Friday after I spoke to a pair topping out the day before. Very straightforward, rather easy, in fact it can be done with only a single alpine axe at the moment, very lovely though. The topout above also wnt easily and safely, but there are places in the centre of the gully (as often) where there is care needed as there is a distinct hollow sound. The pair climbing above us experienced a slight slip of the snow but it was fine as long as you are as wary as you always should be!

I descended No 2 yesterday, easily and safely, no problems except to take care of the snow conditions as there were definitely places where the attachment/bonding was poorer than others and you did well to skirt the edges so your instincts were in the right place.

I also found it safe and easy to descend the snow bowl left (as seen from Red Tjarn) of Swirral Edge and had some lovely and quite long slides down to near tarn level.

(I should mention that it is NOT safe to descend the bowl unless you are very careful to choose the safe spot to exit the plateau where the slope below can be seen without any cornice!)

In reply to Mike-W-99:
I suppose heuristics is a good word in this context. The folk I spoke to on Thursday appeared to be sensibly equipped and looked and sounded as if they had behaved carefully and had assessed the conditions found on the day. I can assure you that our party, though soloing, and the party above were quite cautious and careful, as was the guided party in the gully yesterday. It is easy to frown without having seen the conditions underfoot. Those of us who frequent the hills alone tend to be cautious or dead!


I should admit of course that I did not experience No 2 at the time of the OP.

In reply to wercat:
http://www.sunrockice.com/docs/Heuristic%20traps%20IM%202004.pdf

is interesting. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that avalanches happen sufficiently infrequently to you (hopefully!) that you don't actually gain any experience of avalanching - you gain (misleading) experience of avalanches not happening no matter how many risks you take.

Particularly interesting is that, when in familiar terrain, out of people who got avalanched their avalanche knowledge made no difference in terms of the risks they took (the slightly awkward wording is because there are no statistics for the people who didn't get avalanched). In other words, looking back at people who had become a statistic, 'advanced' knowledge people took as many risks in familiar territory as people with no avalanche knowledge.

The mountain doesn't know you are an expert, and all that...

In reply to andrewmcleod:
indeed, and that is why I tend to the cautious - I suppose what I was really saying is that people shouldn't assume that people they see are not being cautious - I don't regard myself as an expert with snow, but careful and a would-be survivor!


In fact, with increasing age, caution gets easier!