UKC

I suffer really badly from hot aches, every time I go winter climbing and sometimes on every belay.

It's impacting on my climbing because I often struggle when I'm seconding because I've got so cold from belaying that I can't feel my hands properly and then when I get to the belay I'm in agony for 5 mins, which doesn't exactly help me to be in the best frame of mind for leading the next pitch.

So I'm really keen to see if I can try and solve the problem. I run very cold anyway, I'm the girl that sits in the office with my down jacket on, even when the heating is on.

At the moment for climbing I'm wearing a pair of thermal pants, and softshell trousers, a brynje baselayer, merino base layer, powerstretch midlayer, hardshell and belay jacket, which I usually find I end up keeping on. I usually wear a thin base layer glove and a medium thickness climbing glove, and I also have a third pair of gloves to put on at the belay. I also carry heat pads which I usually keep in my gloves for warming up my hands. But despite all this I'm still getting hot aches.

I'm not sure if I need to concentrate on wearing more layers in general to keep my core warm, or focus on keeping my hands warmer?

Has anyone got any suggestions?

Thanks

Elsie

In reply to Elsier:

Do you use/have thumb loops or wrist gaiters so there's overlap all the way through the systems? Can you keep your core a bit warmer too?

In reply to Elsier:

One thing could be your weight, maybe you need a few pounds extra. Perhaps you have a circulation problem, have a look at methods to improve circulation. Mitts can be better for standing around as those fingers will be less likely to ache up if they are in contact with each other but mitts can be a bit dangerous for belaying if you're not used to them. Another tip could be to put your belay jacket on under your shell rather than over, this worked for me last week on a very windy belay. Tight gloves will restrict circulation so if you have 2 layers of gloves on it might not work if they are too tight. Sweating on the walk in can freeze you before you start, do you need to slow down the walk in so as not to sweat?

Theres a start.

In reply to JR:

Thanks just about to buy myself some wrist gaiters to see if that helps

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Thanks for all those tips

I suspect that putting on a bit of weight would probably help. I'm trying to eat as much cheese and cake as possible but during the winter it's just difficult as I'm so active that I don't really get any fatter, no matter how much I eat.

I do find that mitts keep my hands warmer, have buffalo mitts which I usually put on for the walk off, but probably wouldn't work great for climbing.

Putting my belay jacket on under my shell could be a good shout, will try that.

Will also check my gloves for tightness and make sure that's not the problem

Yes usually walk fairly slowly on the walk in, I'm fairly fit, so I usually don't get too sweaty at a comfortable pace. I used to take a spare base layer to change into, but with the brynje I'm feeling pretty dry and like I don't need to.

In reply to Elsier:

Have you had a medical opinion on whether you have Raynaud's?

In reply to Elsier:

Replace that sweat trapping merino layer!! The mesh beneath is great but the merino is preventing the sweat from passing further during exertion, making you cold when you stop moving. The Patagonia R1 (or ME Eclipse) is miles better.

Don't climb in your belay jacket!! You'll sweat and again that'll make you colder when you stop moving.

Get a proper belay jacket!! I'm talking 100-133 Primalofts, including the sleeves.

Don't constrict your arms with too many layers!! Let the blood flow by replacing one of your mid layers with a breathable insulated (Polartec Alpha or Nano Air) gilet. Or replace your two mid layers with a single Nano Air/AtomLT hoodie.

Ditch the hardshell for a softshell!! At least on days when you can stay dry on the outside. You'll sweat so much less which means you'll stay warmer at the belay.

Any of the above might make a difference. Good luck.

In reply to Elsier:

I'm assuming you don't want the obvious answer...

In reply to SenzuBean:

Nope but my hands do go white when cold, I had that problem when climbing at Ratho the other week.

Hopefully they won't tell me that I shouldn't get my hands cold, because I really enjoy winter climbing despite the suffering

In reply to Elsier:

I also walk on the spot to generate a bit of heat on belays. Keep moving as much as possible. I tend to get cold feet and hands. Hot aches are part of the fun but can be minimised.
Even snow googles can lessen the exposed area to the weather. Beenie or wind resistant powerstretch balaclava helps. Pile lined winter gloves also help rather than glove liners.
My Rab Ice Gauntlets are not so warm as my ME gloves as they are not pile lined.

In reply to Elsier:

Mitts are the answer, I often both lead and second wearing Buffalo mitts with a disposable hot pad packed into either the wrist or back of hand. It can be a bit fiddly getting used to but it's a lot easier to climb and rig belays etc in reasonably thin mitts compared to frozen fingers in thick gloves. If your hands are anything like mine then I can be in the best gloves on the planet but if my hands are already cold then they just won't heat up!

In reply to Elsier:


I wouldn't know what they'd say, but if you do see a medical person, try and find one who's clued up on outdoor activities. GPs usually only give advice that is helpful for average people (i.e. advice on how to get back to work, not on how to be a better part-time athlete).

My only other advice is to start developing the muscles in your hands and arms. In my (admittedly limited) personal experience, doing "hand cardio" on the walk-in primes my hands to deal with the cold a lot better than doing nothing. Also I remember reading that men deal better with cold on average better than women not because of higher fat % (women tend to have higher fat %), but because they are better shiverers (because men have more muscle %).

In reply to Elsier:

I wear almost twice as many layers as you and struggle badly with the cold but seem to have solved the hotaches problem. Key is beefy belay Mitts (my Montane Extreme Mitts are brilliant) worn next to the skin on belays while all other gloves are kept warm inside several layers of clothing. I carry at least two pairs of inner gloves and also carry some shell gloves (extremely hard to obtain - I'm currently struggling to replace them) which I climb in when seconding or, if possible, until my hands warm up leading. I find that inducing mild hotaches walking in helps prevent bad ones later and that gearing up in stages with several short stops for crampons, harness, rack etc is much better than a long faff at the foot of the climb. If hands start getting cold, always, if possible stop and warm them up. Not had bad hotaches for years, though considering giving up winter climbing because I can't carry enough clothing to keep warm otherwise!

In reply to Elsier:


I've worn these a few times at Ratho to keep my wrists warm till I'm fully warmed up. Double them over for extra warmth - you could even pop a disposable hand-warmer between the layers.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOUDLEWIDE-SPORTS-WRISTBANDS-BADMINTON-SWEATBANDS/d...

In reply to Elsier:

Ginger is good as it opens your capillaries (don't ask me how), i'm sure other foods may do the same. If you take ginger you may get a bit better circulation.

This is a horrendous idea (definitely ask you doctor if it's safe), If you were in theory to take aspirin your blood would thin. When you veins constrict from the cold your blood may pass through them more easily. therefor keeping better blood flow to your hands and stopping the sudden aches.

Do not wear your climbing gloves to walk-in. So they stay drier longer.

In reply to Elsier:

Has anyone ever used heated gloves?

http://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_prod/222274 or similar.

Surely for extended belaying they would work, allowing you to heat your hands when you're not moving around very much. They're obviously heavier than you'll be used to, but given the choice between screaming barfies and extra weight I'd rather take the extra weight.

In reply to Elsier:

Sure there's no need to give up winter climbing. Just got to get the layers right. Belaying for long periods is the classic hot aches cause.

First thing you need to work out is whether you are getting cold from insufficient warmth in your layers, or because your layers are becomes damp during the approach. Might be both. Do you find you are too warm during the approach or feel you are sweating? I try and wear the least amount that I can comfortably get away with on the approach and then layer up at the base of the route. You could even put on a new base layer at the start of the route if it is getting damp during the approach.

Maybe get a thicker midlayer? I wear a thick fleece for a midlayer. It may not be as 'technical' but it keeps me warm. I put it on at the base of the route. Also look at a heavy duty belay jacket maybe. Ultimately it's about finding the right number of layers that will keep you warm at the belay without leading you to overly sweating once climbing. Sounds like you are generally too cold all of the time. Wear as many layers as you need to be make sure your outer layers are not becoing to constrictive. You might need a larger shell to accommodate the right number of layers for example.

I'd get yourself some warm mitts for the belay if primarily just your hands that are feeling cold. Mitts are far warmer than gauntlet gloves. Something generously insulated. Down is going to be a problem on damp days, so something synthetic but warm. Get some expedition type gloves if you have to. As mentioned previous, make sure your gloves are not too constrictive if wearing multiple layers.

In reply to tspoon1981:

Outdoor Research do heated gloves, including these:

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/catalog/product/view/id/44444/s/lucent-he...

In reply to Elsier:

All good advice above but Rob Durrans point about not getting too cold on belays is critical.

Always keep flexing your hands to check on circulation. Don't be too proud to shiver, shake or hop.

I also find it easier to

a) do all the leading
b) get a faster partner
c) do easier/quicker routes or just go soloing. TTH

In reply to Elsier:

I agree with OPs comments about thumb loop thermals (or old socks cut as wrist overs), managing sweat carefully and using belay mitts. Hands tend to lose circulation whilst climbing (raised high and often in contact with snow, ice and cold rock). Keep the gloves/mitts you aren't wearing in our jacket close to your body for warmth. Consider alternating the climbing gloves so that each time you begin a pitch pull a body warmed pair of gloves out of your jacket and put them on replacing with those you were just wearing. Hydration may also make a difference. How well do you prehydrate before a hill day? Do you drink much alcohol the night before? Do you smoke? I tend to get almost a half litre of hot, weak ribbon inside me when i kit up and save a mug or two in the flask for chilly belay moments?

In reply to Elsier:

Mitts

In reply to Elsier:

I don't think there is a total solution. I have the same. What really helped me years ago was just to agree/acknolwedge that my hands are going to be like that when I winter climb. I know they will defrost eventually and be normal, so I have made peace with having painful hands for once/twice or three times and that's fine. I do the same with frozen feet

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I aggree with this. It could be your gloves. Experiment with different types. I don't often recall cold hands with the old woolly Dasteins!

In reply to Elsier:
I don't know if this is relevant to your problem but I get terrible hot aches which I found is exacerbated by gripping my tools too hard when actually climbing. I have to consciously relax my grip because obviously a tight grip restricts blood flow to the hands. As I said it might not be anything to do with your particular problem but for me, relaxing my grip has helped a bit.

In reply to BnB:

Thanks some good tips there, been thinking about getting an eclipse for a while.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

Thanks, yes I do tend to find that once my fingers are cold they won't heat up, getting mitts for the belay could be a good shout.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Thanks yes some great advice from everyone.

I've tried really hard to keep moving on the belays, but I still get cold. Often my hands don't feel cold until I start seconding, I presume because I'm lifting them above my head and sometimes also placing them into the snow, if it's a snowy pitch.

Last year I decided that I would always lead the first pitch and that definitely helped, I always get them worse on the first pitch of a climb, but I've been a bit more flexible about that this year, which hasn't helped.

In addition I'm keen to start trying some more tech 5s and hopefully even some 6s like the message, but ideally I'd like to try and improve the warmth of my hands a bit first, as that's likely to involve a bit more standing around whilst I wait for my partner to lead their pitches, and whilst I can psyche myself up for a lead after a really hideous bout of hot aches, it would be easier if I didn't have to!

In reply to AlH:

I'm terrible at hydrating, I don't drink much at all except coffee in the morning which probably won't help me hydrate. I carry a flask with me on the hill, but rarely drink from it. But I can make myself drink more especially if it might make a difference.

Lots of people saying about alternating gloves and keeping them warm inside your layers, so will definitely try that.

Thanks for all the tips everyone. Even if they only make a tiny bit of difference and I just get the hot aches a bit milder it will be a big difference.

I think my climbing partners will be relieved too, I don't think they have been enjoying the sight of me wimpering, hyperventilating and crying on the belay ledges.

In reply to Elsier:

Makes for some entertaining (depending on your perspective) videos though

In reply to Elsier:


Don't gloat Elsie!

I can get them very badly too, to the point of retching. The main thing that seems to help is the timing of changing gloves. If I change immediately after before belaying the seconder up any pitches on which I've worked up a sweat at all, that seems to do the trick. That way you get the benefit of not allowing any sweat to re-freeze before you're seconding yourself again (assuming swinging leads).

Only other thing that helps and are practical are big overmittens worn directly on the skin and that reach a reasonable way up your arm.

D.

In reply to Elsier:

You might find this helpful in your search for warmth.

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_gloves

Going against what he says a little bit, waterproof mountaineering mitts with a fleece inner might be worth a thought for belays if you could handle the rope in them?

In reply to Elsier:

Not to be the bearer of bad news but have you considered a medical cause;

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Raynauds-phenomenon/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Know a few folk with it and your description of your hands going white so quickly sounds a bit suss, all the additional layers may also be exacerbating things by restricting your circulation as well.

In reply to Elsier:

Apologies if I repeat others advice.

Dachstein mit are excellent and once you get used to them dexterous enough for most things. Please let me know if you come up with a way to get screws in one handed though!

Hard shell trousers will be warmer I'd have thought. Agree that ditching merino layer will get some sweat out of system.

A big boy belay jacket is probably worth going for if your mates on a pitch for 60 mins plus.

In reply to Elsier:

Out of curiosity how much time do you spend in warm climates? My sister is the same I guess (think blue fingers whilst sat in a warm living room).

There is a lot to be said for 'getting used to the cold' even on a daily basis. Try to actively accept cold and discomfort daily and it will pay off just as much as all of the good advice above!

As a winter climber and someone who spends their summers in the high Arctic I can attest to being the complete opposite, anything over 17°C and I'm horrid. Sweating like a pig, lethargic and incredibly uncomfortable, I absolutely hate it. But down to -52 and I'm a happy bunny.

In reply to Elsier:

Cold hands have always been a problem for me, I spoke to the Doctor about Reynaulds and she said coffee and nicotine are bad for it but apart from that there's nothing you can do. Various herbal remedies have been suggeseted but I've never tried any.

I take it you're climbing leashless? If not that will make the biggest difference. There's two strands of thinking behind keeping your hands warm, one is clothing and gloves and the other is tactics. You may well find that different gloves, base layers etc. might help (and especially a decent belay jacket, one you can't climb in without melting) but tactics play a bigger role imo.

If you wander up to the base of the route and aren't climbing within 10 minutes you'll get cold, if you put too many layers on before walking up the snow slope you'll get wet. If you put too few on you'll get cold. Some days its harder than others to stay warm so if you go out with a new system bear that in mind before discounting it or deciding it's the best system ever. Changing your socks or walking in in trainers then putting your boots on is the no. 1 way to keep your feet warm, although I rarely bother unless it's very grim or I know I'll be stood around for a long time. A fresh base layer does the same thing. Use a seperate pair of gloves for the walk in then swap to liners for quickly racking up then on with the mitts to belay. Put wet gloves on at any point during or before the climb and you'll get cold hands.

On the first pitch go slow, you can't outrun the hot aches by climbing faster so take your time, shake your hands out, don't over grip and keep your hands down as much as possible while you're on top rope. You lose speed with faff at the belays and by crouching over your hands mid pitch screaming, climbing a bit slower and keeping your hands warm might speed you up. The faster you are the warmer you are.

Use thicker gloves or mitts on the first pitch you second and keep your dry climbing gloves next to your skin, or at least next to your base layer if you can't stand the icy chill. Change them when wet even if it means carrying 3 pairs with you. It's always the pro's that seem to have functionally warm hands and still get away with silly thin gloves, I put it down to speed and tactics over clothing, going so fast you don't get cold, being so calm you don't over grip and climbing so well you can do it with your hands dangling by your waist for half the pitch. That's my observation anyway although I seem to repeatedly fail to recreate any of those tactics myself and still suffer from cold hands.

Interesting thread:

Lots of good advice. On a side not, I was talking-to an old guide in Norway about this a few years ago and he started telling me about that a Canadian military office (?), possible a doctor had undertaken some research on preventative treatment. I have tried to search for the paper but never found it. The basic principle is to train your body to act in a different way, kind of like re-programing your normal response. Basically it had you sitting outside light cloths in say -10 to -15, with your hands and feet in warm water for a set length of time. This is repeated over a period of time. The idea is to trick your body into thinking your hands are warm when your body thinks they should be cold.

I have never tried this method and I would be interested if any medically minded people have an opinion / heard about this type of treatment?

Obviously if you have symptoms related to Reynolds it might not help and again if your core is so cold in the first place tricking your hands to be warm would be a bad thing.

In reply to Elsier:
Hiya Elsie, I hope you're well - been a while since I bumped into you last.

I don't mean this in any way other than constructively, but you need to get a bit of fat on you! How about some wine in the evenings, or just eating less healthily. I went to uni with a girl who was a serious sailor, to the extent that she was considering whether to train with the intention of getting a spot on the GB Olympics team - in the end, she was told that she would have put on a fair bit of weight to be successful, but that was just a price she wasn't willing to pay...

Also, are you eating enough during your days out? I'm no physiologist, but it makes sense to me to have plenty of fuel to keep the fire burning hot in addition to giving you enough energy to climb. I quite often have a bag of flapjacks of similar (Marks and Spencer tubs of biscuits) in my jacket pocket when on a route and can just tuck into them at every belay.

my wife also really struggles with her hands when skiing - she'll definitely not be a winter climber! - and we've just decided to go for the warmest BD mitts (incidentally, are you in gloves or mitts?) available with a gore shell plus a down lined gore jacket to keep her core and arms toasty. She's not skied anywhere really cold since buying this, but has commented on having noticeably warmer hands. You've got bags of experience, so don't want to be too condescending, but I take it you're carrying a few pairs of gloves to keep hands as dry as possible?

I hope you find an answer that works for you as I know how bad the hot aches can be - fortunately I very rarely have suffered them.

In reply to Elsier:

The claim that aspirin helps with circulation has been kicking around for ages - I've never looked into it to see if there is any real medical research into it or not. But as long as you know you have no problem taking aspirin normally its one of those things that might be worth a try. Even if its the placebo effect, if it works it works!

I've never thought that getting dehydrated impacted on my hand warmth (although I'm sure it can/does), but when I started regularly winter climbing I found I was got horrible headaches by the evening. Alongside very yellow pee, of course I simply wasn't drinking enough. I would take a ltr bottle with me and never get it out of my pack, often bringing most of it home with me. As soon as I made a conscious effort to drink, the problem just went away. I found a camelbak or similar in my pack made a huge difference. I sweat plenty so can easily drink two litres a day. With a camelbak you simply drink more on the walk-in. Another thing is to have 20 cms of plastic tubing or even just a drinking straw in your pocket and drink from streams to walk past. Cold but works well for drinking plenty, be careful on the Ben though: I've got very sick once which was probably from drinking water polluted by people going to the loo higher on the mountain.

I used to suffer horribly, several times a pitch when i first started. I've tried most things, even sought out a specialist doctor and got prescribed nifedipine. The three things that have made the most difference (hot aches once a day or so):

- lots of gloves, thin for climbing (thicker gloves are pointless when your arms are above your head and hands squeezing a metal tube), thick for belaying and some in the 'oven' (arm pits). Put on an oven-warmed pair as you begin climbing

- wear a thick belay jacket, and change into it the moment you make yourself safe, regardless of how hot you are. Never climb in it either.

- and the biggest difference, that most people underplay... shake out. Go leashless and shake out a lot. And by a lot, I mean several shakes for each axe placement - swing, stick it, shake out, repeat. very difficult habit to get in to but makes the single biggest difference.

In reply to Elsier:

im currently trying Gotu Kola (no not a cheap aldi coke) which is meant to improve circulation, only been taking it for 4 days so far so no change as of yet - my middle finger on both hands still went numb running up Cadair idris on monday
Avoiding caffeine and wearing wrist / forearm warmers helps me more than gloves

In reply to Elsier:
I get cold easy too.

I use a 2nd mid layer which has a down fill. I only put this on at the base of the climb. This keeps my warmth levels up in general while climbing. People generally stay away from down in as UK as useless when wet. But I think as a 2nd mid layer it's great if you know you are not going to be working at too hard a rate.

I also keep a thin pair of lightweight mitts in my pocket and pop them on when I feel my hands getting colds. I can wriggle my fingers around and shake out to get my circulation back. Then pop my normal gloves back on. The mitts should be easily accessible. If you get slightly bigger gloves with large gauntlet you can pull your fingers out of the finger bit in the gloves and give them a bit of free movement like this too.

Stick spare gloves in your belay jacket so you can change out between pitches too. I usually take 3 pairs of decent gloves and one lightweight pair of mitts. It's amazing how much warmer your hands will be just by changing gloves.

Try and shake out where you can while climbing too. Before it really kicks in.

Pete

In reply to Elsier:

In addition to the really good replies above, what type of ice tools do you use?
Over gripping is more likely when the grips of your tools are too fat for your hands, or when you to get pumped due to the weight of the tools.
I found that switching to Grivel Quantum Techs gave me less pump, due to their light weight (but but proper swing) and small grips (I wear male size S gloves).

In reply to Elsier:

Noticed a few comments around aspirin in this thread. Someone more qualified may correct, but I believe aspirin 'thinning' the blood means that it will bind to platelets and stop them coagulating i.e. they won't clot together. Good for heart attacks, but I don't think it has any effect on actual blood viscosity, which I imagine is what people are suggesting may improve blood flow. It'll just take a little longer to stop bleeding if you cut yourself.

In reply to Elsier:

I'd solve the simple things first before you look at medical issues. Nearly everyone can get bad hot aches and the same old solutions help but only the very lucky will avoid it altogether. Keep moving on the spot when belaying to keep warm. Use good glove systems (mitts when belaying) and keep spares and use body heat to pre-warm gloves; keep your wrists warm. Don't hold metal kit longer than you have to. Try not to over-grip when climbing and shake-out when you can. Make sure you are hydrated and have eaten well and take snacks and water with you and force yourself to use them. Make sure your clothing system works... take stuff on and off to suit conditions (too much sweat will both dehydrate you and make you cold) and whatever system you use needs to wick sweat and be waterproof in the UK winter; so ditch that merino and be careful with belay jackets (get one recommended for the range of UK winter belaying... too many use jackets that can get damp). Andy's glove discussion is very good (linked above)... he knows his onions.

In reply to Elsier:

Don't overdress/ overheat/ sweat on walk in. "Be bold, start off cold"
Keep really well hydrated, not the easiest for ladies in winter but it really helps. Ditch the coffee
Keep fuelled - carb up night before, porridge brekkie and cheese/ salami nibbles during he day. Calories = warmth
Go leashless, don't over grip. Shake out and stomp
Never bare your hands. I keep my gloves on and put belay mitts over
Wristies or thumbloops. Keep your pulses warm - neck, wrists, groin. I wear thin leggings but wear cycle shorts over to keep groin warm.
Get faster on belays, bloc lead

In reply to Elsier:

Mitts are fine for belaying in I find. I think this would help you massively.

In reply to Elsier:
Oh and as others suggest - go leashless, leashes but off the blood supply and also don't let you shake out properly.

Also I think you need to tweak your clothing. Ideally you shouldn't usually be wearing a belay jacket to climb in and having it over your hard shell could be leading to sweat build up, which is always bad when you next stop. I'd consider:
- Wearing more insulation so you don't usually climb with your belay jacket on, a thick fleece perhaps you seem a bit light on very warm mid layers to me.
- Only wearing a hard shell when you need it, get a non membrane winter soft shell jacket.
- Possibly adding more insulation to your legs (this helps me when its really cold)
- Mitts on belay with your gloves stuffed down your top to warm and dry them out.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Lots of very experienced climbers second pitches with belay jackets on, if you have been hanging around for a long time belaying your leader doing this can often help warm you up again. Of course not getting mega sweaty is important, but I think this is one of those very personal things - I warm up quickly and sweat plenty so might stash my belay jacket before seconding even if I'm cold, but other people hardly sweat and don't warm up so quickly so seconding a belay jacket might work well for them.

In reply to TobyA:
IMO the clue to the ideal use scenario is in the name 'belay jacket'

Elsier mentioned she typically doesn't take the jacket off and the way I read that she meant for leads also, not just seconding pitches.

Occasionally if I've got really cold I may second a pitch with my belay jacket on, but I'll take it off before leading the next pitch (if swinging leads). However I disagree that the belay jacket should be worn the whole time as then what extra layer have you got to put on for long cold belays. Ideally the pitches should normally be climbed with the belay jacket off IMO and sufficient layers to do this.

If you read through her clothing list she has two base layers and a thin top under her hard shell, I don't think that's enough.

In reply to Elsier:

Lots of good advice already. If none of this advice works consider Handwarmers (toe warmers are also available). Far from a perfect solution but if everything else doesn't work may be worth trying.

In reply to Elsier:

+1 for wrist gaiters. I'm keeping my eyes open for a long sleeved tight fitting thermal top, with thicker material on the arms and thinner on the core for just this reason. Might be worth looking for? I've not found one though.

In reply to NottsRich:

Is it worth checking these out.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/product-reviews/paramo-torres-sleeves---review...

In reply to Elsier:

Thanks everyone some really good advice and lots of things that I can fairly easily change.

More mid layers, more breathable baselayers, more pairs of gloves, belaying in mitts, wrist gaiters, eating and drinking more, shaking out whilst climbing.

I do already do some of the other suggestions, climbing leashless, keeping moving on the belay etc.

Will try all of the above and see if it helps. At the moment I am wearing the same liners and outer pair of gloves all day ( Except for the walk off when I usually change). I have found in the past that putting a cold pair of new gloves on out of my bag induces the hot aches, which is why I don't change them even when wet, but will try keeping spare gloves warm inside my layers.

I usually find that my hands don't feel too cold on the belay and that I only start to get the sensation of frozen hands when I start climbing, probably due to holding them above my head etc, so will try seconding a bit slower and shaking out.

The hot aches never arrive till I am at the belay and I put my hands down again. To the extent that once my hands are cold, I can pretty much decide when to stop lower my arms and wait for the hot aches to start.

In reply to Elsier:
Do you over grip? A strong grip reduces bloodflow to the hands. I find I get hotaches at the top of scary pitches- which is probably more to do with over gripping rather than the gloves or weather conditions.

In reply to Elsier:

Not sure about the science behind the putting on weight suggestion - if someone knows, please explain. I suffer from hot aches and am at the top of the weight range for someone of my height (and sadly, it's not muscle, nor do I have unusually large bones). I do have poor circulation in both my hands and feet, which I think is the more likely cause of the hot aches. For me, finding a good combination of mitts and gloves (my problem there is that my hands are about the size of a five year old's) that fit well proved to be the most effective - and there's a lot of good advice on here for you to try. I did try handwarmers, but could never find any combination that didn't restrict movement/feel uncomfortable. Making an effort to keep my core warmer helped, too. And mentally preparing myself for dealing with it when happens the next time. Next time you are climbing and hear someone screaming bloody murder suffused with some choice anglo-saxon...it may well be me.

In reply to Elsier:

Have you tried the more serious hand warmers you can get, eg Zippo, or the charcoal-stick-in-tin types? I have the latter and it gets extremely hot, staying like that for 4 hours or more.

In reply to Taurig:

As someone who is likely more qualified (a medical and PhD student who teaches physiology to undergraduates), you're pretty much correct.

I cannot think of a reason why aspirin would help Elsie. As Taurig correctly states, aspirin works by inhibiting the clotting process which sticks platelets together, thus preventing the clots which gum up the arteries in unhealthy hearts and thereby cause heart attacks. Elsie's circulatory problems are caused by constriction of the muscle in the walls of the small arteries and capillaries in her hands, this is a normal physiological response whereby blood is redirected to deeper vessels to reduce heat loss. Unfortunately in Elsie's case it is excessive causing cold, lifeless hands with pain due to a reduction in oxygen and nutrients reaching the tissues and build up of waste products there, which stimulates the pain nerves. Again as Taurig said, aspirin doesn't reduce blood viscosity, nor does it make red blood cells more flexible so it won't help the blood squeeze past the constrictions.

From a physiological perspective there are many good ideas in this thread:
- maintain blood volume by drinking plenty of fluids, ideally warm ones to maintain core temperature
- maintain body temperature by wearing the right amount of clothing at the right time (don't get sweaty, but don't get cold then try to warm back up)
- keep hands active to encourage blood supply
- wrist gaiters are meant to be great, the arteries that supply the hand are very shallow at the wrist so could benefit from some extra insulation
- constriction of blood supply to arms can be a problem, but the compression of a baselayer or neoprene wrist gaiter won't be greater than blood pressure so they're not at fault. Static constrictions like an axe leash could restrict blood supply though.
- ultimately this could be Raynaud's, worth going to a GP for an opinion, one with an interest in sports and exercise medicine, ideally related to the outdoors could be a good idea.
That's everything that comes to mind. Good luck!