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Climbing on a rope that's been damp for three months

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 lemonhead 21 Feb 2016
My girlfriend's rope has been languishing in the back of her car for around three months.

Taking it out for a spin today it smelled a bit damp and I realised it had probably been at the mercy of the weather and damp for some time.

I didn't really want to take a fall on it, though I may be paranoid. Could the rope have been damaged if it was damp for that long? Is it safe to climb on now?

Thanks for the help!
 Mick Ward 21 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

Leave my ropes in the shed all year round. ("Not coming in the house!" Her indoors.) Shed's damp as f*ck, with sea air. An awful lot of guidebooks (beside the ropes) have turned to mush.

Pull aforesaid ropes out of shed, year after year. Loadsa lobs. Same ropes. And I'm still here.

Mick

(Yeah but would you listen to a guy who once made his mate belay to an ant hill?)
 carr0t 21 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

Are you sure its water and not some other chemical? I wouldnt trust a damp rope thats been languishing in my boot for months on end, but thats because i carry all sorts of garbage in there.
 JJL 21 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

Nylon doesn't give a stuff if it's damp or not.

It's fine.

Enjoy
 Greasy Prusiks 21 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

My gut says it'll be fine. Was it out of the sun light? Probably be fine even if it has but just something to think about.

(Disclaimer- Last year I abseiled off an 80s climbing rope complete with crampon holes. I am quite clearly an idiot).
 MischaHY 21 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

It'll be fine. Give it a good drying if you want it to handle well and run smoothly in a belay device but a bit of residual dampness shouldn't harm. Sunlight, on the other hand...
 john arran 21 Feb 2016
In reply to MischaHY:

I'm fairly sure that sunlight degradation of climbing ropes hasn't been a problem since the 80s. Happy to be proved wrong if someone knows better.
In reply to lemonhead:

Ropes are cheap insurance.
Chuck it, buy a new one.
DC
7
 deepsoup 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

> I didn't really want to take a fall on it, though I may be paranoid.

Will folks on here telling you it's fine restore your confidence in it? If so it's absolutely fine. If not you may need a new rope even so...

(You are certain it's just water, right? And especially that there's no acid, no bleach in there. There isn't a spare car battery in the boot or anything?)
 Dogwatch 22 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:
>I'm fairly sure that sunlight degradation of climbing ropes hasn't been a problem since the 80s. Happy to be proved wrong if someone knows better.

That seemed unlikely so I looked it up. Turns out you are right. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&u...
Post edited at 06:42
 Dogwatch 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

> My girlfriend's rope has been languishing in the back of her car for around three months.

> Taking it out for a spin today it smelled a bit damp and I realised it had probably been at the mercy of the weather and damp for some time.

There's weather in the back of your girlfriends's car?

 Graeme Hammond 22 Feb 2016

Try contacting Dan Middleton at the BMC

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-staff-list

G
Post edited at 08:42
1
 jkarran 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

There's water everywhere in our environment. Your car boot isn't much wetter than your house. Personally I'd dry it out and use it. My ropes and gear have lived in various car boots for the better part of the last decade.
jk
 Martin Hore 22 Feb 2016
In reply to Dogwatch:

> >I'm fairly sure that sunlight degradation of climbing ropes hasn't been a problem since the 80s. Happy to be proved wrong if someone knows better.

> That seemed unlikely so I looked it up. Turns out you are right. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=we...

That's interesting, but I'm not quite convinced. It's not "evidence" I know but my own experience is that post-1980s nylon flysheets definitely degrade in UV - I have more than one that has died for that reason (just pulled apart by hand). And I'm never convinced about the strength of rope left exposed to UV as abseil anchors (eg at Shorncliffe) for more than a couple of years.

Martin
 Adam Long 22 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:

> Nylon doesn't give a stuff if it's damp or not.

Not true; dynamic performance of nylon rope declines markedly when wet. This is not so much an increase in impact force as a dramatic decrease in number of falls held before failure. The good news is performance is regained if dried, and largely regained if frozen.

http://www.singingrock.com/wet-and-icy-ropes-may-be-dangerous

"the presence of water in nylon greatly lowers its Tg, the Glass Temperature (glass transition temperature of the material). Water acts like a real plasticizer, since it deeply modifies both the mobility of the amorphous part of the macromolecule and the characteristic temperature of mechanical relaxation of the material. This means "in many respects, the addition of water to nylon is equivalent to raising its temperature by a substantial amount" (says literature). In other words: testing a wet rope on the Dodero at normal temperature is about equivalent to testing the dry rope at 70-80 _C, conditions which cause a loss in performance."



 CurlyStevo 22 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:
> I'm fairly sure that sunlight degradation of climbing ropes hasn't been a problem since the 80s. Happy to be proved wrong if someone knows better.

I hear this on here frequently but I don't think its actually true. Manufacturers may claim their products are UV stabilised but actually none of them seem to actually claim you can leave your rope out in strong sunlight indefinitely with no effect, I think they mean a rope should wear out before UV degradation becomes an issue, when used in typical climbing scenarios. Tat left outside day in day out for example is a different use case.

http://www.caimateriali.org/index.php?id=39

http://www.singingrock.com/wet-and-icy-ropes-may-be-dangerous
http://www.mytendon.com/file/340/Manual_horolezeckych_a_pracovnich_lan.pdf
etc
Post edited at 10:22
 CurlyStevo 22 Feb 2016
In reply to Dogwatch:

See above post
 JJL 22 Feb 2016
In reply to Adam Long:

Sure, but in this context he dries it and he's good to go.
 Andy Manthorpe 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

Water makes nylon more flexible and does not react with it. Just dry the rope out and continue to use it.

 john arran 22 Feb 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I hear this on here frequently but I don't think its actually true. Manufacturers may claim their products are UV stabilised but actually none of them seem to actually claim you can leave your rope out in strong sunlight indefinitely with no effect, I think they mean a rope should wear out before UV degradation becomes an issue, when used in typical climbing scenarios. Tat left outside day in day out for example is a different use case.

You may well be right but I don't think it's a significant factor for ropes. I've read (sorry, don't have links) a number of reports about testing of old rope that's been left in-situ for years, even decades, and it remaining within or close to its original strength spec. because only the sheath is UV impacted and the main strength is in the core, which is UV shielded by the sheath.

I wouldn't trust tape that had been in situ a long time and was badly faded.
 Timmd 22 Feb 2016
In reply to Dogwatch:

> There's weather in the back of your girlfriends's car?

It's very tall, giant airships can fit inside it.
In reply to lemonhead:
it's the tools of your trade (sport) so why would you not just bin it and buy a new one, they're not exactly expensive. Enquiries on UKC usually result in the cheapest rather than best solution unfortunately.
Post edited at 15:09
2
 jamesy007 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

Rain water is slightly acidic depending on what your rope is made from it could have been eroded away and lost its stregth.
 ianstevens 22 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

It's ruined, post it to me for immdiate correct disposal.

Seriously, it's probably fine.
 CurlyStevo 22 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:
> You may well be right but I don't think it's a significant factor for ropes. I've read (sorry, don't have links) a number of reports about testing of old rope that's been left in-situ for years, even decades, and it remaining within or close to its original strength spec. because only the sheath is UV impacted and the main strength is in the core, which is UV shielded by the sheath.

> I wouldn't trust tape that had been in situ a long time and was badly faded.

I linked a report above that actually performed tests and found a correlation with rope strength and UV fading, unfortunately the whole report wasn't available but enough was to see that UV does degrade ropes. Also bear in mind that only a small portion of the sheath need to be damaged to significantly weaken it and a large percentage of a ropes strength is in its sheath.

a 10 second google found this also
http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mclaren/JMDA75.pdf
"1.6.3 UV light
Signoretti [30] has also examined the effect of UV
exposure on the number of DODERO falls withstood.
He exposed samples of rope to sunlight at mountain
huts in the Dolomites and tested both the static
strength of filaments and the dynamic fall-holding
ability. He reports a 35 per cent decrease in number
of falls after 3 months at the Kostner hut (2250 m),
and 15 per cent reduction in number of falls after
exposure for the same time at the Carestiato hut
(1834 m). He explains the difference with reference
to the intensity of sunlight at different altitudes.
The decrease in dynamic performance of the ropes
is greater than the difference in static strength of
the filaments."

Also consider that a degraded sheath will almost definitely cut more easily.
Post edited at 16:01
 jkarran 22 Feb 2016
It's hard to tell genuine advice from satire on here sometimes!

Wet ropes might not behave as well as dry ropes but they can a) be dried and b) they're still bloody strong! The only rope I've ever snapped was wet, it was a c10 years old 10.5 Mammut dynamic and beat to hell from a lot of climbing before retirement. I then left it lying in a field for about a year to mature. After all that it stopped a BMW 3 series from about 20-25mph once then broke over an edge second go. I was trying to rip another old car loose from the grass that had grown up into it!
jk
 DaveHK 22 Feb 2016
In reply to jamesy007:

> Rain water is slightly acidic depending on what your rope is made from it could have been eroded away and lost its stregth.

I stopped using ropes made from limestone for this very reason.
 john arran 22 Feb 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Thanks for the extra info. Seems like a slightly higher strength reduction than shown in the tests I remember, but then again I think those may have been fixed ropes in the UK, where UV typically is somewhat less prevalent than at altitude in the Dolomites!

I still think the point remains valid, that fixed rope of the kind that you often see at abseil stations will usually not be seriously degraded if faded, given the kind of loads normally applied during an abseil, whereas faded tape in the same situation should be treated with a great deal more caution.
 CurlyStevo 22 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:

yeah I basically agree.
 jamesy007 22 Feb 2016
In reply to DaveHK:

hehe that made me laugh!
 andrewmc 23 Feb 2016
In reply to lemonhead:

If getting/staying wet significantly weakened ropes, cavers would be in big trouble... :P

It's actually common practice to soak a rope in water before using it for a long descent to avoid glazing it on a hot descender!
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2016
In reply to above:

Obviously ropes often get wet outside then dried again after climbing; that's different. I would have thought though that a rope which has been kept damp for a long time would be more prone to mold or rot?
 john arran 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I would have thought though that a rope which has been kept damp for a long time would be more prone to mold or rot?

Given that nylon is not an organic material and therefore not capable of itself supporting mold [sic] or rotting, it seems you would have thought wrongly.
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:

OK fair enough. So is it basically only through sunlight and freeze-thaw that material deteriorates in the mountains?
 john arran 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> OK fair enough. So is it basically only through sunlight and freeze-thaw that material deteriorates in the mountains?

Wind is a big factor, I think, as it causes physical abrasion by repeated contact with rough rock
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:

> nylon is not an organic material and therefore not capable of itself supporting mold [sic] or rotting,

When folk talk about 'rotting tat' on the crags then, are they using the wrong word?
 john arran 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> When folk talk about 'rotting tat' on the crags then, are they using the wrong word?

Yes, I believe so. Once upon a time it may have been made of hemp and so could genuinely have been rotting, so maybe more archaic than outright wrong.
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