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What will happen to Europeans in UK after Brexit

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 Heike 23 Feb 2016

I have tried to find out any answers, but there is no detailed information available anywhere. So, what will happen to people from the EU who have lived here (happily) for many years? Will we be evicted? What about husbands and children? What about British-Euro families (of which there are many) Will they be split up? Anyone got any ideas...?
Post edited at 23:27
 john arran 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

That's because there really is no plan.

A lot of energy seems to have been directed into throwing the toys out of the pram, but very little thought given to what will be left to play with.
3
OP Heike 23 Feb 2016
In reply to john arran:

I see, and agree, but it doesn't help my anxiety levels...I am just really worried. If there would be some guidance anywhere at least, then I could prepare and take some steps, but there is nothing . If we all get thrown out after June, what to do? What about my family, I am German, but my husband and son are British. If I would get evicted, we would all go to Germany as we want to stay together as a family, I could make extra efforts NOW to get a job in Germany - difficult as it might be. However, there is no information. It is all about power for the few in government. Never mind what it will mean to the millions on the ground...
 ScottTalbot 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

I heard on LBC the other day that it wouldn't affect anyone that was already here, but whether there is any guarantee of that, I don't know!?!

OP Heike 24 Feb 2016
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it...
 marsbar 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

I think that as you have a British husband you would be able to apply for citizenship. I would be more worried for thise who aren't married.
OP Heike 24 Feb 2016
In reply to marsbar:
Thing is I was quite happy being a European. There was no need. I could apply now for citizenship, yes. However, it also costs £1500 pounds, you have to take a test (on British history etc - most Brits would fail I am sure, I have looked at it), buy books to prepare you for it and swear allegiance to the Queen.
Post edited at 00:33
 Lurking Dave 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

More importantly you would need to give up your German citizenship... Or go through a long, complex (very German) process to explain why you need both.

Cheers
LD
1
OP Heike 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Lurking Dave:

No you wouldn't. Germany allows dual citizenship. I am currently getting this set up for my wee boy just in case. You only need to fill in a form and pay for the passport.
 Lurking Dave 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

My wife went through this 18 months ago... needed a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung as was acquiring non-EU citizenship, so different case, sorry.

Cheers
LD
 silhouette 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

Possible simple answer; what happened before 1973 and the UK even joined the (EEC) in the first place (or was it later than freedom of movement was brought in)?
 RyanOsborne 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:
> Thing is I was quite happy being a European. There was no need. I could apply now for citizenship, yes. However, it also costs £1500 pounds, you have to take a test (on British history etc - most Brits would fail I am sure, I have looked at it), buy books to prepare you for it and swear allegiance to the Queen.

GF's just done it and passed first time - Italian, living here 5 years. I know it's a drag, but if your life is here in the UK, then it's surely worth it? She read the book and did practice tests on the app.

For what it's worth, I don't think that the you will be kicked out in the event of Brexit. We will probably remain in the EEA and still be subject to (by which I mean benefit from) freedom of movement. The amount that that situation would piss off Farage and the Daily Mail readership is perhaps the one good side effect of Brexit should it happen. The potential for years of recession and economic destitution while trade deals are sorted out (especially if we weren't able to stay in the EEA) kind of outweighs it though.
Post edited at 09:35
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 ring ouzel 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

My wife is in the same position. Our daughter has dual nationality. Wife is off to Germany today to see her parents, I think this topic of discussion is bound to come up!! Here on the Black Isle we know at least a dozen couples where at least one partner is not from the UK. If non-UK people were thrown out it would affect about 90% of the people we know! Hope it won't happen or I will need to learn German. At least Germany has good mountains and more birds than we have (staying positive!).
Pan Ron 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

I suppose the other question is what about those of us with UK citizenship who actually value more our EU citizenship? Will we be accepted as some form of EU refugee in say, Denmark or France? Possibly I suppose if Scotland leaves the UK they might offer Scottish citizenship to Brits who want to remain in the EU.
Gone for good 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

Have you applied for residency. That should go some way to allaying your fears.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-document-certifying-...
 Mike Stretford 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Gone for good:

> Have you applied for residency. That should go some way to allaying your fears.


If she's German that's not the form. EU citizens already have residency rights, so there is no form, what will happen is up in the air like everything else.
 skog 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Gone for good:

Yeah, I'm afraid that isn't relevant to EU nationals. And it won't be relevant to anyone if the UK also leaves the EEA.

Still, it's good to see even just the threat of Brexit making a start on cutting all that nasty bureaucracy - things will be much more efficient when they're sorted out individually rather than by multinational agreement!
Gone for good 24 Feb 2016
In reply to skog:

Yes, it seems the form I was referring to was for the European accession states, ie Hungary, Poland, Czech etc and even then is a 'nice to have' rather than a necessity.

In any event it cant be anything other than concerning for non UK residents and I would hope that some form of reassurance is issued to help put peoples minds at rest.
 Owen W-G 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Gone for good:

No one is seriously suggesting that EU citizens will be thrown out. There are millions of them here for starters, incl 1 in 8 Londoners apparently. Forced evictions on that scale is unimaginable and if UK votes OUT workers will still need EU workers to do the work.

What will happen instead is that pull factors, such as benefits for EU migrants, will cease and some will leave of own accord but majority of EU migrants will remain in UK. I'd imagine that most EU workers in jobs, who pay their taxes, would continue life much as before.
 HakanT 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

I suspect we'll be rounded up by the Michael Gove Brigade in August...
1
Gone for good 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Owen W-G:

> No one is seriously suggesting that EU citizens will be thrown out. There are millions of them here for starters, incl 1 in 8 Londoners apparently. Forced evictions on that scale is unimaginable and if UK votes OUT workers will still need EU workers to do the work.

>I dont doubt that but clearly, you only need to refer to the OP, some people have questions and concerns that need to be answered.
Jim C 24 Feb 2016
In reply to David Martin:

> I Possibly I suppose if Scotland leaves the UK they might offer Scottish citizenship to Brits who want to remain in the EU.

But , as was 'proven' during the Scottish Referundum, Scotland on leaving the UK, will NOT then be a member of the EU.
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 Mikkel 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

As i am in same situation, i looked at what UK citizenship would cost, as Denmark now allow dual citizenship I no longer need to give up my Danish passport to get a british one.
Cost was just over 1000 + 50 for the the test and another 13 for the book to be able to study for the test.

This could have a massive impact on where i work, as we employ a lot of people from all over the EU and im sure all would really like to know the answer to your question. but sadly i dont think we will find out until a long time after a possible Out vote as until then i dont think anyone will even bother to think about it.

Maybe i need to get married and start saving for citizenship just incase..
 Sir Chasm 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> But , as was 'proven' during the Scottish Referundum, Scotland on leaving the UK, will NOT then be a member of the EU.

Yes, there's a cognitive dissonance from some posters. Keen to leave the UK and hence leave the EU, but now not keen to leave the EU. Still, best to take these things on a referendum by referendum basis.
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Yes, there's a cognitive dissonance from some posters. Keen to leave the UK and hence leave the EU, but now not keen to leave the EU. Still, best to take these things on a referendum by referendum basis.

Saying that leaving the UK would have meant leaving the EU was total scaremongering crap from the No campaign. The same kind of tactic is about to be used in the EU referendum and it will probably have the same effect: win the vote by a small margin while leaving such an unpleasant aftertaste the issue stays live until there is another referendum.

If Scotland had voted for independence the first thing that would have happened is that most of the useful functions of the UK would have been put back together as a treaty between nations. The same thing will happen if the UK votes to leave the EU and for the same reason: it is by far the most convenient thing for all parties. I'm not in favour of the UK leaving the EU but equally I don't think that trying to scare people into voting No is the right approach.
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 skog 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Sir Chasm:

In addition to what Tom said there, it isn't cognitive dissonance if you think that, short to medium term and regardless of how it was handled initially, an independent Scotland is more likely to be in the EU than the UK is.

But, as you say, one referendum at a time.
 winhill 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

It's early days yet but the Spanish are working on an exchange program, so EU citizens like yourself will be shipped over to Spain, whilst Spain empties the Costa del Crime on a one in one out basis.

So you'll get a nice villa with pool in Torremolinos, albeit with tacky gold coloured furnishings and a cellar that smells of nine bar.
 Sir Chasm 24 Feb 2016
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Saying that leaving the UK would have meant leaving the EU was total scaremongering crap from the No campaign. The same kind of tactic is about to be used in the EU referendum and it will probably have the same effect: win the vote by a small margin while leaving such an unpleasant aftertaste the issue stays live until there is another referendum.

It wasn't scaremongering, merely the reality. And we'll have to see how the in/out campaigns play out this time, but ignoring unpalatable truths shouldn't be a part of either side.

> If Scotland had voted for independence the first thing that would have happened is that most of the useful functions of the UK would have been put back together as a treaty between nations. The same thing will happen if the UK votes to leave the EU and for the same reason: it is by far the most convenient thing for all parties. I'm not in favour of the UK leaving the EU but equally I don't think that trying to scare people into voting No is the right approach.

I haven't seen much evidence yet of scare tactics, perhaps you're just a bit feart.
 tony 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> I haven't seen much evidence yet of scare tactics, perhaps you're just a bit feart.

According to Iain Duncan-Smith, membership of the EU means we're more at risk of being eaten alive by space monsters. Or something.
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 Sir Chasm 24 Feb 2016
In reply to tony:

> According to Iain Duncan-Smith, membership of the EU means we're more at risk of being eaten alive by space monsters. Or something.

Shurely shome mishtake, an UK free of the EU will have control of its borders and won't let aliens in.
 StefanB 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:
> No you wouldn't. Germany allows dual citizenship. I am currently getting this set up for my wee boy just in case. You only need to fill in a form and pay for the passport.

Are you sure about this? I was told I had give up my German citizenship if I was to take on another one (in my case Spanish). Our son on the other can have dual citizenship with a parent from each country. It's apparantly different for emigrated Germans.

Sorry, I can't help on the original question, other tham saying that common sense and precedence in other non-EU country would suggest that for those who can provide for themeselve, there is ussually a way to live and work in a country.
Post edited at 14:45
 Rob Parsons 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> But , as was 'proven' during the Scottish Referendum, Scotland on leaving the UK, will NOT then be a member of the EU.

Fact is, again, nobody knows. What we need to hear - from all sides - are statements and plans about how they will proceed whichever way the vote pans out.

Regarding Scotland, the clear 'threat' is that, in the event of the UK leaving the EU, it would seek independence and then enter the EU on its own terms. However, in doing so, it would probably have to accept the Euro - since that, I think, is now the EU rule for new joiners. Is that what it would envisage? Who knows?
Post edited at 14:45
 Timmd 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:
A friend from Hungary is concerned about this, they're currently working for a university, in looking into how to make it easier for people from poorer and minority backgrounds to access and progress through the university. 'Immigrant makes positive contribution shocker'
Post edited at 15:15
 neilh 24 Feb 2016
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Win the vote by a small margin!!! Come on. I recollect it was not a small margin that voted to stay with the UK .
 Nevis-the-cat 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:

Apparently they leave and sail to the Undying Lands in the west.

Nope ,sorry that's the Elves. Easy to confuse the two.

No idea.
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Regarding Scotland, the clear 'threat' is that, in the event of the UK leaving the EU, it would seek independence and then enter the EU on its own terms. However, in doing so, it would probably have to accept the Euro - since that, I think, is now the EU rule for new joiners. Is that what it would envisage? Who knows?

We can rehash the arguments about whether Scotland would be a 'new joiner' or not. There were legal arguments on both sides. But they legal arguments are pretty much irrelevant because at a practical level Scotland wouldn't want to leave and the EU would not want the hassle of splitting off an existing member or to lose a state that paid in more than it took out or the loss of territory, It would be in everyone's interest to keep Scotland in with minimum disruption so they'd do what the EU does: posture a bit, have a meeting, talk all night and fudge up a deal.

If the UK was leaving the EU there would be so much uncertainty about the pound as a currency that keeping the pound as opposed to switching to the Euro (or a new currency) would be far less of a consideration.


 Rob Parsons 25 Feb 2016
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
> ... It would be in everyone's interest to keep Scotland in with minimum disruption so they'd do what the EU does: posture a bit, have a meeting, talk all night and fudge up a deal.

But that could only be done were Scotland already independent from the rest of the UK - which won't be the position: the result of the forthcoming EU referendum certainly predates any putative referendum on independence for Scotland.

> If the UK was leaving the EU there would be so much uncertainty about the pound as a currency that keeping the pound as opposed to switching to the Euro (or a new currency) would be far less of a consideration.

I disagree - and the reasons are exactly the same as were advanced at the time of the 2014 referendum. Who would want to join the Eurozone right now? That would be a very hard sell to the electorate. But that's what would be imposed - so far as I understand it - on any new joiners.

But we can speculate endlessly, of course. Referring back to the OP, the statement that 'I have tried to find out any answers, but there is no detailed information available anywhere' is quite right, and reflects a so-far woeful lack of detailed *aspirations* - let alone plans - from all political parties.
Post edited at 23:55
Jim C 26 Feb 2016
In reply to skog:
> In addition to what Tom said there, it isn't cognitive dissonance if you think that, short to medium term and regardless of how it was handled initially, an independent Scotland is more likely to be in the EU than the UK is.

> But, as you say, one referendum at a time.

But Dave Martin needs to think two referendums ahead, if he suggests that Scotland could offer EU citizenship for Brits to moving to Scotland to try and stay in the EU after just one referendum- if we voted for an exit.
It is clear that the SNP think Scotland will be out of the EU after a leave vote. ( that is their reason for a second referendum after all)

Edit.
As was the case in the Scottish referendum, the question of Scotland's possible entry( or not) into the EU can ONLY be asked by the UK government.
The UK government refused to ask for clarification during the Scottish referendum( because they were happy with muddy waters)
, let's see if they are more inclined now, to clarify the position.
They will only do so if they think that clarifying that point will help them with a remain vote. If not , they will not feel inclined to clarify the situation ( yet again) as that would be giving the voters real facts that might be used against them.
Post edited at 01:06
 RomTheBear 26 Feb 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I think that as you have a British husband you would be able to apply for citizenship. I would be more worried for thise who aren't married.

Being married to a British husband does not entitle to citizenship. It doesn't even help.
However you can get spousal visa if the husband earn more than 18,000£ (it's more if they have kids)
 mike123 26 Feb 2016
In reply to winhill:


> So you'll get a nice villa with pool in Torremolinos, albeit with tacky gold coloured furnishings and a cellar that smells of nine bar.

Where do I sign ?
OP Heike 26 Feb 2016
In reply to David Martin:

> I suppose the other question is what about those of us with UK citizenship who actually value more our EU citizenship? Will we be accepted as some form of EU refugee in say, Denmark or France? Possibly I suppose if Scotland leaves the UK they might offer Scottish citizenship to Brits who want to remain in the EU.

Yup! Good question. I hope you would be welcome in other EU countries.
OP Heike 26 Feb 2016
In reply to Mikkel:

Yes, bloody expensive. And I just feel very unnecessary...
OP Heike 26 Feb 2016
In reply to StefanB:
100 % sure. I investigated with the German embassy in Edinburgh and that's what they said. They said I could have dual citizenship and so could my son (born in Scotland - he has got a British passport only so far).
Post edited at 18:55
 Rob Parsons 26 Feb 2016
In reply to Heike:
> 100 % sure. I investigated with the German embassy in Edinburgh and that's what they said. They said I could have dual citizenship and so could my son ...

Heike, dual (or triple, or ...) citizenship depends *only* on the laws of the country you're *coming from*.

So, if the Germans say that the you yourself can take citizenship of another country (say, the UK), and that that act - of itself, under German law - doesn't mean that you have voluntarily renounced German citizenship, then the laws of the country you're *going to* (which in your case would be the UK) are irrelevant: you would still be - in *Germany* - a dual citizen.

Likewise, whether or not your son can retain UK citizenship should he choose to take German citizenship is entirely in the gift of the UK laws: what German law says doesn't matter.

Note that you cannot expect such laws to be symmetrical between countries; and also, of course, all such laws can and do change from time to time.
Post edited at 20:53
violentViolet 27 Feb 2016
In reply to Lurking Dave:

> More importantly you would need to give up your German citizenship... Or go through a long, complex (very German) process to explain why you need both.

> Cheers

> LD

That's not true anymore, since 2007 German citizens can take another EU member state's citizenship and retain their German one without the need for a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung. I've got an email from the Auswaertige Amt to assure me that even in the event of a Brexit I wouldn't be asked to obtain one retrospectively or lose my German citizenship.

Cost me 1200 quid altogether and I had an atheist affirmation of my allegiance to the queen, rather than swearing on a holy book of my choice. I briefly contemplated taking my copy of the Gospel of the FSM, but my husband told me firmly that I can't go to the ceremony wearing a colander on my head.
Ceremony was actually quite nice, but York do pomp and circumstance rather well. They also gave me a shiny golden coloured coin saying that I'm a "British Citizen, proudly registered in York".

Then I had to spend another 13 quid on top of the 1200 I already spent on application and language and life in the UK test, because the eejits at the home office mispelled my name on the certificate.

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