UKC

Hi all.

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to understand something. So if you're inclined to attack me based on the fact that I'm a beginner and you're not, kindly move on to another topic please.

That said, I've been climbing indoors all winter and now it's approaching summer, my mind is turning to outdoors. But after spending a couple of hours this morning reading the way novice posters get treated here when they ask about top roping Stanage Edge, etc, I'm actually considering just sticking to indoor climbing.

So I have two questions:

1) Are the posts that I've been reading representative of the attitudes of people at the crag?
2) What's actually wrong with top roping?

For reference, these are the threads which have caused me to question whether I want to top rope outdoors:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=248598
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=625624
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=624961

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Hi Mike

Why not join a club and serve an apprenticeship as a second and then move into leading?

Just a suggestion but you will learn a great deal more and progress quicker.

HTH Davey

In reply to MikeMarcus:



It is boring compared with top roping indoors where everything is set up in advance because the ratio of time spent messing about to time spent climbing is all wrong. You've got to get to the top, mess about with gear/slings/ropes to build a belay, set up the rope you want to climb on, get back down to the bottom and only then you get to climb a fairly short route at which point you get to take everything back down again.

If you aren't into trad then bouldering would be more fun than top-roping.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

You seem to have missed the most recent thread on the topic which offers constructive advice and views.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=634508

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Why the hostility? Small willies.

No.

Nothing.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Top roping outdoors has the same rights as any other climbing game, but like any other form of climbing don't hog the route and don't damage the rock.

A few of the posts in such threads breach posting guidelines on The Starting Out Forum: always best to report such to the moderators.

"The Starting Out Forum - The Starting Out forum is often where people make their first posts, and sometimes the questions can get repetitive. Try and answer questions positively, if you can't do that, then leave it to someone who can. We were all beginners once."

In reply to MikeMarcus:

It's a myth. No one cares if you top-rope or not. Just don't hog a route.

In reply to jkarran:

I agree, nothing actually wrong with top roping per se.

There is something wrong with a couple of things that are often associated with top roping:

(1) groups hogging classic routes at popular crags on busy days

(2) people getting on routes on which they are hopelessly out of their depth and causing polish, broken holds etc, thus spoiling the routes for people who are capable of climbing them

Also, since the OP mentioned Stanage: anybody who has the gear and knowledge to set up safe toprope anchors at Stanage also has the gear and knowledge to lead easy routes at Stanage. (This obviously does not apply to places where is it possble to anchor a top rope on bolts, big fat trees or similar)

In reply to Mountain Llama:





+1 for this

(although I also have no problem with top roping per se - my main issue is when an organised group set up lots of ropes and then they lay idle when I'd actually like to lead the route. But a polite request to the leader usually sorts this out immediately and without fuss

In reply to MikeMarcus:

The "normal" style is for one person to lead the route first then belay the second from the top, who (hopefully!) clears out the gear on the way up. Once both are at the top they dismantle the belay and walk off. The good thing about this is that once the second is established on the route the next leader can set off on the route and by the time the leader the reaches the top the previous party will have left. If you want to climb a particular route that has people on it you can either "queue" at the bottom or go and climb something else and hope it is free later.

There are a few issues people have with toproping:

- It's rather annoying if you have queued at the bottom of the route as described or started to lead it to have someone suddenly start setting up a rope from the top.
- Even at its most efficient top roping will occupy a route for much longer than leading and seconding as someone will have to go to the top, work out exactly where the route finishes (not always trivial if you don't know the crag) then run back round, do the actual climbing and then dismantle everything.
- Some group leaders tend to set up top ropes on classic routes on popular crags on a busy weekend and leave them in place for extended periods. This is a bit annoying if you were hoping to quickly climb that route yourself.
- Some of these groups will be wearing walking boots which increases wear.
- Finally it's true that top roping is regarded as "not really climbing" to some extent but (almost) nobody will have a problem with it as long as it doesn't impinge on what they want to do.

It's fine to top rope stuff as long as you do so considerately, ie head for quieter areas, pick a free route and be sensitive to people who may wish to lead it. Above all make sure you have the necessary skills to set the top rope up safely - if you're not sure it might be better to join a club to find some more experienced people to climb with.

In reply to MikeMarcus:


Not massively.


Some people think it's inferior because the head game/risk is different - indeed it is, but some of us enjoy the physical challenge of climbing much more than the risk. But the main reason is groups hogging routes. If you set up a top-rope then 2 people climb it, then you take the top-rope down, you aren't using the route any longer than you would if leading and seconding. So do it that way (and if anyone asks, tell them you're doing it that way) and nobody will really mind.

In reply to MikeMarcus:



1. 'People at the crag' fall into two camps over this, 'for' and 'against' (plus the 'don't knows' and those who don't understand what the fuss is about).

2. Go and walk past 'Chalkstorm' on a busy weekend at the Roaches; it's one of the better known gritstone slabby E3s, the sort of climb someone might want to test themselves against. Sooner or later you'll spot organised parties doing the VDiffs either side, using Chalkstorm to practice their abseil techniques or hauling each other up the route on top-ropes so they can say they've climbed an E3, which is nonsense of course. Either way, the traffic such activities generates wears away the fine corrugations that make such routes what they are and will eventually make it unclimbable at anything like the kind of grade that's accessible to any but the elite climbers, who probably wouldn't be interested either after it's been destroyed by the more irresponsible type of top-roping party.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Sometimes I enjoy toproping. I have nothing against it.

However I do sigh when I get to a crag with a route in mind and see someone setting up a top rope. More often than not they'll spend a disproportionate amount of time on the line. Whereas someone leading will lead and then second and be done.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Top roping is fine.
Everyone does it.
Just don't hog the route and don't damage the rock.

Job done.

If anyone bothers you about it, ask them if they've toproped before. And if they still have that big a deal with it. Get them to lead the route and let you second it.

Either way, you get to climb the route, and you may learn something watching them lead.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Your absolutely right and this same argument can be used against sport climbing where the 'top rope' comes from the bolt above, rather that from the top of the crag, but the traffic of repeated attempts at something way to hard for the over-ambitious climber, means limestone quickly becomes glassy and polished.

In fact bouldering mats make bouldering safer and encourage heavy traffic on problems (through repeated attempts by the over ambitious), resulting in the same issue of erosion.

In reply to robhorton:
"The "normal" style is " There is no such thing.

" - It's rather annoying if you have queued at the bottom of the route as described or started to lead it to have someone suddenly start setting up a rope from the top." easy... have one climber in the queue and one ready at the top.

" - Even at its most efficient top roping will occupy a route for much longer than leading and seconding as someone will have to go to the top, work out exactly where the route finishes (not always trivial if you don't know the crag) then run back round, do the actual climbing and then dismantle everything." Often not true about the time occupied (some leaders and seconds take ages) and set up is easy with a climber at the top and bottom.

"- Some group leaders tend to set up top ropes on classic routes on popular crags on a busy weekend and leave them in place for extended periods. This is a bit annoying if you were hoping to quickly climb that route yourself." This is a bit more than annoying, its bad practice and completely against the group use guidelines available from the BMC.

"- Some of these groups will be wearing walking boots which increases wear." Only relevant if the climb is too hard and the boots not clean... it squarely fits into the category of don't damage the rock (something some instructors clearly don't care about: name and shame).

"- Finally it's true that top roping is regarded as "not really climbing" to some extent but (almost) nobody will have a problem with it as long as it doesn't impinge on what they want to do." Only regarded that way by idiots. Climbing has many games and we choose the ones we like; top roping is often a precursor to headpoint leads. Idiots exist so some people do have a problem with the top roping and headpointing games but they should be politely ignored (unless route hogging or route damage is an issue)

" It's fine to top rope stuff as long as you do so considerately, ie head for quieter areas, pick a free route and be sensitive to people who may wish to lead it. Above all make sure you have the necessary skills to set the top rope up safely - if you're not sure it might be better to join a club to find some more experienced people to climb with." That's good advice if you are starting out and using top-roping as a transition phase to trad but irrelevant if you enjoy the game in its own right.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

If you're top roping then surely it's equally annoying for you to have set your rope up only for some leader to come and climb your route?

You're not a special flower just because you are leading. The crag belongs to all.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

It's fine. Occasionally people are £!$@s on UKC and there are some good examples on the threads you've found. But you're ignoring things like http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=634508

Some people are under the impression that top-roping is slower than leading. These people have never seen me lead.

In reply to Offwidth:


Happens all the time at crags like Windgather. I don't think quoting BMC guidelines at the groups involved would get you anywhere which raises the question:- under what code, if any, are organised groups from outdoor centres and other similar places operating?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Well, they should be acting under BMC guidelines.... but it's access land. Unfortunately, there's nothing in CRoW that says you can't be an ass.

In reply to MikeMarcus:


My hypothesis is that the sort of people who rage on UKC about top-ropers do so because they're the sort of socially dysfunctional keyboard warriors who find it impossible to actually talk to others at the crag, choosing not to politely ask someone with a top-rope set up to simply move it and instead to consider this to be act of war against traditional ethics and to silently rage about the issue - possibly jangling their hexes at the offending party in a threatening manner - before heading home and venting their fury from the safety of anonymity.
If these people DID approach top-ropers at the crag, they would find that the vast majority are more than happy to do everything they can to share routes with others, and that even outdoor group leaders - that greatest symbol of evil, the Devil made flesh to the tossers who whine about top-roping - are completely reasonable individuals, almost without exception.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Is hogging a route or wearing out the holds any worse than clogging the holds and defacing the rock with white chalk marks?

In reply to Kid Spatula:


Your route ?

As long as people don't hog the route I have no problems with top roping but for myself I would not feel that I had really done the route justice. A little bit of me thinks it's cheating and before I get flamed I have top roped on occasion.

Al

Bloody lead climbers, spending ages on a route, scratching all the gear placements up and faffing around with building belays and bringing up seconds, when all I want to do is solo the route (with no chalk obviously) In my 'far more superior style' than yours.

In reply to MikeMarcus:


Good, you've got the message

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I feel more confident going out to Stannage now knowing that there won't necessarily be a hoard of trad climbers with pitchforks waiting for me at the bottom of the route Obviously I'd be exactly as considerate as I would be if I was leading or soloing.

I actually want to top rope, it's not because I can't lead. As far as I'm concerned the rope is there to protect me, not to test my placement skills and given a choice between a lower and higher risk method of protecting myself I'll take the former. I'm willing to bet that there's more people who break their leg taking a lead fall than top-roping? Having just recovered from a (non climbing related) broken leg myself I've no desire to repeat the experience just so people consider me a 'real climber'.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Just don't do what a group did at my local crag a while ago - tape off an entire section of crag to discourage anyone else, then leave the tape in place over the weekend 'cos they were returning the next week. Then act surprised when locals remove the tape and want to force feed the group leaders the tape. Ha ha.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I'm sharpening my pitchfork now!!!

If there's one thing guaranteed to upset U.K.C. more than top roping, it's spelling errors.

You're going to Stanage and there will be a horde waiting for you

Have fun on the crag and careful with that leg.

In reply to Hat Dude:


And calling the Peak the Peaks

Al

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I used to top rope as a beginner too, and so did most of my friends. I was doing this on southern sandstone, which is the way anyway, but on other rock too.
During all my time at crags I've never noticed anyone getting upset or wound up about it, or saying anything. People just get on with their own climbs.

Once there was a top roper who saw us unpacking our gear, removed his top rope immediately, watched us lead / second (then congratulated us), then once he was sure we'd finished, set it back up again. Probably he'd been reading UKC, but anyway, a good bloke and we wouldn't have minded waiting anyway.

However, as someone says above, if you can safely set up a top rope then you probably have the skills to lead anyway, and this is much more rewarding and why most experienced climbers prefer it.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

If you'd rather top rope, then top rope! I'd suggest top roping outdoors to start with even if you want to lead later.

People are much more opinionated on the internet than in real life

In reply to climbwhenready:


According to the BMC:
"Climbing does not really have any rules. There is no offside, no handball and no penalty boxes, and this is one of the things that make it great. Most people accept that you do not damage the rock and environment in any way, and that whatever you do you should be honest about it, but beyond that, you are free to enjoy climbing in whatever way you want, and the more fun you have while doing this the better."

On a quick search I haven't found any guidelines for organised groups, which leads me to think that if there are any, perhaps they need to be more obvious and accessible.

You'll all be sorry when I onsite a 9a (V V V V V V V V DIF, whatever) on top rope :-p

Seriously, I was expecting to be shot down after my morning read. I really appreciate all the advice, support, and reassurance.

In reply to Andy Morley:
Its rather buried as its been bundled up in the Green Guide here:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=350

...covered mainly in section 11 sustainable crag use.

I'd like to see it given more prominence as a separate pdf (as it once was)

As for Windgather... I use it a lot and its very rare that I run into problems there: nearly all the groups will move ropes if people ask to lead a line as soon as reasonably possible and I've never heard them talk negatively about my soloing (its the best low grade solo venue on grit). Its often a beacon of good group practice... the group behaviour I've seen typically at Ilkley or Almscliffe is much more problematic.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

One of the problems with top-roping is that it doesn’t (in my opinion) make you a better climber. For one thing, it tends to lead to people (I’m largely talking newbies here) attempting routes which are beyond their capabilities so they then have to scrabble their way up the route on a tight rope. While this may leave the person concerned in awe of anyone who can lead the route, it probably doesn’t much improve their chances of leading it themselves. On the odd occasions in the past when I top-roped a route that I thought I might just manage to lead if I’d practised it in this way I have never wanted to go back and lead it, largely because I thought I wouldn’t make it. I never climb well (even by my own lowly standards) when top-roping (or seconding for that matter). All my best routes from the point of enjoyment, satisfaction, etc have been when leading or at least swinging lead. For me, there is much more satisfaction to be gained from leading a route in good style, despite being pushed technically or mentally, regardless of grade. I have been climbing mainly trad, mainly leading, for approaching half a century and still experience that little frisson as the crag comes into view. I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t still be climbing at all if I had concentrated on top-roping and I would recommend anyone new to trad to get into leading almost straight away, especially if they have done some indoor climbing. Today’s gear makes most (not all) trad routes very much safer than they were when I started. The elephant in the room here is probably bragging rights. You won’t impress anyone in the pub by saying you led some nice severes today, but you might if you say you’ve done an E2 – if you forget to mention it was on a top-rope. My climbing exploits have never impressed other climbers, but I am still doing it with my half-century just over the horizon.
If I am to be honest I would regard top-roping as an inferior style of ascent. An on-site beta free lead is the gold standard of trad and I hope it always will be. Top roping is a long, long way down the style pecking order and I hope it always will be. But it isn’t important what old buffers like me think – it’s about personal satisfaction and I doubt you’ll still be climbing in 2066 if you don’t get past top roping. Sorry if this isn’t the question you asked!

In reply to MikeMarcus:

You can top rope all you want mate,no one will say jack shit to you they'll just scurry home and complain about you on here

In reply to MikeMarcus:

hi there, firstly id like to agree with those recommending joining a club and learning the skills thus enabling you to climb outdoors on the grit. perhaps i can dissuade you from top roping for another reason. if you are unsure about leading due to your experience then perhaps your competency to rig a secure anchor could be questionable. my only concern would be this. take care and enjoy the learning experience, i know i did.

In reply to Offwidth:


I kicked off last season at Windgather and because it was early in the season and cold, my climbing partner and I both soloed lots of routes there just to keep warm. There were a couple of parties there, one of which at least was a first day outdoors from a climbing wall. We did get some negative vibes from them - the instructors who took a long time to rig their top-rope anchors (commendable diligence I'm sure) seemed put out when we popped up beside them and meanwhile there was a certain amount of muttering from the people at the bottom of the routes, though no-one said anything directly too us. This mostly took the form of sotto voce comments about 'safety' accompanied by meaningful stares in our direction, which we cheerfully ignored. We certainly didn't do anything to get in their way but I do find that some organised groups demonstrate a sense of entitlement and expect regular climbers to move away and give them a free run. Obviously this is something that will vary from establishment to establishment and from instructor to instructor but in the absence of clear and accessible guidelines, a debate here is as good a way of establishing norms as any.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Top roping is all about what yiou want to get out of climbing. If you want to get good at top roping, carry on top roping. If you want to learn to lead, start leading.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I've taken my niece to Wind gather and setup top ropes for her. She'd do the climb, I'd move the ropes, do another. No one minded.

In reply to Andy Morley:

I've climbed there more times than I can remember and have had few bad experiences and most of those ages back. Chatting to old local solists confirmed my view that good practice is the norm there despite being rammed with top-rope groups at times. Are you sure it was the instructors and not some clients doing the muttering?

In reply to Valkyrie1968:


Once upon a time, after spending an hour fuming about an unused top-rope on a route I wanted to lead, I asked the group leader who promptly removed it. I should have saved myself the angst and asked straight away.

In reply to Dogwatch:


No, the onus should have been on the group leader to offer to move it as soon as he saw you in the vicinity.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Most epically epic post since the dawn of epic posts!!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Many do (thats the common experience I've had at Windgather) but expecting them to proactively look after climbers other than their clients is maybe pushing things in terms of expectation of good behaviour... trad teams shouldn't be annoyed if they have to ask and on grit crags its not obvious what routes are in question.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Actually I totally agree with your post.

In reply to robhorton:


Makes climbing sound like trying to actually put shopping in a BAG at Aldi! ( I put my bag IN the basket, so that the same sweeping motion that would replace the item in the basket, places it in the bag).

This isn't aimed at you robhorton as it wasn't what you had in mind but the above made me think of a climbing friend. He's ex Mountain Rescue and has led more than his fair share but now has emphysema and due to breathlessness will rest on a route and top ropes as he can get breathless very quickly, he also has osteoporosis so falls can be a different issue for him. Funnily enough thinking of him set me thinking about lots of people who climb but are not going to do so quickly as he used to take groups with learning difficulties. The there's 2 super ace climbers I know coming back from having new knees, the retired climber who belays me but only belays now because he has too fake hips and shot mobility - he said he climbed to slowly. All these people have bullet proof reason to be given extra time - but there's also the likes of me, just a wimp, climbing slowly because I don't know how to climb quickly outside!

This thread is really encouraging in that it hasn't just slammed top roping. I would be put off if climbing ever wound up like the Aldi queue with nervous old folk and flustered newbs, there's enough of that in life. To me the outdoors has always been somewhere where community still counts, saying good morning and taking time to be a person with each other.

In reply to flopsicle:

Well said.

On a side note... my site is still running but maybe you were trying to access it with a device/browser that won't support flash.

In reply to MikeMarcus:
Top roping doesn't make you a better climber?
Yeah,right.Any training that helps you to understand movement on rock will make you a better climber.
Getting pumped on top rope will help you to lead easier routes,or that same route eventually on lead,which will help your confidence.John Allen top roped stacks before he staerted his new route explosion.Try not to top rope poorly protected climbs,as this will trash holds and make them more slippy and dangerous.

In reply to robhorton:


Most single-pitch stuff is way too short for that, and it fails to take account of a possible need to lower off if the second gets out of their depth. I would consider that a potentially dangerous and rude course of action to take. It's also very off-putting for a struggling second.

Gear up and get ready, but until the second has topped out don't actually start, unless you're talking multipitch or a very long route.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I'm not sure I expect mind-reading.

In reply to Dogwatch:


No mind reading is required - the group leader just tells any climber in the vicinity that he will remove the top rope if they want him to.

I do this if I have a top rope up at the climbing wall - saves people the awkwardness of asking.

In reply to flopsicle:


Top roping obviously has a place as some routes just cannot be climbed using trad protection and the only options are to solo them or to top-rope them. Top roping can be abused but you could say that of almost anything - from all that I hear, when abseiling is done irresponsibly that can be more of a problem than antisocial versions of top-roping. That could be organised groups abseiling on climbing routes in muddy hiking boots at Symonds Yat, messing up the routes and annoying trad climbers, or it could be similar groups upsetting the landowner at Blackstone Rock which is a sandstone cliff that no-one in their right mind would ever want to climb but which is vulnerable to erosion. I had a long chat with the landowner there the year before last - an outdoor centre had asked him if they could practice abseiling there as a one off, which he agreed to and so they thought this gave them carte blanche to come back and do it whenever they wanted, which they did over the course of 18 months or so until he read them the riot act. Any technique can be abused, but it so happens that top-roping and abseiling are the things that outdoor centres seem to do most often. Not all outdoor centres act responsibly, I think that's the real problem, and on the basis of that particular land-owner's experience, 'community' certainly didn't seem to count for much with the outdoor centre he dealt with; it was the case of them asking for an inch and then taking a mile.

In reply to Offwidth:


Out off the two groups that were there that day, the mutterers seemed to come from a climbing wall that had decided to take itself outdoors, mob-handed, for a first foray at a crag. They all seemed a bit scandalised that we should be soloing - it was as if such things were a long way outside their expectectations as to what they'd find out in the bid wide world. Maybe not quite as much of a reaction as if we'd been climbing topless, which is I seem to remember the particular bete noir of some climbing walls, but something a bit like that.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


(no response needed)


Presumably an off-site lead is watching the route on a video and then ticking here on the logbooks? :P

In reply to MikeMarcus:
There's a well received film on here, posted in the News section no less, showing top roping of Masters Edge at Millstone by two climbers who are, ahem..widely... respected. Albeit in cartoon costume. So if it's good enough for the elite... it's good enough for us minions.

Just, as others have indicted above, respect the rocks and the other crag users.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Yeah, sorry about the spelling mistake. Very embarrassing for a pedant like me.

In reply to MikeMarcus:
I think the reason leading a climb from the ground up has been considered the "normal" style is that this is how mountaineering developed: as a way of ascending more dangerous or inaccessible ground, with a view to reaching a summit.

From what I understand, it is only in the twentieth century that 'climbing' has developed as a more or less independent activity, and only really since the 1930s that climbing outcrops seemed something worth doing (as working-class climbers increased in numbers, changing the terms and categories of the climbing world). Even in the 1950s and 60s, outcrop climbing was often seen as a sub-form of climbing, compared to mountain climbing (e.g Peak grit looked down on for Welsh, Lakeland or Scottish mountains). For example, when he was young Don Whillans, who is now practically synonymous with gritstone, looked down on the 'local boys' who were content with the outcrops, whilst he pined for the Cuillin Ridge and trips to the Alps. And, while we're at it, you cannae exactly top-rope the Cuillin, can you?

So, I think it is this history that has congealed into what some call the "normal" way, whilst top-roping is seen as less prestigious - and less flexible and less ambitious, if more accessible and a way to push into harder climbing (although, the grades themselves are for an onsight lead, not for top-roping). In fact, top-roping has been used by climbers for decades as a way of pushing the limits of climbing (e.g. redpointing, or sending "space age" routes before their time), as well as a way of learning.

In reply to C Witter:

You're nearly right, but not quite The reason mteering developed in that way is that it was the natural way to climb a natural obstacle. It's anthropology more than history. I.e. If you wanted to climb a tree, or a rock, or a pinnacle, or a mountain, you just set off from the bottom. Of course, before about the mid-twentieth century, it was extremely difficult to use any life-saving safety techniques. That only really became possible with modern technology (nylon ropes, protection devices, and belay devices). Before that, the use of the rope was probably more of a psychological aid than anything else, though it could be used to make relatively easy alpine rock ridges moderately safe.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think you may be talking physics, rather than anthropology! Or, biology and geology at least

My impression is that even a hemp line would be adequate to bring up a second on. Isn't that the other half of the old, 'the leader mustn't fall!" concept: "but, well, the second can if they insist." I imagine it'd hold a short fall, too, though runners were few and far between, and would be vital for abseil. I know Walter Parry Haskett Smith climbed Napes Needle solo, but people used ropes and had the concept of leading and following a long time before kernmantle ropes and cams.

In reply to C Witter:


Of course, but the rope was never regarded as any kind of guarantee of safety when leading. And yes, of course, seconds could be brought up pitches on a rope in complete safety. The big weakness was belaying. For many decades direct belaying and various techniques of belaying while moving together Alpine-style were used (and still are). The shoulder belay was commonly used - and many accidents occurred with it. Amazingly, modern running belays didn't really come in until after WWII; before that it was all a matter of short-ish pitches, or very long bold leads. Big advances in safety came (in approximate order from 30s? onwards) 1. karabiners 2. pitons 3. (post-war) nylon ropes (hawser-laid) 4. commercially-made climbing 'nuts' (mid-late 60s) 5. kernmantle ropes (mid-late 60s) 6. harnesses 7. the belay plate (c.1970 - arguably the biggest safety advance of all) 8. Friends and other camming devices.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I would say it is because in the UK we lack books like this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Front-Range-Ropes-Fred-Knapp/dp/096570792X

the existence of which normalises the activity.

Clearly we need someone to quickly put together a "Peak District Top Ropes". Must be a publisher around here somewhere with all the photos etc. ready to go. I wonder......

In reply to David Coley:


Steady. Let's not get carried away!

In reply to C Witter:


They certainly did. Hawser-laid ropes were standard issue from the club locker when I was a student. They held some monster leader falls too.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Be aware that seemingly harmless spells of toproping can lead to this:

youtube.com/watch?v=LM_2Q_JPX8E&

In reply to Dave Garnett:
Yes, I held some monster leader falls in 1968-70 using a waist belay (i.e. rope round waist) and leather gardening gloves, while attached to the mountain with a hemp waistline and Tarbuck knot. The longest fall was of about 90 feet, but that was OK because there was one runner (or rather, one runner stayed in!). The worst was a fall of about 40 feet, direct onto my waist, when my partner fell off the crux of Noah's Warning in the sleet in winter! I.e. he fell right past me and ended up c. 25 below. The impact on my waist was stupendous, but I held him OK thanks to the leather gloves.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Thanks for this - and to Dave, too. Out of interest, what is your sense of attitudes toward climbing on outcrops versus mountains, and leading versus top-roping, back in the 1960s? Did people consider Alpinism as 'the real thing', or look down on climbing outcrops, in the way bouldering is often supposed to have been looked down upon until more recently? Was climbing considered a 'sport' back then, or something else? Any reflections would be really interesting, as I'm trying to find out more about this history. (Although, apologies to the OP for wandering off-topic...)

In reply to C Witter:

I don't quite go back the 60s, I started climbing in 1976. Standard equipment was a Whillans harness and PAs/Gollies/Masters. Kernmantel ropes were available but still thought extravagant for university club use, so a single Viking nylon hawser-laid rope was usual whether it was outcrop climbing or Wales or the Lakes.

I started to have my doubts after I held a big fall at Gogarth (from the finishing grass of the Ramp to below the stance, however far that is) on a waist belay (no gloves). Actually, I mostly remember banging my knees before the belay went tight, I don't think any rope went through my hands at all. We pulled the rope and abbed off but it jammed when we tried to pull it down the first pitch. Since it was getting dark we retreated but in the morning when we went to collect it we could see that it was partly cut through. This was most likely by the loose block that had caused the fall, so my partner had fallen onto the partially cut rope and then we'd both abseiled with it...

I guess I always thought that big multipitch routes were the real deal but we did a lot of gritstone and Peak limestone too. I always enjoyed bouldering as entertainment (probably more than most, the Cromlech boulders, Porthmadoc, gritstone) but a decent day's weather spent just bouldering would certainly have been thought a waste.

I went through a phase of toproping routes I wasn't brave enough to lead, which was a guilty pleasure but it did teach me that I was operating well within my technical limits (far too well within really) and I very definitely didn't plan to fall off leading (and still haven't done so more than a handful of times, even on bolts!).

I also went to walls pretty much constantly, which was probably quite a minority interest in the 70s. I guess this was exactly the turning point in attitudes between the traditionalist and a more modern attitude but it wasn't anything resembling the structured and sustained training of today. It was pretty haphazard and low impact, as a result of which all my joints and tendons still work more or less as well as they ever did!

Certainly I don't think we ever thought of climbing as a sport. Although of course there was some competition to to get up harder pitches, the main point of it was the adventure. However, although some still took the attitude that climbing on outcrops was only training for going to Wales or Scotland, and that was only training for the Alps, I never really thought about climbing that way - I just enjoyed it for its own sake, whatever flavour it came in.

In reply to MikeMarcus:
Hi,

In the unlikely event of anyone having a go, they're most likely being an arse. As with any style of climbing, it's probably best not to stay on the same routes for too long, and particularly so if it's more easily damageable (grit or sandstone), a classic, or there's someone waiting. But that's just good manners and common sense really.

I really don't think you'll have any issue at all with people complaining, especially if you go to pretty much any UK crag other than the honeypot Peak grit crags eg Stanage, Burbage, Roaches and Windgather Iand even there I don't think it'd be an issue really). It looks like you're from Manchester so are lucky enough to have loads of great crags nearby to choose from and a lifetime's worth of great routes to climb in any style you fancy. If you want any recommendations for places that might be good for beginners to toprope drop me a message.

Enjoy,
D.

In reply to C Witter:


First qu. I think there was rather less this 'versus' that: i.e. most climbers did a bit of everything. I was very enthusiastic about local outcrops, because our school happened to be quite close to Harrison's Rocks. I absolutely loved the place. We didn't toprope because we liked toproping, but because that was the only way of doing it, apart from soloing. But we seemed to adapt very fast to leading in the mountains (which is what we were really wanting to do all along) once we left school. We never dreamt of toproping anything in North Wales or even on the gritstone outcrops, which mostly had quite good or adequate protection (occasionally we'd toprope something for fun, though, out of curiosity, that was way beyond our leading grade, e.g. Kayak at Curbar.)

Second qu. No. There wasn't this idea of one versus the other. In those less affluent times you tended to climb on what was possible (going to the alps being expensive, so just a few weeks in the summer if you were lucky.) We went to Snowdonia more than the Lakes because it was nearer Hertfordshire. We hardly ever went to the grit because it was still a long way and we felt we might as well go to N Wales.

It's a fallacy to say that many climbers looked down on outcrop climbing. If anything, rather the reverse. But generally, most climbers did all kinds of climbing rather than obsessively just one type. I.e everyone bouldered a bit but no-one, but no-one, did that to the exclusion of all else.

Climbing was always considered to be more than just a sport (it was typically quite a dangerous adventure), and as far as I'm concerned (because I never got into sport climbing, and the little I did felt too much like turning an outcrop into an 'outdoor climbing wall'), it always has been.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I have no issue with some climbers preferring to top-rope versus lead/second. It's a free country.

My major (long-running) concern is that a lot of nascent climbers believe that setting up a top rope only requires a sling and a carabiner and no gear-placing or equalization skills. This is erroneous.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

If you want to top rope go ahead and top rope. There are no rules about if you should or not. Might be better to stay off the classic lines to save them for those who can lead them. One day you may be able to lead them yourself. You can second with a climber who can lead the route but top roping a route should also be ok.

I work in the outdoors with groups as an SPA and it's all about being courteous to other climbers. I have yet to have a hostile response from other climbers on the crag in ten years. I also climb myself when I'm not working as an SPA and I give the groups space to enjoy their climbing too. If one or two of the clients go on to be good climbers themselves then it's a job well done. Most may not but at least they tried climbing and had the experience.

There's space for all out there on the crag so go out and top rope and so long as you don't hog a route and stay off the difficult classics can't imagine you'll meet any hostility and if you do they should think they were once beginners too.

It wont be long before you want to lead anyway and you'll also learn how to build safe solid anchors.

In reply to Jamie B:


My main annoyance is that somehow people think that setting up a top rope is a neccessary step in climbing progression. Personally I think if someone really wants to get into trad climbing thats what they should start doing. Of course if what people want to do with climbing is top rope feel free.

In reply to bonebag:



Hmm ... a somewhat ambiguous post. You begin by saying top roping is fine, no rules; then suggest that top-ropers should be staying off classics, thereby "saving them" for lead attempts, which is to make a value judgement on top-roping, assigning it second-class activity status.

In reply to bpmclimb:


But surely most climbers would want to do that, wouldn't they? i.e sight lead classic climbs for the richest and most satisfying climbing experience. Seems odd not to want to aim for that. Certainly I had that as a goal for the most classic routes, and would save them up until I felt ready for the sight lead. Cenotaph Corner, Cemetery Gates, Nexus, Vector, Kipling Groove, CB on Scafell, Right Unconquerable, Great North Road, Suicide Wall, and Debauchery being just some I managed to do on sight. For Cemetery Gates I waited 13 years before I felt ready to do it. And Right Unconquerable even longer IMHO, top-roping just is less satisfying than leading on sight. But that is just my opinion, my own value judgement, of my own climbing style. Each to their own, I suppose.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


As a teenager I was so traumatised by witnessing the airtime clocked up by our venture scout group that I ended up waiting 20 years to lead Saul's Crack!

In reply to bpmclimb:


Well, it is second-class. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be allowed or that it can't be fun or useful, but it isn't leading.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Agreed that the majority of climbers set a higher value on leading in terms of personal achievement and satisfaction. I was referring to the tendency to set a higher absolute value on leading, in terms of rights of way, the rules of the road, which mode of ascent takes precedence.

There's some revealing rhetoric we often hear: top-ropers are readily seen as "hogging" the route, whereas a leader having an epic is far more likely to be sympathetically viewed - even if, I would suggest, the lead epic is taking far longer.

In reply to bpmclimb:


I'd say that a 'lead epic' that takes far longer is bad climbing style too. It's quite hard to climb very slowly and well, isn't it? I found that with the harder routes I'd have to do them quite fast. Get a good flow going, etc, putting on runners as fast as possible.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I much prefer leading myself. But I don't see the need to designate someone else's chosen mode of ascent as of lesser status; as far as I can see the only reason for doing that is to justify claiming priority - or maybe boost one's ego.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Agreed, climbing fluently is much better all round. However, we've all had epics - well, I've certainly had my share!

My point was that a less-than-speedy lead/second ascent is far more likely to be received sympathetically -patiently, even - than top-roping. I have heard the word "hogging" used by climbers who've only just arrived at the crag!

In reply to bpmclimb:


There's good reason to respect the careful, 'less-than-speedy' lead if the leader is doing something relatively serious. And there is such a thing as topropers hogging parts of a crag. Not very often, but I can remember at crags like Popular End Stanage or Crow Chin or sections of Burbage South, multiple top ropes hanging down them, not all being used at the same time, so that those areas were effectively put out of bounds to other climbers for many hours.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

IMO that's a thoughtless behaviour issue rather than a top roping issue.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Yes, that's a fair comment. Because I suppose other groups, not just top-ropers, can also 'hog' sections of crag.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Top roping is cr*p. It isn't climbing. Take a ladder to the crag, it will be equally fulfilling.

The essence of climbing is grace and danger. Everything else is an app.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


So says a committed bimbler. I'm inclined to make the same observations for most trad below E2 and sport below 6c. But each to their own.

In reply to Helen Bach:

The point about top-roping is that it is almost like a different sport. A bit like the difference between rugby and snooker.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Snooker is the one that resembles real climbing because it requires skill rather than just brute force, right?

Top roping is fine but (same rules as everything else):

(1) Don't hog routes - be polite and share nicely. Be proactive about this don't wait for people to ask because a lot of people (rightly or wrongly) get quite upset before they are driven to ask. Organised groups doing this can be particularly bad offenders.

(2) Don't wreck routes by:

-> pointlessly working something you can't climb, chances are if you haven't got what it takes then your technique is bad for the rock!

-> crap ropework - you'd be amazed at how much damage a badly setup top rope can cause in a single session (to both the rock and your rope). The advice for southern sandstone really applies everywhere if you're going to top rope - look it up. If you use tree anchors be nice to the trees.

-> choosing classic *** routes to learn your trade on

-> climbing in dirty or inappropriate footwear

People rightly get pissed off when they turn up to do a classic route an find a great group of kids in dirty trainers scruffing up it on a tight top rope and then abseiling on it and when they ask when they can get on the route basically get told to piss off by the group leader.

(3) Don't ever kid yourself that you've climbed at grade X - no one cares about your bragging rights but if you come under the illusion that you've climbed at grade X because you've top roped it and the actually try to lead grade X you could be in for a nasty shock.

My top tip is to get 15-20m of static rope for rigging and improvise some rope protectors. It is so much easier and faster that you can mostly avoid problems (1) and (2).

Seriously consider the advice of people saying "join a club" or "serve and apprenticeship" or "take a lead course" or simply get someone to take you climbing and show you the ropes - it is actually more fun this way.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:
Look at the cam damage on popular grit routes at Birchen and starting to affect VS classics at Stanage. Look at the polish on mountain routes from big-boot, wet-day ascents. Look at all the blown flakes and ex-nut slots damaged by lead falls. Look at leaders dragging up flailing seconds on delicate slabs. Its nothing to do with the game it's about caring for the rock and being polite to other crag users. Top-roping gets a bad name from poor practice in beginners groups but the group leader is the one knowingly behaving badly, not the beginners. Name and shame the buggers, don't blame top-roping.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


A better analogy would be touch rugby and proper rugby.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Yes, actually it was a lousy analogy because I have a much higher respect for championship snooker than for toproping, and yes it involves immense skill.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Yes, that's way better.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd say its more like the difference between car racing and cart racing both are games taken to a high skill level but with one game dealing with much reduced risk.

In reply to Offwidth:


No, prefer touch rugby and proper rugby; one game is a much reduced form, lacking an essential element of the other.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:



Of course top roping is climbing! What else is it?

The primary purpose of language is meaningfully to communicate with other human beings. In order to achieve any communication, there has to be some broad consensus about what words mean. Redefining a word such as "climbing" according to your own whim, stepping outside the normal rage of definition, is pointless.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd say a far better analogy would be back country skiing and piste-skiing. Most people will start off on pisted runs and many will rarely venture further, especially since you're able to go faster and do tricks more easily there with greater convenience and relatively little risk. Back country skiers may be equally convinced that all others are missing out on the 'true' nature of skiing.

In reply to john arran:

Except that piste-skiing is still quite dangerous whereas top-roping involves no risk at all.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:


Yeah, and it's usually much worse than that! The dastardly group leader actively encourages the smelly little ragamuffins to plaster the classic routes in their own faeces, then physically attacks the hapless climbers - before they've even said anything! Later the climbers find the car's been broken into, their IDs stolen, house burgled, children kidnapped ........

In reply to bpmclimb:


That's a bit like saying that swimming with water wings is swimming.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


No, its more like saying swimming without sharks is swimming.

A tight top rope is more like water wings.

In reply to bpmclimb:

You are, of course, quite right but it's not purely a language issue, you have to take context into account. I could for example imagine a diver taking issue in a similar manner because there is a huge difference between a sub-aqua diver and a high board diver. Totally different sports but both are divers.

Al

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
The stateman of a man too distant from the game he describes. I can assure you the risks are real and I have regularly witnessed bad belayers 'conspire' to hurt the climber, they are supposedly safeguarding, through their incompetance. I've even seen dangerous supervised practice in a school group (at Ilkley.... dumb tug-of-war belay set-up with no back-up if the small group pulling fell back and over each other... which they did, nearly dropping the kid on the climb).

In reply to Offwidth:

Well, OK, I'm very distant from it now, but I top-roped regularly on SE sandstone for well over 20 years, hundreds of times, and never saw a single mishap.

In reply to GridNorth:


Hmm .. not sure that analogy is altogether apt. Sub aqua and high board diving are different in almost every respect, completely different equipment, movements, skill set - and one primarily involves movement through the air! By contrast, lead climbing and top roping use the same medium, movements, and largely the same skill set; they just have different ways of arranging safety back-up.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I was making a point about language and context rather than making yet another analogy.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Mea culpa

In reply to MikeMarcus:
I don't mind top roping. In fact I have done quite a bit as most people have. What I do mind is when someone puts a top rope on a route or routes for the whole day and then goes around spraying how they crushed the route.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I did once get angry when a group had set up on stanage and there was 5 or 6 lines taking up most of the classics from Hargreaves over to right hand trinity with several lines not in use but still taking up space. Although it was midweek, still was quite a sizeable section of crag "hogged" for the best part of daylight... Frustrating when I'd had in mind to warm up on a couple of these myself, had it of been a group leading I would have waited my turn but with their group being so large I didn't get a look in. This sort of thing hasn't happened so often, and the odd beginner group setting up a top rope and dismantling it after they've climbed it is alot more common and alot less irritating.

I do kind of look down on top ropers tho. I think it stems from the first ever time me and a friend tried climbing outside on our own and led some easy bolted routes next to some top ropers who thought we were pro's. I laughed then and I'll laugh now. I'm no pro, I just gave leading a go and didn't look back at top roping. Well, not until about e5/6

In reply to Helen Bach:


Eeeeek! You've just trashed 98% of UK! Word.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Have a good time at Stanage, hope you enjoy it! It's a great crag. You'll be surprised to see many people 'leading' on easy routes putting gear in above their heads all the way up. You won't be a 'proper' climber until you can tell the difference

In reply to Robert Durran:


Hi Robert, do you think we should put trad below, say E2 in with top-roping as touch rugby?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


No, but all sport and bouldering could be lumped with top roping as equivalent to touch rugby.

Again, this isn’t trolling, it’s curiosity.

Those who adopt the attitude that top roping isn’t valid/real climbing or is somehow inferior: why on earth would you care how I choose to stop myself falling to the ground and being squished? This question, it seems hasn’t really been answered. Providing neither of us are damaging the rock or pissing people off, I’d never dream of having an opinion on how you wanted to climb and equally I wouldn’t want you to have an opinion on my choices.

For reference I’m not interested in bragging rights. Grades to me are simply a way to push my own progression and I don’t really need to compete against others.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:



So Rob, you'd wish to impose your desire for danger on me would you? Do you not accept that I'm capable of deciding my own acceptable balance between danger and fun and that might be different to yours?

In reply to Helen Bach:


Hey Helen, great to see you back. But don't undersell yourself! As my old mate Dave (and he was crap) said in the 70s, "I don't climb owt below E3." [This being, of course, 70s E3.] Similarly apparently the French originally couldn't conceive of anyone climbing sub-F7a....

So perhaps we might raise the bar just a little. (I'll still end up falling over/under/on top of it.)

Mick

In reply to Offwidth:


Positively Joycean... yet I'd be surprised if it's true.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I know Gordon pretty well... twas a friendly prod. His sound southern sandstone roots are a distance from behaviour in modern indoor walls where bad belaying is most commonly on view.

In reply to Offwidth:

From what I've heard, pre-walls, SS was the honeypot of crap belaying. But hey, let's not argue. It's Monday morning, the sun's shining.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:


Really not true. And very early on, in late 60s, a new regime (spearheaded by Terry Tullis) came in of putting extension slings over the top of the crag to minimise damage to the rock. Terry would also walk around checking that people were belaying well.

In reply to MikeMarcus:


>" Those who adopt the attitude that top roping isn’t valid/real climbing or is somehow inferior: why on earth would you care how I choose to stop myself falling to the ground and being squished? This question, it seems hasn’t really been answered. Providing neither of us are damaging the rock or pissing people off, I’d never dream of having an opinion on how you wanted to climb and equally I wouldn’t want you to have an opinion on my choices."

Correct - the vast majority wouldn't care how you climbed, provided you don't damage the rock, hog routes etc etc. But I think the reason a lot of people view top roping as a lesser form of climbing is quite simple: To climb something implies that a team starts at the bottom & climbs to the top, whether solo, or in a team. In a team, the leader tends to get a tad more credit than the second as they are the one on the sharp end, the second has both the knowledge of seeing the leader do the route & the security of their rope going upwards! This applies to single pitch, multi-pitch & mountain climbs.

However with top roping you're talking a pre-placed rope & single pitch with very little of the above applying apart from maybe seconding a single pitch route. This used to be known as practice or training......

In reply to bpmclimb:


Maybe it's because it's much more engaging to wait and watch a leader having an epic on a route rather than someone sitting on a top rope!
Although I've found that sometimes if the leader is particularly alarmingly incompetent it's a little too engaging!

In reply to MikeMarcus:


I think the question has been answered. As long as you are being considerate then most people are fine with it.


As your climbing career progresses, I think you develop a different perspective on risk as you start to understand your own limits. I've not been climbing that long and can easily remember VDiffs feeling very risky and scary, but now I would consider soloing a friendly VDiff.

You may see leading as highly risky, and that's fine, but your perspective may change if you try it and then start to develop your abilities.

In reply to Barrington:


So did bouldering, but now very few climbers would deny that bouldering itself offers a perfectly reasonable avenue for climbers to get something fulfilling out of climbing, even though they may themselves not share that preference and not wish to spend much of their time bouldering. I can't see much of a difference with top-roping; it may not be for everyone, and it means that climbers will often be on physically harder routes in less-risky situations than if they were leading, but it's undeniably a credible option for climbers wanting to challenge themselves on rock.

In reply to john arran:

I always think piste skiing to ski touring is like sports climbing to trad.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

In which case we pretty much agree since I always think sport climbing and top-roping are pretty much the same thing, once you're over the fear of taking small and usually safe falls.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

A set of nuts costs about the same as 40 m of static rope, just saying

I dont have an issue with someone toproping a route. On the Norwegian trad crags loads of people toprope and it is much more prevalent. Most topropers are fine and if they get satisfaction from it then fair dos. The issue comes when they just throw ropes over without checking if anyone is on the route or toprope a classic line multiple times blocking the route for a number of hours. If you are considerate and don't hog a route then you shouldnt have any issues.

In reply to JimboWizbo:

Err, and your point is?

In reply to JimboWizbo:

You want to toprope on a static rope?

JW

In reply to MikeMarcus:

'So Rob, you'd wish to impose your desire for danger on me would you? ' Crikey, you got 8 likes for THIS?

I'm not about to impose anything on anyone, if someone wants to sit at home and play games all day that's fine, but for me, the essence of what climbing was/is about was the combination of judgement, skill and physicality - with the unique edge of commitment, danger and risk. You'll never know until you try, so maybe you'll never know.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Agreed. To me, it's just so baffling that people are asking this question (not re. the hostility, but the relative lack of enthusiasm for TR). Great climbing has all the things that bouldering and TR has got (I, like most climbers, was quite an enthusiastic boulderer and TRer), but with so much more, particularly the incredible sense of moving into a different dimension with the exposure, and the vastly bigger psychological dimension, full of fear and adrenalin. Why on earth should this suddenly need explaining? No one's decrying bouldering or top-roping - I did a lot of both. Just pointing out that it's obviously a less involving (i.e. life-involving) 'game'.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Hi ,
No one should have a problem with you doing this at all, there are no rules but several important points have been made , do not hog the route or trash the rock with repeated attempts and also be mindful how you set up your top rope.
I have seen some dreadful examples if this on my local Northumberland crags where rope rub erodes the soft rock , so use a long sling to avoid this.
I strongly agree with other posts about seconding some experienced climbers , you will learn about gear and belays, multi pitch routes will open up to you and I bet you lots of beer that your first lead will stick in your mind over and above any top roped route. A hard lead ( for you) be it VD or E7 , with gear engineered and placed with your heart pumping , arms screaming , adds a wider element to the whole game.
Have fun , and I may be wrong but I bet in a short time you will be leading and loving it!

In reply to Helen Bach:

If you want to play that game then you can argue that there are only 4 or 5 real climbers in the UK.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

You might find this recent post interesting:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=636806

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I would argue that unless you are actually falling off then you aren't really 'leading' - you are just climbing within your ability and not as hard as you should, so there isn't really that much real risk (except on sketchy routes). I say this as a massive coward who has never fallen off outside leading, and basically never falls off inside leading either.

Perhaps the difference between leading and top-roping is more like the difference between rugby union and rugby league?

Or scrambling and bouldering - one is easy but a bit risky if you choose it to be, the other is hard.

All outcrop climbing is just training for the mountains, after all... :P

In reply to andrewmcleod:


This really is nonsense. You will probably remember that there was an old adage that 'the leader never falls' because, on many routes, you would die if you fell off, or be very badly injured. But that didn't mean that people didn't climb close to their limit. I think Joe Brown hardly ever fell off, if ever. In my climbing I had one quite big lead fall and two v small ones, in 40 years, but I can't remember how many times I came extremely close to falling off and only just managed to hold it together. Dozens of times.

And do you think people soloing hard routes should fall off ... ??? ! ? !

Just to lighten the tone, let me use a glorious mixed metaphor that Nick Clegg's just used today: you are talking '24-carat bilge'

In reply to andrewmcleod:

0/10

but you hooked one at least

In reply to Derry:


(this thread has passed my threshold for 'no further useful information will be delivered, and it exists only for entertainment purposes)

Still arguably true for sport routes (and possibly safe trad) though...

(PS just noticed a typo in my post - 'as hard as you should' should have been 'as hard as you could')

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Thanks a lot Dave!

In reply to Valkyrie1968:

' possibly jangling their hexes at the offending party in a threatening manner'

:-D