UKC

I was searching for some obscure information on Windgather and this thread popped up in the search list which ... whoosh...threw me back 13 years into the thick of the definitive versus commercial debate (why I got started in guidebook work).

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=43721&v=1

Anyone else had any similar accidental time shift experiences here?

In reply to Offwidth:

Well that was a bit spicy- I'd forgotten how good that thread was. As an aside, I wonder if the new Yorkshire Git guides and Over The Moors, which I love, would've been as good without the pressure from Rockfax guides building back then ?

In reply to lummox:
My involvement with the BMC and YMC was only because I knew they would do things right, in terms of the look and useability and sensitivity to the majority of punters who buy the books. It was great being a cog in the big volunteer teams that produced those wonderful volumes. It isn't all positive: there is still plenty of damage in the community from the disputes and some of the introspective bad habits of the definitives could easily come back if they forget again the importance of responding to the needs of the wider climbing public who buy the books. What was going on then at Stanage in terms of the huge number using anything but the 2002 BMC definitive guide (and the major issues of the BMC Wye) should never be forgotten.

In reply to Offwidth:

On the plus side, we hopefully wont see the Revd Kocsis' gurning face on a guidebook pic again ; )

In reply to lummox:

I would be amazed if that turned out to be true. Lancs, Sinai, SW CC guides....

In reply to Offwidth:

Oh God.. thanks for that.

In reply to lummox:


You'd just get a picture of his dog, these days.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

At least Frank is handsome.

In reply to lummox:


Seems a bit harsh.

In reply to Chris Harris:

I don't understand what was harsh ? The thread was spicy and I enjoyed reading it - what's the problem ?

In reply to lummox:


Yorkshire Git........

In reply to Chris Harris:

excellent typo ! Well self knowledge is supposed to be a good thing isn't it ??

In reply to lummox:

Genius Freudian slip

In reply to Offwidth:

Could run to several volumes.....

In reply to Offwidth:

For those of us who weren't around here back in 2003, would someone case to summarise what the thread was about? It seemed to be about Rockfax copying (duplicating?) info from BMC guide books but its kind of hard to tell. What was the outcome?

In reply to andyjohnson0:

Related to http://www.rockfax.com/news/2007/11/08/reflections-on-the-guidebook-debate-... and http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=270138 by any chance? Fascinating.

In reply to andyjohnson0:

I've not revisited the thread, but it came down to whether the BMC had copyright on route names and lines and if Rockfax were ripping them off. Fortunately common sense prevailed and we have the wide variety of superb guidebooks avaliable today, all kickstarted by peak gritstone east.

In reply to Monk:
I guess it's pretty easy to understand why things needed to be 'thrashed out' as it were though, given the long history of voluntary work behind guidebooks, and I agree about common sense prevailing.

In reply to Offwidth:

Offwidth, that was a great link, it was before my time on here. I got totally drawn in. It's difficult to decompose stuff, but I can't help thinking that those Rockfax guides were at least the catalyst for guidebook change for the better in the UK. Where do you think we'd be without that kick in the pants?

I popped into Outside yesterday and picked up a couple of guides for a trip. I don't know if you've seen it , but the new Wired selective to the Lakes is really nicely produced, proper layout, topos and excellent photos. For my sins, in 35+ years climbing, the lakes, like Scotland are a mystery to me. My climbing Hadrians wall extends from Hutton Roof diagonally up to Back Bowden, so I'm going to make the effort this year. (Maybe not Scotland ) The guide looks brilliant for my purposes.

Which brings me to Lancashire! Another black hole for me, except for the brilliant Craig y Longridge. This time I picked up the new bouldering guide, which again is really excellent for the same reasons as the Wired guide. I've just got one question. The main reason I hadn't even looked in the guide before was probably the most uninviting cover photo ever. If you open the guide up, you're suddenly transported to Bowland and gorgeous moors. Maybe I'm just not man enough for Lancashire?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

No outsider is man enough for Lancashire!?

I think the effort in the Lancs bouldering mirrored what was done in the BMC and YMC grit guides. The enthusiasm shines through from the big team involved to the ordinary punters using the guides. My concern is that definitive teams never forget what went wrong before, especially the risk of becoming dominated by a small group who are introspective and out-of-touch.

I like the idea of the Wired guides and am surprised it didn't happen 5 years back... definitive producers re-using their detailed work to produce a selective in their own style. A mate of mine was telling me in the pub on Thursday night that the brand new Pembroke wired guide looks fabulous as well.

Anyhow, even though I expected the guidebook stuff would distract, anyone else had a nostalgic rush from a UKC post?