UKC

My local wall recently reset a steepish section of wall after pressure from some 6a climbers that there weren't enough easy routes up this particular section. This was a shame as the previous batch of routes were particularly well set and had not been up long and the next routesetter wasn't that experienced and the new routes were poor by comparison.

But it made me think. If 6a climbers want to climb on the steeper sections shouldn't there be far more of it.

Personally I don't think vertical sections at walls are that useful. The sticking out nature of bolt on holds makes it hard to set routes on vertical that don't have lots of semi-rests. Also for training value I think vertical is largely a waste of time. Mostly good for low intensity finger stamina I suppose but not much else. Overhanging routes seem to be where you train arms, shoulders and core. Fingers can also be trained much better without resorting to tiny, unpleasant crimps.

Of course some vertical, and slab sections are very useful for beginner climbers. So I'm not saying everything should be overhanging. Just that it would be better if the balance was shifted away from vertical sections which seem to make up the bulk of many walls.

In reply to stp: You're right. Most walls aren't steep enough. Which is a pity.

Andy F

In reply to stp:

I think if walls needed to rely on the income from those just looking to train hard they'd be lucky to exist at all! For a huge number of people it isn't just about finger strength and being assured no rest, it's for fun, it's trying to figure stuff out, enjoying movement, having a bloody good laugh at the pure mental stuff people end up saying - all that stuff.

Both walls I attend have steep training areas, the larger venue has a steep crack training wall (that sounds SO wrong!). The roped areas are very mixed but the steep lead wall has a f7 plus most of the time. The thing is though, I don't think the venue or any of the training available in it would exist without us punters, kids clubs and parties.

In reply to stp:
Are you climbing at The Foundry or Awesome?
I'd prefer more steep climbing too, but the majority of climbers at the wall aren't using the steep stuff (or will nip in, do one route, then head back to the vert or slabs).

In reply to stp:

The routes were spot on at first...now its a waste
Why complain about not enough 6a..why not work abit to climb the ones set and get a sense of achievement out of it, if its aw sheff your on about its reyt pissed me off. The yann routes kicked arse 💪

In reply to stp:

I think a decent route can be set on a wall of any angle, if the setter is good enough.

In reply to stp:
Problem is that 6a/6b routes on the steep portions of AW or Foundry just ends up as pointless jug hauling. Ok if you've never been out the big overhangs before, but not great climbing. To make that angle 'interesting and useful'necessarily ups the grade well beyond 6a.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


The problem at awesome is that the massive overhang is normally empty because the majority of climbers just can't do the routes. By putting some easier routes on it it gives more lines so people aren't waiting to get on something and also gives lower grade climbers a chance to shit themselves too.

In reply to stp:

Most of the stuff I climb in Portland is vertical or slightly off vertical so training on similar angles inside is appropriate and most useful. Slabs and vertical climbs tend to me more technical than overhanging routes which, in my opinion, are mostly about strength and stamina so there are advantages to training on all angles. Plus exclusively climbing overhangs will screw you unless you do tonnes of antagonistic training.

In reply to Yorkieboy:


Yep that's it. Glad I'm not the only one.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


That's true but I think it's hard to reproduce the technical challenges of outdoor limestone with fluoro pink holds that always jut outward. Most indoor vertical routes aren't nearly as technical as, or particularly similar to, outdoor routes.

In reply to deacondeacon:


But I'm wondering now if that's because there's not much easy stuff on the steeper walls. I also suspect some climbers avoid steeper walls because they're a bit more intimidating. I suspect if there was more steep stuff more people would just get on with trying them. As it is I think maybe the steeper walls perhaps appear as if they're only for better climbers which could also be off putting.

In reply to stp

Sure, but it's still closer than practicing on a juggy overhang and it teaches a bit about balance, which you don't get on overhung routes. I don't think there's a lot to learn on overhangs. They just make you strong and help with stamina. They are fun though.

In reply to stp:

All I really want to do at the wall is swing about on buckets until I fall off after a few laps, so Awesome Sheffield is brilliant for me. I use a lot of the routes on the main overhang up to the first chains or sneaking off up the sides for laps as the whole roof is a bit much (really, quite a lot too much tbh).

In general, the main area of AWS is superb: loads of super-steep jugs, pretty-damn steep technical, and mildly steep fingery. Sometimes it gets a bit busy on the less steep bits, but there's always something to do. I'm not really arsed about the vertical stuff (not much good for stamina training) but it seems to be popular so there's clearly not too much of it; and the super-steep isn't that well used, but then it takes a lot practice to get into since it's so upside-down. I'm just glad they built it that steep, cause I can swing about on jugs and still get so tired I fall off - it's ace!

Vertical indoor walls are crap for training, but most people at the wall aren't there to train. And at the walls I've trained at (Leeds, AWS and the now defunct Edge) there was enough overhanging stuff to keep me fit. No complaints from me, the balance seems sensible.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


Steep technique is something that takes a lot of learning, and it's really useful. Climbing naturally and efficiently through steep ground is what stops you getting pumped out of your skull on routes outdoors (if you like steep trad routes e.g. Pembroke). Also, if you can hang onto big holds all day in the wall, you'll find it easier to hang around placing gear and working out moves on a route. Steep routes are great training.

If I want to get better technique, finger strength and power, I'll go bouldering - climbing a vertical wall with stupid sticky-out holds doesn't translate well to trad climbing at all. I think "technical" indoor climbing (weird moves between brightly coloured sticky-out holds) is just its own unique skill and doesn't translate to anything outdoors.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


Well you're saying that as if strength and stamina don't matter. Yet they are two of the most important things, just as important as technique.

Also I wasn't necessarily meaning very overhanging routes. I think moderately overhanging walls, like around 10 degrees, are vastly superior to vertical climbing. I agree with Jon that there's a lot of technique in steep climbs too.

The nice thing about climbing and training on steep stuff is when you do go back to vertical it all feels suddenly quite easy.

In reply to stp: i agree with you - one of my local walls has a lot of steep ground and while I initially cursed it, now I love it. I'm getting stronger, and the big holds on steep terrain are leaving me far less wrecked than crimping.

If you think steep walls can't be technically interesting you have a setting problem. The aforementioned wall changed setter and the improvement was enormous. Plus you can fall off a lot more and not get banged up

In reply to flopsicle:

I agree with you that the economics of a wall are paramount. We definitely don't want the walls to go out of business.

However it seems to me that if 6a climbers are wanting steeper climbs then the group of climbers from 6a and above is probably the vast of majority users.

I don't think there's any reason to think that 90 degrees is some magic angle, perfect for most people. I think it just coincides with being easy to build. Ideally I think a range of angles makes a wall more interesting, including just a few at 90 degrees.

In reply to wbo:

All good points and I totally agree that good route setters make a world of difference to any wall.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


Nonsense. Theres at least as much to learn about how to climb overhanging ground well as there is any other angle. Theres an awful lot of people out there who have terrible overhanging technique. I'm going to guess that they probably include a lot of people who think that overhangs are just about strength and stamina.

In reply to stp:

I'm not sure I've understood your reply but I think you mean because x climber wants to access the steep it means x climber wants more steep. If that was what you meant I don't think it's correct. Variety, in it's own right has value.

There's 4 slab panels at notts that have just been reset offering a shed load of fun for us numpties and the god like climbers such as yourself. Granted they have fully textured walls to play with so skill on features counts but for fun, balance and ingenuity and 16 routes to play I cannot agree it hasn't got plenty of educative as well as fun potential.

I make use of routes below my grade by reinventing them to train a skill, such as giving myself a rule that each move must be dynamic, or only one hand, or just one hand on the arete.

Are the majority of climbers f6b and over at Sheffield? Maybe you have mostly awesome climbers or maybe the grades are much softer. No way in hell are the majority f6b and over at notts.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Agreed. I've plateaued for 30 years outdoors at around E1 (and at 65 I'm not expecting to improve much now) but I've found juggy overhanging routes up to 6a great for precisely that - giving me the strength and confidence to hang on, place gear and work out the moves on vertical terrain. Pull-up training does similar, but it's not nearly as much fun.

Martin

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


I'd say there's more to learn on overhangs than on other angles. It's more important to to be efficient and keep good body tension, keep your centre of gravity close to the wall, pace yourself well, because you'll get punished on steep routes if you're not doing those things well.

And you do need balance on overhangs too. Ever seen somebody flag on an overhang?


It does give you good stamina, probably won't get you much stronger, unless you're trying really hard, and most people I see down the wall don't try that hard. To get stronger the individual moves need to be hard, so you're better off getting stronger by bouldering, or training specifically.


They are fun, and the best part is you can fall off them all day with no consequence, so you can really push yourself.

In reply to stp:


Possibly in Sheffield, but not in Suffolk. Perhaps the majority of climbers can reach 6a, for one or two climbs in a session, but the number who only climb at 6a and above is not, I suggest, the vast majority of users.

Martin

In reply to Pete Dangerous:

As others have said, this is nonsense. Too many climbers assume that getting up an overhang is not technical. There is a huge amount of technique involved. Just watch people at the wall struggling on steep ground and most will be too 'front on' using inside edges of feet pushing their shoulders and backsides outwards. They would benefit hugely from learning steep techniques like outside edging, rotation of hips, flagging, drop knees etc. There is also a lot of technique involved in learning when and how to find rests on steep ground.

As for overhangs "just" making you strong ... exactly! That is the very reason why I and many others train on steep walls because strength and stamina (along with technique of course) will help us up many a route.

In reply to stp:



Exactly. Too steep and you lose relevance and punters. Gently overhanging feels best (for most) training needs

In reply to stp:
I disagree completely.

Really well set corners on vertical walls can be excellent training, as can slabs or vertical walls (which if well set can also be pumpy). As a middle aged man I find that walls have too many overhanging walls and they tend to injure my elbows. I wish indoors could better replicate what I climb outdoors as I don't suffer nearly so many problems outside (on sport or trad).

I can't see the point in training on consistently overhanging stuff and then mostly climbing walls of quite a different nature outside.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
i have a mate from the wall whose climbed indoors for 6 years and cranking 7b/+, but has only sport climbed outdoors 2 or 3 times before. He went out and got on some trad routes the other week. Pulled through E2. Consistenty and comfortably according to my other mate who watched him.

And you're saying that indoor climbing doesn't help you climb outdoors at all?

In reply to Yorkieboy:
...if its aw sheff your on about its reyt pissed me off. The yann routes kicked arse 💪

Translate please for those of us down south!
We also need to remember all the injuries form the'Barchar ladder'...!

In reply to elliott92:



What? Who said that?
I said


Incidentally, there was some other thread (I think) about indoor climbers who climb about 7b frequently doing trad at about E2...

In reply to stp:

I have not been to many walls but Leeds wall has a good mix in my opinion.
Some slabs, some vertical, some vertical with overhanging sections and some overhand all the way.
Plenty for everyone at all skill levels.

In reply to Wsdconst:


Seriously? The 7as on it are jug fests. I once saw a climber tell off a route setter at aw, as there was no 5+/6a routes on it

He responded 'if I bolt a f**king ladder onto it, it will be 6c' hahaha

In reply to ashtond6:


Exactly. I think that a lot of people who climb in the 6s are so intimidated by the enormous roof that they don't bother doing the routes up to the first chains - which is daft, as there's a whole load of good 6b jug-fests that aren't getting used much.

In general, I think at AW they're good at setting relatively easy routes on huge jugs up massively steep bits of wall, without them being boring.

In reply to stp:

Indoor routes are useful to train stamina or have fun.

If you want to become a better climber leave the rope at home.

In reply to elliott92:


That should be well within his comfort zone assuming the inddor grades where he climbs are reasonably close to outdoors - which they may not be.

I'd have thought. 7b/+ should equate to well-protected E5. Probably E6 if he doesn't mind running it out a bit.

In reply to stp:


Tell them to stop whinging and get stronger. Then they can climb on the steep stuff. (n.b. I get spanked on steeper stuff indoors as I'm weak, so this is in no way an "elitist" view)

In reply to ashtond6:


They may be jugfests, but they're still 7a and not 6a/b/c.

In reply to ianstevens:


Not everyone has the time to train, nor the physical ability. If some token 6a routes can be set on the steep stuff then they should be set.

In reply to stp:

I climb at a wall where the vast majority of both routes and problems are overhanging; I'm not a fan. I appreciate having a nice selection of steep stuff, but not to the exclusion of everything else. Especially with the unimaginative route-setting that equates to 'lower-grade steep route = jugfest'.

In reply to Toerag:

Well that's part of my point - some walls are just too steep for 6a.

In reply to stp:


The routes I find most enjoyable are those at, or just above, my limit on vertical walls*. Personally, I don't think there are enough technical, crimpy, balancey routes being set at 6c or above on the vertical. This just goes to show that people prefer a variety of different things and that a good route setter should set a good variety of problems.

* the kind of pump you get on a technical vertical wall is a very special thing. Not enough pump to make you fall off but it just won't go away until you either finish or make a mistake.

In reply to stp:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=636288 This thread I tihnk is a fine example of the problems of slabby routes at walls. Fall down a slab, you may well hit something, and fall down a vertical corner and the chances are too high of clipping a jug.

As an older climber I appreciate the merits of a vertical, fingery route - I was working one last night. And today my hands are wrecked, and not altogether in a good way I would not have these problems on a steep route with large rounded holds

In reply to wbo:

I've always found gently leaning walls, 5 to 15deg with some 3d features (grooves, overlaps etc) make for the most relevant (uk sport) training. They're steep enough to fall of with little worry and easier routes don't require a series of huge ladder rungs. The big roofs and prows making up the 'main wall' in most centers might be fun but unless you're training for some upside down overseas stalactite dangling they're just a bit too much.

Holds don't have to be sticky-outy features that you can squat on for a rest whenever you want, there are plenty of smooth 'dome with a crack/pocket' style holds that are relatively poor underfoot making for interesting routes. Likewise the dual textured holds when used as undercuts or sidepulls can be big and good for the hands but no rest when it comes to standing on them.
jk

In reply to stp:

I find this rather condescending. A good wall will have difficult, balancy routes also on the slabby sections, or offwidth cracks that can easily be graded at least in the 7s (hard to say, for sure, as it such a question of personal preference).

Anyway, at my local wall at least two thirds of the area is overhanging, from a gentle tilt outward to 45 deg overhangs and even a few horizontal roofs. More than enough for my personal taste.

CB

edit: I agree about the point made somewhere upthread that overhangs are the best endurance training tool, as you can safely push yourself until you fall off into space.

In reply to ashtond6:

No matter how many jugs there is if you can't hang on upside down it's not gonna help you.i was there last night and although it was fairly busy hardly anyone used the middle section of the overhang. You might be able to climb 7a overhangs but most people can't. I'm fairly confident climbing either side on the overhang but must admit the roof section intimidates me.

In reply to stp:

Steep walls take more floor space, so they are very uneconomical.

In reply to jkarran:
I'd have to agree with most everything you say. I don't especially like the super overhanging caves as I'm too fat to get up them anyway, but the best routes i.m.o. are in that gently overhanging range with big, interesting and pumpy rounded things

And , as ever, good routesetting makes or breaks a section of wall

I can't see these as being especially inefficient costwise Jonas?

In reply to Wsdconst:

I'm not saying 7a is easy. I'm saying that 6c/7a is basically the easiest thing possible to set on that roof. Apologies if it came across that way

Remember aw brands itself as a national competition centre or something similar

In reply to ashtond6:

Ahh I see what you mean now. I think the Problem is people really want to try the over hang but can't climb the grade, what you're saying makes sense so I suppose those people still won't be able to climb it anyway.maybe they need to install a stannah stairlift instead.

In reply to Wsdconst:


Or create slightly more 3d prows like Harrogate has that allow you to reach the chains either directly up the underside of the prow or by a rising diagonal in grooves and on less steep panels. Much like the real world.
jk