UKC

When did people stop talking about their being a good trail (eg in An Teallach thread) and using the word "track" instead? And why?

In reply to Robert Durran:

When did people stop spelling 'there' correctly?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I guess you break trail, not track. But in the absence of snow, you're definitely on a path, not a trail!

In reply to doz:

Oops!

But it does completely baffle me that my original post gets 5 "dislikes" and no actual replies to my question. How can you "dislike" a perfectly good question? What's wrong with people?

In reply to Michael Gordon:


I agree, my reference to the An Teallach thread make it clear that I am talking about a trail/track made by feet in snow.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've always thought of 'trail' as being an American description, ie trail-head.
So I always follow a track or a path even in the Winter but rarely follow a trail.

TRACK
trak/Submit
noun
1.
a rough path or road, typically one beaten by use rather than constructed.
"follow the track to the farm"
synonyms: path, pathway, footpath, lane, trail, route, way, course
"she pedalled her bicycle up the gravel track to the south porch"
2.
a prepared course or circuit for athletes, horses, motor vehicles, bicycles, or dogs to race on.
"a Formula One Grand Prix track"
synonyms: course, racecourse; More
verb
1.
follow the trail or movements of (someone or something), typically in order to find them or note their course.
"secondary radars that track the aircraft in flight"
synonyms: follow, trail, trace, pursue, shadow, stalk, dog, spoor, hunt (down), chase, hound, course, keep an eye on, keep in sight; More
2.
(of wheels) run so that the back ones are exactly in the track of the front one

TRAIL
treɪl/Submit
noun
1.
a mark or a series of signs or objects left behind by the passage of someone or something.
"a trail of blood on the grass"
synonyms: series, stream, string, line, chain, row, succession, train More
2.
a long thin part or line stretching behind or hanging down from something.
"smoke trails"
synonyms: wake, tail, stream, slipstream More
verb
1.
draw or be drawn along behind someone or something.
"Alex trailed a hand through the clear water"
synonyms: drag, sweep, be drawn, draw, stream, dangle, hang (down), tow, droop; archaicdepend
"my hands were trailing in the water"
2.
walk or move slowly or wearily.
"he baulked at the idea of trailing around the shops"
synonyms: trudge, plod, drag oneself, wander, amble, meander, drift; Mor

In reply to Robert Durran:

I much prefer trod, but that is probably a Pennines thing.

In reply to Gone for good:

If you're talking about a snowless path then I agree that 'trail' seems an American term. However,

TRAIL
treɪl/Submit
noun
1.
a mark or a series of signs or objects left behind by the passage of someone or something.
"a trail of blood on the grass"

...seems to fit in relation to evidence in snow. A 'trail of footprints' if you like.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Yes, my point was that footprints in the snow was always referred to as a trail. You certainly "break trail" in snow. So when and why did the word "track" start replacing it? You certainly don't "break track". I've read the clumsy "put in a track" though.

And while we're at it, when did people stop "holding" and start "catching" falls when belaying? And why? Are these Americanisms?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Another Americanism is the use of 'bring' instead of 'take'.

How long before the sport climbers are the only ones using the word take?

In reply to Robert Durran:

"Trail" seems to have become relatively more common as a written word over the past 200 years. Of course we have no idea of the context or even if it is the noun or the verb, but it's does support the idea that it could be American, or simply 'modern' usage.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=trail%2Ctrack&year_start=...

In reply to cuppatea:


never heard that one before

In reply to Robert Durran:

We could all just use the phrase "boot-pack" instead...

In reply to Robert Durran:

You're wading into a morass of evolving usage here, Robert. Dictionary definitions aren't really keeping up. In the footpath repair trade we used to think that 'trail' was the American synonym for 'track' (Aus/NZ) or path (UK), while 'track' in the UK tended to imply a vehicular route. 'Trail' seems to be making rapid headway, for instance through UK long distance routes ('Ways') now being bundled as 'National Trails', while it appears mountain bike paths must be 'trails' to be cool.

But when it comes to ploughing through snow, you break trail and leave a track behind you ... semantic porridge!

In reply to JR:



Isn't that a skiing (or rather not-skiing) term?

In reply to Bob Aitken:


I don't. I break trail, leaving a trail.

And I hold falls. I catch balls and colds.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, it's a not skiing term, but it's definitely crossing into the alpine world... Much to many's ranting disgust.

In reply to JR:

Well I'm certainly disgusted.

And while I'm in a ranting mood, what's all this nonsense about calling boulder problems "boulders".

And don't get me started on using "multipitch" as a noun FFS.

And any use of the suffix "-fest" sends me into an apoplectic rage. eg "blocfest".......if it really HAS to happen, it's a f****** "bouldering festival" (which involves doing boulder problems, possibly on boulders)

Right, I'm off to burn of my rage at the climbing gym.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Send it, dude! Crush the blocs.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Sorry! You'll notice it much more now.
I must be getting old, I'm turning into a perndant .

Here's a good one for you:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7993
"What to bring in the car"

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've generally used the term track or footprints or even steps to describe marks left by passing through snow, but never trail - this sounds very american and I suppose the use of "trail" came in when people's diet of TV included a large amount of North American continent content. I've always thought of the word trail on this side of the Atlantic to be more commonly used as a verb, but then I'm old fashioned.

I can remember the use of the word trail back to the 60s when Blue Peter ran a series of readings of "Children of the Oregon Trail" and that seemed an un British usage to my young ears.

In reply to cuppatea:

There's a sense of direction involved in "bring" and "take". Bringing something to "here", Taking it with you to "there".

Often not got the hang of by non native Wnglish speakers like my wife. And the reverse usage is common N of the Great Wall of Northern England.

In reply to Robert Durran:



Surely the gymnasium?

It's a path. Trail is American. Track is something landrovers use. You might follow a trace in the Alps, if you are cool, or Italian.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Agreed. And what about the revolting modern trend of using the word "venue" to refer to some sublime ice-choked corrie rather than a 1970s nightclub with brown and orange deep plush carpeting, brass rails and an MC sporting a red velvet jacket, slacks and bow tie?

In reply to MG:


Yes, I agree, I loathe the use of "trail" for path but this is about a trail in the snow. A trail in the snow consists of tracks, but the singular "track" should not be used for trail. I suspect the distinction is too subtle for the uneducated masses.


Heaven forbid. I'd rather take my chances with a virgin crevasse field.

In reply to felt:


Yes, horrible isn't it.

But what really makes my blood boil are the terms "wild camping" and "wild swimming" used by brain washed idiots who don't seem to realise that we've all been sticking our tents up wherever or taking a dip in a river or loch on a whim since the dawn of time.

In reply to wercat:


Are we seriously saying that there are people who shout "bring" to their belayer rather than "take" when they want the slack taken in and the belay locking off?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Probably no more so than there are learner training colleges in the north-east.

In reply to felt:


Lost you there..........

In reply to Robert Durran:
Right, I'm off to burn of my rage at the climbing gym.
' off to burn off'

One of my many personal hates is the use of sat instead of sitting. eg. I am sat on a ledge. I am sat at my computer being pedantic.

In reply to Robert Durran:

In other words re "bring" in a belaying context, although there might well be variant usage, it's not always global in application: that'll learn you (teach you), OK; learner training college (teacher training college), not so much

Or perhaps I've misunderstood you?

In any case, why on earth are you discussing trivial semantics rather than glorying in the spangly heavens?

In reply to felt:

At least I havn't hijacked a thread glorying in the spangly heavens with trivial semantics.

Anyway, this reminds me of my uncle having a good rant about the use of the word "abseil": ............ Germanic nonsense........ they'll have us goose stepping across the glaciers before you know it......... nothing wrong with the Anglo Saxon "rope down"..... good enough for Mummery and Whymper* etc etc. Fortunately I don't think he would have ever encountered the hideously abbreviated Franco/Americanism "rap".

During my alpine initiation in 1982 he psyched us all up the night before ascents of various voies normales by reading aloud apt passages from his battered copies of their hallowed texts. Happy days!

In reply to Robert Durran:



I ... I ... I ... corwumph!!!!!

In reply to Robert Durran:

When I was born in Britain, not the USA...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Speaking as an editor, the words are more or less interchangeable. There are subtle differences but too subtle for most people to notice (or care about).

In reply to Robert Durran:
I'm glad to say I'm not in any position to comment on such usage as I don't frequent dogging venues ...

Nor am I likely to, going forward


Re mechanical descent methods, shorely the correct British term to be used is Absailing, nein?

In reply to Only a hill:
There are subtle differences but too subtle for most people to notice (or care about).

Dear Editor,
Have you not missed out a comma after the word differences ?

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's a glory of English that you can change parts of speech - http://www.shakespeareswords.com/Functional-shift

But me no buts!

In reply to Robert Durran:

They often say it takes two to Tania Borealis.

But, yes, quite the character. I came across this the other day:
"The Bogle Prae (the most Sen Collegeman to keep a bicycle in College) would cycle up and down Ropes, and the crowd would periodically throw buckets of water over the players. During the mid-1980s, prior to the innovation of the buckets of water, the crowd would throw carrots onto the canvas, which were picked out of the mud and consumed by the referee of the time, College Tutor John Hunter Durran. Afterwards, a Hot was held in Logie, the stream which runs between the College buildings and the Warden's Garden."

In reply to leon 1:

Yes, but I'm posting from my phone and off duty.

In reply to Only a hill:

No reason to let standards slip!

Next thing you know, the barbarians will be at the gates...!

In reply to Only a hill:


Speaking as an editor with about 20 years more experience than you, I would suggest you might want to be a bit more careful. There are times when such things do matter, and times when they don't matter. It's important to be able to recognise the difference.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Favourite rant of the year! Great reading...keep them coming they're rad!

In reply to tony:

Clearly there's a difference – I don't deny that, and clearly there are times when subtle distinctions of meaning are important. Is this one of those times, though? I don't think it is. I'd like to think I'm experienced *enough* to know when the context warrants more care. This thread is hardly a book about to go to press.

Do I really need to be more careful when posting off-duty on UKC? Maybe I do, but I hardly think this is as weighty an issue as dispensing advice on avalanche conditions, for example.

In reply to tony:


"suggest *that*", surely?

In reply to Robert Durran:

To reply to your OP Rob, clearly it's 'track' in the snow, 'trail' anywhere in the States and 'PATH' in the UK.

Which reminds me of an amusing occasion when H had translated a guide book from French to English for a friend in Chamonix. In one of the approach descriptions there was a sentence which included the phrase 'follow a vague path... '. François in his wisdom had a French woman professional translator friend of his run her eyes over the manuscript before printing. It came back to H with this particular phrase circled in red felt tip and a note saying 'in English we do not use the word 'vague'. The word here is 'dim'... ' So, follow a dim path through the meadow... ' Ah, the know-all French female. Formidable.

In reply to jon:


I think, like others, you are confusing snow and non-snow situations. When there is no snow in the UK, there is no such thing as a trail; a path is something you walk along and a track is something you could drive a Land Rover along. Under snow your footprints make a trail which others might follow. My objection is that people are now, incorrectly, referring to this as a track. There should be no ambiguity, even without specifying whether or not there is snow.

I am aware that usage can change, but this is not a good thing if it introduces ambiguity. It would be a shame if you told someone there was a good track to the bottom of a route and then had to explain whether this meant you could drive to the bottom of the route or flog for miles through snow.

Don't care about the US. They have long been beyond hope........

In reply to Robert Durran:

When there's no snow, a path - footpath - is English. Trail is definitely American. Maybe Scots are beyond hope... When there's snow on the ground it's a track - like a ski-track. You don't talk about a ski trail. When talking about vehicles then fine, a 4x4 track. But I can see that this obviously upsets you so I'll let it go and put it down to... the fact that you're wrong.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If a deer has been ahead of you, do you follow the dim deer trail or vague deer track through the snow?

In reply to jon:


I've no idea and don't care about skiers - they too are beyond hope. Please can we stick to my OP which was about footprints in the snow.

In reply to MG:


Neither. I follow a vague trail through the snow. I might follow deer tracks (I mentioned this subtle distinction earlier in the thread; the trail is formed from tracks).

In reply to felt:

> "The Bogle Prae

etc
I understood every word of that - and knew Hunter Durran (who was a climber, by the way). What most don't know is that 'Logie' meant 'sh!t', a reference to when it was not the crystal clear chalk stream that it now is, being at that point downstream of the city.

However, don't get me started on 'pants', waterproof, softshell or otherwise, which seems to be a term that has been adopted solely by the 'outdoor community' (whatever that might be) in this country. Try going into a shop and asking for denim pants and you'll be referred to a discreet establishment behind the station.

In reply to Robert Durran:

A-ha! O-ho! A track in the snow.
Whose is this track, and where does it go?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hmm. From Scrambles by Whymper:

"Every atom of our track that was in its course was
obliterated: all the new snow was swept away, and a broad sheet
of smooth, glassy ice showed the resistless force with which it
had fallen."

In reply to captain paranoia:
A-ha ! O-ho ! I do not know,
is it a path if its down low ?
but if its a trail or if its a track
Is it the same both there and back?


from Cabin Fever in the Peak

In reply to MG:


Seems that the confusion is not new then.

In reply to Robert Durran:

"Hallo!" said Piglet, "what are you doing?"
"Hunting," said Pooh.
"Hunting what?"
"Tracking something," said Winnie-the-Pooh very mysteriously.
"Tracking what?" said Piglet, coming closer
"That's just what I ask myself. I ask myself, What?"
"What do you think you'll answer?"
"I shall have to wait until I catch up with it," said Winnie-the-Pooh. "Now, look there." He pointed to the ground in front of him. "What do you see there?"
"Tracks," said Piglet. "Paw-marks." He gave a little squeak of excitement. "Oh, Pooh! Do you think it's a--a--a Woozle?"
"It may be," said Pooh. "Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. You never can tell with paw- marks."
With these few words he went on tracking, and Piglet, after watching him for a minute or two, ran after him. Winnie-the-Pooh had come to a sudden stop, and was bending over the tracks in a puzzled sort of way.
"What's the matter?" asked Piglet.
"It's a very funny thing," said Bear, "but there seem to be two animals now. This--whatever-it-was--has been joined by another--whatever-it-is-- and the two of them are now proceeding in company. Would you mind coming with me, Piglet, in case they turn out to be Hostile Animals?"
Piglet scratched his ear in a nice sort of way, and said that he had nothing to do until Friday, and would be delighted to come, in case it really was a Woozle.
"You mean, in case it really is two Woozles," said Winnie-the-Pooh, and Piglet said that anyhow he had nothing to do until Friday. So off they went together.
There was a small spinney of larch trees just here, and it seemed as if the two Woozles, if that is what they were, had been going round this spinney; so round this spinney went Pooh and Piglet after them; Piglet passing the time by telling Pooh what his Grandfather Trespassers W had done to Remove Stiffness after Tracking, and how his Grandfather Trespassers W had suffered in his later years from Shortness of Breath, and other matters of interest, and Pooh wondering what a Grandfather was like, and if perhaps this was Two Grandfathers they were after now, and, if so, whether he would be allowed to take one home and keep it, and what Christopher Robin would say. And still the tracks went on in front of them....
Suddenly Winnie-the-Pooh stopped, and pointed excitedly in front of him. "Look!"
"What?" said Piglet, with a jump. And then, to show that he hadn't been frightened, he jumped up and down once or twice more in an exercising sort of way.
"The tracks!" said Pooh. "A third animal has joined the other two!" "Pooh!" cried Piglet "Do you think it is another Woozle?"
"No," said Pooh, "because it makes different marks. It is either Two Woozles and one, as it might be, Wizzle, or Two, as it might be, Wizzles and one, if so it is, Woozle. Let us continue to follow them."
So they went on, feeling just a little anxious now, in case the three animals in front of them were of Hostile Intent. And Piglet wished very much that his Grandfather T. W. were there, instead of elsewhere, and Pooh thought how nice it would be if they met Christopher Robin suddenly but quite accidentally, and only because he liked Christopher Robin so much. And then, all of a sudden, Winnie-the-Pooh stopped again, and licked the tip of his nose in a cooling manner, for he was feeling more hot and anxious than ever in his life before. There were four animals in front of them!
"Do you see, Piglet? Look at their tracks! Three, as it were, Woozles, and one, as it was, Wizzle. Another Woozle has joined them!"
And so it seemed to be. There were the tracks; crossing over each other here, getting muddled up with each other there; but, quite plainly every now and then, the tracks of four sets of paws.
"I think," said Piglet, when he had licked the tip of his nose too, and found that it brought very little comfort, "I think that I have just remembered something. I have just remembered something that I forgot to do yesterday and sha'n't be able to do to-morrow. So I suppose I really ought to go back and do it now."
"We'll do it this afternoon, and I'll come with you," said Pooh.
"It isn't the sort of thing you can do in the afternoon," said Piglet quickly. "It's a very particular morning thing, that has to be done in the morning, and, if possible, between the hours of What would you say the time was?"
"About twelve," said Winnie-the-Pooh, looking at the sun.
"Between, as I was saying, the hours of twelve and twelve five. So, really, dear old Pooh, if you'll excuse me-- What's that."
Pooh looked up at the sky, and then, as he heard the whistle again, he looked up into the branches of a big oak-tree, and then he saw a friend of his.
"It's Christopher Robin," he said.
"Ah, then you'll be all right," said Piglet.
"You'll be quite safe with him. Good-bye," and he trotted off home as quickly as he could, very glad to be Out of All Danger again.
Christopher Robin came slowly down his tree.
"Silly old Bear," he said, "what were you doing? First you went round the spinney twice by yourself, and then Piglet ran after you and you went round again together, and then you were just going round a fourth time"
"Wait a moment," said Winnie-the-Pooh, holding up his paw.
He sat down and thought, in the most thoughtful way he could think. Then he fitted his paw into one of the Tracks . . . and then he scratched his nose twice, and stood up.
"Yes," said Winnie-the-Pooh.
"I see now," said Winnie-the-Pooh.
"I have been Foolish and Deluded," said he, "and I am a Bear of No Brain at All."
"You're the Best Bear in All the World," said Christopher Robin soothingly.
"Am I?" said Pooh hopefully. And then he brightened up suddenly.
"Anyhow," he said, "it is nearly Luncheon Time."
So he went home for it.

In reply to nniff:


The term "track" (as a noun) is not used. Tracks are referred to; I refer you to my post at 15.18.

In reply to nniff:


In his Notions, Charles Stevens states that the name Logie, which appeared in 1836, was originally Logey, "possibly from dialect log-burn (an open drain) or from Dutch log (a sluggish, stupid person), giving in English logger, logy, loggy (heavy, unwieldy) and loggerhead (a dolt)."

Of course, it was originally Lort-burn in medieval times and, as you say, an open sewer.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course.


It was just a good excuse to put in some Winnie the Pooh, which is good for everyone's soul. Piget's approach to danger puts me very much in mind of my own....

In reply to MG:


I wouldn't follow a trail made by a dim deer.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where the Woozle wasn't.

In reply to jon:


Or a no idea.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sheep track or sheep trail?

In reply to Gone for good:

Or, as I overheard the Queen once say, star trek or star trail?

In reply to felt:

A trail is what is left when the stock escape from a field belonging to star sheep enterprise.