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What would you recommend for a mid grade punter wanting to move on from V or V,6 to VI,6 or VI,7 in the Cairngorm's or the NW? I've already got some V,7's on the list. I have to confess to liking runners, so bold ice run-outs aren't my thing! So don't recommend VI,5's! Climbing E2 multipitch routes in the mountains in summer.
Like many folks I've probably plateauxed out at a grade I'm comfortable with through lack of climbing partners who can lead harder and get the team out of a tight spot if I can't commit. Perhaps I should just man up, but the fear of what a VI,7 may be like in reality plays on the mind... and I don't really want to have to endure a multipitch abseil retreat!
I've done many classic V's on ice and IV/V 6's on mixed.
I'd like to do Eagle Ridge on Lochnagar and Central Buttress on Beinn Eighe, but worry about them being long and committing if the step up is too much, so looking for VI's to do in advance.
Cheers,
Steve
Like many folks I've probably plateauxed out at a grade I'm comfortable with through lack of climbing partners who can lead harder and get the team out of a tight spot if I can't commit. Perhaps I should just man up, but the fear of what a VI,7 may be like in reality plays on the mind... and I don't really want to have to endure a multipitch abseil retreat!
I've done many classic V's on ice and IV/V 6's on mixed.
I'd like to do Eagle Ridge on Lochnagar and Central Buttress on Beinn Eighe, but worry about them being long and committing if the step up is too much, so looking for VI's to do in advance.
Cheers,
Steve
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In reply to highaltitudebarista:
On the list as one of the obvious suspects at VI,7, but struggling after that!
On the list as one of the obvious suspects at VI,7, but struggling after that!
In reply to Steven Carter:
I thought Salmon's Leap, Smith's Gully, Eagle Ridge and Parallel Buttress, some of the easiest VIs I've done - some Vs, like Mitre Ridge and Raven's seemed harder. Central Buttress is a very long day and was much more technical, but not so serious with a Hex 11 and a couple large Friends (3.5 and 4), though still needs a bold approach on the chimney above, but that's a short pitch.
I thought Salmon's Leap, Smith's Gully, Eagle Ridge and Parallel Buttress, some of the easiest VIs I've done - some Vs, like Mitre Ridge and Raven's seemed harder. Central Buttress is a very long day and was much more technical, but not so serious with a Hex 11 and a couple large Friends (3.5 and 4), though still needs a bold approach on the chimney above, but that's a short pitch.
In reply to Steven Carter:
Tango in the Night is really friendly for VI 7, bomber hooks and great gear.
Tango in the Night is really friendly for VI 7, bomber hooks and great gear.
In reply to Steven Carter:
I thought VI,6 for Fallout Corner and V,6 for Central Buttress. My advice would be just to get on them; the latter is not too bad without verglas if you don't mess about too much on the easier sections.
I thought VI,6 for Fallout Corner and V,6 for Central Buttress. My advice would be just to get on them; the latter is not too bad without verglas if you don't mess about too much on the easier sections.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Agreed, Central Buttress isn't VI,7. Route finding through middle tier is the most challenging climbing!
Stuart
Agreed, Central Buttress isn't VI,7. Route finding through middle tier is the most challenging climbing!
Stuart
In reply to Steven Carter:
To use an analogy, if you can do Summer E1s, E2s and E3s on sight in good style, the Winter routes you are talking about will feel about the same in my opinion.
DC.
To use an analogy, if you can do Summer E1s, E2s and E3s on sight in good style, the Winter routes you are talking about will feel about the same in my opinion.
DC.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Interesting concept , Dave and not off topic.
The old winter I to V used to relate nicely with Mod to "scottish " VS.
So, as a first stab does III IV V VI VII transfer to VS HVS E1 E2 E3 ?
If so, the OP should just try a few soft touches in good condition, ie just get on with it.
Interesting concept , Dave and not off topic.
The old winter I to V used to relate nicely with Mod to "scottish " VS.
So, as a first stab does III IV V VI VII transfer to VS HVS E1 E2 E3 ?
If so, the OP should just try a few soft touches in good condition, ie just get on with it.
In reply to Rick Graham:
As the OP said they tend to be well-protected too esp the mixed.
DC
> Interesting concept , Dave and not off topic.
I don't think I have done any VIIs (intentionally), but certainly all the Vs and VIs I've done have felt like E1s.As the OP said they tend to be well-protected too esp the mixed.
DC
In reply to Rick Graham:
No. At least not in my opinion, there's vastly more range in a Winter grade than in a trad grade. At least if someone does a trad climb on a Wednesday someone's not going to do it on the following Thursday and find it to be objectively a different grade.
That being said, Andy K equated V to HVS and VI to E1, roughly speaking.
> So, as a first stab does III IV V VI VII transfer to VS HVS E1 E2 E3 ?
No. At least not in my opinion, there's vastly more range in a Winter grade than in a trad grade. At least if someone does a trad climb on a Wednesday someone's not going to do it on the following Thursday and find it to be objectively a different grade.
That being said, Andy K equated V to HVS and VI to E1, roughly speaking.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
The comparison will be different for different people as it depends what you do more of (and are therefore better at). I'm more of a rock climber, so a 'proper' VI 6 can feel around E3 5c. Whereas someone who does more winter climbing g would find it relatively easier. Above all, as Dave MacLeod once said, the crux of every mixed route is just plain weird, which is often true - it can be virtually ungradeable if it's some awkward chimney or chockstone!
The comparison will be different for different people as it depends what you do more of (and are therefore better at). I'm more of a rock climber, so a 'proper' VI 6 can feel around E3 5c. Whereas someone who does more winter climbing g would find it relatively easier. Above all, as Dave MacLeod once said, the crux of every mixed route is just plain weird, which is often true - it can be virtually ungradeable if it's some awkward chimney or chockstone!
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In reply to Steven Carter:
Don't fret about it too much, just get on a reasonably well protected one. If you've lots of V 6 experience, it's not that much of a step up.
Don't fret about it too much, just get on a reasonably well protected one. If you've lots of V 6 experience, it's not that much of a step up.
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In reply to Steven Carter:
Did the Pigotts in Beinn Eighe, and did't find it all that hard, just awkward (the chimney). Prolly a M4/+ or so.
Also climbed Para Andy, and it felt more committing (though perhaps not technically harder). And Cutlass during the week I spent in Scotland.
Cutlass was the easiest, albeit the chimney was again awkward, but well protected. So that would be my suggestion from my feeble experience...
And I had never climbed in Scotland before, plus I'm an average weekend punter. But I did have nice hosts (BMC winter meet), that picked the routes... So, all I had to do was follow them and lead my pitches...
Did the Pigotts in Beinn Eighe, and did't find it all that hard, just awkward (the chimney). Prolly a M4/+ or so.
Also climbed Para Andy, and it felt more committing (though perhaps not technically harder). And Cutlass during the week I spent in Scotland.
Cutlass was the easiest, albeit the chimney was again awkward, but well protected. So that would be my suggestion from my feeble experience...
And I had never climbed in Scotland before, plus I'm an average weekend punter. But I did have nice hosts (BMC winter meet), that picked the routes... So, all I had to do was follow them and lead my pitches...
Post edited at 15:27
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Presumably he was joking. Or is an even more crap rock climber than he makes out.
The mixed VI's I've done have felt E3/4ish in general feel of effort and commitment. Or maybe I'm an even more crap winter climber than I thought.
VII remains a long term dream for me alongside 8a and E6.
> That being said, Andy K equated V to HVS and VI to E1, roughly speaking.
Presumably he was joking. Or is an even more crap rock climber than he makes out.
The mixed VI's I've done have felt E3/4ish in general feel of effort and commitment. Or maybe I'm an even more crap winter climber than I thought.
VII remains a long term dream for me alongside 8a and E6.
Post edited at 16:40
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In reply to planetmarshall:
I would say more V to E1 and VI to E2, but it will be different for everyone. Winter climbing feels less natural to most people so takes longer to feel comfortable pushing it. Also, like sport to trad and UK to Alpine it just involves more variables than rock climbing (in particular, suffering!) so what could be thought of as a similar level of climbing can feel harder / more serious overall.
>
> That being said, Andy K equated V to HVS and VI to E1, roughly speaking.
> That being said, Andy K equated V to HVS and VI to E1, roughly speaking.
I would say more V to E1 and VI to E2, but it will be different for everyone. Winter climbing feels less natural to most people so takes longer to feel comfortable pushing it. Also, like sport to trad and UK to Alpine it just involves more variables than rock climbing (in particular, suffering!) so what could be thought of as a similar level of climbing can feel harder / more serious overall.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Winter climbing feels less natural to *some* people
> I would say more V to E1 and VI to E2, but it will be different for everyone. Winter climbing feels less natural to most people...
Winter climbing feels less natural to *some* people
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Odd, I felt the 3 ones I listed above felt like perhaps hard E1 or so. But maybe they weren't VIs.
> The mixed VI's I've done have felt E3/4ish in general feel of effort and commitment.
Odd, I felt the 3 ones I listed above felt like perhaps hard E1 or so. But maybe they weren't VIs.
In reply to HeMa:
Odd, I thought you didn't understand the UK grading system, to which the Scottish winter grading system is analogous
> Odd, I felt the 3 ones I listed above felt like perhaps hard E1 or so.
Odd, I thought you didn't understand the UK grading system, to which the Scottish winter grading system is analogous
Post edited at 17:20
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Are most people amputees with hooks instead of hands then?
> Winter climbing feels less natural to *some* people
Are most people amputees with hooks instead of hands then?
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In reply to HeMa:
Yes, Cutlass is a great V,6. In fact the gear is so good it would be a fine first V let alone VI!
Yes, Cutlass is a great V,6. In fact the gear is so good it would be a fine first V let alone VI!
In reply to Robert Durran:
I don't...
But as stated I climbed 3 routes with that given grade... and I've climbed a bunch that also have been graded with UK grades.
Not really scientific though...
I don't...
But as stated I climbed 3 routes with that given grade... and I've climbed a bunch that also have been graded with UK grades.
Not really scientific though...
In reply to Robert Durran:
Just goes to show how different the two disciplines are and how different climbers are. To me VI lies in the VS-E1 range. VS for those run out nevis face routes, E1 for the techy mixed stuff. I am a million miles away from E3/4 on rock!
Just goes to show how different the two disciplines are and how different climbers are. To me VI lies in the VS-E1 range. VS for those run out nevis face routes, E1 for the techy mixed stuff. I am a million miles away from E3/4 on rock!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Odd, UKC and quite a few guidebooks seem to think VI,7 Cutlass (VI 7).
Oh well, it was nice, be the grade what ever.
> Yes, Cutlass is a great V,6.
Odd, UKC and quite a few guidebooks seem to think VI,7 Cutlass (VI 7).
Oh well, it was nice, be the grade what ever.
In reply to HeMa:
Yes, same with Central Buttress. I agree, it is odd!
> Odd, UKC and quite a few guidebooks seem to think VI,7
>
>
Yes, same with Central Buttress. I agree, it is odd!
In reply to Misha:
DC
> The comparison will be different for different people as it depends. I'm more of a rock climber, so a 'proper' VI 6 can feel around E3 5c. Whereas someone who does more winter climbing would find it relatively easier.
Agree - observation that some people are more natural winter climbers and others perform better on rock. I am/was better on winter mixed than anything else. Rock to E3/4 seemed hard but winter stuff seemed fine.DC
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In reply to Misha:
Interesting. When I lived in Scotland I got to up to climbing a good few V,6s while at the same time I was just breaking into E1 on rock, but only just. So from my point of view if you can climb HVS you can probably climb V,6. I think ice can be quite different to mixed. I know that I can only climb a couple of body lengths of real proper vertical ice (hooked out, heavily features or soft hero ice doesn't really count), that to me is as hard as climbing about E1 also (but scarier - I don't try badly protected E1s!).
Interesting. When I lived in Scotland I got to up to climbing a good few V,6s while at the same time I was just breaking into E1 on rock, but only just. So from my point of view if you can climb HVS you can probably climb V,6. I think ice can be quite different to mixed. I know that I can only climb a couple of body lengths of real proper vertical ice (hooked out, heavily features or soft hero ice doesn't really count), that to me is as hard as climbing about E1 also (but scarier - I don't try badly protected E1s!).
Thanks for the suggestions on routes. Many were ones I'd been thinking of and some were ones not on the radar, so good to hear that none of them are complete sandbags at the grade. Looks like I'll just have to give myself a stern talking to and get on with some of them when the conditions look favourable!
I've found the mixed V's to be comparable with easier E1's so I guess I'll have to climb nearer my limit to climb VI.
Steve
I've found the mixed V's to be comparable with easier E1's so I guess I'll have to climb nearer my limit to climb VI.
Steve
In reply to TobyA:
Were you doing more winter than summer climbing, at least when it came to climbing at your top grade?
I think it's fair to say that most winter clinbers south of the border do more summer than winter climbing (there are exceptions of course). There is then a dual effect:
Less winter climbing = winter routes feel relatively hard, so in my case a VI is perfectly doable but can be challenging.
More summer climbing = summer routes feel relatively easy, so to get to a similar level of overall effort you're looking at a harder grade, so in my case something that's perfectly doable but can be challenging is E3 5c.
The opposite is true of those who are relatively strong in winter. So if someone says that VI = E1, firstly that's because they don't find VI that hard and secondly perhaps they find E1 relatively harder than someone who rock climbs a lot. Again, there will be exceptions.
So my E1 is not the same as your E1 but your VI is not the same as my VI. If that makes sense!
Of course conditions make a big difference and the same VI can be more like a V or a VII depending on conditions and hence feel like an E1 or an E3...
Were you doing more winter than summer climbing, at least when it came to climbing at your top grade?
I think it's fair to say that most winter clinbers south of the border do more summer than winter climbing (there are exceptions of course). There is then a dual effect:
Less winter climbing = winter routes feel relatively hard, so in my case a VI is perfectly doable but can be challenging.
More summer climbing = summer routes feel relatively easy, so to get to a similar level of overall effort you're looking at a harder grade, so in my case something that's perfectly doable but can be challenging is E3 5c.
The opposite is true of those who are relatively strong in winter. So if someone says that VI = E1, firstly that's because they don't find VI that hard and secondly perhaps they find E1 relatively harder than someone who rock climbs a lot. Again, there will be exceptions.
So my E1 is not the same as your E1 but your VI is not the same as my VI. If that makes sense!
Of course conditions make a big difference and the same VI can be more like a V or a VII depending on conditions and hence feel like an E1 or an E3...
Post edited at 02:48
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In reply to Misha:
Well, while I say the (non) VI felt like E1 or perhaps E2s. I still don't winter climb that much (from mid Dec to Mid March, almost every weekend at least for one day. It's all short single pitch stuff though). Most of my climbing is bouldering, then sport and trad, it's all single pitch though. Rock season generally starts around mid March to early April and lasts into September. Add indoor bouldering when the weather doesn't cooperate (year round).
For me, it's simply because I'm weak (same as Toby). Longer overhangs simply kill me. The three (non ) VIs I have climbed, were all more or less slabby, so I could stand around instead of burning my forearms. On rock, the things are different, even E1s can be steep and sustained -> I have a good change of failing on them.
> The opposite is true of those who are relatively strong in winter. So if someone says that VI = E1, firstly that's because they don't find VI that hard and secondly perhaps they find E1 relatively harder than someone who rock climbs a lot. Again, there will be exceptions.
Well, while I say the (non) VI felt like E1 or perhaps E2s. I still don't winter climb that much (from mid Dec to Mid March, almost every weekend at least for one day. It's all short single pitch stuff though). Most of my climbing is bouldering, then sport and trad, it's all single pitch though. Rock season generally starts around mid March to early April and lasts into September. Add indoor bouldering when the weather doesn't cooperate (year round).
For me, it's simply because I'm weak (same as Toby). Longer overhangs simply kill me. The three (non ) VIs I have climbed, were all more or less slabby, so I could stand around instead of burning my forearms. On rock, the things are different, even E1s can be steep and sustained -> I have a good change of failing on them.
Just have a go and be willing to retreat. Doing a couple of abseils isnt half as bad as you make it sound, just keep a bit of cord in your pocket and the knowledge that there's no pressure to succeed will make the climbing far easier. Even if you have to rest on some gear the first time, you'll get a taste for the moves.
And as for the other conversation, ive led tech 8 pitches that felt like VS ledge shuffles with the odd hard move, and some tech 7 pitches that felt like leading E5. Funny thing winter... Its all in the head
And as for the other conversation, ive led tech 8 pitches that felt like VS ledge shuffles with the odd hard move, and some tech 7 pitches that felt like leading E5. Funny thing winter... Its all in the head
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree with Andy K's VI to E1, mainly because I can climb VI but can't climb E3. I do tend to climb a lot in winter though.
I agree with Andy K's VI to E1, mainly because I can climb VI but can't climb E3. I do tend to climb a lot in winter though.
In reply to Misha:
If you're from south of the border but north of Chesterfield the usual conversion factor is IV+ = E0. This may provide a useful calibration point.
If you're from south of the border but north of Chesterfield the usual conversion factor is IV+ = E0. This may provide a useful calibration point.
In reply to Steve Perry:
Oh well, to me E1 is generally a pleasant warm up, and, when really dedicated to my rock climbing, E3 has been a warm up. Whereas the VI's I've done have mostly felt like epic, all out, neck on the line struggles, despite the fact that I did almost all of them when really dedicated to winter climbing, pushing myself every weekend possible; clearly I'm just really rubbish!
> I agree with Andy K's VI to E1, mainly because I can climb VI but can't climb E3. I do tend to climb a lot in winter though.
Oh well, to me E1 is generally a pleasant warm up, and, when really dedicated to my rock climbing, E3 has been a warm up. Whereas the VI's I've done have mostly felt like epic, all out, neck on the line struggles, despite the fact that I did almost all of them when really dedicated to winter climbing, pushing myself every weekend possible; clearly I'm just really rubbish!
In reply to Robert Durran:
You're not the only one Rob.
I've found some E5's easier than a couple of the grade VI routes I've done.
However, it would appear that the finest moments of my winter climbing prowess are now considered to be nothing more than mid grade punter territory?
> Oh well, to me E1 is generally a pleasant warm up, and, when really dedicated to my rock climbing, E3 has been a warm up. Whereas the VI's I've done have mostly felt like epic, all out, neck on the line struggles, despite the fact that I did almost all of them when really dedicated to winter climbing, pushing myself every weekend possible; clearly I'm just really rubbish!
You're not the only one Rob.
I've found some E5's easier than a couple of the grade VI routes I've done.
However, it would appear that the finest moments of my winter climbing prowess are now considered to be nothing more than mid grade punter territory?
Post edited at 12:03
In reply to Goucho:
Gear improvements possibly a large factor in Winter Climbing. When was the last time you did a VI?
> It would appear that the finest moments of my winter climbing prowess are now considered to be nothing more than mid grade punter territory
Gear improvements possibly a large factor in Winter Climbing. When was the last time you did a VI?
In reply to Steven Carter:
I have benefitted this season by climbing a few VI(7) with a stronger partner. I assume there are going to be a lot of strong winter climbers up where you live (North of Inverness). maybe just try to cast your net a bit wider to get in touch with them. Join the SMC? I joined the Climbers Club in the UK and did a bit of dry tooling and that opened up a few connections for me.
In terms of routes I tried Eagle ridge with a similar partner to me and we did not get far. The conditions were poor on the day but we got a few pitches and abbed off. No shame in trying and retreating.
I have climbed Gargoyle wall and Great Overhanging Gully this season with a stronger partner. I would recommend getting on them both. The gear is good enough to retreat if you come to a standstill. Even if you only get up a couple of pitches you will learn a lot. Just make sure you get on them in good frozen conditions. They both will need solid neve.
I have benefitted this season by climbing a few VI(7) with a stronger partner. I assume there are going to be a lot of strong winter climbers up where you live (North of Inverness). maybe just try to cast your net a bit wider to get in touch with them. Join the SMC? I joined the Climbers Club in the UK and did a bit of dry tooling and that opened up a few connections for me.
In terms of routes I tried Eagle ridge with a similar partner to me and we did not get far. The conditions were poor on the day but we got a few pitches and abbed off. No shame in trying and retreating.
I have climbed Gargoyle wall and Great Overhanging Gully this season with a stronger partner. I would recommend getting on them both. The gear is good enough to retreat if you come to a standstill. Even if you only get up a couple of pitches you will learn a lot. Just make sure you get on them in good frozen conditions. They both will need solid neve.
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In reply to Goucho:
It does seem that winter climbing in the mountains has become exponentially more popular and general standards exponentially higher in the last ten years or so, while, at the same time, general rock climbing standards have stagnated and the mountain crags are pretty deserted. The great popular winter venues are rammed any half decent weekend, whereas you can often have the great "popular" mountain crags to yourself in summer when they are dry. I confess to finding the whole thing both fascinating and baffling! What are all these people who climb VI,VII and VIII doing with themselves all summer? Bimbling up VS's? Dry tooling in some quarry?
> However, it would appear that the finest moments of my winter climbing prowess are now considered to be nothing more than mid grade punter territory?
It does seem that winter climbing in the mountains has become exponentially more popular and general standards exponentially higher in the last ten years or so, while, at the same time, general rock climbing standards have stagnated and the mountain crags are pretty deserted. The great popular winter venues are rammed any half decent weekend, whereas you can often have the great "popular" mountain crags to yourself in summer when they are dry. I confess to finding the whole thing both fascinating and baffling! What are all these people who climb VI,VII and VIII doing with themselves all summer? Bimbling up VS's? Dry tooling in some quarry?
Post edited at 12:25
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In reply to Robert Durran:
What are all these people who climb VI,VII and VIII doing with themselves all summer?
Hanging off door lintels with a pair of Nomics by the sounds of it
What are all these people who climb VI,VII and VIII doing with themselves all summer?
Hanging off door lintels with a pair of Nomics by the sounds of it
Post edited at 12:25
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Probably not rubbish Robert, you have after all climbed grade VI, which was a hard grade not that long ago. Maybe it's probably because your limit on rock is higher than your limit in winter thus the cross reference across is a higher number for you.
Probably not rubbish Robert, you have after all climbed grade VI, which was a hard grade not that long ago. Maybe it's probably because your limit on rock is higher than your limit in winter thus the cross reference across is a higher number for you.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Sport climbing in the sunshine.
> What are all these people who climb VI,VII and VIII doing with themselves all summer? Bimbling up VS's? Dry tooling in some quarry?
Sport climbing in the sunshine.
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In reply to Steve Perry:
Well it hasn't got any easier in absolute terms. I just can't imagine climbing VI if I could only climb HVS/E1 like plenty of people seem to do.
> Probably not rubbish Robert, you have after all climbed grade VI, which was a hard grade not that long ago.
Well it hasn't got any easier in absolute terms. I just can't imagine climbing VI if I could only climb HVS/E1 like plenty of people seem to do.
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
But surely that would turn them into wusses of so little moral fibre that they'd be unlikely to step outside the climbing wall in winter.
> Sport climbing in the sunshine.
But surely that would turn them into wusses of so little moral fibre that they'd be unlikely to step outside the climbing wall in winter.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Even HVS can have small handholds.... where as in winter you're hanging from jugs., so once you get past the idea that the pick is on a tiny crystal you'll do just fine... or not .
> Well it hasn't got any easier in absolute terms. I just can't imagine climbing VI if I could only climb HVS/E1 like plenty of people seem to do.
Even HVS can have small handholds.... where as in winter you're hanging from jugs., so once you get past the idea that the pick is on a tiny crystal you'll do just fine... or not .
In reply to Robert Durran:
To be honest, bolt clippin' is a lot scarier than trad (at least where I live). On trad, it's generally a solid granite crack so gear every few centimeter or so... where is with bolts, you need to climb way above the bolt, scary stuff...
Oh, and we don't have that many bold trad climbs (most have been bolted way before they were even though about climbing as a trad line... or soloed, and then later bolted).
> But surely that would turn them into wusses of so little moral fibre that they'd be unlikely to step outside the climbing wall in winter.
To be honest, bolt clippin' is a lot scarier than trad (at least where I live). On trad, it's generally a solid granite crack so gear every few centimeter or so... where is with bolts, you need to climb way above the bolt, scary stuff...
Oh, and we don't have that many bold trad climbs (most have been bolted way before they were even though about climbing as a trad line... or soloed, and then later bolted).
Post edited at 12:38
In reply to Goucho:
VI was hard with straight shafted axes and leashes. Such a massive difference with modern leashless axes; at least a full grade.
>
> I've found some E5's easier than a couple of the grade VI routes I've done.
> I've found some E5's easier than a couple of the grade VI routes I've done.
> However, it would appear that the finest moments of my winter climbing prowess are now considered to be nothing more than mid grade punter territory?
VI was hard with straight shafted axes and leashes. Such a massive difference with modern leashless axes; at least a full grade.
In reply to HeMa:
Precisely. In summer, you grasp a hold and immediately know roughly how secure and how long and hard you can hold on to it. In winter, it is far harder to tell with many hooks; the level of insecurity is far higher, jugs or not. Leashless make a difference in other ways, but not with the level of security.
> .... where as in winter you're hanging from jugs., so once you get past the idea that the pick is on a tiny crystal you'll do just fine... or not .
Precisely. In summer, you grasp a hold and immediately know roughly how secure and how long and hard you can hold on to it. In winter, it is far harder to tell with many hooks; the level of insecurity is far higher, jugs or not. Leashless make a difference in other ways, but not with the level of security.
Post edited at 14:10
In reply to Robert Durran:
In fact I sometimes wonder whether these people who climb HVS and VI are just far more accepting of insecurity than me. Or perhaps are just such rubbish rock climbers that they are used to feeling insecure the whole time But my preferred theory is still that I'm simply crap in winter.........
> In winter........... the level of insecurity is far higher.
In fact I sometimes wonder whether these people who climb HVS and VI are just far more accepting of insecurity than me. Or perhaps are just such rubbish rock climbers that they are used to feeling insecure the whole time But my preferred theory is still that I'm simply crap in winter.........
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In reply to Robert Durran:
The Eiger NF alone, tells us that's not true Rob
> In fact I sometimes wonder whether these people who climb HVS and VI are just far more accepting of insecurity than me. Or perhaps are just such rubbish rock climbers that they are used to feeling insecure the whole time But my preferred theory is still that I'm simply crap in winter.........
The Eiger NF alone, tells us that's not true Rob
In reply to Goucho:
...... crap .....winter......... Eiger NF
By Rob's own admission you just need to readjust the words to get the true story
...... crap .....winter......... Eiger NF
By Rob's own admission you just need to readjust the words to get the true story
In reply to Goucho:
The concensus seems to be VI (pitches of VI'4, VI'5 and VI'6) which seems about right - serious, hard and insecure! Anyway, if I was ever good at anything it was keeping it together in gnarly situations rather than at the actual climbing.
> The Eiger NF alone, tells us that's not true Rob
The concensus seems to be VI (pitches of VI'4, VI'5 and VI'6) which seems about right - serious, hard and insecure! Anyway, if I was ever good at anything it was keeping it together in gnarly situations rather than at the actual climbing.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Lol. Just to make you feel even worse, one my friends leads VIII, seconds IX but climbs around HVS rock.
A fairly keen Scottish climber I know who is equally active both Summer and Winter equates VII to E2. I'd probably agree but most people don't spend roughly equal numbers of days per year Winter and rock climbing.
For most of us there is probably something like a 10:1 bias towards rock climbing so it is no surprise we find the Winter stuff a much stiffer proposition.
PS I lead my first VI in 13 years at the start of this Winter. For me the biggest barrier is actually getting on the harder routes. Once I've got climbing, they've been fine albeit a bit stressful.
> The mixed VI's I've done have felt E3/4ish in general feel of effort and commitment. Or maybe I'm an even more crap winter climber than I thought.
Lol. Just to make you feel even worse, one my friends leads VIII, seconds IX but climbs around HVS rock.
A fairly keen Scottish climber I know who is equally active both Summer and Winter equates VII to E2. I'd probably agree but most people don't spend roughly equal numbers of days per year Winter and rock climbing.
For most of us there is probably something like a 10:1 bias towards rock climbing so it is no surprise we find the Winter stuff a much stiffer proposition.
PS I lead my first VI in 13 years at the start of this Winter. For me the biggest barrier is actually getting on the harder routes. Once I've got climbing, they've been fine albeit a bit stressful.
Post edited at 16:49
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
One of the best winter/mixed climbers I've ever climbed with both in Scotland and the alps - if he was still alive, and with today's gear, he'd probably still be cruising VIII+ - was a complete carthorse on rock.
The strength of Samson, the toughness of someone in the SAS, and all the finesse of Rocky Balboa in round 14.
Bloody impressive on the icy stuff, bloody embarrassing on rock
> The concensus seems to be VI (pitches of VI'4, VI'5 and VI'6) which seems about right - serious, hard and insecure! Anyway, if I was ever good at anything it was keeping it together in gnarly situations rather than at the actual climbing.
One of the best winter/mixed climbers I've ever climbed with both in Scotland and the alps - if he was still alive, and with today's gear, he'd probably still be cruising VIII+ - was a complete carthorse on rock.
The strength of Samson, the toughness of someone in the SAS, and all the finesse of Rocky Balboa in round 14.
Bloody impressive on the icy stuff, bloody embarrassing on rock
In reply to Robert Durran:
HVS and VI is something I find it hard to reconcile; like VI and E5, the latter bit of both is just a hugely bigger undertaking. Perhaps
HVS / VI = absolutely no finger strength but big balls
E5 / VI = brilliant finger strength but no balls
?
> In fact I sometimes wonder whether these people who climb HVS and VI are just far more accepting of insecurity than me. Or perhaps are just such rubbish rock climbers that they are used to feeling insecure the whole time
HVS and VI is something I find it hard to reconcile; like VI and E5, the latter bit of both is just a hugely bigger undertaking. Perhaps
HVS / VI = absolutely no finger strength but big balls
E5 / VI = brilliant finger strength but no balls
?
1
In reply to Removed User:
Excellent - take two imaginary grades and compare them. What if you live in Birmingham?
Excellent - take two imaginary grades and compare them. What if you live in Birmingham?
1
In reply to Goucho:
E5 easier than VI? Unless you're talking about slabby grit E5 5c/6a, no way! Were you doing the VIs with modern tools?
E5 easier than VI? Unless you're talking about slabby grit E5 5c/6a, no way! Were you doing the VIs with modern tools?
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Well, E1 for me... and don't have that big balls... Not keen on bold routes...
Should have been me, since I mostly boulder and indeed have the finger strength (for short stretches anyway), and lack stamina...
and still felt E1 == VI or so for effort....
I guess it boils down on how much you trust your self... and the tools. If you can live with the pics on small (solid) holds, you might find VI, 7 rather easy (almost HVS)... But if you don't trust them tools or crampons... well... it's going to feel a lot harder.
And this is even without thinkin' about the quality or amount of protection.
Maybe TobyA can chime in on how the grades have felt to him. I know he's quite solid on HVS/E1 territory and has experience from the past and from this season of scottish winter climbing... He also failed on this one vimeo.com/57475274
And it felt about Tech 7 or so (perhaps a tad harder) and around M4 or perhaps M4+ (contrary on what I wrote on the video). Giving an overall grade for 10m route feels a tad daff, so I won't even try to guess... prolly IV .
> HVS / VI = absolutely no finger strength but big balls
Well, E1 for me... and don't have that big balls... Not keen on bold routes...
> E5 / VI = brilliant finger strength but no balls
Should have been me, since I mostly boulder and indeed have the finger strength (for short stretches anyway), and lack stamina...
and still felt E1 == VI or so for effort....
I guess it boils down on how much you trust your self... and the tools. If you can live with the pics on small (solid) holds, you might find VI, 7 rather easy (almost HVS)... But if you don't trust them tools or crampons... well... it's going to feel a lot harder.
And this is even without thinkin' about the quality or amount of protection.
Maybe TobyA can chime in on how the grades have felt to him. I know he's quite solid on HVS/E1 territory and has experience from the past and from this season of scottish winter climbing... He also failed on this one vimeo.com/57475274
And it felt about Tech 7 or so (perhaps a tad harder) and around M4 or perhaps M4+ (contrary on what I wrote on the video). Giving an overall grade for 10m route feels a tad daff, so I won't even try to guess... prolly IV .
In reply to Misha:
Absolutely. MacInnes Terrordactyls and Salewa crampons, and then I went really high tech upgrading to Chacals, Chouinard rigid crampons and Warthogs.
> E5 easier than VI? Unless you're talking about slabby grit E5 5c/6a, no way! Were you doing the VIs with modern tools?
Absolutely. MacInnes Terrordactyls and Salewa crampons, and then I went really high tech upgrading to Chacals, Chouinard rigid crampons and Warthogs.
1
In reply to Mark Grist:
Though I wouldn't recommend great overhanging gully for breaking into VI, might be in for a big shock! Gargoyle OK with good buildup in that second pitch, otherwise well hard as you know
Though I wouldn't recommend great overhanging gully for breaking into VI, might be in for a big shock! Gargoyle OK with good buildup in that second pitch, otherwise well hard as you know
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Perhaps not completely if it's a decently protected mixed route.
> HVS / VI = absolutely no finger strength but big balls
Perhaps not completely if it's a decently protected mixed route.
In reply to HeMa:
Video is private but was it this climb? https://ukc2.com/i/235769.jpg I did a pitch last winter which turned out to be the crux of a VI,6 - I took one fall on that, but I reckon it was about the same grade as your route. So maybe tech 6 rather than 7? But I've never done a Scottish route with a tech 7 pitch, so what do i know!
Video is private but was it this climb? https://ukc2.com/i/235769.jpg I did a pitch last winter which turned out to be the crux of a VI,6 - I took one fall on that, but I reckon it was about the same grade as your route. So maybe tech 6 rather than 7? But I've never done a Scottish route with a tech 7 pitch, so what do i know!
In reply to TobyA:
That's the one... and you can even watch it embedded here. Previously you had to watch it from Vimeo (but the video was never private).
As far as the tech grade goes, when in condition you climbed it... It certainly felt harder than anything on Cutlass, Pigotts or Para Andy. Sure, Cutlass was 1st pitch was more sustained and the second an awkward chimney... so perhaps Gordon is right when he said that Cutlass is V, 6.
And perhaps Pigotts is also only V, 6. Again the crux is just plain awkward. Sure, it's a longer route.... but climbs well and follows an obvious line.
As far as Para Andy goes, well, it was more ballsy than technical (So perhaps VI,6 rather than VI,7). Also the 2nd pitch was quite sustained with a nasty sting at the end, when you arrive at the belay ledge above the roof.
BTW, I'm sure you'd get up Pigotts and Cutlass...
That's the one... and you can even watch it embedded here. Previously you had to watch it from Vimeo (but the video was never private).
As far as the tech grade goes, when in condition you climbed it... It certainly felt harder than anything on Cutlass, Pigotts or Para Andy. Sure, Cutlass was 1st pitch was more sustained and the second an awkward chimney... so perhaps Gordon is right when he said that Cutlass is V, 6.
And perhaps Pigotts is also only V, 6. Again the crux is just plain awkward. Sure, it's a longer route.... but climbs well and follows an obvious line.
As far as Para Andy goes, well, it was more ballsy than technical (So perhaps VI,6 rather than VI,7). Also the 2nd pitch was quite sustained with a nasty sting at the end, when you arrive at the belay ledge above the roof.
BTW, I'm sure you'd get up Pigotts and Cutlass...
Post edited at 07:48
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Anyone with the general climbing skills and balls/head to climb VI would be able to climb E3 if they wanted if they put a little bit of effort into improving their finger strength.
It's harder to see how someone (like me) who is generally an E3 (harder in a good year) climber can boost their winter grade apart from doing more of it perhaps. I've tried dry tooling at Newtyle a couple of times, but hooking into drilled holes simply isn't going to overcome the problem of the insecurity and lack of confidence in natural hooks. Maybe the answer is to stick a top rope on some already well scratched hard classics in the Northern Corries and tool them in summer - I'm seriously tempted!
> HVS / VI = absolutely no finger strength but big balls.
Anyone with the general climbing skills and balls/head to climb VI would be able to climb E3 if they wanted if they put a little bit of effort into improving their finger strength.
> E5 / VI = brilliant finger strength but no balls.
It's harder to see how someone (like me) who is generally an E3 (harder in a good year) climber can boost their winter grade apart from doing more of it perhaps. I've tried dry tooling at Newtyle a couple of times, but hooking into drilled holes simply isn't going to overcome the problem of the insecurity and lack of confidence in natural hooks. Maybe the answer is to stick a top rope on some already well scratched hard classics in the Northern Corries and tool them in summer - I'm seriously tempted!
Post edited at 11:11
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
I thought you were a man of strong ethical ground...
But that's just plain wrong. No tools on real winter lines, unless there's white stuff on the ground (and I ain't talkin' about coke nor chalk).
And this comes from a bloody foreigner...
That said, toproping a hard line (when in condition) is about the best way to get used to the insecurities of that kind of climbing, just without the fear of injury.
> Maybe the answer is to stick a top rope on some already well scratched hard classics in the Northern Corries and tool them in summer - I'm seriously tempted!
I thought you were a man of strong ethical ground...
But that's just plain wrong. No tools on real winter lines, unless there's white stuff on the ground (and I ain't talkin' about coke nor chalk).
And this comes from a bloody foreigner...
That said, toproping a hard line (when in condition) is about the best way to get used to the insecurities of that kind of climbing, just without the fear of injury.
In reply to HeMa:
I struggle to see what harm scratching a bit of rock which is already scratched to f*** would be doing. I'd avoid hacking at any turf.
Obviously I wouldn't be claiming a winter ascent.
> I thought you were a man of strong ethical ground......
I struggle to see what harm scratching a bit of rock which is already scratched to f*** would be doing. I'd avoid hacking at any turf.
> But that's just plain wrong. No tools on real winter lines, unless there's white stuff on the ground.
Obviously I wouldn't be claiming a winter ascent.
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
The same analogy holds for rime and snow... So it's a slippery slope...
Rime doesn't too anything to protect the rock from scratches... it does however make climbing more challenging...
> I struggle to see what harm scratching a bit of rock which is already scratched to f*** would be doing. I'd avoid hacking at any turf.
The same analogy holds for rime and snow... So it's a slippery slope...
Rime doesn't too anything to protect the rock from scratches... it does however make climbing more challenging...
In reply to HeMa:
No it doesn't. Rime and snow is entirely temporary.
Indeed, which is why I wouldn't have qualms about it.
> The same analogy holds for rime and snow......
No it doesn't. Rime and snow is entirely temporary.
> Rime doesn't too anything to protect the rock from scratches......
Indeed, which is why I wouldn't have qualms about it.
In reply to Robert Durran:
When I lived in Scotland, I did one VI,6 and quite a few V,6s when I was really only a VS rock climber (I think I had done a handful of HVSs and one E1 - but all single pitch central belt quarry routes). The winter routes were with old school gear too, plastic boots, straight tools etc. I've never got anywhere close to climbing E3 though - now I seem to find most gritstone HVS hard and haven't led E1 since moving back to the UK. So I think these things are all quite personal, and like you say maybe rely a lot on what you get chance to do regularly and hence get used to.
> Anyone with the general climbing skills and balls/head to climb VI would be able to climb E3 if they wanted if they put a little bit of effort into improving their finger strength.
When I lived in Scotland, I did one VI,6 and quite a few V,6s when I was really only a VS rock climber (I think I had done a handful of HVSs and one E1 - but all single pitch central belt quarry routes). The winter routes were with old school gear too, plastic boots, straight tools etc. I've never got anywhere close to climbing E3 though - now I seem to find most gritstone HVS hard and haven't led E1 since moving back to the UK. So I think these things are all quite personal, and like you say maybe rely a lot on what you get chance to do regularly and hence get used to.
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
So what you're saying is that drytooling scottish mountain routes in summer is A-OK, as long as no turf is neede?
Same applies for out of condition climbs in the winter?
> No it doesn't. Rime and snow is entirely temporary.
> Indeed, which is why I wouldn't have qualms about it.
> Indeed, which is why I wouldn't have qualms about it.
So what you're saying is that drytooling scottish mountain routes in summer is A-OK, as long as no turf is neede?
Same applies for out of condition climbs in the winter?
In reply to TobyA:
I'd say I'm a steady HVS rock climber, and I reckon V,6 is pretty comparable to that. I find E1 doable but a little more jittery so that's what I imagine VI will be like. I tried my first tech 7 lead a few weeks ago and got shut down when cruddy ice ripped out of a crack and I fell off, but up until that point it didn't feel that hard and without verglassed cracks I reckon it would have went.
I've tried leading E2 on rock but got thrown off that as well, but I haven't tried to climb VI yet so that might go the same way. Although I did climb a route back in January which made me more scared than the V,6's (and anything else) I've climbed, and that was supposed to be IV,5. I think spending lots of time above gear is quite important for me to feel like I'm climbing well.
Some good points here for folks like the OP and myself looking to push into grade VI, thumbs up for UKC today.
I'd say I'm a steady HVS rock climber, and I reckon V,6 is pretty comparable to that. I find E1 doable but a little more jittery so that's what I imagine VI will be like. I tried my first tech 7 lead a few weeks ago and got shut down when cruddy ice ripped out of a crack and I fell off, but up until that point it didn't feel that hard and without verglassed cracks I reckon it would have went.
I've tried leading E2 on rock but got thrown off that as well, but I haven't tried to climb VI yet so that might go the same way. Although I did climb a route back in January which made me more scared than the V,6's (and anything else) I've climbed, and that was supposed to be IV,5. I think spending lots of time above gear is quite important for me to feel like I'm climbing well.
Some good points here for folks like the OP and myself looking to push into grade VI, thumbs up for UKC today.
Post edited at 12:39
In reply to HeMa:
No, I'm only talking about routes which are already well scratched from winter ascents; I don't see a problem with tooling Savage Slit, say, but I certainly wouldn't tool integrity. I'd avoid any turf on the routes.
> So what you're saying is that drytooling scottish mountain routes in summer is A-OK, as long as no turf is neede?
> Same applies for out of condition climbs in the winter?
> Same applies for out of condition climbs in the winter?
No, I'm only talking about routes which are already well scratched from winter ascents; I don't see a problem with tooling Savage Slit, say, but I certainly wouldn't tool integrity. I'd avoid any turf on the routes.
Post edited at 22:14
In reply to Robert Durran:
How to get better - do more of it!
Second harder than you can lead.
Seek out well protected routes at the next grade (whatever that is) and get on them.
Dry tooling does wonders for fitness.
How to get better - do more of it!
Second harder than you can lead.
Seek out well protected routes at the next grade (whatever that is) and get on them.
Dry tooling does wonders for fitness.
1
In reply to Misha:
Yes this is always the way, whether trad or winter climbing. Training helps but time feeling scared is also invaluable for scary stuff (which pushing the grade often is, even if gear is good).
> How to get better - do more of it!
> Second harder than you can lead.
> Seek out well protected routes at the next grade (whatever that is) and get on them.
>
>
Yes this is always the way, whether trad or winter climbing. Training helps but time feeling scared is also invaluable for scary stuff (which pushing the grade often is, even if gear is good).
In reply to Steven Carter:
My first 6s were tower face of the comb felt steady, houdini is a great route, stirling bridge well protected, stirling bomber just a couple of ridiculous but well protected moves at the top, gargoyle wall is brilliant, the migrant was tough at the grade, fall out corner nice and safe to fall out of.
My first 6s were tower face of the comb felt steady, houdini is a great route, stirling bridge well protected, stirling bomber just a couple of ridiculous but well protected moves at the top, gargoyle wall is brilliant, the migrant was tough at the grade, fall out corner nice and safe to fall out of.
In reply to Fatherof2:
Yes, Houdini is very good. I thought VI,6 with a short bold bit on the initial corner. If pushing the grade would probably do Fallout or Stirling Bomber first. Hoarmaster is also a good one at sustained well protected borderline V/VI,6.
Yes, Houdini is very good. I thought VI,6 with a short bold bit on the initial corner. If pushing the grade would probably do Fallout or Stirling Bomber first. Hoarmaster is also a good one at sustained well protected borderline V/VI,6.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I thought Houdini was top end VI and I probably wouldn't recommend it for someone breaking into the grade although definitely worth doing eventually as it is a great route.
I'd say if you can get up routes like Crest Route, the Genie, Deep Throat (speaking of the ones I've done) you shouldn't have too much trouble on the likes of Chimney Route, Auricle, Fallout Corner, probably Gargoyle Wall as well.
I've done V's that felt VI and VI's that felt V so no doubt if you've done lots of V's, the right grade VI's shouldn't feel that much harder.
I thought Houdini was top end VI and I probably wouldn't recommend it for someone breaking into the grade although definitely worth doing eventually as it is a great route.
I'd say if you can get up routes like Crest Route, the Genie, Deep Throat (speaking of the ones I've done) you shouldn't have too much trouble on the likes of Chimney Route, Auricle, Fallout Corner, probably Gargoyle Wall as well.
I've done V's that felt VI and VI's that felt V so no doubt if you've done lots of V's, the right grade VI's shouldn't feel that much harder.
Post edited at 13:39
1
In reply to Steven Carter:
Can we just stop comparing winter grades with rock grades. They clearly aren't comparable if people can climb IX but not E1 as mentioned above. If they were comparable then rockfax will probably have done a grade comparison chart :P
Winter climbing feels scary, tenuous and on off to me. Rock climbing feels solid, controlled and safe. I don't do much winter climbing. People seem to want to translate the two together but I think they're different beasts entirely.
Can we just stop comparing winter grades with rock grades. They clearly aren't comparable if people can climb IX but not E1 as mentioned above. If they were comparable then rockfax will probably have done a grade comparison chart :P
Winter climbing feels scary, tenuous and on off to me. Rock climbing feels solid, controlled and safe. I don't do much winter climbing. People seem to want to translate the two together but I think they're different beasts entirely.
Post edited at 13:57
In reply to Steven Carter:
My advice for breaking into any new grade, in any style of climbing, is to get on something that really inspires you. Be psyched for the route itself, not the outcome. It's much easier then to be in the right headspace for pushing yourself. I actually think that sometimes getting on a route that's reputedly easy for the grade doesn't help, because it's hard then to avoid the psychological trap of wanting it to be easy. Better to accept it's going to be really hard and to be up for that.
Also, don't worry too much about failure. Better to get up something with a rest or two, or even to retreat if that's the right decision, than never to try harder things because you might not get the big O/S. I have to remind myself of this all the time. It's liberating, and if you do fail you'll almost certainly have learned a few things that can make you better for next time.
Alternatively, just do Fallout Corner, because unless someone's cleaned it recently it's pretty much a clip-up and you're never more than a rope length from the ground
My advice for breaking into any new grade, in any style of climbing, is to get on something that really inspires you. Be psyched for the route itself, not the outcome. It's much easier then to be in the right headspace for pushing yourself. I actually think that sometimes getting on a route that's reputedly easy for the grade doesn't help, because it's hard then to avoid the psychological trap of wanting it to be easy. Better to accept it's going to be really hard and to be up for that.
Also, don't worry too much about failure. Better to get up something with a rest or two, or even to retreat if that's the right decision, than never to try harder things because you might not get the big O/S. I have to remind myself of this all the time. It's liberating, and if you do fail you'll almost certainly have learned a few things that can make you better for next time.
Alternatively, just do Fallout Corner, because unless someone's cleaned it recently it's pretty much a clip-up and you're never more than a rope length from the ground
4
In reply to Brian Pollock:
I agree with most of that though wouldn't say Houdini was any harder than Auricle. Like most VI,7 routes the latter is by definition not easy within the VI bracket but is at least fairly safe I think.
I agree with most of that though wouldn't say Houdini was any harder than Auricle. Like most VI,7 routes the latter is by definition not easy within the VI bracket but is at least fairly safe I think.
Post edited at 15:10
In reply to footwork:
Clearly no such person exists! (assuming you weren't joking)
> They clearly aren't comparable if people can climb IX but not E1 as mentioned above.
Clearly no such person exists! (assuming you weren't joking)
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I thought Houdini has a much bigger undertaking than Auricle. They are similar insofar as neither were particularly sustained but Auricle felt like a one move wonder modern style route with relatively straightforward route-finding.
Houdini's difficulties were more marked by out school awkwardness (i.e. monopoints and modern axes seemed to add very little and I probably would have preferred a pair of dual flat points for the awkward traverse). Its length and some tricky route finding in the upper half where it seems quite a few people have gone wrong also added to the overall difficulty.
I thought Tower Face of the Comb was very similar to Houdini albeit a little easier and more modern in style (at least on the crux 2nd pitch) despite when it was first done - which is quite incredible.
I can imagine Houdini being easier to someone with a background in big long mountaineering style routes compared to someone like myself who favours shorter more technical climbing.
I thought Houdini has a much bigger undertaking than Auricle. They are similar insofar as neither were particularly sustained but Auricle felt like a one move wonder modern style route with relatively straightforward route-finding.
Houdini's difficulties were more marked by out school awkwardness (i.e. monopoints and modern axes seemed to add very little and I probably would have preferred a pair of dual flat points for the awkward traverse). Its length and some tricky route finding in the upper half where it seems quite a few people have gone wrong also added to the overall difficulty.
I thought Tower Face of the Comb was very similar to Houdini albeit a little easier and more modern in style (at least on the crux 2nd pitch) despite when it was first done - which is quite incredible.
I can imagine Houdini being easier to someone with a background in big long mountaineering style routes compared to someone like myself who favours shorter more technical climbing.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
"Just to make you feel even worse, one my friends leads VIII, seconds IX but climbs around HVS rock."
Was mentioned above
"Just to make you feel even worse, one my friends leads VIII, seconds IX but climbs around HVS rock."
Was mentioned above
In reply to Goucho:
I had hoped that the title of this thread was going to open up some good Dolomite and other Alpine grading discussion. Seems I am to be disappointed.
I had hoped that the title of this thread was going to open up some good Dolomite and other Alpine grading discussion. Seems I am to be disappointed.
1
In reply to footwork:
I can only conclude that they just do that, not that they are unable to climb harder.
I can only conclude that they just do that, not that they are unable to climb harder.
In reply to Brian Pollock:
Not done it (would like to!). I might compare Houdini to Gargoyle Wall. Both 5 pitches and sustained (multiple V pitches with a little VI), with Houdini's extra length tempered slightly by the easier 2nd pitch and possibility of escape above the lower section.
>
> I thought Tower Face of the Comb was very similar to Houdini albeit a little easier and more modern in style
> I thought Tower Face of the Comb was very similar to Houdini albeit a little easier and more modern in style
Not done it (would like to!). I might compare Houdini to Gargoyle Wall. Both 5 pitches and sustained (multiple V pitches with a little VI), with Houdini's extra length tempered slightly by the easier 2nd pitch and possibility of escape above the lower section.
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