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Apart from the elite runners that are still getting quicker the times for club runners appear to be worse than ever. Can anyone explain why. My PB for a half set in 1984 of 71 mins would have got me 17th in the bath half yesterday. Back then i doubt i would have got top 50. I can remember doing 32.11 for a 10k and not even getting in the top 5 of a small town race. Nowadays i would win every local short road race with that standard.
In reply to bobbybin:
Running is becoming more accessible and more popular, resulting in a wider range of abilities entering?
Running is becoming more accessible and more popular, resulting in a wider range of abilities entering?
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In reply to bobbybin:
My view is that a lot of people who would have been good club athletes are doing others sports, so many more options and let's face it, even fairly average footballers (think 6th or 7th tier) can earn a lot more than even international runners.
On the bright side 27 men ran sub 30 at the Trafford 10k yesterday. I suspect the field at Wilmslow in a couple of weeks will be a lot deeper than Bath.
My view is that a lot of people who would have been good club athletes are doing others sports, so many more options and let's face it, even fairly average footballers (think 6th or 7th tier) can earn a lot more than even international runners.
On the bright side 27 men ran sub 30 at the Trafford 10k yesterday. I suspect the field at Wilmslow in a couple of weeks will be a lot deeper than Bath.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
I would have thought more people running would ensure times would get faster as more people are doing it
I would have thought more people running would ensure times would get faster as more people are doing it
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In reply to The New NickB:
Bath had 15000 runners which is the biggest field they have ever had, so why not more faster runners, i cant believe good distance runners are all playing football etc
Bath had 15000 runners which is the biggest field they have ever had, so why not more faster runners, i cant believe good distance runners are all playing football etc
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In reply to bobbybin
Way more races to enter today than there were back then?
More race choice means less class at each?
Perhaps?
I'd certainly be very surprised if there are fewer quality club runners operating in 2016 than there were in 1984.
Nothing other than postulation on my behalf mind.
Way more races to enter today than there were back then?
More race choice means less class at each?
Perhaps?
I'd certainly be very surprised if there are fewer quality club runners operating in 2016 than there were in 1984.
Nothing other than postulation on my behalf mind.
In reply to bobbybin:
Different people, they are not starting as juniors, training for 800s and 1500s on the track and XC in the winter and moving on to fast 5/10ks on the road. Retention of juniors after about age 15 is a real challenge for a lot of clubs. A lot of clubs don't even have junior sections.
> I would have thought more people running would ensure times would get faster as more people are doing it
Different people, they are not starting as juniors, training for 800s and 1500s on the track and XC in the winter and moving on to fast 5/10ks on the road. Retention of juniors after about age 15 is a real challenge for a lot of clubs. A lot of clubs don't even have junior sections.
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In reply to plyometrics:
Look at power of 10, the times just are not there.
Certainly more club runners these days, but certainly a lot less running sub 35 or even sub 40 10k.
> In reply to bobbybin
> Way more races to enter today than there were back then?
> More race choice means less class at each?
Look at power of 10, the times just are not there.
> Perhaps?
> I'd certainly be very surprised if there are fewer quality club runners operating in 2016 than there were in 1984.
Certainly more club runners these days, but certainly a lot less running sub 35 or even sub 40 10k.
In reply to The New NickB:
I didnt come from a track background, i came into it with the jogging boom of the early 80s. My theory is that is simply poor unstructured training, if i can do it then so can many of these runners competing today.
I didnt come from a track background, i came into it with the jogging boom of the early 80s. My theory is that is simply poor unstructured training, if i can do it then so can many of these runners competing today.
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In reply to bobbybin:
Not just football, all sorts of different sports.
Mass participation races attract a high proportion of fun runners, semi elite runners may prefer smaller events. Wilmslow will have a quarter of the field, a slower winning time, but more runners under 70 minutes.
> Bath had 15000 runners which is the biggest field they have ever had, so why not more faster runners, i cant believe good distance runners are all playing football etc
Not just football, all sorts of different sports.
Mass participation races attract a high proportion of fun runners, semi elite runners may prefer smaller events. Wilmslow will have a quarter of the field, a slower winning time, but more runners under 70 minutes.
In reply to bobbybin:
Competing is the key word here. Lots of the people running these days, even in clubs don't really compete, they run to complete.
I think you are right to an extent, I train harder than most at my club and with a structured approach, but I effectively came in to the sport as a Vet and there are more people in the club older than me than younger.
Competing is the key word here. Lots of the people running these days, even in clubs don't really compete, they run to complete.
I think you are right to an extent, I train harder than most at my club and with a structured approach, but I effectively came in to the sport as a Vet and there are more people in the club older than me than younger.
Post edited at 21:34
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In reply to The New NickB:
Yeah good points, it drives me mad as i know with some decent structured training many runners i see could be pretty quick. I offered to coach a couple but they didnt like the sound of the intervals!!
Yeah good points, it drives me mad as i know with some decent structured training many runners i see could be pretty quick. I offered to coach a couple but they didnt like the sound of the intervals!!
In reply to bobbybin:
LOL, I describe intervals to friends and they shudder, even though they have never done any!
People just aren't masochistic enough these days.
> I offered to coach a couple but they didnt like the sound of the intervals!!
LOL, I describe intervals to friends and they shudder, even though they have never done any!
People just aren't masochistic enough these days.
In reply to bobbybin:
Not just club runners. Seb Coe still holds the British 800m record, Steve Cram the mile. 7 of the 10 fastest Male British 10000m runners set their records before 1990. There's an old Guardian blog article on the subject.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/mar/11/faster...
> Apart from the elite runners that are still getting quicker the times for club runners appear to be worse than ever.
Not just club runners. Seb Coe still holds the British 800m record, Steve Cram the mile. 7 of the 10 fastest Male British 10000m runners set their records before 1990. There's an old Guardian blog article on the subject.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/mar/11/faster...
Post edited at 22:28
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In reply to planetmarshall:
To be fair, both those British records were World Records, in the case of Coe's 800 a record that has only been beaten by a couple of people globally.
1500m, 5,000m and 10,000m British Records have all been set in the last few years. Admittedly by the same multiple World and Olympic Champion.
It would be great though to have a generation of runners of the ability of Coe, Ovett, Cram and Morecroft, even Elliot, McKean, Rose and Martin for that matter.
To be fair, both those British records were World Records, in the case of Coe's 800 a record that has only been beaten by a couple of people globally.
1500m, 5,000m and 10,000m British Records have all been set in the last few years. Admittedly by the same multiple World and Olympic Champion.
It would be great though to have a generation of runners of the ability of Coe, Ovett, Cram and Morecroft, even Elliot, McKean, Rose and Martin for that matter.
Post edited at 22:52
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In reply to planetmarshall:
That's a very interesting blog. Thanks.
In the 80s I was cycling, walking and running all my journeys. So effectively training all day.
Now I spend 3 hours a day in the car commuting. Wasting time.
I know of people who ran 6 miles to work in the morning and 6 miles home in the evening. If you're a 5-6min/mile runner, that's just over 30min commute.
And training in groups, that works really well, no one pushes hard enough when training on their own.
I think the London Marathon has a lot to blame for people wanting to run The Marathon rather than concentrate on 1500m-5,000m and get really fast before stepping up to the longer distances.
That's a very interesting blog. Thanks.
In the 80s I was cycling, walking and running all my journeys. So effectively training all day.
Now I spend 3 hours a day in the car commuting. Wasting time.
I know of people who ran 6 miles to work in the morning and 6 miles home in the evening. If you're a 5-6min/mile runner, that's just over 30min commute.
And training in groups, that works really well, no one pushes hard enough when training on their own.
I think the London Marathon has a lot to blame for people wanting to run The Marathon rather than concentrate on 1500m-5,000m and get really fast before stepping up to the longer distances.
In reply to bobbybin:
I don't think people have the time to train properly any more. My experience of clubs is they mostly 40+
I don't think people have the time to train properly any more. My experience of clubs is they mostly 40+
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In reply to XXXX:
When I was running seriously, before my Fell running days, I was interested in the RRC distance races, 100 mile+, the result facts were often amazing in these races,wins by over an hour not unknown even with credible athletes finishing 'just' behind them. I think the longer the distance the more variables of prople having 'good' or 'bad' sections of the race.
I remember once coming into the village first in the Dunnerdale round, absolutaely spent, I was out kicked in the last few hundred yards. That was the nearest I ever got to winning a race.
When I was running seriously, before my Fell running days, I was interested in the RRC distance races, 100 mile+, the result facts were often amazing in these races,wins by over an hour not unknown even with credible athletes finishing 'just' behind them. I think the longer the distance the more variables of prople having 'good' or 'bad' sections of the race.
I remember once coming into the village first in the Dunnerdale round, absolutaely spent, I was out kicked in the last few hundred yards. That was the nearest I ever got to winning a race.
In reply to The New NickB:
Some possible reasons, just maybe:
The elite:
It is undeniable that the golden age of British running was in the late 70s/early 80s. Is it possible that this generation was inspired by Bannister etc and so was a bit of a one-off cohort? Further, quite a few of them were world beaters with the kudos and the rewards that come with it. British runners now know they will never be cutting edge because of the African domination so why strive to succeed in the sport when the rewards are never going to be there?
The general anti-elitist culture:
I'm in a couple of clubs and they vary in size and quality but there is a culture of fun and taking part. Obviously I don't know what it was like in the 80s but I suspect it was more un-mainstream, insular, macho with greater emphasis on blokes pushing each other and competing. I was reflecting on this a bit when I ran Trafford on the weekend, just a stones throw from my first ever race at school in the 80s. It was the only competitive inter-school thing I ever did at primary (combination of the effects of the teachers strikes and leftwing heads who didnt believe in competitive sport, I think)... maybe those sort of attitudes have fed through to today's 20/30s adults?
Training:
I don't believe this can be the case because although as far as I can tell the basic principles of training were in place by the middle of last century, there have continued to be refinements so the quality of training should be better than ever. But even though one club is more professional than the other it still leaves a bit to be desired. I guess it's better for the promising young kids but even a great deal of keen adult amateurs could benefit from advice on structured training and a bit of application.
Schools:
Sadly, with my kids in primary school now, there still seems to be little systematic idenfitication of talent and encouragement, and very little organised sport. Loads of reasons for this obviously. The kids that do do sport just seem to get taken to football training by their parents (and I live in an area where there are loads of keen runners and a thriving adult and junior park run. It must be dire in more deprived areas.)
Some possible reasons, just maybe:
The elite:
It is undeniable that the golden age of British running was in the late 70s/early 80s. Is it possible that this generation was inspired by Bannister etc and so was a bit of a one-off cohort? Further, quite a few of them were world beaters with the kudos and the rewards that come with it. British runners now know they will never be cutting edge because of the African domination so why strive to succeed in the sport when the rewards are never going to be there?
The general anti-elitist culture:
I'm in a couple of clubs and they vary in size and quality but there is a culture of fun and taking part. Obviously I don't know what it was like in the 80s but I suspect it was more un-mainstream, insular, macho with greater emphasis on blokes pushing each other and competing. I was reflecting on this a bit when I ran Trafford on the weekend, just a stones throw from my first ever race at school in the 80s. It was the only competitive inter-school thing I ever did at primary (combination of the effects of the teachers strikes and leftwing heads who didnt believe in competitive sport, I think)... maybe those sort of attitudes have fed through to today's 20/30s adults?
Training:
I don't believe this can be the case because although as far as I can tell the basic principles of training were in place by the middle of last century, there have continued to be refinements so the quality of training should be better than ever. But even though one club is more professional than the other it still leaves a bit to be desired. I guess it's better for the promising young kids but even a great deal of keen adult amateurs could benefit from advice on structured training and a bit of application.
Schools:
Sadly, with my kids in primary school now, there still seems to be little systematic idenfitication of talent and encouragement, and very little organised sport. Loads of reasons for this obviously. The kids that do do sport just seem to get taken to football training by their parents (and I live in an area where there are loads of keen runners and a thriving adult and junior park run. It must be dire in more deprived areas.)
In reply to bobbybin:
Sadly the UK coaching is dominated by terrible runners. Very few of the older elite runners want to coach unless coaching elites or just want to continue running themselves.
You don't have to have been a good runner to coach but many do not appreciate the need for hard training.
I help coach our track guys, our best male at a high school, is running mid 14 for 5k. Most are low 15 at least. They do their sessions but they also run fairly hard all the time, natural competitiveness leads to that. Almost never slower than a 7 minute mile. Last night we did 8-12 at 6:20-6:30 pace depending on distance required. Sometimes I worry it is too quick all the time but they get the results and more importantly enjoy working hard.
The quality is more spread now. Many of the UK's elite will target European races. Robbie Simpson has been training in Europe all winter. Stronger fields, better conditions.
> Yeah good points, it drives me mad as i know with some decent structured training many runners i see could be pretty quick. I offered to coach a couple but they didnt like the sound of the intervals!!
Sadly the UK coaching is dominated by terrible runners. Very few of the older elite runners want to coach unless coaching elites or just want to continue running themselves.
You don't have to have been a good runner to coach but many do not appreciate the need for hard training.
I help coach our track guys, our best male at a high school, is running mid 14 for 5k. Most are low 15 at least. They do their sessions but they also run fairly hard all the time, natural competitiveness leads to that. Almost never slower than a 7 minute mile. Last night we did 8-12 at 6:20-6:30 pace depending on distance required. Sometimes I worry it is too quick all the time but they get the results and more importantly enjoy working hard.
The quality is more spread now. Many of the UK's elite will target European races. Robbie Simpson has been training in Europe all winter. Stronger fields, better conditions.
Post edited at 12:12
In reply to XXXX:
Running, at the club level, is largely an old mans sport. At 36 I'm still one of the younger runners in most races.
But many come into the sport after other sports as its more time friendly, cheap and fits into family life well. Fell running is dominated by ex climbers.
> I don't think people have the time to train properly any more. My experience of clubs is they mostly 40+
Running, at the club level, is largely an old mans sport. At 36 I'm still one of the younger runners in most races.
But many come into the sport after other sports as its more time friendly, cheap and fits into family life well. Fell running is dominated by ex climbers.
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In reply to bobbybin:
slightly off-topic, but nontheless related is this article from the Indy last year:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/why-japans-incredible-long-dis...
Particularly this section:
"All of the race's 10 stages are close to a half-marathon in distance, and over the two days, an incredible 30 students run a half-marathon equivalent time of under 63 minutes – and that's excluding the times on the race's sixth and fastest stage, which is mostly downhill.
In race after race, the disparity between UK and Japanese road running is jaw-dropping, especially considering that participation in marathons and half-marathons is pretty much equally as popular and widespread in the UK as it is in Japan. Only six British men have run half-marathons in under 66 minutes so far this year; in Japan, in a single race at the recent Japanese university half-marathon championships, 265 student runners managed it.
It was statistics like these that inspired me to travel to Japan, on a mission to find out just why they were so good. What is behind this incredible depth of running talent?
After six months, the answer was fairly clear. In Japan, road-running and marathons are a serious sport. The top runners are stars. They are paid to join the best company teams, earn a good salary and are able to live well as professional athletes. I estimate there to be around 1,500 professional distance runners in Japan. In the UK, there are about 20."
slightly off-topic, but nontheless related is this article from the Indy last year:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/why-japans-incredible-long-dis...
Particularly this section:
"All of the race's 10 stages are close to a half-marathon in distance, and over the two days, an incredible 30 students run a half-marathon equivalent time of under 63 minutes – and that's excluding the times on the race's sixth and fastest stage, which is mostly downhill.
In race after race, the disparity between UK and Japanese road running is jaw-dropping, especially considering that participation in marathons and half-marathons is pretty much equally as popular and widespread in the UK as it is in Japan. Only six British men have run half-marathons in under 66 minutes so far this year; in Japan, in a single race at the recent Japanese university half-marathon championships, 265 student runners managed it.
It was statistics like these that inspired me to travel to Japan, on a mission to find out just why they were so good. What is behind this incredible depth of running talent?
After six months, the answer was fairly clear. In Japan, road-running and marathons are a serious sport. The top runners are stars. They are paid to join the best company teams, earn a good salary and are able to live well as professional athletes. I estimate there to be around 1,500 professional distance runners in Japan. In the UK, there are about 20."
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
Or many don't want to. Running is a really convenient fitness activity because other than a quick shower afterwards 100% of the time spent from walking out of the door is spent on the activity. It's nice to push yourself a bit in a race. But not everyone wants one sport to take over their lives.
Those who want to be the best need to train hard, but I'd venture that these days most runners have no interest in that. And why does it matter if that is the case? If people are doing healthy sporting activity rather than sitting watching TV, who cares?
> You don't have to have been a good runner to coach but many do not appreciate the need for hard training.
Or many don't want to. Running is a really convenient fitness activity because other than a quick shower afterwards 100% of the time spent from walking out of the door is spent on the activity. It's nice to push yourself a bit in a race. But not everyone wants one sport to take over their lives.
Those who want to be the best need to train hard, but I'd venture that these days most runners have no interest in that. And why does it matter if that is the case? If people are doing healthy sporting activity rather than sitting watching TV, who cares?
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In reply to plyometrics:
Money and prestige, you can make a living in Japan and be famous and popular from domestic racing at a good, but not top international standard. The guys that I know who run at that sort of standard, make small amounts in prize money, get a bit of free kit, but have to work full time. Japan has 10 or 20 times as many people running sub 64 as we do, but nobody running sub 61, never mind sub 60. The Ekiden, the relays in question are effectively the national sport in Japan.
Money and prestige, you can make a living in Japan and be famous and popular from domestic racing at a good, but not top international standard. The guys that I know who run at that sort of standard, make small amounts in prize money, get a bit of free kit, but have to work full time. Japan has 10 or 20 times as many people running sub 64 as we do, but nobody running sub 61, never mind sub 60. The Ekiden, the relays in question are effectively the national sport in Japan.
In reply to Neil Williams:
of course,
I've no issues with that.
What bothers is me is when people ask for advice on say how to run a quick marathon or ultra and people chime in, 'run back to backs'.. or 'its all in the head' or 'its all about time on the feet'.. because they did that for years and completed 100 marathons or x ultra's.. all in slow times. Which is fine but they have little to no experience in training as a means to improve.
of course,
I've no issues with that.
What bothers is me is when people ask for advice on say how to run a quick marathon or ultra and people chime in, 'run back to backs'.. or 'its all in the head' or 'its all about time on the feet'.. because they did that for years and completed 100 marathons or x ultra's.. all in slow times. Which is fine but they have little to no experience in training as a means to improve.
In reply to bobbybin:
I think we are soft. Vast majority of youngsters look for kudos and glamour in their chosen sport now, something to impress others on social media "look at me......".
Running your bollox off covered in snot and gob, every day through a crap wet winter (that's just the training) impresses nobody. They don't even get to buy and wear fancy kit and it all hurts, every time. No way to pull the girls.
I think we are soft. Vast majority of youngsters look for kudos and glamour in their chosen sport now, something to impress others on social media "look at me......".
Running your bollox off covered in snot and gob, every day through a crap wet winter (that's just the training) impresses nobody. They don't even get to buy and wear fancy kit and it all hurts, every time. No way to pull the girls.
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In reply to bobbybin:
Perhaps the times in the 70's & 80's were a product of the running boom? It feels like we're at the start of another spike in participation so maybe the glory days will come rolling back?
Diet could also have something to do with it. I'd be interested to know if the younger athletes now have the same discipline to make / maintain racing weight.
Perhaps the times in the 70's & 80's were a product of the running boom? It feels like we're at the start of another spike in participation so maybe the glory days will come rolling back?
Diet could also have something to do with it. I'd be interested to know if the younger athletes now have the same discipline to make / maintain racing weight.
In reply to Moley:
You say that but XC is having a big comeback at the moment and that's as far from glamorous as you can get.
> I think we are soft. Vast majority of youngsters look for kudos and glamour in their chosen sport now, something to impress others on social media "look at me......".
> Running your bollox off covered in snot and gob, every day through a crap wet winter (that's just the training) impresses nobody. They don't even get to buy and wear fancy kit and it all hurts, every time. No way to pull the girls.
You say that but XC is having a big comeback at the moment and that's as far from glamorous as you can get.
In reply to bobbybin: training is an issue - back in the old days you did a lot and went hard 2 or 3 times a week. Now it seems way too complicated, and rather low in volume.
It does appear that the sub elite field has disappeared. If i plug in my pb's from 1995 into last years rankings I am a lot , lot further up the pile, including number 1 at 5 miles. Does that even exist now?
It does appear that the sub elite field has disappeared. If i plug in my pb's from 1995 into last years rankings I am a lot , lot further up the pile, including number 1 at 5 miles. Does that even exist now?
In reply to galpinos:
That is great news, if youngsters (and not so young) participate in XC it's a start. But it is odd that most race times seem to have slowed over distance, I know there's a few records gone on track and road, but as has been said by others the general performance is down.
I don't think the majority of runners are hungry for it anymore and if they can win a race in 30 minutes, why train to run 28 minutes?
> You say that but XC is having a big comeback at the moment and that's as far from glamorous as you can get.
That is great news, if youngsters (and not so young) participate in XC it's a start. But it is odd that most race times seem to have slowed over distance, I know there's a few records gone on track and road, but as has been said by others the general performance is down.
I don't think the majority of runners are hungry for it anymore and if they can win a race in 30 minutes, why train to run 28 minutes?
A lot of clubs were created in the 70s and 80s. There's a lot of inertia to get through any change. In my club; some of the coaches are personal trainers. So they have a conflict of interests when it comes to training people that they could sign up for personal training and make money from them.
I suggested new members were assigned a personal coach which was roundly rejected as it "would lead to a culture where coaches only looked after their own athletes".
Very odd statement, unless of course you already have a group of your own athletes.
I suggested new members were assigned a personal coach which was roundly rejected as it "would lead to a culture where coaches only looked after their own athletes".
Very odd statement, unless of course you already have a group of your own athletes.
In reply to DancingOnRock:
I think there are too many clubs, too many power hungry divisions leading to lots of small clubs. I don't think this helps raise standards..
Competition, training people drives people on, all the top runners in an area training together will drive them on. Too many small clubs counters this.
I think there are too many clubs, too many power hungry divisions leading to lots of small clubs. I don't think this helps raise standards..
Competition, training people drives people on, all the top runners in an area training together will drive them on. Too many small clubs counters this.
In reply to Roadrunner5:
I agree to an extent, we are a club with a long history and a few very high achievers in the past, but we simply don't have the numbers of athletes running fast times to compete with the top clubs in the region. We do however have good relationships with a number of local clubs and you might see a training group with people from a number of clubs in it.
You get quite a lot of runners enticed away from there local club, possibly one where they have trained at from childhood, promised amazing training groups, coaching support and the opportunity to be part of top performing relay teams. Sometimes it's works, sometimes it really doesn't, I've got two mates who rejoined their original club within 12 months.
There is quite an interesting thing on Facebook called the Sheffield Project, it has members from all the clubs around Sheffield and others who aren't club members, the idea being to create ability based training groups as well as share information on coaching and performance, complementing the club set ups.
I'm majorly pissed off at the moment, I'm struggling to get a team together for the Northern 12 stage. We comfortably qualified for the National 12 stage 2 years ago, surprising a lot of people in the process.
> I think there are too many clubs, too many power hungry divisions leading to lots of small clubs. I don't think this helps raise standards..
I agree to an extent, we are a club with a long history and a few very high achievers in the past, but we simply don't have the numbers of athletes running fast times to compete with the top clubs in the region. We do however have good relationships with a number of local clubs and you might see a training group with people from a number of clubs in it.
You get quite a lot of runners enticed away from there local club, possibly one where they have trained at from childhood, promised amazing training groups, coaching support and the opportunity to be part of top performing relay teams. Sometimes it's works, sometimes it really doesn't, I've got two mates who rejoined their original club within 12 months.
There is quite an interesting thing on Facebook called the Sheffield Project, it has members from all the clubs around Sheffield and others who aren't club members, the idea being to create ability based training groups as well as share information on coaching and performance, complementing the club set ups.
I'm majorly pissed off at the moment, I'm struggling to get a team together for the Northern 12 stage. We comfortably qualified for the National 12 stage 2 years ago, surprising a lot of people in the process.
In reply to The New NickB:
That Sheffield idea is really good.. That's exactly the approach that is needed.
That Sheffield idea is really good.. That's exactly the approach that is needed.
In reply to Roadrunner5:
There's something in that I'm sure. Up the road in Liverpool, Knowsley split from Liverpool RC a couple of years ago. Kirkby Milers have now popped up in the same area from some sort of split.
Some clubs seem to struggle to accommodate new people ...so people start meeting up outside the existing club structure ...then before too long they're filling in the forms and starting a new club. That's happened down the road just recently too.
> I think there are too many clubs, too many power hungry divisions leading to lots of small clubs. I don't think this helps raise standards..
There's something in that I'm sure. Up the road in Liverpool, Knowsley split from Liverpool RC a couple of years ago. Kirkby Milers have now popped up in the same area from some sort of split.
Some clubs seem to struggle to accommodate new people ...so people start meeting up outside the existing club structure ...then before too long they're filling in the forms and starting a new club. That's happened down the road just recently too.
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