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This might be a daft idea, so please bear with me.
I've done a lot of ski mountaineering in the Alps using alpine touring (AT) gear, but I now live in a region with lots of prepared Nordic ski trails and where the mountains have long, flat approaches. I'm looking for a setup I can use for multi-day touring in hilly (but not extreme) terrain. I'd also like to be able to ski-in to mountain routes, switch my skis for crampons for some easy climbing, and then ski back out afterwards. I'm not willing to spends thousands on ultra-light AT gear, so I've been looking at Nordic-style "back country" options. It seems there are essentially two choices:
1. New Nordic Norm Back Country (NNN-BC) bindings and boots mounted on fairly skinny skis (e.g. Fischer E99s), or
2. 75 mm, 3-pin bindings and boots (with the funny duck-billed front) mounted on slightly fatter skis (e.g. Fischer 109s).
Both these options should be a joy on the flats compared to my AT gear, but I've read the NNN-BC setup will be hard to ski down in anything other than perfect conditions. The 75 mm option sounds better coming down, but it won't be as good on the flats and getting crampons on the duck-billed boots looks awkward.
The Nordic boots I've looked at so far seem similar in terms of stiffness and support to old-school mountaineering boots like e.g. Scarpa Mantas. It feels as though what I really want is an NNN-BC setup, but with the ability to lock the heels down for more control during the descents. Even better, a lightweight downhill binding that will accept my mountaineering boots would save me from spending £200+ on a new pair of boots. Obviously skiing downhill in leather boots would be grim compared to my AT setup, but presumably it wouldn't be any worse than coming down on NNN-BC gear? It would also be a perfect setup for use with crampons.
Silvretta used to make the "500" binding, which was compatible with mountaineering boots. Unfortunately (as far as I can tell) it's no longer manufactured. Are there any modern alternatives? A mountaineering boot with Dynafit compatibility mounted on a metal-edged Nordic ski sounds like a good option to me. Is there any reason why this would be a terrible idea? If not, I'm tempted to have a go at a DIY version.
Has anyone here with Nordic skiing experience also used e.g. the Silvretta 500s? With leather mountain boots, would there be much difference on long flat tours between the 500s and a similar NNN-BC or 75 mm setup? Is skiing something like the 500s downhill in leather boots likely to end in disaster? Presumably it's got to be better/more capable than NNN-BC, at least?
Thanks!
I've done a lot of ski mountaineering in the Alps using alpine touring (AT) gear, but I now live in a region with lots of prepared Nordic ski trails and where the mountains have long, flat approaches. I'm looking for a setup I can use for multi-day touring in hilly (but not extreme) terrain. I'd also like to be able to ski-in to mountain routes, switch my skis for crampons for some easy climbing, and then ski back out afterwards. I'm not willing to spends thousands on ultra-light AT gear, so I've been looking at Nordic-style "back country" options. It seems there are essentially two choices:
1. New Nordic Norm Back Country (NNN-BC) bindings and boots mounted on fairly skinny skis (e.g. Fischer E99s), or
2. 75 mm, 3-pin bindings and boots (with the funny duck-billed front) mounted on slightly fatter skis (e.g. Fischer 109s).
Both these options should be a joy on the flats compared to my AT gear, but I've read the NNN-BC setup will be hard to ski down in anything other than perfect conditions. The 75 mm option sounds better coming down, but it won't be as good on the flats and getting crampons on the duck-billed boots looks awkward.
The Nordic boots I've looked at so far seem similar in terms of stiffness and support to old-school mountaineering boots like e.g. Scarpa Mantas. It feels as though what I really want is an NNN-BC setup, but with the ability to lock the heels down for more control during the descents. Even better, a lightweight downhill binding that will accept my mountaineering boots would save me from spending £200+ on a new pair of boots. Obviously skiing downhill in leather boots would be grim compared to my AT setup, but presumably it wouldn't be any worse than coming down on NNN-BC gear? It would also be a perfect setup for use with crampons.
Silvretta used to make the "500" binding, which was compatible with mountaineering boots. Unfortunately (as far as I can tell) it's no longer manufactured. Are there any modern alternatives? A mountaineering boot with Dynafit compatibility mounted on a metal-edged Nordic ski sounds like a good option to me. Is there any reason why this would be a terrible idea? If not, I'm tempted to have a go at a DIY version.
Has anyone here with Nordic skiing experience also used e.g. the Silvretta 500s? With leather mountain boots, would there be much difference on long flat tours between the 500s and a similar NNN-BC or 75 mm setup? Is skiing something like the 500s downhill in leather boots likely to end in disaster? Presumably it's got to be better/more capable than NNN-BC, at least?
Thanks!
In reply to Sammo:
I'm midway through fitting some silvretta bindings (£10) charity shop downstairs to my gfs old 145 touring skis to use like this. There is a review on here about skiing in climbing boots which gives good info ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3493 ) also cold thistles blog has him trying to do a diy fit of dynafit insert to a pair of boots ( http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/it-is-about-time-tech-fitting-on.... ) The auction site may be one to watch for silvretta bindings.
I'm midway through fitting some silvretta bindings (£10) charity shop downstairs to my gfs old 145 touring skis to use like this. There is a review on here about skiing in climbing boots which gives good info ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3493 ) also cold thistles blog has him trying to do a diy fit of dynafit insert to a pair of boots ( http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/it-is-about-time-tech-fitting-on.... ) The auction site may be one to watch for silvretta bindings.
Post edited at 10:53
In reply to Sammo:
In terms of control there is not much difference between NNN and 75mm, NNN are a lot more convenient to use. Skiing down on Nordic gear is a bit more survival skiing, stem turns and steep turns are very useful. Also planning your descent to avoid those too steep slopes. With both bindings there is no release, with the heel free there is lots of give in the system, with it locked you risk snapping something. If you're very good you can telemark on this type of kit, most people can't that's why they developed heavy tele kit.
Putting climbing boots into Silvretta's, the main problem is that climbing boots aren't stiff enough to transfer pressure onto the bindings release mechanism. So instead of popping off you just twist until the next thing in the link gives, normally that's your ankle.
In terms of control there is not much difference between NNN and 75mm, NNN are a lot more convenient to use. Skiing down on Nordic gear is a bit more survival skiing, stem turns and steep turns are very useful. Also planning your descent to avoid those too steep slopes. With both bindings there is no release, with the heel free there is lots of give in the system, with it locked you risk snapping something. If you're very good you can telemark on this type of kit, most people can't that's why they developed heavy tele kit.
Putting climbing boots into Silvretta's, the main problem is that climbing boots aren't stiff enough to transfer pressure onto the bindings release mechanism. So instead of popping off you just twist until the next thing in the link gives, normally that's your ankle.
In reply to OwenM:
I tried silverettas last year on 185 ancient skis using old full grain scarpa boots (think stiffer heavier Mantas).
downhill was tough!! too much ski and too little boot. The silerettas did release for me though, so no issues breaking my ankles. My next attempt is less ski 140? and maybe some cheap old double plastic boots, Infernos?
Its definitely a compromise but way cheaper than the latest ski-mo gear which is crazy expensive and you end up climbing in climbing boots, not ski boots.
can't imagine being happy climbing in my three pin boots and I really don't want to revisit tele skiing.
The ukc article was good and referenced the modern alternative to silvrettas which are plasticy, break often but are fully warrantied.
I tried silverettas last year on 185 ancient skis using old full grain scarpa boots (think stiffer heavier Mantas).
downhill was tough!! too much ski and too little boot. The silerettas did release for me though, so no issues breaking my ankles. My next attempt is less ski 140? and maybe some cheap old double plastic boots, Infernos?
Its definitely a compromise but way cheaper than the latest ski-mo gear which is crazy expensive and you end up climbing in climbing boots, not ski boots.
can't imagine being happy climbing in my three pin boots and I really don't want to revisit tele skiing.
The ukc article was good and referenced the modern alternative to silvrettas which are plasticy, break often but are fully warrantied.
In reply to Sammo:
Hi, first thing if you are wanting to lock your heel down on free heel gear - sorry but this is suggesting you have a tendency to sit back and push on your heels - bad technique on any set up.
Silvretta 500's are osolete for good reason, even back in the day they were known as "leg breakers"
If your aim is to save money, the cheapest and most convienent approach to climbs would be on snow shoes. Not only could you pick up a pair for less than £100, you have the choice of wearing most types of footwear.
Good luck
Hi, first thing if you are wanting to lock your heel down on free heel gear - sorry but this is suggesting you have a tendency to sit back and push on your heels - bad technique on any set up.
Silvretta 500's are osolete for good reason, even back in the day they were known as "leg breakers"
If your aim is to save money, the cheapest and most convienent approach to climbs would be on snow shoes. Not only could you pick up a pair for less than £100, you have the choice of wearing most types of footwear.
Good luck
In reply to all:
Thanks everyone for the replies - some interesting stuff to think about. In following-up links from the Cold Thistle blog, I also came across this:
http://polarvortexnj.blogspot.no/2016/03/modifying-la-sportiva-spantik.html
which provides some more recent details on DIY Dynafits. There's also this:
http://www.alpcontrol.com/carac.html
which is getting a bit wacky for my tastes, but an impressive effort nevertheless!
The Hagan skis mentioned in Jon Griffith's article look fun, it's just a pity they rely on discontinued bindings to create a sturdy setup. I'm sure Silvretta 500s and the like have their problems, but I reckon they have their place too.
I'll probably end up with an NNN-BC setup for flattish trips, and I'll stick to my AT gear for anything steeper or where crampons might be useful. I also like the idea of modifying some old boots to accept Dynafit bindings, as in the link above, but that'll have to wait a bit.
Thanks everyone for the replies - some interesting stuff to think about. In following-up links from the Cold Thistle blog, I also came across this:
http://polarvortexnj.blogspot.no/2016/03/modifying-la-sportiva-spantik.html
which provides some more recent details on DIY Dynafits. There's also this:
http://www.alpcontrol.com/carac.html
which is getting a bit wacky for my tastes, but an impressive effort nevertheless!
The Hagan skis mentioned in Jon Griffith's article look fun, it's just a pity they rely on discontinued bindings to create a sturdy setup. I'm sure Silvretta 500s and the like have their problems, but I reckon they have their place too.
I'll probably end up with an NNN-BC setup for flattish trips, and I'll stick to my AT gear for anything steeper or where crampons might be useful. I also like the idea of modifying some old boots to accept Dynafit bindings, as in the link above, but that'll have to wait a bit.
In reply to Sammo:
The boots for free heel skiing will never work like even Mantas with crampons, because they have to bend under the foot in order to be able to ski in them. This is true whether you have super-light track skiing shoes which are basically like trainers with a wee metal bar at the front to go into the binding or big beefy buckled leather tele boots. All have to bend under the foot. You can put crampons on tele boots, I've done this plenty of times, but you will always feel the boot bending under the foot. I guess with modern NTN boots (no duckbill) you might be able to fit a rigid crampon (although not many of those models around anymore) and climb in them, like you climb in AT boots, but I've not heard reports of whether its any good. In Finland I used to sometimes ski to ice climbs using my Marquette skis https://marquette-backcountry.com/ with tele bindings/boots but I would just carry my light boots with me and change at the bottom of the ice falls.
For touring, rather than NNN BC what about light plastic tele boots and a 3 pin binding? Probably easier to control when not on a track.
The boots for free heel skiing will never work like even Mantas with crampons, because they have to bend under the foot in order to be able to ski in them. This is true whether you have super-light track skiing shoes which are basically like trainers with a wee metal bar at the front to go into the binding or big beefy buckled leather tele boots. All have to bend under the foot. You can put crampons on tele boots, I've done this plenty of times, but you will always feel the boot bending under the foot. I guess with modern NTN boots (no duckbill) you might be able to fit a rigid crampon (although not many of those models around anymore) and climb in them, like you climb in AT boots, but I've not heard reports of whether its any good. In Finland I used to sometimes ski to ice climbs using my Marquette skis https://marquette-backcountry.com/ with tele bindings/boots but I would just carry my light boots with me and change at the bottom of the ice falls.
For touring, rather than NNN BC what about light plastic tele boots and a 3 pin binding? Probably easier to control when not on a track.
Post edited at 12:19
In reply to TobyA:
Thanks Toby, that's a good point regarding boot flex. I think NTN gear would overlap a lot in terms of weight, suitability etc. my with existing AT setup. It seems as though modern telemark and alpine kit are slowly merging together, with telemark becoming heavier and sturdier, and AT ever lighter.
I don't actually need a setup that will take fully rigid crampons. If I'm going to do any "proper" mountaineering, I'll usually be happy to approach on my AT gear and either climb in my ski boots or carry mountaineering boots and switch at the bottom. This is what I've always done in the Alps in the past. What I'm really after in any new setup is something that is fun to ski both up and down, and which preferably allows climbing on easy rock and mixed terrain without the need for a second pair of shoes. Something as stiff as 3-4 season hill walking boots plus strap-on crampons would be fine. NNC-BC boots look OK with crampons, but I'd worry about wrecking the toe bar when scrambling; 75 mm looks awkward for both crampons and scrambling - when you say you've had crampons on tele boots, do you mean 75 mm or something else? I've also read a lot of comments similar to OwenM's above, essentially saying coming down on Nordic kit is often "survival skiing". This seems a shame because some of my best moments in the hills have been descending from routes on AT gear.
The choice will hopefully be obvious once I get to know the region and my aspirations become clearer.
Thanks Toby, that's a good point regarding boot flex. I think NTN gear would overlap a lot in terms of weight, suitability etc. my with existing AT setup. It seems as though modern telemark and alpine kit are slowly merging together, with telemark becoming heavier and sturdier, and AT ever lighter.
I don't actually need a setup that will take fully rigid crampons. If I'm going to do any "proper" mountaineering, I'll usually be happy to approach on my AT gear and either climb in my ski boots or carry mountaineering boots and switch at the bottom. This is what I've always done in the Alps in the past. What I'm really after in any new setup is something that is fun to ski both up and down, and which preferably allows climbing on easy rock and mixed terrain without the need for a second pair of shoes. Something as stiff as 3-4 season hill walking boots plus strap-on crampons would be fine. NNC-BC boots look OK with crampons, but I'd worry about wrecking the toe bar when scrambling; 75 mm looks awkward for both crampons and scrambling - when you say you've had crampons on tele boots, do you mean 75 mm or something else? I've also read a lot of comments similar to OwenM's above, essentially saying coming down on Nordic kit is often "survival skiing". This seems a shame because some of my best moments in the hills have been descending from routes on AT gear.
The choice will hopefully be obvious once I get to know the region and my aspirations become clearer.
In reply to Sammo:
Having been X-country skiing for over 32yrs, Tele for ages, been AT & have skied various other set-ups & mounted/fixed the stuff, I'll ad my 2p worth.
1. Any X-country ski will have a much greater camber than a tele/AT/downhill/AT ski. This is NOT what you want when skiing sleeper than green run. I have done hop tele's on the Gunbarrrel at CG (narrow blue) on Fischer E99, 200cm with NNN-BC boots/bindings. I also know people who have done the same but on black runs. Can be done, but requires skill, & not great if you are tired at the end of the day trying to enjoy the last downhill slope!! Camber works against you as you can not get the whole edge to properly cut/grip into the slope, also the radius/sidecut is very much less on a X-country ski so difficult to carve/parallel.
2.Petzl to a conversion bail for "duckbill" 75mm boots, I have it on a set of Petzl 12point crampons & therefore anything upto grade III ice is fine as the crampon has adjustable front offset to stop the bill sticking out over the points. NTN tele boots & AT boots work with any crampon as is. Flex in plastic tele boots is still stiff in the sole part (even with the bellows) so not a problem for modern semi-ridged crampons either. Even the Scarpa T4 tele boot is about as stiff as a B2/B3 walking boot.
3. NTN tele boots are compatible with AT TLT bindings, & companies make NTN fronts with TLT heels bindings, a few of the franken bindings exist , meidjo & ATK.
https://www.the-m-equipment.com/en/
http://www.atkrace.it/categoria-prodotto/bindings/telemark-en/?lang=en
4. Any decent X-country ski will outperform any tele or AT setup for K&G (kick & glide) due to the camber on the ski. However I have found that setting my Scarpa T2 boots to be in walk mode with the buckles clipped (not loose as in walk) & in free pivot mode (I have 7TM power tour) I can with skins get a decent K&G & almost X-country them!
5. NNN-BC is very good, you could fit to a set of "downhill/AT/tele skis" but that would require skins for K&G, however the boots are really B0/B1 stiffness. You could get a decent tele setup & use T2 or the lower cut T4 boots. This would give you better K&G & comfort, but the stability & control of the proper ski & binding for the downhill, & required stiffness for climbing in crampons.
Personally I would hire a super stiff NNN-BC set-up & see for yourself what it will do. Then hire a soft tele/plasic T4 set up etc.
I have my big tele set up for mountains & when I know I will have a decent slope I want to ski & basically put up with the downside of bad K&G & weight compared to my X-country set-up. My back country x-country set-up is for when I know there are no big slopes etc. I also have two sets of track skis also...
Having been X-country skiing for over 32yrs, Tele for ages, been AT & have skied various other set-ups & mounted/fixed the stuff, I'll ad my 2p worth.
1. Any X-country ski will have a much greater camber than a tele/AT/downhill/AT ski. This is NOT what you want when skiing sleeper than green run. I have done hop tele's on the Gunbarrrel at CG (narrow blue) on Fischer E99, 200cm with NNN-BC boots/bindings. I also know people who have done the same but on black runs. Can be done, but requires skill, & not great if you are tired at the end of the day trying to enjoy the last downhill slope!! Camber works against you as you can not get the whole edge to properly cut/grip into the slope, also the radius/sidecut is very much less on a X-country ski so difficult to carve/parallel.
2.Petzl to a conversion bail for "duckbill" 75mm boots, I have it on a set of Petzl 12point crampons & therefore anything upto grade III ice is fine as the crampon has adjustable front offset to stop the bill sticking out over the points. NTN tele boots & AT boots work with any crampon as is. Flex in plastic tele boots is still stiff in the sole part (even with the bellows) so not a problem for modern semi-ridged crampons either. Even the Scarpa T4 tele boot is about as stiff as a B2/B3 walking boot.
3. NTN tele boots are compatible with AT TLT bindings, & companies make NTN fronts with TLT heels bindings, a few of the franken bindings exist , meidjo & ATK.
https://www.the-m-equipment.com/en/
http://www.atkrace.it/categoria-prodotto/bindings/telemark-en/?lang=en
4. Any decent X-country ski will outperform any tele or AT setup for K&G (kick & glide) due to the camber on the ski. However I have found that setting my Scarpa T2 boots to be in walk mode with the buckles clipped (not loose as in walk) & in free pivot mode (I have 7TM power tour) I can with skins get a decent K&G & almost X-country them!
5. NNN-BC is very good, you could fit to a set of "downhill/AT/tele skis" but that would require skins for K&G, however the boots are really B0/B1 stiffness. You could get a decent tele setup & use T2 or the lower cut T4 boots. This would give you better K&G & comfort, but the stability & control of the proper ski & binding for the downhill, & required stiffness for climbing in crampons.
Personally I would hire a super stiff NNN-BC set-up & see for yourself what it will do. Then hire a soft tele/plasic T4 set up etc.
I have my big tele set up for mountains & when I know I will have a decent slope I want to ski & basically put up with the downside of bad K&G & weight compared to my X-country set-up. My back country x-country set-up is for when I know there are no big slopes etc. I also have two sets of track skis also...
1
Over the years I've either tried or seen many attempts to mix alpine & nordic gear but none have really been succesful. For example, back in the eary/mid 1980s the Aberdeen Uni XC ski Club (which despite its name had quite a few members who used AT gear or used Silvretta bindings with plastic climbing boots) had a few pairs of nordic cambered skis with Silvretta 300 bindings (ancient ancestor of the 500s) which for a while were popular for skiing into climbs, but were not very easy to turn. I also used to use XC grip wax on alpine skis for the flats/undulating terrain (lots of that in the Cairngorms) - works quite well on some but not all snow types. But much as I prefer nordic gear, I think for combining skiing & climbing, AT gear is the way to go - that said I've climbed grade II routes in Scotland & scrambled a bit in the Alps in tele boots & stiff crampons.
But today at Chapelle des Bois (Jura), I saw someone with very wide skis, & maybe 170cm long with strap bindings which I guess could be used with almost any type of boot although I've no idea how they would ski
Post edited at 17:36
In reply to Sammo:
My tele boots are 16 year old Scarpa T2s, they are OK with crampons, normally my old G12s newmatics but they have to sit further forward due to the duckbill. You can sometimes get the duckbill through the bar of a full step in but then the front points disappear under it.
For climbing and then skiing down and having fun, AT gear has to be the only real way to go I reckon.
My tele boots are 16 year old Scarpa T2s, they are OK with crampons, normally my old G12s newmatics but they have to sit further forward due to the duckbill. You can sometimes get the duckbill through the bar of a full step in but then the front points disappear under it.
For climbing and then skiing down and having fun, AT gear has to be the only real way to go I reckon.
In reply to Sammo:
Had another think, ...really if you want to keep to AT as you have no need to learn tele, & X-country although very good for the prepared trails where you are (just get a trail set up very cheap)...what you need to do is "improve" your current AT set-up.
If you have a frame binding get rid & get a good TLT binding as these have a better "free pivot" & your toe is better positioned in the pivot like a x-country binding. Then get a set of AT boots with a bellows like in a Tele boot. Scarpa did it in the older F1 & F3 boots. This will give you more flex & better "walking" & better for K&G also.....
Hang on just double checked can't find any new AT boots with bellows...so how about get a set of NTN boots with the full TLT binding compatibility, & use them on the TLT bindings ??
Had another think, ...really if you want to keep to AT as you have no need to learn tele, & X-country although very good for the prepared trails where you are (just get a trail set up very cheap)...what you need to do is "improve" your current AT set-up.
If you have a frame binding get rid & get a good TLT binding as these have a better "free pivot" & your toe is better positioned in the pivot like a x-country binding. Then get a set of AT boots with a bellows like in a Tele boot. Scarpa did it in the older F1 & F3 boots. This will give you more flex & better "walking" & better for K&G also.....
Hang on just double checked can't find any new AT boots with bellows...so how about get a set of NTN boots with the full TLT binding compatibility, & use them on the TLT bindings ??
In reply to TobyA:
Grivels fit nicely on my Scarpa NTNs - and I think the heels can be locked down if training heels needed (and the right bindings).
I haven't had a chance to ski in them yet though
B
Grivels fit nicely on my Scarpa NTNs - and I think the heels can be locked down if training heels needed (and the right bindings).
I haven't had a chance to ski in them yet though
B
Post edited at 00:02
In reply to Sammo: a lot of people get by with the NNNbinding on say a Fisher 109. Mrs WBO uses effectively that and rarely takes out her AT kit. Use the BC binding on a 99, with a bog standard Alfa Kikut boot, and can get petzl lybx to stay on pretty well, so the crosscountry boots/crampons thing is not a problem.
A friend has the Silvretta binding on a Madshus back country and likes it , but it seems to be an acquired taste
A friend has the Silvretta binding on a Madshus back country and likes it , but it seems to be an acquired taste
In reply to Sammo:
Just as a side thought;-
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/fischersbound125crownskin-p-373310.html
There are wide X-country skis with a lesser camber which are designed for steeper descents. As it suggests a trad 3 pin or soft cable (for better K&G) & the Scarpa T4 would give you a "x-country" type K&G with a better control over the descent. You could try a narrower version of the ski & mount the NNN-BC & get the stiffest matching boot which might do.
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/crispisvartisenbcnordictouringboot-p-79...
However descent control is better with 75mm duckbill than NNN-BC..
Just as a side thought;-
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/fischersbound125crownskin-p-373310.html
There are wide X-country skis with a lesser camber which are designed for steeper descents. As it suggests a trad 3 pin or soft cable (for better K&G) & the Scarpa T4 would give you a "x-country" type K&G with a better control over the descent. You could try a narrower version of the ski & mount the NNN-BC & get the stiffest matching boot which might do.
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/crispisvartisenbcnordictouringboot-p-79...
However descent control is better with 75mm duckbill than NNN-BC..
In reply to Sammo:
Just been looking at another forum I watch, I suggest to the OP you post your original question here:-
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=1
I suggest you read this topic here:-
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1006
Basically the newer XC ski (fischer s-bound 98,112,125) will turn better & are wide so can cope better than the "older" style of XC skis I ski. The NNN-BC binding is still better for K&G but (as I have noticed) you have to drive the ski around with the foot flatter. With a 75mm binding & even a low T4 plastic boot you drive via the cuff which is similar to AT.
So a set of Fischer e109 crown base skis, a simple 75mm binding & T4 boots?
https://www.fischersports.com/en_en/e109-crown-xtralite-5733
Just been looking at another forum I watch, I suggest to the OP you post your original question here:-
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=1
I suggest you read this topic here:-
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1006
Basically the newer XC ski (fischer s-bound 98,112,125) will turn better & are wide so can cope better than the "older" style of XC skis I ski. The NNN-BC binding is still better for K&G but (as I have noticed) you have to drive the ski around with the foot flatter. With a 75mm binding & even a low T4 plastic boot you drive via the cuff which is similar to AT.
So a set of Fischer e109 crown base skis, a simple 75mm binding & T4 boots?
https://www.fischersports.com/en_en/e109-crown-xtralite-5733
In reply to all:
Again, thanks very much for all the helpful replies - there's a lot of great information here.
I popped down to my local outdoor shop yesterday to have a look at some of the options first hand. I came away thinking that Fischer 109s and 75 mm boots & bindings looked like a good option, so it's nice to see the same setup being suggested here by folks with more experience. It's also good to know about the Petzl crampon adapter for 75 mm boots.
I've enjoyed reading the Telemark Talk forum too. The video at the start of the thread linked above by Snowdave shows some very impressive and fun-looking skiing on NNN-BC kit - something to aspire to!
With a bit of luck I'll have the opportunity to play on a hired 75 mm setup later next week. I suspect I'm in for a shock on the downhills, but I'm really looking forward to it!
Again, thanks very much for all the helpful replies - there's a lot of great information here.
I popped down to my local outdoor shop yesterday to have a look at some of the options first hand. I came away thinking that Fischer 109s and 75 mm boots & bindings looked like a good option, so it's nice to see the same setup being suggested here by folks with more experience. It's also good to know about the Petzl crampon adapter for 75 mm boots.
I've enjoyed reading the Telemark Talk forum too. The video at the start of the thread linked above by Snowdave shows some very impressive and fun-looking skiing on NNN-BC kit - something to aspire to!
With a bit of luck I'll have the opportunity to play on a hired 75 mm setup later next week. I suspect I'm in for a shock on the downhills, but I'm really looking forward to it!
In reply to Sammo:
It's a huge topic & one that loads of people are discussing as the AT gear gets lighter but fails on the K&G, tele gets heavy like AT, but not quite what most people are after unless tele nuts (I like tele turns at the end of a day down a nice red run), X-country as most people know it won't cope...however the older 75mm system & suitable new x-country skis will do it, so the gear is out there (just) & it is evolving it fill these new void in the market.
NNN-BC will cope, but you have to get the appropriate ski, & really to execute a good turn on steep requires a lot of skill & using the binding (not the boot) & not what you want when tired!! & that video is very good, he has excellent technique!
The Fischer S-bounds look ok but could trap you in their skin system, so the widest non-skin but with a "waxless" crown base by Fischer is what I'd go for. Bindings? Huge choice of 75mm. You really need for front flex, so as a plastic T4 boot (optimal choice) how about a basic none cable? Best for K&G, yet will still beat the pants of a NNN-BC set-up.
Telemark bindings eg cables
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/all/c-telemarkbindings/f/?page=1
Nordic
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/all/c-nordictouringbindings/f/
TBO they list some of the same cable & non cable in both categories!
Or how about a set with the removable cables, so you can get more heel drive for the descent.
TBO I have done a recent tour to Tolmount at Glenshee from the ski area car park. so 12 miles total & a nice red run descent at the end of the day down the Glas Maol ski run. Now on my set up which is heavy duty (7tm power tour, Ski Trab Freeride, ScarpaT2 boots, BD nylon skins) it coped no problem. However I feel it is too heavy & cumbersome for the plateau K&G, I did K&G it with technique, but my NNN-BC set up would be better, but a no go on the red run descent!
I got my kit 6yrs ago & the newer Fischer skis, T4 boots, & a set of simpler bindings would do me better for that type of tour. Crown base is better for the undulating plateau, boots have less cuff, so both better for K&G, but still stiff enough for red run with a bit of care.
Got me thinking now bugger!!
P.S. Petzl tele toe bail for their crampons,
https://www.elitemountainsupplies.co.uk/product/447_petzl-telemark-toe-bail...
It's a huge topic & one that loads of people are discussing as the AT gear gets lighter but fails on the K&G, tele gets heavy like AT, but not quite what most people are after unless tele nuts (I like tele turns at the end of a day down a nice red run), X-country as most people know it won't cope...however the older 75mm system & suitable new x-country skis will do it, so the gear is out there (just) & it is evolving it fill these new void in the market.
NNN-BC will cope, but you have to get the appropriate ski, & really to execute a good turn on steep requires a lot of skill & using the binding (not the boot) & not what you want when tired!! & that video is very good, he has excellent technique!
The Fischer S-bounds look ok but could trap you in their skin system, so the widest non-skin but with a "waxless" crown base by Fischer is what I'd go for. Bindings? Huge choice of 75mm. You really need for front flex, so as a plastic T4 boot (optimal choice) how about a basic none cable? Best for K&G, yet will still beat the pants of a NNN-BC set-up.
Telemark bindings eg cables
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/all/c-telemarkbindings/f/?page=1
Nordic
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/all/c-nordictouringbindings/f/
TBO they list some of the same cable & non cable in both categories!
Or how about a set with the removable cables, so you can get more heel drive for the descent.
TBO I have done a recent tour to Tolmount at Glenshee from the ski area car park. so 12 miles total & a nice red run descent at the end of the day down the Glas Maol ski run. Now on my set up which is heavy duty (7tm power tour, Ski Trab Freeride, ScarpaT2 boots, BD nylon skins) it coped no problem. However I feel it is too heavy & cumbersome for the plateau K&G, I did K&G it with technique, but my NNN-BC set up would be better, but a no go on the red run descent!
I got my kit 6yrs ago & the newer Fischer skis, T4 boots, & a set of simpler bindings would do me better for that type of tour. Crown base is better for the undulating plateau, boots have less cuff, so both better for K&G, but still stiff enough for red run with a bit of care.
Got me thinking now bugger!!
P.S. Petzl tele toe bail for their crampons,
https://www.elitemountainsupplies.co.uk/product/447_petzl-telemark-toe-bail...
check out these:
http://www.needlesports.com/4449/products/stc-snowventure-skis---with-bindi...
they are short skis only about 1 meter long so good for mountaineering. they have 3 settings - uphill, downhill and up and down.
also you can get an add on to use them with softboots:
http://www.bergfuchs.at/stc-snowventure-softboot-kit.html
got a pair recently, and they seem great, haven't tried them in deep powder yet though..
Post edited at 09:03
In reply to Sammo:
Just been doing more research as looking for myself, see your fault!!!
Those Fischer E109 skis "can" have problems with the bindings not getting into full wood due to the air core. The S-bound series, the older ones are ok apparently , but the new 2015/2016 season have the slot s in the middle of the ski for their skin system (waste of time IMO).
Or how about Madshus epoc/eon/annum, a bit heavier, but solid skis with no "air core" & still with "crown track" base. Annum is 2.6kg pair for a 109/78/95 sidecut which is not far off my 117/84/105 ski trab Freeride tele skis!
Just been doing more research as looking for myself, see your fault!!!
Those Fischer E109 skis "can" have problems with the bindings not getting into full wood due to the air core. The S-bound series, the older ones are ok apparently , but the new 2015/2016 season have the slot s in the middle of the ski for their skin system (waste of time IMO).
Or how about Madshus epoc/eon/annum, a bit heavier, but solid skis with no "air core" & still with "crown track" base. Annum is 2.6kg pair for a 109/78/95 sidecut which is not far off my 117/84/105 ski trab Freeride tele skis!
In reply to Snowdave:
Haha, sorry Snowdave, I didn't mean to drag you in too! As a Norwegian colleague said to me yesterday, "You just need more skis."
Thanks for the warning about the Fischers - I'll have a look at Madshus alternatives. Åsnes seem to be popular here too, although I'm not sure what I think about having Nansen's face regarding me disapprovingly from my ski tips as I learn to telemark:
http://www.asnes.com/produkt/nansen/
Haha, sorry Snowdave, I didn't mean to drag you in too! As a Norwegian colleague said to me yesterday, "You just need more skis."
Thanks for the warning about the Fischers - I'll have a look at Madshus alternatives. Åsnes seem to be popular here too, although I'm not sure what I think about having Nansen's face regarding me disapprovingly from my ski tips as I learn to telemark:
http://www.asnes.com/produkt/nansen/
In reply to Sammo:
If you had pennies, for boots it might be worth waiting for the new Arcteryx Procline boots. Then its just to fit some lightweight dynafit bindings onto some skinny skis. Voilà a perfect ski and technical climbing setup.
I think for most NNN-bc boots they are far too flexible to be ideal with crampons. The NNN binding requires a lot of flex in the toe box to be comfortable as bodyweight is required to press the skis into the snow for the uphill. There are expedition boots available but I cant comment on the stiffness. I guess it depends how technical you plan to climb, or modify some crampons with a flex bar.
The NN duckbilled boots actually take crampons surprisingly well. Even those with a wire bail and heel clip can fit on leather NN boots. A few of my friends who wanted to give ice climbing a try rocked up with these and crampons fit ok good enough for a day, but were very far forward. I think any crampon used with NN boots would be best suited with a petzl telemark front bail.
If you had pennies, for boots it might be worth waiting for the new Arcteryx Procline boots. Then its just to fit some lightweight dynafit bindings onto some skinny skis. Voilà a perfect ski and technical climbing setup.
I think for most NNN-bc boots they are far too flexible to be ideal with crampons. The NNN binding requires a lot of flex in the toe box to be comfortable as bodyweight is required to press the skis into the snow for the uphill. There are expedition boots available but I cant comment on the stiffness. I guess it depends how technical you plan to climb, or modify some crampons with a flex bar.
The NN duckbilled boots actually take crampons surprisingly well. Even those with a wire bail and heel clip can fit on leather NN boots. A few of my friends who wanted to give ice climbing a try rocked up with these and crampons fit ok good enough for a day, but were very far forward. I think any crampon used with NN boots would be best suited with a petzl telemark front bail.
In reply to Sammo:
& if the shop mount the bindings wrong (75mm type) then it would look even worse!!! (seen that happen!)
I put a clear car type protect film on my skis top cover, maybe a coloured one for those? (designers...arrgghh )
> Åsnes seem to be popular here too, although I'm not sure what I think about having Nansen's face regarding me disapprovingly from my ski tips as I learn to telemark:
& if the shop mount the bindings wrong (75mm type) then it would look even worse!!! (seen that happen!)
I put a clear car type protect film on my skis top cover, maybe a coloured one for those? (designers...arrgghh )
In reply to Sammo:
Just some more info:-
Those ski trails you talk of? are they pisted tram lines? If so measure them as usually they are 70mm wide tracks, this will limit your ski under foot wide choice. (if you want to ski them that is)
Re Fischer air core, is it strong, others are using this tech, just more epoxy in the binding holes if you hit "air" with a screw.
Some of the top end NNN-BC are stiffer in flex than the 75mm direct versions so might be ok if sticking to a narrow track ski width.
Scarpa T-4 gets heat mouldable intuition liners for 2016/2017 season...
Just some more info:-
Those ski trails you talk of? are they pisted tram lines? If so measure them as usually they are 70mm wide tracks, this will limit your ski under foot wide choice. (if you want to ski them that is)
Re Fischer air core, is it strong, others are using this tech, just more epoxy in the binding holes if you hit "air" with a screw.
Some of the top end NNN-BC are stiffer in flex than the 75mm direct versions so might be ok if sticking to a narrow track ski width.
Scarpa T-4 gets heat mouldable intuition liners for 2016/2017 season...
In reply to Sammo:
http://www.telemarkskier.com/breaking-down-meidjo-v2-0/
"There are a small but significant number of telemarkers who want the option to occasionally lock the heel, without switching rigs. Meidjo offers that ability with an optional low-tech heel. For starters, this heel doesn’t rotate to switch between tour and downhill mode. Instead, the spring steel tangs extend into the heel insert of the boot, or retract. When extended and engaged, the heel does not operate independently of the 2nd heel connection, but in combination with it. Therefore, it has a very low release value on its own, effectively increasing the existing lateral release value of the Meidjo by only one."
b
http://www.telemarkskier.com/breaking-down-meidjo-v2-0/
"There are a small but significant number of telemarkers who want the option to occasionally lock the heel, without switching rigs. Meidjo offers that ability with an optional low-tech heel. For starters, this heel doesn’t rotate to switch between tour and downhill mode. Instead, the spring steel tangs extend into the heel insert of the boot, or retract. When extended and engaged, the heel does not operate independently of the 2nd heel connection, but in combination with it. Therefore, it has a very low release value on its own, effectively increasing the existing lateral release value of the Meidjo by only one."
b
In reply to ben b:
Unfortunately this has two big problems which have only just come to light in the past weeks. One is a major part failure (not unlike NTN bindings)
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1082&sid=c346f7b8c6...
The other fly in the ointment is that Scarpa & Scott have just announced they will no longer make NTN tele boots with the TLT binding heel pieces...
http://www.earnyourturns.com/33505/scarpa-scott-drop-heel-inserts-on-ntn-bo...
Bugger!!
Unfortunately this has two big problems which have only just come to light in the past weeks. One is a major part failure (not unlike NTN bindings)
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1082&sid=c346f7b8c6...
The other fly in the ointment is that Scarpa & Scott have just announced they will no longer make NTN tele boots with the TLT binding heel pieces...
http://www.earnyourturns.com/33505/scarpa-scott-drop-heel-inserts-on-ntn-bo...
Bugger!!
1
In reply to Snowdave:
You're right - that's pretty disappointing.
Glad my Scarpa's still do though
b
You're right - that's pretty disappointing.
Glad my Scarpa's still do though
b
1
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