UKC

Ever fallen into a cravesse?

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 The Ice Doctor 26 Mar 2016
Just interested how many people actually have? Especially UKCers. Do you know anyone who has?

I'm interested to know some statistics for the incidence of 'falling into a cravesse'

Posting this because I am sick of hearing from people "how dangerous cravesses are". Yes I know, but so are drugs, cancer, other car drivers, piste skiers , I could produce an endless list.

Mountains are dangerous places, but so are cities, airports, crossing the sea....

Personally , I feel anxieties are over fuelled regarding this subject matter.
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 Trangia 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Yes. I have on two occasions
Post edited at 18:44
1
 Pedro50 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

No I have never fallen into a cravesse.
1
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes but only on the Gouter route though, it was reasonably controlled and I grinned broadly after being dragged out by friends. I bought an extra round that evening to say thanks!
 Dave the Rave 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Nope. But I had a right bollocking from a guide for too much slack in the line.
 nicjbuk 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

No fortunately , but had a bit of a moment trying to bring a partner up the cornice on tower gully yesterday. Rope got caught and prevented him from traversing out. I was pondering crevasse rescue procedure and started excavating second axe belay to escape the system when I spied 2 young lads walking off the summit. Good lads made their way carefully to the edge and freed up the rope and told me what the problem was. They then took selfies and headed off. The wind made it impossible to communicate with my partners in the gully exit. It made me realise I need to practice crevasse procedures before the Alps this summer.
No help to your question but similar techniques would be required at cornice exits.
 TobyA 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Up to my armpits, fortunately a good partner and snug rope stopped me going further. The feet in bottomless space feeling is not one I'm keen to repeat.
 L.A. 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Yes, whilst soloing near the Chardonet Similar to Toby , up to armpits and bottomless space yawning below - Dont try it unless you have to, you might not get as lucky! The two people who eventually pulled me out both died the following year in crevasse falls.
Also a little one on Lenin but that was easily held.
- Too many pies ?
Post edited at 19:11
 Denzil 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor: just the once - up to my waist, held partly by my rucksack. Was most of the way up Mera Peak. Backed of soon after when the snow, thunder and lightening started.

 Wsdconst 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Bear grylls did once, but unfortunatly he got out.
7
 Chris Sansum 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, twice on the way down from Mont Blanc. Fell in to about waist level. Partner didn't realise I was in a crevasse, and thought I had just fallen 'into a hole', so didn't do anything until I told him I was in a crevasse! We tried a different way and I fell in again to waist level. In the end we decided to climb back up onto the ridge and rejoin the Gouter route and descend that way. Glad he didn't have to pull me out as we were relatively inexperienced at the time!
 buzby 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

had a snow bridge collapse into one after I crossed and the guy who I was roped to fell in on the way up to the Dufourspitze. after a week of slagging me about my weight he was mighty glad to be roped to a 15 stone Scotsman.
he did mention that he thought I had weakened it though.
 john arran 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, up to my armpits on the Mer de Glace. Hopped out again and all was well.
 planetmarshall 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> Just interested how many people actually have? Especially UKCers. Do you know anyone who has?
> I'm interested to know some statistics for the incidence of 'falling into a cravesse'

I have a feeling your statistics may suffer from a selection bias...
 Cheese Monkey 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

If one leg to the hip counts then yes. Didn't fancy much more than that
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

No, but then i've been lucky, with trips to glaciated terrain in most of the worlds greater ranges, plenty of dodgy snow bridges, but then i'm not complacent either, usually roping up, unless it's a place where there is a good well trodden track and percieved low risk, such as the Argentiere basin or the valley blanche, this is no guarantee of safety though, it is taking a big risk, there is a big crevasse famous for catching out a fair few below the midi, a friend has also fallen into a crevasse up their unroped, he got totally wedged and couldn't move, luckily it wasn't that deep and someone came along fairly quickly and pulled him out, he would have frozen to death.

There are a large number of cutting edge climbers who have succeded on major routes, to then die in a crevasse on the descent, the odds are not good.
In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
What are the odds? And what if you are on skis? Lower risk?

NB this is not scientific!
Post edited at 19:33
 Tom Last 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yep, also up to armpits, but roped up. 1st time in Alps, very slow, walking to the Konkordiahutte in mid afternoon. Hardly surprising really.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Try carrying a long spruce pole, this is seemingly quite effective!
In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

Pray, where does this long spruce pole come from, or do you take it all the way up and down the mountain with you, plus your ice axe and other gear?
7
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Woosh!!
 John2 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes
 Andes 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Three and a half times in something like 500 alpine/andean/glacier climbing and skiing days.... so my odds are roughly 1:100. About half these days were on skis, with no falls. I'd say you are more likely to go in when on foot, partly because of the bridging effect of your skis, but probably mainly due to seasonal differences.

Seems like a pretty low risk, but only one crevasse fall needs to be fatal for your climbing career to end suddenly, and there is a pretty high likelihood that an unroped crevasse fall will be fatal. On two consecutive skiing trips to the Alps we met parties who lost someone (i.e. killed), by a crevasse fall whilst skiing un-roped. One of these parties was guided. I'd say that skiing unroped is more dangerous than walking roped-up.

Of my three proper falls two were on potentially risky crevasse crossings, one of these while paying attention, one while I was daydreaming at the back. The third fall was on a smooth, flat, snow-covered glacier with absolutely no sign of crevasses, nor any warning. I was roped up for all three falls and never went more than 2 metres.
Post edited at 20:27
 Jasonic 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, a couple of times both times partner held me & was on flat blank snow..roping up works!
 Mr. Lee 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Also a few times. No big deal with the right rope length and tension and was out in a matter of seconds. Some crevasses are just impossible to see.
 blackcat 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor: I kind of share your opinon,though im well aware of how dangerous they are and have a huge healthy respect for them,yet solo mountaineers are constantly crossing them to climb some big mountains safely.Theres a few easy routes id like to solo, but its the crevesses that scare the s@ite out of me
 SteveD 26 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Nope but had a real horror story related to me by a guide a few years back about trying to extricate someone who had dropped 8-10m into a crevasse, smashing his pelvis on the way. The guy was kind of extruded below the narrowing. The team could see him and he was alive but had no way to get to him without a jack hammer. I think they got his body out a few days later.

Mountaineering, especially alpinism is about risk management, I won't risk it personally as it's like russian roulette IMO. I might ski it for some of the reasons stated above but not on foot unless its a dry glacier.

Your mileage may vary.

1
 timjones 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> Personally , I feel anxieties are over fuelled regarding this subject matter.

I've fallen into 2, the wife has fallen into 1. None were serious but if we'd been unroped or our footsteps had fallen in a slightly different place they very easily could have been.

Go prepared and there are no "anxieties" but the risks are real so please don't discount them!

 Rip van Winkle 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor: Yes, twice. Once, inexperienced and with a mate (he didn't fall in) - my rucksack stuck and stopped me going right in. Once roped to a guide who held the fall. Both times I was able to clamber out with the help of my axe, though the first time I needed a second axe which I borrowed from a passing rope of Swiss. And both times - just carry on as if nothing had happened

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yep, three times in two days in the Russian Caucasus. The first one up to the armpits just after stepping off the moraine we'd been having breakfast on and back onto the glacier. The second one about the same depth when a snow bridge collapsed but we could see that might happen so had a tight rope and belay. The third time was the following day descending a glacier to high camp in the early afternoon. That last time I bobbed in completely under! It's all sorts of fun being the 80kg guy on a rope with two 60kg partners!
 Andes 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Re-reading some of the replies, it is pretty clear a lot of us would not be here if we didn't normally rope up on a glacier.
 galpinos 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I'm not really sure what you're after learning, and your question is obviously going to give a biased answer.

The simple fact is falling into a crevasse unroped can be fatal. Roping up is a relatively easy thing to do and can massively reduce the risk so it is considered best practice. What more is there to know apart from that*?

*Obviously you need to be able to get the stranded partner out.....
2
 buffalo606 27 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:

Q: I'm not really sure what you're after learning

A: it is pretty clear a lot of us would not be here if we didn't normally rope up on a glacier

 aostaman 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I don't think you'll get many replies from the dead.

 mnf_nelson 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Only 'fallen' into a crevasse on two occasions. Both to simulate crevasse rescue.

Safe to say that I wouldn't like to do it for real, especially with the partner I was with at the time as he couldn't hold my weight in a controlled fall and relied on the backup to keep him safe.
 wercat 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I fell in up to my armpits alone after soloing the Wildespitze on the advice of confident Germans who described the glacier as dry and easy - they hadn't told me that they had been with a guide so it seemed very easy. I think I used up one of my 9 lives as I could just have quietly and unseen disappeared from history and human knowledge. Don't dwell on it too much, unhealthy. I had left the obvious tracks to see the view. Luckily I'd been descending the Icy side facing away from Vent and had 2 axes out so reacted quickly.

Also have a friend who fell into one near the Concordia hut. He managed to pick the one spot that had an obstruction before a bottomless drop and lived to tell the tale.
Post edited at 10:55
 Gav Parker 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes on 3 occasions...rope and rucksack helped me...
 goatee 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yep once..up to my elbows with legs dangling in air. On the Tour Glacier whilst soloing Aiguille de Tour. Very very scary. The remainder of the way until I reached the safety of rock above the hut couldn't have been over soon enough.
 jonesieboy 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Only broken through on one leg up to hips a couple of times. Partner went in up to rucksack last summer. I always rope up on wet glaciers. Even when I'm in a big group and no one else bothers, I insist on being roped to my partner. Better safe...
 Dell 27 Mar 2016

By the sound of things they are very dangerous, you'd think the council would go round filling them in.
 walts4 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Grand total of 5 times, 3 whilst roped up & once in the infamous crevasse at the bottom of the Midi arête, I can confirm its of monstrous proportions, luckily I stopped at my hips!
The other occasion was the scariest & occurred whilst I removed a single ski on the VB to attach my skins to get back up to the Midi. I put my weight onto the foot without the ski & promptly exposed a massive yawning crevasse, didn't dare put the ski back on & just hopped to the side breathing very heavily & being thankful that I didn't remove both skis!

I'll let you decide if crevasse danger is overrated, personally I have a healthy respect as they are impossible to spot on occasion & do claim lots of victims regardless of experience or mountain knowledge.
 Trangia 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

My scariest crevasse fall was in the Austrian Alps when I was relatively inexperienced in Alpine conditions. 3 of us were crossing a glacier with me at the front, when I suddenly broke through and found myself suspended in a black gaping hole. It was like dangling from the roof of Salisbury cathedral. Looking up I could see daylight through the body sized hole I had broken through about 5ft above me. Below me was a black abyss. But the really scary thing is that I could see the outline of the second on the rope silhouetted through the thin roof of snow and my heart sank as I realised he was also over the crevasse. I was terrified he would break through too and our combined weight would drag the third man in as well.

Communication was very difficult as the snow muffled our shouts, but the third man, still not over the crevasse, managed to set up a bomber belay and the second man managed to transfer my weight onto the rope to the third man using a prussic loop, then go back off the crevasse. Then I managed to prussic back up. However getting over the lip was incredibly difficult as the rope had cut a deep groove. Fortunately I hadn't dropped my axe. To this day, I have no idea how or why I managed it, but somehow through a combination of prussicking, hacking with my axe and sheer terror I managed to surmount the lip and haul myself out.

If I had not had prussic loops and retained my axe I would not have made it.

Thinking about it still makes me shudder, and I have a huge respect for snow covered glaciers. They are very dangerous places.
 Adam_Turner 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Personally I've never fallen into a crevasse, have always travelled roped in a group too. However my first experience of crossing glaciated terrain was in the Swiss Alps, and I remember in the early hours staring down in to the deep, dark abyss below which utterly terrified me!
During our descent a couple decided to un-rope above us and one of them decided to turn back and let the other continue. It wasn't long until the lady was seen to slip and fall into a crevasse with fatal consequences.

I've always been a bit of an adrenaline/danger junkie but I personally don't think it's worth the risk of travelling solo over terrain which is crevassed.
 kenr 27 Mar 2016

Interesting that there's little discussion in the narratives on this thread or the longer articles linked from it about the _conditions_ of the weather and snowpack history when the fall occurred.

Yet surely the probabilities of punching through into a hidden crevasse are widely different in different seasons, different months+weeks of the same season, different single days, even different hours of the same day. So likely you can achieve much better management of risk consequences by addressing those _prevention_ factors, than by special techniques and equipment _after_ the fact, or by looking at general statistics that ignore critical risk contribution factors.

Compare with Avalanche risk - (at least as practiced by skiers) - much more study of prevention factors.

I do solo on crevassed glaciers, but only on certain seasons, specific days, specific hours. When conditions are not favorable, I just know lots of other ways to have fun, or other kinds of climbing challenges.

Ken
Post edited at 17:40
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 rocksol 27 Mar 2016
In reply to Wsdconst:

He probably staged it the tosser
 Bob Aitken 27 Mar 2016
In reply to Trangia:

> Thinking about it still makes me shudder, and I have a huge respect for snow covered glaciers. They are very dangerous places.

Snap.

Very many years ago I dropped nose-deep into an unsuspected big slot covered in drifting fresh snow above the Konkordiaplatz, while third on the rope and faithfully following in my ropemates’ footprints. All the then usual techniques didn’t work in practice because I was effectively jammed in the neck of a bottle with legs waving in an appalling blue void while arms, axe, Prusiks, etc. were trapped in compacted wet snow. Traction from in front merely jammed me further into the dense mush of the lip and threatened to asphyxiate me - no harness in those days. Our very experienced leader (to whom I remain eternally grateful) had to re-cross the crevasse extremely carefully to insert a foot-loop from behind me to provide an upwards pull while the second man held me.

Once de-corked it took me about 15 minutes in stranded-whale mode to recover. It’s taken the rest of my life not to forget the special terror of the void beneath, my futile struggles and my rapidly ebbing strength. Have been very crevasse-cautious ever since: careful in considering risk factors in the way that Ken advocates, and sceptical of glib guidebook assertions about routes that present no crevasse risk.
 jon 27 Mar 2016
In reply to Bob Aitken:

> Have been very crevasse-cautious ever since: careful in considering risk factors in the way that Ken advocates, and sceptical of glib guidebook assertions about routes that present no crevasse risk.

You're absolutely right. Personally I think that anyone who says 'I feel anxieties are over fuelled regarding this subject matter...' is either stupid or taking the piss.

 MG 27 Mar 2016
In reply to jon:
> You're absolutely right. Personally I think that anyone who says 'I feel anxieties are over fuelled regarding this subject matter...' is either stupid or taking the piss.

Possibly but a breakdown of fatalities from crevasses, stonefall, falling etc for alpine climbing would be interesting to see. I think there is something viscerally repulsive about the idea of dying in a crevasse that perhaps does mean the risk is perceived as higher than it is, compared to other objective dangers.

(And in answer to the OP, I am not actually sure! There was no support up to thigh depth... I didn't look back.)
Post edited at 18:54
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, up to armpits, stopped by the rope and my arms. Not an experience I would choose to repeat.
cb294 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

No idea what a cravesse is, but then again you are the Ice Doctor... Sounds like some fancy french biscuit if I would have to guess.

As for crevasses, punching through with the legs doesn't even count, as it pretty much can't be avoided when breaking trail through fresh snow. Also, it is no big problem if you are roped up and your team knows their drills (especially keeping the ropes tight through turns).

I agree that under these conditions weather and avalanches pose the bigger danger, but soloing glaciers if there is any snow cover is extremely risky.

Even on a dry glacier, I once fell in to my hips when the lip of a crevasse broke, even though another climber had just stood in the same spot. We were just trying to reach some rocks on the middle moraine to drop our stuff while roping up, which was not particularly clever.

CB
NickDil 27 Mar 2016
Not experienced at all with Alps. One time I did spent a week there and the dropped through up to my waist to a crevasse in Arolla.
Was held by the rope but still to this day I remember how dark it looked down there. If the rest of the bridge broke through I have no faith the my team would get me out.

And to cap it all the guide gave me a bollocking even though I was on the path and it was not my fault that I was 2nd and 30kgr heavier.

 Rob Exile Ward 27 Mar 2016
In reply to MG:

I seem to recall that one of the arguments against closing the hospital in Chamonix was that doctors there were particularly experienced at the uniquely hideous crushing injuries that resulted from long falls into crevasses.
 airborne 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, in Norway. Cramponed up my own leg in bid to escape. Still have the scar.
In reply to jon:

Does that make people like Uli Steck, or anyone who solos in the mountains stupid? Do you think he (Steck) goes into the mountain environment full of anxiety? If he did he wouldn't leave his house now would he?
13
 d_b 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Lost a leg into one once. I got it back though, so that's ok.
 Tim Sparrow 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Dropped into many small slots, never gone in deep thankfully. However, do remember failing to hop over a small double slot on the Grand Mulets descent, feet into the first, head and shoulders in the second. Just my rear left pointing toward the sky. Partner unable to help due to laughing, which attracted the attentions of the assembled throng on the balcony of the hut on the rocks above. Emerged sheepishly after much writhing and thrashing and no help whatsoever from my hapless ropemate. Those at the hut toasted and jeered my self extraction! At least I lightened someone's day.
 george mc 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> Does that make people like Uli Steck, or anyone who solos in the mountains stupid? Do you think he (Steck) goes into the mountain environment full of anxiety? If he did he wouldn't leave his house now would he?

http://soloalliance.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/solo-glacier-crossingrisk-reduct...

Last post on this thread and I call Troll.
 jon 27 Mar 2016
In reply to george mc:

That makes sense.
 Jim Cooper 27 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes. Fell into the Bergshrund at the foot of the Walker spur taking my ropemate with me (1969). We ended up stuck fast in the collapsed snow/ice that had compressed into solid ice. I had only one arm free and Dave, stuck fast, was still holding an ice axe. Fortunately I could reach the axe and then chop me and then him free and we climbed out (10- 15 feet). We were un-injured, probably bruised and scratched, but very, very, cold and a bit shaken. We then had to retreat off the route from above the Rebuffat Crack in very heavy rain. At the time the retreat in heavy rain, soaked through, via multiple abseils seemed much more serious. But on reflection we were extremely lucky - the Bergshrund fall (collapsed snow-bridge) was by far the most dangerous.

On multiple other occasions put foot and even leg through into crevasse.

In my opinion crevasse fall is a very serious risk, even if not common, as the consequences can be so great.

Although I have never had to assist in a crevasse rescue (apart from self rescue above) I imagine this can prove very difficult unless there is much manpower available to pull! The real application of the crevasse rescue techniques in the manuals being more problematic than may be appreciated, especially if the casualty cannot assist.

1stly do not fall in - this requires a bit of experience and a little knowledge.
2ndly whenever possible cross glaciers with fresh snow in as large parties as possible in the circumstances. Do not be shy from accompanying strangers for mutual safety.
3rdly rope up and send the first person a long way ahead so that he is less likely to pull the 2nd in.
 Misha 27 Mar 2016
In reply to Trangia:

> Yes. I have on two occasions

That's a brilliant first response to the OP.

To the OP: that's not a good attitude to have. It's a real risk and it makes sense to take precautions - rope up (unless on skis and even then sometimes), travel early, avoid suspicious areas, seek guidance on where the risky areas are. To use your analogy, yes, driving is inherently risky but we all do it. However we all do our best to avoid accidents - stop at red lights etc. More people die in car accidents but that's because there are millions of people on the road every day.

I haven't fallen into any myself but on one occasion last year my partner and I turned back from going for a wander across an untracked Vallee Blanche covered in drag snow due to suspicious audible cracks in the snowpack.
 Babika 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

No.

Partner fell up to thighs while we bumbled unroped up the side of the summer piste on the Breithorn while skiers whizzed past. I think that's what lulled us into a false sense of security.
 NottsRich 28 Mar 2016
In reply to walts4:

> Grand total of 5 times, 3 whilst roped up & once in the infamous crevasse at the bottom of the Midi arête, I can confirm its of monstrous proportions, luckily I stopped at my hips!

Where abouts is the crevasse you mention? I've only been in winter so may not have seen it - would like to know where it is.

Wasn't this one was it?

https://www.facebook.com/andypmountainguide/photos/a.1024670174223250.10737...
 walts4 28 Mar 2016
In reply to NottsRich:
> Wasn't this one was it?

No, not guilty..
It runs parallel to the arete in its lower reaches just below where everybody puts their skis on in winter.
So you can cross it unknowingly when starting the plan traverse.
I fell in unroped Heading back up the arete late December!
Post edited at 08:33
 NottsRich 28 Mar 2016
In reply to walts4:

Thanks. Is it roughly where lots of people are standing in the lower left corner of this image?

http://www.powderbeds.com/uploads/The-Arete---Chamonix---Vall.jpg
Rigid Raider 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I have a special horror of this having read a couple of distressing accounts of crevasse falls, one involving a French child on a school trip down the Valleé Blanche. On our first ever Alpine trp my brother and I were walking up the Aletsch Glacier in fog and suddenly realised that the long strips of slushy snow we were crossing blithely, unroped, and with no crevasse experience were in fact crevasses filled with melting snow

Stooging around on touring skis on the pisted glacier high on the Brévent I suddenly found myself on water ice unable to edge and going over an unmarked ice cliff; my instinct was to keep my legs together as I crashed onto my hip and slid over the edge, thumping down onto compacted snow at the bottom of a wide, choked up crevasse. As I landed I remember thinking "Blimey, the skis didn't snap!" and "Phil is right behind me!". Unfortunately my skiing buddy had followed me so I threw myself to one side and a second later he crashed down in exactly the same spot, landing on his front and dislocating one shoulder, which quickly re-located itself to the sound of much cursing.

I've done a bit of crevasses rescue stuff at Glemore Lodge and was surprised to see how easy it is to pull somebody out with the right equipment under perfect conditions but I don't imagine it's often that easy in real life.
 jon 28 Mar 2016
In reply to Rigid Raider:

Did you really mean the Brevent?
 walts4 28 Mar 2016
In reply to NottsRich:

Its on the VB side of the arête (not the Cham side) of the top most group of people at the bottom of the arête & runs parallel to the arête back towards the midi station.
Some years you see it, some year's its well hidden..

But the other crevasse that is always present is obvious in the photo, or appears to be as the dark spot that is directly above where the two roped paths join low on the arête.
 Mr. Lee 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> Does that make people like Uli Steck, or anyone who solos in the mountains stupid? Do you think he (Steck) goes into the mountain environment full of anxiety? If he did he wouldn't leave his house now would he?

Maybe read-up about Steve House's close call on the Nant Blanc Glacier when he fell into a crevasse. Happens to the best.
 Bob Aitken 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> Does that make people like Uli Steck, or anyone who solos in the mountains stupid? Do you think he (Steck) goes into the mountain environment full of anxiety? If he did he wouldn't leave his house now would he?

That seems to me an ill-considered post at best, suggesting you haven’t read or digested the responses to your OP. As other posters have said, prudent risk assessment isn’t synonymous with anxiety. Uli Steck and other cutting-edge climbers are well qualified by extraordinary ability and vast experience to judge the full range of risks they’re taking on in their solo ventures. But - as with avalanche risk - crevasse risk can be very difficult to assess, and - as with avalanche risk - it’s not hard to identify sad cases where very experienced climbers or guides going solo or unroped have come to grief in a crevasse, even on glaciers they knew well. Louis Lachenal (in the Vallee Blanche) and Ottone Bron (on the Nantillons) are two that come immediately to mind.

Complacency and crevasses make a dangerous combination.
In reply to Bob Aitken:
I read all the responses, thanks.

Perhaps it all boils down to levels of luck. It doesn't matter how much assessment, judgement you have.

Some people are lucky, others are not, and people die in the mountain environment (not necessarily by falling into a cravesse and freezing to death) all the time, no matter their skill level or experience.

Its worth noting that a group of people is more likely to trigger an avalanche than simply one person on the same terrain.

I refer to anxiety, as when discussing this issue this week a few people have expressed anxiety about said situations on glaciers and their level of fear. I would suggest to them not to go out and put themselves in such situations they feel that way. If they are that anxious, I'm not sure I would want to be with them in the mountains.

BTW, I spend a lot of time in the mountains, and use my experience to judge risk levels, despite what you think. I always take a safe line. I wonder how many mountain days above 3000m all you posters have spent this last year. I have spent in total many weeks 'out' this last year. Perhaps I have some perspective on this issue, despite what you may think, and despite what I have written on here.
Post edited at 17:01
9
craigloon 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

"Some people are lucky, others are not"

Absurd statement.

"Its worth noting that a group of people is more likely to trigger an avalanche than simply one person on the same terrain."

Plain wrong. The fact that you've survived thus far is plainly down to chance rather than judgement.

2
 Misha 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I agree there is usually no need for anxiety, unless it's a particularly hairy situation. But a healthy respect for the mountains and an appreciation of the risks is required. Yes, accidents do happen to the experienced but generally it is those who are less experienced that will get into trouble. I wouldn't call myself massively experienced in the Alps, more than some, a lot less than others. I certainly appreciate the risks and am always keen to learn how to avoid or mitigate them. That's a healthy attitude to have, I think.
In reply to craigloon:

The crevasse I fell into was clearly visible (2003), I just judged the step across wrong. Really no difference than any other slip and slide event, other than we all knew the risk and placed protection against the risk.
 d508934 28 Mar 2016
In reply to Jim Cooper:
Interesting points. But not sure about leaving first person further ahead on the rope; sometimes it's the second or third person that can break through and fall in. Wouldn't be good if numbers 2, 3 and 4 on the rope were all fairly close and the middle of them goes in.

Any posters on here got tips for practicing crevasse rescue in the UK? I've always thought it would be time well spent when going to the Alps with a first timer, just can't work out how to set it up.
graham F 28 Mar 2016
In reply to d508934:

You can practice the hauling system on flat ground/on a staircase/off a bridge/balcony/etc, and a steep grass bank is a good substitute for holding a crevasse fall and much safer than training on a "real" glacier". A grass bank with a tree at the top (for the anchor) would work well.
graham F 28 Mar 2016
In reply to craigloon:

> Absurd statement.
This is an absurd statement!

> "Its worth noting that a group of people is more likely to trigger an avalanche than simply one person on the same terrain."

> Plain wrong. The fact that you've survived thus far is plainly down to chance rather than judgement.

Plain right in fact. Plenty of evidence that a group of people may trigger a slope that a single person wouldn't have triggered.

1
In reply to craigloon:

What is so absurd about this statement, it's true!
 johannes 28 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Haven't fallen myself, but held our tour guide when he fell into one on the way up Il Chapütschin. We were roped up, and the snow created a lot of friction so it was quite easy to hold the fall. The person behind me didn't even feel the pull and wondered why I had stopped walking and gone down on all fours.
Rigid Raider 29 Mar 2016
In reply to jon:

No, I meant the Grands Montets.
 Andes 29 Mar 2016
In reply to d508934:

In the UK its best to find a small cornice/steep snow feature in a safe place... the bottom of any hummocky corrie in Scotland should have plenty features you could use - I've used the lost valley in Glencoe before, also bits of the valley above the abandoned car-park on Cairngorm. You certainly need to practice with real snow, and preferably at least something of a lip for the rope to cut into.
 David Rose 29 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Once on the Aig Talefre, when stopped by a rope. Again on the "path" between the Cosmiques hut and the descent towards the Tacul N face - totally invisible slot, no rope, saved only by whacking axe into the rim as I slipped in. Terrifying.
 Howard J 29 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:


> Perhaps it all boils down to levels of luck. It doesn't matter how much assessment, judgement you have.... BTW, I spend a lot of time in the mountains, and use my experience to judge risk levels, despite what you think. I always take a safe line.

Aren't these two statements contradictory?

I'm not sure what your point is. If you are saying that people shouldn't be put off mountaineering because of the risk of falling into a crevasse, I'd agree. Nevertheless, it is a real and serious risk, which needs to be taken seriously. People who are rely on being lucky will sooner or later find it running out. Experience, judgement and correct equipment give you a greater chance of avoiding a fall, and of surviving if you do
 Chris_Mellor 29 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Yes, on Petit Aiguille Vert at berschrund. Not far down and climbed out. Horrible shock.
Chris.
 jcw 29 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
The answer tomyour question is yes. Deep deep down, plus some other experiences which make me very much respect the danger. I originally did not reply because I thought this was another example of UKC immaturity like the person who thought doing Mont Blanc was of the same scale as the Snowdon Horseshoe. However I see from your profile that you have some real experience of mountaineering and that w hat you ask, if somewhat bizarrely is a genuine question. My reply is the same as Howard J.
abseil 29 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

> ...I'm interested to know some statistics for the incidence of 'falling into a cravesse'... Posting this because I am sick of hearing from people "how dangerous cravesses are"... Personally , I feel anxieties are over fuelled regarding this subject matter.

Here is a statistic: loads of climbers have died falling into crevasses.

Glaciers are dangerous places. Glaciers, and crevasses, deserve a lot of care and respect.

Wishing you safe climbing.
craigloon 30 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
There's no such thing as "luck". If you're referring to the "chance" of suffering a mishap, then that can be mitigated through sound judgement and practice. Of course there is still a chance you might Come a cropper, but it won't be as high as it would have been without those measures.
1
craigloon 30 Mar 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Here you go, here's some stats for you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25082349/
 Tony the Blade 30 Mar 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> Up to my armpits, fortunately a good partner and snug rope stopped me going further. The feet in bottomless space feeling is not one I'm keen to repeat.

I had exactly the same happen to me on the Miage Glacier.

My partner quickly dropped onto his axe to prevent a greater drop, once he realised I was safe he tied the rope off and proceeded to take photos... it's a good job voices can't be heard on a photo! That said, I now look at the picture with fondness.
 Simon4 31 Mar 2016
In reply to Tony the Blade:
> it's a good job voices can't be heard on a photo!

I was contouring back round a slope after climbing Sticil Face, when I heard a cry from behind and looked back to see my partner apparently sitting down, very hunched up. I went back and found that only his shoulders and sack were above the snow, he then announced that he had fallen into a crevasse.

"Don't be silly Neil, there are no crevasses in Scotland".

He did not appear to appreciate this lesson in geomorphology, or be in the mood for theoretical discourses about conditions in different mountain ranges, and said "my ***** legs are kicking in space", then made a few other observations indicating that his patience was running thin.

I got him out using that well known crevasse rescue technique, grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and pulling very hard. Didn't take a picture to record the foul language, but mostly because it was getting pretty dark.
Post edited at 20:03
 pneame 31 Mar 2016
In reply to Simon4:

Foul language? Shocking. People do over-react sometimes.
 Simon4 01 Apr 2016
In reply to pneame:

> Foul language? Shocking.

Even worse, he was of the Scottish persuasion, Aberdonian in fact.

But Scots do get a bit touchy sometimes, when you fail to buy them a drink, when they fall in crevasses, when you suggest that deep fried marsbars are not ideal food. I once climbed what we were sure was a new route on Liaathach, with a Scotsman who was very proud of his Scottish heritage, but not greatly blessed by success that day, especially on the first pitch. After I had got up it, he suggested that I might like to finish.

Some weeks later, he phoned me up to discuss a name for the route. I said that as we were in Scotland, it should show some recognition of that, and of the countries great achievements. There was enthusiastic agreement from the other end of the line. Particularly Scottish engineering achievements. Even more enthusiasm. And should reflect the atmosphere of the first ascent. "Great" he shouted (in a thick Aberdonian accent) "what do you want to call it then?"

"How about 'The Flying Scotsman'?"

There was a long, intense, silence, made more striking by the contrast with the previous (and very rare for an Aberdonian), enthusiasm. Some weeks later still, he phoned me up again "that route was done 3 years ago, it is called 'The Fairy Queen'".

I am still not sure I entirely believe him.

 tistimetogo 01 Apr 2016
In reply to Tony the Blade:

Plenty of similar experiences of disappearing legs and occasionally up to my oxters. Never had a full on plummet though.
 pneame 01 Apr 2016
 Simon4 02 Apr 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

It is very sobering to get all these accounts, the conclusion is clearly "yes, crevasses are every bit as dangerous (and insidious), as their reputation suggests".

I recall not very long ago, a video of someone skiing in the Bernese Oberland, down a slope where lots of other skiers had been, suddenly dropping into a hidden crevasse with no warning, despite having skis to spread the load. Very useful reminder of the risks in ski-touring, that we can get quite casual about.
jedicolin 02 Apr 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Nope and I hope I never will!
 Simon4 02 Apr 2016
In reply to pneame:
> A bit off topic (in that the crevasse was of rock and 150 ft up) - a glaswegian once tried to brain me with a rock

This particular proud Scot was finally forced to make a shameful confession.

Being from a service family, they moved around quite a bit, so that he was actually born in the same place as me - Lincoln General Hospital. Now the only towering thing about Lincoln is the Gothic cathedral, other than that it is as flat as the great plains for 10s or 100s of miles, scarcely a suitable birth place for a professional Scotsman and noble highlander. Ever after I found that out, I took great pleasure in referring to "us Lincoln lads", for preference in the most crowed, public place possible.

> My piece de resistance was destruction of the last snowbridge (with me on it). below the Ryan-Lochmatter on the Aig Du Plan.

I remember that snowbridge on the Ryan Lochmatter, it was pretty delicate when I climbed it. In fact, being the smallest member of the party, my 2 larger companions were speculating on the viability of Dwarf tossing as a method of crossing it. I forestalled this by tettering across it very nervously before it managed to collapse, unlike the 3 Germans who followed us.
Post edited at 19:46
 jon 02 Apr 2016
In reply to Simon4:

> I forestalled this by tettering across it very nervously before it managed to collapse, unlike the 3 Germans who followed us.

Ah, the spirit that made Britain Great!

In reply to all:
All I will say now is......

1) I have never fallen into a cravesse

2) I have climbed into and out of cravesses, deliberately

3) I'd better not tell you I've done over the last 4 months, I know UKC appears to be judge and jury. .....

4) My fear level and overall level of risk assessment may not fall into the 'norm'. Perhaps ? dunno ?.....

However, if you have ever watched the film Citadel, and should I perhaps compare my judgement at key moments to those of the guides in that documentary, when venturing out in dangerous conditions, I'd say my judgement is very sound....

No more to add on this one.

Thanks folks .
Post edited at 17:38
5
Removed User 03 Apr 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Incredible stories!! Learned a lot, thanks!
steady63 10 Apr 2016
In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I broke through a snow bridge and went up to my arm pits with my legs dangling! Managed to push myself out whilst my mate was taking the strain on the rope! Happened much slower than I ever imagined

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