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After another scrambling death this week, on the 'Grade 1' Tryfan North Ridge, Should grade 1 scrambles be further subdivided? At the opposite end of the scale there are 8a,8b,8c,8a+,8b+,8c+ grades, while hill walkers are lured to precipitous crags by the broad Grade 1 Scramble grading.
Post edited at 12:24
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In reply to dangle:
No, the grade doesn't need to be divided. The defining criterion of a Grade 1 scramble is that it is easily escapable and all difficulties can be avoided.
There is absolutely nothing precipitious on the North ridge of Tryfan that can not be safely avoided.
No, the grade doesn't need to be divided. The defining criterion of a Grade 1 scramble is that it is easily escapable and all difficulties can be avoided.
There is absolutely nothing precipitious on the North ridge of Tryfan that can not be safely avoided.
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In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
But it's relative, VDiff is only VDiff from a walker's perspective, not to a climber.
But it's relative, VDiff is only VDiff from a walker's perspective, not to a climber.
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In reply to dangle:
One of the good things about Tryfan's north ridge is that bar the bit at the top, you can choose your own way from a good many options, some of which may well not be a grade one scramble. The knack of finding the best way for you on any given day with the prevailing weather, how you're feeling and so on comes down to what used to be called 'mountain sense', which in its turn comes from experience.
So yes, Tryfan's north ridge contains bits that aren't grade one scrambles. I'd be against doing anything to subdivide the grade though.
And I wasn't aware that there'd been a fatality. There but for the grace of god... Commiserations to those who held whomever it was dear.
T.
One of the good things about Tryfan's north ridge is that bar the bit at the top, you can choose your own way from a good many options, some of which may well not be a grade one scramble. The knack of finding the best way for you on any given day with the prevailing weather, how you're feeling and so on comes down to what used to be called 'mountain sense', which in its turn comes from experience.
So yes, Tryfan's north ridge contains bits that aren't grade one scrambles. I'd be against doing anything to subdivide the grade though.
And I wasn't aware that there'd been a fatality. There but for the grace of god... Commiserations to those who held whomever it was dear.
T.
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In reply to dangle:
I don't think so. We are talking very different games here. Your examples are not on the same scale IMO. Grade 1 scrambling is about choosing an interesting route up some steepish walking terrain, usually from a number of options. It may involve easy climbing moves above a safe landing, but it may also involve very easy scrambling above precipitous drops where falling off entails a risk of death. It's much more about judging your own ability than the actual difficulty.
8+ sport climbing is about following someone else's route, delineated by bolts, which may or may not be interesting but will certainly be fiendishly hard. It almost certainly will involve falling off but usually not hurting oneself.
Is the 8b+ grade "narrower" than Grade 1? I'm not qualified to say, but I'm not sure it's relevant.
Martin
> After another scrambling death this week, on the 'Grade 1' Tryfan North Ridge, Should grade 1 scrambles be further subdivided? At the opposite end of the scale there are 8a,8b,8c,8a+,8b+,8c+ grades, while hill walkers are lured to precipitous crags by the broad Grade 1 Scramble grading.
I don't think so. We are talking very different games here. Your examples are not on the same scale IMO. Grade 1 scrambling is about choosing an interesting route up some steepish walking terrain, usually from a number of options. It may involve easy climbing moves above a safe landing, but it may also involve very easy scrambling above precipitous drops where falling off entails a risk of death. It's much more about judging your own ability than the actual difficulty.
8+ sport climbing is about following someone else's route, delineated by bolts, which may or may not be interesting but will certainly be fiendishly hard. It almost certainly will involve falling off but usually not hurting oneself.
Is the 8b+ grade "narrower" than Grade 1? I'm not qualified to say, but I'm not sure it's relevant.
Martin
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In reply to dangle:
Tryfan's North Ridge is a textbook Grade 1. While some routes have historically been sandbags (such as Main Gully on Glyder Fach), I don't think there is any need to subdivide scrambling grades any further. Difficulty on scrambles is incredibly subjective – more so, in my opinion, than on proper rock climbs.
P.S. I have no wish to make light of the fact that someone else has died on Tryfan, but people die on walking outings too. There is no direct correlation between difficulty and number of fatalities.
Tryfan's North Ridge is a textbook Grade 1. While some routes have historically been sandbags (such as Main Gully on Glyder Fach), I don't think there is any need to subdivide scrambling grades any further. Difficulty on scrambles is incredibly subjective – more so, in my opinion, than on proper rock climbs.
P.S. I have no wish to make light of the fact that someone else has died on Tryfan, but people die on walking outings too. There is no direct correlation between difficulty and number of fatalities.
Post edited at 13:01
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In reply to dangle:
The thing with scrambling is that there is rarely just one line and the factors that affect the difficulty are hugely varied between mountains, lines, days and people. An argument for more subdivisions would probably head rapidly towards being an argument for more dimensions (i.e. grades for each aspect: physicality, technicality, exposure, consequences of fall, escapabilty...) and I can't see this being massively helpful ("Dear, the book says Tryfan is a 1,3,Ex,4b,Z-,Fromage Dificile. Do you remember what grade Striding Edge was?"). The multifaceted nature of scrambling means it's often difficult to pick between the 3 (or 4 or 5) grades we already have. Certainly I've done things described as 3 that seemed the same as things described as 1.
As discussed many times, Tryfan is rightly popular and very accessible. I've voiced support for some basic information/warning signs in the car parks to let people know they should expect to need to use their hands and if that seems intimidating, maybe just go part way or round the back instead. I think some immediate information of this kind would be more useful than grades which the majority(?) of visitors may never have heard of.
The thing with scrambling is that there is rarely just one line and the factors that affect the difficulty are hugely varied between mountains, lines, days and people. An argument for more subdivisions would probably head rapidly towards being an argument for more dimensions (i.e. grades for each aspect: physicality, technicality, exposure, consequences of fall, escapabilty...) and I can't see this being massively helpful ("Dear, the book says Tryfan is a 1,3,Ex,4b,Z-,Fromage Dificile. Do you remember what grade Striding Edge was?"). The multifaceted nature of scrambling means it's often difficult to pick between the 3 (or 4 or 5) grades we already have. Certainly I've done things described as 3 that seemed the same as things described as 1.
As discussed many times, Tryfan is rightly popular and very accessible. I've voiced support for some basic information/warning signs in the car parks to let people know they should expect to need to use their hands and if that seems intimidating, maybe just go part way or round the back instead. I think some immediate information of this kind would be more useful than grades which the majority(?) of visitors may never have heard of.
Post edited at 15:38
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In reply to dangle:
It wasn't a 'scrambling' death, it was an individual who sadly died when descending the mountain, apparently unable to identify their intended route of descent. Grading is irrelevant.
Please do not use such emotive language as 'lured' when linking it to a story about someone's death.
It wasn't a 'scrambling' death, it was an individual who sadly died when descending the mountain, apparently unable to identify their intended route of descent. Grading is irrelevant.
Please do not use such emotive language as 'lured' when linking it to a story about someone's death.
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In reply to dangle:
There are some very difficult and potentially dangerous options on Tryfan's North Ridge. The difficulty is working out where to go. I've scrambled up it dozens of times, and probably never repeated exactly the same route. There are countless options. I've been on bits, which are feel like V Diff even Severe, and I've had to go to the aid of folk who have inadvertently wandered onto these sections rather than taking an easier option. Yes overall it's a nice solid Gade 1 so long as you you don't wander onto difficult and sometimes exposed sections which can be avoided..
There are some very difficult and potentially dangerous options on Tryfan's North Ridge. The difficulty is working out where to go. I've scrambled up it dozens of times, and probably never repeated exactly the same route. There are countless options. I've been on bits, which are feel like V Diff even Severe, and I've had to go to the aid of folk who have inadvertently wandered onto these sections rather than taking an easier option. Yes overall it's a nice solid Gade 1 so long as you you don't wander onto difficult and sometimes exposed sections which can be avoided..
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In reply to dangle:
It's tragic that someone has lost their life on the route but categorising it grade 0.7 instead of grade 1 would have made no difference to the outcome.
It's tragic that someone has lost their life on the route but categorising it grade 0.7 instead of grade 1 would have made no difference to the outcome.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Tryfan is a mountain, not a route. Someone sadly died on the mountain, not THE route.
Tryfan is a mountain, not a route. Someone sadly died on the mountain, not THE route.
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In reply to dangle:
I was on Tryfan North Ridge last Friday. Had a been up it several times before, but being on my own this time, and with perfect weather (so with no one else/adverse weather to worry about), I had time to reflect on a few things.
Firstly, the route-finding isn't necessarily straightforward for the inexperienced - I encountered a number of groups asking whether 'this was the right way'. Typically, they'd have come across a move which they'd decided was too hard (even though it was probably on the right line), and had contoured round in search of something simpler, but ended up trying something harder. The advice I've seen in some guidebooks is 'stick to the crest' but to be fair, it's not always clear where the true crest is, and indeed, the crest doesn't always have the easiest moves.
Secondly, there are options on there which are much harder than Grade 1 - I was searching these out, perhaps, but just because they're avoidable doesn't mean people don't end up on them.
Later on the walk, on Bristly Ridge by now, there are a few sections (such as the downclimb into the notch) where, if you've got to them, you've got little choice but to carry on.
I think given all this, the description of Tryfan as Grade 1 needs to be caveated. I think it leads to overconfidence - thinking 'this is only G1 - I should be safe' - where in fact the person may have wandered onto far more serious ground.
I was on Tryfan North Ridge last Friday. Had a been up it several times before, but being on my own this time, and with perfect weather (so with no one else/adverse weather to worry about), I had time to reflect on a few things.
Firstly, the route-finding isn't necessarily straightforward for the inexperienced - I encountered a number of groups asking whether 'this was the right way'. Typically, they'd have come across a move which they'd decided was too hard (even though it was probably on the right line), and had contoured round in search of something simpler, but ended up trying something harder. The advice I've seen in some guidebooks is 'stick to the crest' but to be fair, it's not always clear where the true crest is, and indeed, the crest doesn't always have the easiest moves.
Secondly, there are options on there which are much harder than Grade 1 - I was searching these out, perhaps, but just because they're avoidable doesn't mean people don't end up on them.
Later on the walk, on Bristly Ridge by now, there are a few sections (such as the downclimb into the notch) where, if you've got to them, you've got little choice but to carry on.
I think given all this, the description of Tryfan as Grade 1 needs to be caveated. I think it leads to overconfidence - thinking 'this is only G1 - I should be safe' - where in fact the person may have wandered onto far more serious ground.
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In reply to HTPumlumon:
No caveat is necessary for Tryfan's North Ridge. It's quite amply covered by the 'WARNING! SCRAMBLING CAN BE DANGEROUS!' notice in the front of the guidebook.
No caveat is necessary for Tryfan's North Ridge. It's quite amply covered by the 'WARNING! SCRAMBLING CAN BE DANGEROUS!' notice in the front of the guidebook.
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In reply to HTPumlumon:
Which classic / benchmark grade 1 scrambles are "safe", though?
If people are thinking that - and the fact that people are getting into trouble there doesn't necessarily mean that that's the case - then I think it'd be a lot more helpful to try to encourage people to remember that scrambling in general - even at Grade 1 - can still be potentially serious than to start messing around with grades and individual caveats.
> I think given all this, the description of Tryfan as Grade 1 needs to be caveated. I think it leads to overconfidence - thinking 'this is only G1 - I should be safe' - where in fact the person may have wandered onto far more serious ground.
Which classic / benchmark grade 1 scrambles are "safe", though?
If people are thinking that - and the fact that people are getting into trouble there doesn't necessarily mean that that's the case - then I think it'd be a lot more helpful to try to encourage people to remember that scrambling in general - even at Grade 1 - can still be potentially serious than to start messing around with grades and individual caveats.
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In reply to dangle:
Any mountain terrain, whether a graded scramble or not, can be dangerous and it is a very sad event for this individual and their family.
The grade of a scramble is given for the easiest way to traverse it. On Tryfan North Ridge people can find themselves on much more difficult terrain if the easiest route is not followed. This does not mean the grade is wrong, it means that route-finding is part of the skill-set needed and that the ability and/or willingness to reverse a section climbed in error is required.
Any mountain terrain, whether a graded scramble or not, can be dangerous and it is a very sad event for this individual and their family.
The grade of a scramble is given for the easiest way to traverse it. On Tryfan North Ridge people can find themselves on much more difficult terrain if the easiest route is not followed. This does not mean the grade is wrong, it means that route-finding is part of the skill-set needed and that the ability and/or willingness to reverse a section climbed in error is required.
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In reply to dangle:
Hi Dangle, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one. The majority of deaths on Tryfan ( that I have read about ) seem to happen while people are descending the mountain rather than scrambling up the North ridge.
For someone unfamiliar with the mountain it's easy to miss the western gully (as grough.co.uk suggests happened in this case), or end up on serious ground while trying to walk down north gully (which starts as a gentle grassy path but ends in a sheer drop).
From memory people descending the North ridge have also come off Milestone Buttress. I don't believe increasing the North ridge grade would prevent any of these deaths. The suggestion of a car park warning (a la Crib Goch warning on the Pyg track) might help..
Hi Dangle, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one. The majority of deaths on Tryfan ( that I have read about ) seem to happen while people are descending the mountain rather than scrambling up the North ridge.
For someone unfamiliar with the mountain it's easy to miss the western gully (as grough.co.uk suggests happened in this case), or end up on serious ground while trying to walk down north gully (which starts as a gentle grassy path but ends in a sheer drop).
From memory people descending the North ridge have also come off Milestone Buttress. I don't believe increasing the North ridge grade would prevent any of these deaths. The suggestion of a car park warning (a la Crib Goch warning on the Pyg track) might help..
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In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
Where did you get that definition?
I prefer to go by this:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/understanding-scrambling-grades
There are certainly grade 1 scrambles out there with cruxes where there are no easier ways up (without avoiding the route completely)
Isn't tryfan North Ridge an example in point here? If you did the route you must have done a crux technically worthy of a grade 1 scramble IMO.
Main Gully mentioned above is the same, however it should be grade 3 I think.
> No, the grade doesn't need to be divided. The defining criterion of a Grade 1 scramble is that it is easily escapable and all difficulties can be avoided.
> There is absolutely nothing precipitious on the North ridge of Tryfan that can not be safely avoided.
Where did you get that definition?
I prefer to go by this:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/understanding-scrambling-grades
There are certainly grade 1 scrambles out there with cruxes where there are no easier ways up (without avoiding the route completely)
Isn't tryfan North Ridge an example in point here? If you did the route you must have done a crux technically worthy of a grade 1 scramble IMO.
Main Gully mentioned above is the same, however it should be grade 3 I think.
Post edited at 13:42
In reply to dangle:
I think the problem with the scrambling grades is they are applied far less consistently than climbing grades and vary much more UK wide. Scottish grade 3 is more like welsh grade 2.
Main Gully mentioned above is a super sandbag and has a move that I'd be happy to make the climb a Mod or a Diff (very bad fall potential and really awkward getting over the chockstone), shouldn't really be grade 1 IMO, but it is.
I think the problem with the scrambling grades is they are applied far less consistently than climbing grades and vary much more UK wide. Scottish grade 3 is more like welsh grade 2.
Main Gully mentioned above is a super sandbag and has a move that I'd be happy to make the climb a Mod or a Diff (very bad fall potential and really awkward getting over the chockstone), shouldn't really be grade 1 IMO, but it is.
Post edited at 13:43
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The problem is that scrambling grades are so subjective. For example I completely agree re Main Gully chockstone move not being Grade 1 but that scramble is no way near Grade 3. The Grade 2 upgrade is accurate imo..
The problem is that scrambling grades are so subjective. For example I completely agree re Main Gully chockstone move not being Grade 1 but that scramble is no way near Grade 3. The Grade 2 upgrade is accurate imo..
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In reply to maxsmith:
I think its about the same difficulty as the crux of a mod / diff with a terrible fall out zone, to me that's grade 3. Still however you look at its likely high in the grade 2 or above. I did it un-roped in big boots as it was getting dark at the end of the day, which may have made it feel different. However for me grade 2 is nearly always unroped. Grade 3 I would only attempt with rock shoes and / or a rope (in my bag they may not get used), also I'm hesitant doing them on my own especially in anything but good conditions unless I plan to lead them.
I personally think scrambles should be graded for un-roped ascents, with the proviso that it could be sensible to use one.
I don't really think scambling grades should be any more subjective than low climbing grades myself.
I think its about the same difficulty as the crux of a mod / diff with a terrible fall out zone, to me that's grade 3. Still however you look at its likely high in the grade 2 or above. I did it un-roped in big boots as it was getting dark at the end of the day, which may have made it feel different. However for me grade 2 is nearly always unroped. Grade 3 I would only attempt with rock shoes and / or a rope (in my bag they may not get used), also I'm hesitant doing them on my own especially in anything but good conditions unless I plan to lead them.
I personally think scrambles should be graded for un-roped ascents, with the proviso that it could be sensible to use one.
I don't really think scambling grades should be any more subjective than low climbing grades myself.
Post edited at 14:08
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In reply to HTPumlumon:
If that's the case then you're going to have to do the same with every scramble out there. The North Ridge is not only a Grade 1 scramble but it is also low in the grade compared with many other Grade 1's. To give a few examples, Bristly Ridge and Main Gully are technically harder, Jack's Rake and Sharp Edge are more committing, the Eastern Terrace on Clogwyn and North Ridge approach to Crib Goch are much more exposed.
As far people wandering off onto far more serious ground, well that happens in hills and mountains all the time and has got nothing to do with scramble grades. People do it all the time even when attempting the most benign of Wainwright's walks.
> I think given all this, the description of Tryfan as Grade 1 needs to be caveated. I think it leads to overconfidence - thinking 'this is only G1 - I should be safe' - where in fact the person may have wandered onto far more serious ground.
If that's the case then you're going to have to do the same with every scramble out there. The North Ridge is not only a Grade 1 scramble but it is also low in the grade compared with many other Grade 1's. To give a few examples, Bristly Ridge and Main Gully are technically harder, Jack's Rake and Sharp Edge are more committing, the Eastern Terrace on Clogwyn and North Ridge approach to Crib Goch are much more exposed.
As far people wandering off onto far more serious ground, well that happens in hills and mountains all the time and has got nothing to do with scramble grades. People do it all the time even when attempting the most benign of Wainwright's walks.
Post edited at 14:17
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In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
You seem to have missed the point HTPumlumon was making. He wasn't arguing to increase the grade, just to mention in the guide that it's grade 1 by the easiest line and many harder (and in some cases much harder) variations exist so careful route finding is essential. I personally think its a fair point especially considering how popular it is.
Many other scrambles the route finding is obvious and there are only easier (obvious) variations (ie its only really the given grade if you follow the proper line of the route)
You seem to have missed the point HTPumlumon was making. He wasn't arguing to increase the grade, just to mention in the guide that it's grade 1 by the easiest line and many harder (and in some cases much harder) variations exist so careful route finding is essential. I personally think its a fair point especially considering how popular it is.
Many other scrambles the route finding is obvious and there are only easier (obvious) variations (ie its only really the given grade if you follow the proper line of the route)
Post edited at 15:23
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
The same applies to any number of Grade 1 scrambles. I'm sure walkers who feel they are getting out of their depth will naturally follow the easiest line anyway. I can't imagine them seeking out difficulties.
Many easier variations exist too. You can pretty much avoid everything on the route. I've seen many people do it that way.
The popularity of the scramble surely makes route finding easier. All you have to do is follow the crowds and/or polish.
> You seem to have missed the point HTPumlumon was making. He wasn't arguing to increase the grade, just to mention in the guide that it's grade 1 by the easiest line
The same applies to any number of Grade 1 scrambles. I'm sure walkers who feel they are getting out of their depth will naturally follow the easiest line anyway. I can't imagine them seeking out difficulties.
> many harder (and in some cases much harder) variations exist
Many easier variations exist too. You can pretty much avoid everything on the route. I've seen many people do it that way.
> careful route finding is essential. I personally think its a fair point especially considering how popular it is.
The popularity of the scramble surely makes route finding easier. All you have to do is follow the crowds and/or polish.
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In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
Lower down yes but I'm talking about the top section. Shown here:
http://jonesnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/top-of-Tryfan.jpg
I think the easiest way up that is grade 1, so therefore you the minimum scrambling grade requirements for a party to attempt the route are grade 1. Some scrambles I've done there seems to be an easy lower path around every single proper bit of scrambling.
> Many easier variations exist too. You can pretty much avoid everything on the route. I've seen many people do it that
Lower down yes but I'm talking about the top section. Shown here:
http://jonesnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/top-of-Tryfan.jpg
I think the easiest way up that is grade 1, so therefore you the minimum scrambling grade requirements for a party to attempt the route are grade 1. Some scrambles I've done there seems to be an easy lower path around every single proper bit of scrambling.
In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
But we're not talking about picking the hard way over some well defined obstacle rather than the easy way around it. We're talking about straying off route entirely and ending up reasonably well committed to harder ground than you bargained for. I can't think of many Grade 1 scrambles where this could easily happen - you're unlikely to end up wandering up Gwynne's Chimney from Jack's Rake, or anywhere much from Crib Goch - but I can confirm from personal experience that it can happen on Tryfan North Ridge - I think I strayed too far right early on while not paying attention and ended up on noticeably harder stuff.
On the other hand, I've not seen any evidence that this causes undue numbers of people to get into difficulty, that those people who get into difficulty had read a route description, and that they wouldn't have got off route if the route description had been more vocal about the importance of careful routefinding.
> The same applies to any number of Grade 1 scrambles. I'm sure walkers who feel they are getting out of their depth will naturally follow the easiest line anyway. I can't imagine them seeking out difficulties.
But we're not talking about picking the hard way over some well defined obstacle rather than the easy way around it. We're talking about straying off route entirely and ending up reasonably well committed to harder ground than you bargained for. I can't think of many Grade 1 scrambles where this could easily happen - you're unlikely to end up wandering up Gwynne's Chimney from Jack's Rake, or anywhere much from Crib Goch - but I can confirm from personal experience that it can happen on Tryfan North Ridge - I think I strayed too far right early on while not paying attention and ended up on noticeably harder stuff.
On the other hand, I've not seen any evidence that this causes undue numbers of people to get into difficulty, that those people who get into difficulty had read a route description, and that they wouldn't have got off route if the route description had been more vocal about the importance of careful routefinding.
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
I think that's fair also (regarding would it make any difference and does it matter).
As a side point I've deliberately gone up much harder variations before. however the first time somehow I ended up doing something about grade 2 near the top. To be fair I was probably seeking out the most interesting looking line rather than the easiest.
I think that's fair also (regarding would it make any difference and does it matter).
As a side point I've deliberately gone up much harder variations before. however the first time somehow I ended up doing something about grade 2 near the top. To be fair I was probably seeking out the most interesting looking line rather than the easiest.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I don't need to look at any pictures, my friend. I have done the upper section of that scramble no end of times, usually as a continuation after routes on Milestone Buttress and continuation or Wrinkled Tower or climbs/scrambles up from the East Face/Heather Terrace side.
> Lower down yes but I'm talking about the top section. Shown here:
I don't need to look at any pictures, my friend. I have done the upper section of that scramble no end of times, usually as a continuation after routes on Milestone Buttress and continuation or Wrinkled Tower or climbs/scrambles up from the East Face/Heather Terrace side.
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In reply to dangle:
Its already done!!! grade I, grade II, grade III
A scramble is a scramble. Not a rock climb!! Rock climbs have simple adjectival grades, Moderate, Diff, V Diff, and so on.
Something which is not worthy of any more grading and to split it further is just splitting hairs.
Its already done!!! grade I, grade II, grade III
A scramble is a scramble. Not a rock climb!! Rock climbs have simple adjectival grades, Moderate, Diff, V Diff, and so on.
Something which is not worthy of any more grading and to split it further is just splitting hairs.
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