UKC

Petition to allow the open carrying of weapons at the presidential convention is gathering support - Trump is considering giving it his backing.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/28/republican-convention-gun-pe...

Clearly the delegates need guns for self defence, and guns aren't dangerous, so what could possibly go wrong?

It's either a brilliant piece of satire or the ultimate triumph of ideology over common sense

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Have you seen students in Kansas can now carry guns in classrooms?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

> It's either a brilliant piece of satire or the ultimate triumph of ideology over common sense

Or an attempt to put bleach in the shallow end of the gene pool.

If it goes through, one can only hope a firecracker is set off during the debates.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Sounds sensible. Put their money, or bullets, where their mouths are.
The guns in classrooms is disturbing but I cant really see many republican convention attendees being anti carry and if they are perhaps they might want to reconsider who they vote for.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

This is the actual petition: -

https://www.change.org/p/quicken-loans-arena-allow-open-carry-of-firearms-a...

Bonkers!

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Darwin at work.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Hopefully if this gets allowed, someone will shoot either Trump, Cruz or Rubio (or all three is my hope)

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Sounds just like the dumb attitude of a Trump supporter... ordinary folk wishing people dead and other equally stupid stuff, coming out of probably justified frustration with how life is going but resulting in unfair scapegoating ... is exactly what is going wrong over there.

In reply to Offwidth:

Some of the real reasons he is popular.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-ameri...

Trump is feeding on the misery of blue collar america. Their jobs and income are insecure, they couldn't afford health insurance and now feel insulted by being in the new health safety net. Their schools are shit so the prospects for their kids look worse than for them. Corporate america and mainstream politicians look like parasites.

A similar story plays out time and time again in recent history and people blame the symptoms rather than the cause when nasty demagogues get to lead a country as a result.

In reply to Offwidth:

The thing is its really not that bad. The schools are pretty good.

They vary by area a lot but some of the schooling far exceeds that in the UK in my experience.

Many complain and if you ask them they don't know why. They complain about Obamacare yet then still take it as it's so much cheaper.

They complain about illegals and still employ undocumented Mexicans to clean their pool for $10 rather than pay the insured, tax playing legal worker $20 an hour.

There is a real hatred about what Trump is doing. Sanders is probably creating more of a revolution yet is getting little press, but he's not inciting hatred and riots.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Where are you based though Iain? The prosperous coast or middle America, where industry IS declining?

In reply to galpinos:


Just outside the most crime ridden poorest city in America.

The US is very divided.

we have millionaires living 3-4 miles from tent cities. I'm in south Jersey, so its a very mixed area.

Things were bad, the economy has bounced. Jobs are returning, the car manufacturers are back doing OK.

Areas like Detroit are like the ship building areas of the UK. There was simply no way they could keep employing that number of people as industries modernized. It's like Sheffield produces more Steel now than it ever did, but employs a fraction of the work force.

In reply to Roadrunner5:


Fair dos. It's always hard to get an idea of what's happening "on the ground". Is Sanders as popular with the working "blue collar" workers as his is with the more affluent left wing?


Just an aside and not really relevant but this is by value, not quantity.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
The school system sits near the bottom of developed nations international league tables and those from blue collar backgrounds struggle to meet the performance levels that they should in college. The whole country has a massive skills gap, resolved by importing highly skilled labour from across the world into well paid jobs. This is all going on in the richest nation in the world. Anyone who sees that sort of education system as a success is a bit odd. Of course there are highlights and most eductors are dedicated professionals doing their best but the average good is seemingly much less than that in other countries.

No one is saying that Trump is a good thing but ignoring the real reasons beyond racism is not helping and the articles like the one I linked are too few and far between. Blue collar america is still really hurting. Railing at the hate just feeds it more.

Sanders' success is the natural consequence of younger intelligent idealistic americans in the face of the blatant unfairness in their nation. Sadly, the last time the Democrats had a selected candidate anything like this, Nixon got elected.

In reply to Offwidth:

In some ways. Literacy is awful. Lower than most developed nations. But is that the school system alone?

But the higher education is much stronger and that sits on the school system.

However the education system highlights the inconsistencies of Trump. What is the issue with common core? Its just standards? He's come out against it and so has Christie.. who introduced it into NJ.

But there is a huge range in the standards of schools. I think more so than in the UK but I have subbed here so have worked in most school districts so probably know more about how good and how bad school districts are here, than I do in the UK.

The school I work at has a science program that far exceeds any state school I saw in the UK. We do advanced anatomy, cat dissections, even cadaver labs.. we probably have a science program which eclipses many freshman University courses.

I just think they are told 'America's bad' when it isn't. Things have turned around. Jobs have come back> trump says it is at 30 even 40% unemployment which is just a lie.

Trump is somehow an acceptable voice of racism people can back.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
You need to put yourself in the shoes of his supporters. You know most of these people are not naturally hateful so work out why it is happening and that is the problem that needs to be dealt with.

The overall US University system with all its world class institutions could easily be caricatured as a finishing school for the richer third of the country with the sop of scholarships for the poor and huge debts for the middle (over a trillion dollars). If the system was anything like as as good as it should be the US wouldn't have had the high level skills gap it has seen for decades and this huge debt burden. In any case average bachelor's output standards just don't compare with Europe or the developed Eastern nations.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Last week I was having a meal with a wealthy manufacturing business owner based in Arkansas. As he was a devout Christian, pro-gun and anti abortion I asked him why on earth he was a Trump supporter ( Trump hardly covers himself in glory on these political traits).

He simply said because he believed that Trump would defend the Constitution.

By the same token I deal alot with manufacturing companies in the Mid-West. I have yet to meet one person who does not think Trump is an idiot and a disaster for USA 's standing in the world.

I find the whole thing fascinating.

Alot of republicans I know will not vote for Trump, and will be hard pushed to vote for Clinton. But I reckon that is what will happen when it comes to the ballot box.

In reply to neilh:

Electoral logic would indicate that Trump can't win the presidency but the same logic said he wouldn't get to where he has. Hillary should win but problems will come from scandals, low democrat turnout from a failure to cement votes from Sanders' supporters, some blue collar democrats turning to Trump, and the big liar completely spinning round.

In reply to neilh:

Trump has openly said he will silence the press and attack the first amendment..

In reply to Roadrunner5:

How would he actually do that in practice? He would likely be way more of a lame duck president if elected than Obama.

In reply to Offwidth:

Really good program on the Radio4 about similarities between Trump and some previous US phenomena such as the Know-Nothings and McCartyism - well worth a listen http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ybngz


You mean re-elected.

To be far to Tricky Dicky, he came very close in 1960 (possibly losing due to fraud in Texas and Illinois) and he was a moderate compared to Goldwater, so his 1968 win wasn't a great surprise. In 1972, McGovern's chances were not much worse than anyone elses. One of the ironies of Watergate is that it was so unnecessary.

In reply to Offwidth:



I don't think that is the case. TBH after teaching at a pretty solid state school (Uni) I found it comparable to the UK.

The US PhD is definitely superior to the UK. They take much longer but come out more rounded scientists. We come out very efficient but we don't have the grounding they do. To get a PhD in the US takes 8-9 years, in comparison mine took 6.5 years (3+3.5). You just do not get the same exposure.

Regarding his supporters. I think a lot are hateful. It's exposing the racial divide. The 'black lives' 'blue lives' issue has really stoked up a lot of the old hatred. His refusing to disavow Duke shows how much he wants to court those votes.

I risked falling out with a friend who cam out backing Trump. A few of us said it was personal and said we won't have anything to do with him (we have undocumented friends), this is more than politics. It is very personal and I think only in the past few weeks have some of his supporters started to understand that and the hurt they care causing.

His rally's are also nasty, abusive and violent. This is no way to conduct politics.

In reply to Offwidth:


He wants to remove the protections of the press.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/28/opinions/trump-first-amendment-protections-op...

http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/diaz/article/Trump-takes-on-First-Amendm...

In reply to Offwidth:

Maybe the only saving grace is that the traditional GOP still holds power elsewhere and they will use that to keep him in check- rather like they do with Obama.

Sanders just does not hold sway with middle class voters- they just visualise tax rises.

We sometimes think our system is fraught, it's nothing compared with theirs!

In reply to Offwidth:

Clinton might be damaged goods - can you imgine Cherie Blair v BoJo? (in a political sense)

This view from an avowed Sanders supporter might also be of interest http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/20-reasons-sanders-voters-are-j...

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Not read that one!

In reply to neilh:




I'm not sure. It's hard to get a true picture of the democrat race. The educated liberal are largely massively in favor, likewise the young. I was chatting to a mate about this, we both work in educated environments, he's at a liberal arts college. He knows almost no Trump supporters and everyone is a sanders supporter.. yet 20 miles away in the more poor military areas and Trump is dominant.

But look at sanders wins out west, yet he's trashed down in the south or the states with large numbers of minorities. If he doesn't get the black vote he's out. We are now moving back to primaries that he hasn't done well in.

I still think it will be HC.

But whilst a fan of Sanders I think his fans lie like any, make up stories about the press when he is getting the news. He is winning more recently but only where he was expected to.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Just shows you- I have yet to meet a Sanders supporter.

I agree it is likely that HC will win. Probably the best politican all round anyway.

In reply to Andy Hardy:


An intelligent, successful woman vs a populist clown - yep, it would pan out the same way. His many faults and failings would be excused, she would be held responsible for those of her husbands. Actually Clinton has more than a few skeletons of her own (Whitewater) and it will be a very dirty battle - my fear is that the republicans are sitting on something even bigger.

Don't think Sanders has much chance. So he took Alaska - big deal ! How democrats are there in Alaska ?

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I take it you didn't work in one of the scandal riddle private providers with mass failures then? The whole point of an average is to include the worst as well as the best. Most profs I know who have worked in both systems say average US output standards are broader but in the specialism barely above our bachelor's year 2. I'd fully acknowledge US PhDs are better educated than UK PhDs but there are real benefits to getting our Dr's out into the real world faster. Plus think on what proportion of those PhD and students in the US (and the UK which is also fee blighted) are overseas students?

I simply don't beleive a quarter of the US is motivated by racism. I've met people like Neil's pal who find the racist edge genuinely distateful but are just sick of the status quo and think Trump is the best of a bad bunch. Your labels in such a situation will be more polite but almost as as unfair as Trump's. Attack what he says (with facts), dont fall into his level of politics by labelling all his supporters as racist.

In reply to Offwidth:


That's not a flaw though, breadth is a intentional aspect of the system. The specialism comes later in (typically) two year masters degrees.

In reply to MG:

Its a massive flaw when you cant fill graduate vacancies in STEM subjects without recruiting overseas. Its a massive flaw if a significant part of that triliion dollar middle class debt doesnt get paid.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

That article is bizzarrly selective. If voters felt that way Sanders would get the nomination (looking nearly impossible right now unless pretty conservative super delegates panic) and its the exact opposite of the Trump effect as he is doing better than indicated. It also plain ignores that if Sanders was nominated against Trump Bloomberg said he would make it a three way race.

In reply to Offwidth:


How does that relate to the style of degrees?

Its a massive flaw if a significant part of that triliion dollar middle class debt doesnt get paid.

Again, funding is an entirely separate matter to the breadth of degree courses.

In reply to MG:

The system is what it is. If it doesn't educate people to meet the high paid high skill jobs that allows the debt to be repaid this will lead to more skill led immigration and a debt crisis: the system is then fundamentally flawed. One might say any benefits of breadth become rather academic. Dont worry too much though, the UK is currently heading the same way.

In reply to Offwidth:

Regarding STEM shortages.. That's a developed world problem.

I don't think 25% of the U.S. Supports trump. You need to look at how primaries and caucuses work.

The man has said Mexico sends over rapists.. He's actually offered to pay legal fees if someone punches a protestor..

I'm not going to list the rest but yes I can attack those who support him. He may have valid concerns and ideas, but encased in so much xenophobic hatred I do severely question the heart of anyone who supports him.

In reply to Offwidth:


Possibly, but, as above, it does, just in a different way to here. Also read this
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-an...

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Europe doesn't have anything like the same level of STEM shortages and neither do the Eastern developed countries.

Trump is a big evil liar, so what? If you want him to lose, target him, not his support as some of those will have to change the way they intend to vote (or have you forgotten your basic psychology that people dont tend to listen when you are insulting to them?). Arguing percentages in that way and calling 'electoral complications' is a bit daft and bloody patronising when the polls currently show roughly half the support of a party in a roughly matched two party system.

In reply to Offwidth:

You are being ignorant here.

Look at the numbers. You said 25% of the U.S. You are wrong. Go back to the numbers who have voted.

And yes I can criticize his supporters as they encourage him. As I said for me and many of us with undocumented family and friends this is personal. It's give Bering politics, it is not about lying, that's politics, it's the inciting hate. It is unacceptable.

Who the hell do you think you are to go around telling people what they should think and how they should act?

In reply to Offwidth:

Do you have any idea about US politics,

It's not an equal split in the country.

Go and look.

Increasingly people identify as independents. About 25% are republicans and at most 30-40% are trump supporters and most don't vote in the primaries and caucuses especially.

The numbers who have actually voted trump and way way lower and not just 'electoral complications'.

In reply to MG:

I'll take your article and raise you this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2013/05/28/how-foreign-born-graduates-impa...

Its not a total numbers gap, it is a competencies gap and it is pretty clear the US is lucky that it is so relaxed about importing so many high skilled individuals.

In reply to Chris the Tall:
Trumps numbers are horrible. He might be able to get out the vote in the Republican primaries but he's polling at -ve 70% and I can't believe that more exposure is going to improve that. HC has strong negatives too, but not on that scale.

Look at the above comment that someone believed Trump would protect the constitution. A bit of light shined on Trump will not help him at all

All three states that voted at HC in the democrat primaries posted rather similar numbers against HC in the last election cycle.

In reply to Offwidth:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/12/17/opinion-how-many-people-actually-sup...

"You have to consider the fact that Trump supporters — passionate as they may be —are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of America."

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I do think one of the fascinating things about the way the story is being told is that Trump doesn't have the same kind of commanding lead in the delegate counts that Clinton has over Sanders, and yet the impression given is that the Republican nomination is pretty Trump's, but the Democrat nomination is still up for grabs. Whereas the actual numbers show that Sanders doesn't really have a chance of winning the nomination. The exciting thing will be if the Democrats can harness the energy of the Sanders campaign and lump it on top of Clinton's gravitas and experience.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

You keep believing that spin from December. My percentage will be on the low side in the likely coming two horse race between two canditates,; each of whom we could say around 3/4 of the country don't want.

In reply to tony:
That's the problem and something we argue about on the left a lot here.

I've friends who say HC is so bad a vote for her is just as bad as a vote for Trump so they won't vote.. which is not true.

HC will do an OK job, she's a very qualified politician and a hard bitch who will stand up to the right. I hope Bernie stays involved to the end and stays with her campaign as she needs the youth support which he has harnessed.

Bernies supporters are saying he's right back in it but as we shift back to primaries it'll move back to HC and his path is very narrow.

Off width. You are wrong. You keep saying this but won't show the numbers. I don't think you understand the primary and caucus process. Most are closed, to just those registered as republicans. so around 25%, so your 25% is already in doubt, even if its 50% (which he rarely (almost never) touches), we're down at 12.5%. Then you look at voter turn out.. You are probably looking at 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 in the US are voting trump..

Interestingly we now enter states with unbound delegates who most likely won't back Trump.

Its going to be interesting because we also have states with unbound delegates, like Pennsylvania, Trump can win by a landslide and the delegates will probably not vote for him anyway. It's going to be a huge fight and I wouldn't be surprised if we do see riots in Cleveland if Trump leads and doesn't reach 1237 as I don't think he will win the nomination unless he gets over that value.

He says its a random value, it is not, it is the value which says the majority of the GOP/Reps want Trump.

In reply to Roadrunner5:




I wonder if it'll come down to that in the end - you pretty much know what you're going to get with Clinton, more of the same, whereas Trump is a complete unknown quantity, especially with his off-Constitution rants. The American right might be a funny bunch, but they're very hot on freedom of speech, and I can't see Trump's attacks on the press being supported widely by mainstream Republicans.

Do you get a vote?

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Is there really a serious left vote in the States? Aside from liberal college's ?

Too many voters want the American dream , and the thought of European socialism or even democratic socialsim in the States is just a bad dream for most.

Mind you America could teach Europe a thing or two about freedom of information and local politics.

In reply to neilh:




No, when they say left here they mean right.. Its incredibly right winged in generally, the left is probably our right.

In reply to tony:
No, not until I'm a citizen.

That will take a few years yet.

The big one is the next president will almost certainly decide the balance of the court. It's 4 on 4 at the moment and that will have a huge influence on US policies for the next 20 years.

As it stands I can't see Garland getting put through as the republicans have been quite insistent a president in his final year should not make this decision.. which is silly because you elect a president for 4 years, not 3.

Trumps downfall may be his lack of conservatism. He says he is a true republican then talks about attacking the freedom of the press and doesn't realize that he is also then knocking the constitution.

But so far its all been water of a ducks back with him.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Still a fantastic country and I find it refreshing to deal with people who are generally so positive compared with glum Europeans....

In reply to neilh:


I have a love hate relationship..

Some aspects I love but then you get into some of these gun debates and the extreme right and its just another world..

I'm seen as extremely liberal, when I'm probably fairly central in the UK, but to the left.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I never understood the guns issue until I was driving from Minneapolis to Fargo one Monday morning( Fargo is a weird place). Every other car had a shot deer strapped to the roof, at that point it, I got it.

In reply to neilh:


Yeah my wife family are from deep south jersey, its like a southern state, hunters in came everywhere. The school uniform is even khaki/cammo and orange blaze..

There they shoot for fun but a also do eat a lot of what they eat. I took my daughter around with my parents to see a family friend (a trump supporter btw..) and he was out back firing his black powder rifles.. came around the corner just guns all over the show. My parents were a bit taken a back.. even a huge confederate flag in his garage. lovely guy but says things you just shake your head at..

Yet one minute he's sharing FB posts about family leave in Scandinavia being so good.. then sharing republican posts..

In reply to neilh:


I stayed on top of a crag in Colorado once after topping out, with hunters shouting at me to get out of the line of fire, trying to be as visible as possible so that one such deer would have less chance of ending up strapped to a roof, or slumped in the back of a pickup. I still don't get it, and I hope I never will.

In reply to john arran:


TBH in the rural areas it really is about food. I'm not saying they don't enjoy it but living off the land is something they are proud of. When I said I'd never gutted a deer at a party the room went quiet.. it was brought up as the old guy was telling me what to expect with childbirth and said 'like, you know when you are gutting a deer..'..

In reply to Roadrunner5:

It's the bow and arrow brigade that get me. You also come across a lot of hunters who really care about the environment etc. So it is always wise not to prejudge based on British values .

In reply to neilh:


It's a very different scene. Very much a working class activity. But the whole seasons thing is funny, bow season, black powder season..

But the hunters are seen as part of the ecological approach to managing the countryside.

They've even given out permits to hunt the bobcats in NH this year which was sad to see, I saw one up in Maine the night before we got married.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

You say I'm wrong but you are using daft arguments to prove it (similar to the percentage of those eligable in the UK who actually voted conservative) . My view is based on pundits across the US press and is hardly controversial.

What exactly are your predictions for national polling for a Trump vs Clinton election.... you cant be serious that you think Clinton will win massively taking more than 70% of those voting nationally?

In reply to Offwidth:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_...

In reply to Offwidth:
Every poll shows her winning.

You can call it daft.

I am using figures. If only 25% of her population are registered republicans how can 25% be supporting trump...

Just because he is getting 50% (at most) in closed primaries is NOT 25% of the U.S. Supporting trump...

You can argue all you want.

You are taking it to another level when you say 'well they will vote', they aren't his supporters. Registered others rarely cross party lines but many will actually not vote than vote trump..

In reply to Roadrunner5:
You can do better than blatant ducking of the question. Nearly everyone thinks Clinton will win but by how much will she win in your opinion?

Who will these US voters choose to support when they dislike both candidates? The predictive link MG posted is not unusual and matches what I am saying. Every poll is indicating well over a quarter of voters will be opting for Trump. If we believe what you say, this is impossible. The reality is the intense dislike of most US voters for Hillary isnt far behind a an overlapping large group who intensely dislike Donald.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Last year I met somebody who shot a bear. Then I learnt he had to wait 5 years to get a licence for the bear shooting that year as it was strictly controlled for conservation. It took them ages to stalk it. Not really something I enjoyed listening g to. There was no triumphilisam however.

Interestingly trump is probably anti gun as most New Yorkers are, despite his sons antics. Bloomberg is the politico I know who would be anti gun .just shows how difficult it is.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


If they didn't all have guns, one of them might shoot the president...

In reply to Offwidth:

I think it will be close. Hilary isn't that popular - few republicans will support her even if they detest Trump, and a number of Sanders supporters will stay at home. Trump will get most natural republicans but also pick up some disgruntled blue collar manual voters who might otherwise vote democrat. He will lose some evangelicals, maybe. How this breaks down state by state way be important.

In reply to MG:

I think it depends on Bernie's supporters. I think Hilary will win it, it'll be close because after 8 years people want change.

Voter turnout will be her biggest challenge.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

So at last you agree...

In reply to Offwidth:


No.

There is a difference between reluctantly backing and being an active supporter.

Many in the US will follow their party. They will never vote for another party no matter how much they dislike the front runner of their own.

That will happen.

But the country is not split like you think it is. Its republicans, independents and democrats.

As it stands HC wins by 10-12 points in most polls.

However HC voters are not so blind. We already know those who support Trump are oblivious to his nasty rhetoric.

And yes we must also criticize his supporters chanting abuse at immigrants, shouting the racist abuse, punching protestors.

This view that we must play his policies and not attack the hatred and violence is just wrong.

We can and must criticism those who support a man who is splitting a nation along racial lines. I've said before it is very personal for our family, like many families in the US. This is no longer about simple politics, it's not about schools, it's not about common core. It's standing up for our hard working immigrants and not letting them being attacked and insulted. To say this is about such things is ridiculous. It is because sadly the US does still have 10-15% of the population who wanted to unite behind an acceptable face of racism and Trump has given them that.

Obama is already very tough on the undocumented. Only last month ICE were raiding local houses. Deportations are through the roof under Obama but he is not inciting hatred against them. He is not asking his supporters to drag them out, he is not saying he will pay the legal fees of anyone who punches someone who shouts at his speeches.

I actually don't think trump is a racist, he just thinks playing that card can get him the support to get him into the white house. He's a demagogue with no core principles who is willing to, and encourages, the support of the racists to get his way.

In reply to Offwidth:
You keep saying how bad America is.. how upset the population are.

They are upset because we've had 8 years of Obama.

they think they've had 8 years of federal meddling from Washington which has ruined their education system... policies like.. 'No Child Left Behind'. The irony is that was Bush, Obama brought in 'Every Child Succeeds Act' which actually passes power back to the States. It was actually supported by the conservatives exactly because of that.

Everyone moans about Common Core, Trump does.. why? Ask them what it is. They have no idea. Its just a set of standards as some states (notably Republican States) have abysmal standards.

The right wing press has nailed into the public that the US is rotten, that unemployment is 'perhaps as high as 30 even 40%'.. which its not. Its at a long time low right now. We've had constant growth after the economic disaster which was George Bush.

http://www.voanews.com/content/us-unemployment-drops-to-six-year-low/259183...

look at US car sales. We have it hammered into us that Obama let the workers struggle, look at how sales have improved over the last decade: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-car-sales-poised-for-their-best-month-ever-...
Just because people say the US is awful doesn't mean it is.

Things are not perfect by a long way but Obama has done as good a job as anyone could have with the opposition he faced.

There is genuine desire for change, just as there almost always is after 2-3 terms of any government. Obamacare was a fundamental shift in US policy. Just because there is that desire does not mean we shouldn't call out Trump and his supporters for their divisive, xenophobic, sexist, racist comments and actions. Whilst I can understand a minimal government approach and a fiscally conservative mindset I have no time for the hatred and xenophobia being used to get those changes.

I am not a fan of Cruz nor Kasich, however, at least both are pretty much consistent conservatives with core principles. I may disagree with their views on the role of religion and pro-life sentiments but I can understand them. You can hold respect for them whilst disagreeing.

That isn't the case with Trump, all his other policies are redundant in the face of his xenophobia and violence inspiring approach to government. The man is evil and a huge threat to US security, never mind local security.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-presidency-global-threat-economis...

"The Economist Intelligence Unit released its updated global risk assessment, ranking the election of Trump a 12 on a scale of one to 25 £ the same number it assigned to the possibility that jihadi terrorism would destabilize the global economy."

In reply to Chris the Tall:

This might help give an explanation:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35890784

In reply to Roadrunner5:

We agree on the numbers because I was so naive as to regard someone who votes for someone as a supporter. Its exactly, those reluctant supporters who need convincing not to vote to Trump who would be insulted by much of what you and the liberal left have said.

On the economy I'm sticking. I'm a supporter of what Obama would have liked to have done but he could only do so much in the face of Republican control... growth simply hasn't put money back into the middle classes. These jobs you talk of are real but (like in the UK) are lower paid, less secure and less likely to be unionised. House values still havent recovered (they have in the UK). The rich have got richer and the rest stagnate with the young in that group facing debt mountains with less parental help than ever before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

The figures on education are the same. The best education in the world is on offer in the US but the average values are poor compared to developed nation equivalents.

Health was moving to disaster level pre Obama care but its still not great. It is by far the most expensive system in the world per capita and the average delivery is poor by developed standards. For the rich it is the best in the world.

The right wing press have done a good job of damaging the president, but snakes bite non?