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This summer Rockfax will be publishing a new guidebook to the Chamonix area of France (and a bit of Italy). The book will contain everything – valley cragging, granite rock routes, mixed faces and ridges and long multi-day mountain routes including Mont Blanc Read more
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In reply to UKC Gear:
"Not an April Fool" - Of course not, nice one guys you nearly had me for a second!
Seriously, RockFax producing a guide to Alpine climbing!?!? How stupid do you think we are!
P.S Looks really good - looking forward to seeing it! Maybe I'll be converted to the Alpine after my trip in July!
"Not an April Fool" - Of course not, nice one guys you nearly had me for a second!
Seriously, RockFax producing a guide to Alpine climbing!?!? How stupid do you think we are!
P.S Looks really good - looking forward to seeing it! Maybe I'll be converted to the Alpine after my trip in July!
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In reply to UKC Gear:
I haven't been to Chamonix for a few years, and my knowledge of the bars and clubs is well out of date. Will the new guidebook will fix that?
I haven't been to Chamonix for a few years, and my knowledge of the bars and clubs is well out of date. Will the new guidebook will fix that?
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Unless this is the best prepared fools joke ever (which it isn't), I look forward to getting this in the summer.
Rockfax have had this in production for a good while.
Unless this is the best prepared fools joke ever (which it isn't), I look forward to getting this in the summer.
Rockfax have had this in production for a good while.
Dudes we really need Android app.
Post edited at 14:12
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In reply to nutme:
Yep, we are working hard on that. None of the people involved in producing this book have anything to do with the Android development so it isn't slowing progress.
Alan
> Dudes we really need Android app.
Yep, we are working hard on that. None of the people involved in producing this book have anything to do with the Android development so it isn't slowing progress.
Alan
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In reply to Removed Userdazblow:
This has been in the pipeline for a while. Pretty sure it's genuine.
> I so wanted to believe that this was genuine!
This has been in the pipeline for a while. Pretty sure it's genuine.
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In reply to UKC Gear:
I'm sure it will be a great guide but what do the local activists think about this? Did anyone approach them?
Who's going to pay for the bolts on the Envers if Brits stop buying Piola's (very good) guide?
I'm sure it will be a great guide but what do the local activists think about this? Did anyone approach them?
Who's going to pay for the bolts on the Envers if Brits stop buying Piola's (very good) guide?
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In reply to UKC Gear:
I'll definitely buy this for the up-to-date information and topos, however if it's the usual A5 size I'll probably be leaving in town to save weight. I think it's just too big a format for alpine stuff but that's just my opinion.
I'll definitely buy this for the up-to-date information and topos, however if it's the usual A5 size I'll probably be leaving in town to save weight. I think it's just too big a format for alpine stuff but that's just my opinion.
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In reply to Mr. Lee:
I have to say I hope it is A5. Much as I agree it's not exactly the perfect format for taking on routes, I think the best format for taking on routes is actually a photo of the topo, regardless of the size of the guide and besides the bigger the page, the better the information will present in print.
I have to say I hope it is A5. Much as I agree it's not exactly the perfect format for taking on routes, I think the best format for taking on routes is actually a photo of the topo, regardless of the size of the guide and besides the bigger the page, the better the information will present in print.
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Since the Alpine Club appear to have dropped the ball on guides to the Alps, no doubt I'll buy a copy of this when it appears.
However, as a comment on the page you have excerpted:
1. Two full pages to cover just the Frendo Spur seems a bit of a waste of space. Is that typical of the rest of the guide? For myself, I'd prefer a 'denser' coverage, even if the end result might be less visually attractive book.
2. I am surprised at the verbosity of the text description for the Frendo - particularly since the description then dismisses the traditional finish up the rognon.
Since the Alpine Club appear to have dropped the ball on guides to the Alps, no doubt I'll buy a copy of this when it appears.
However, as a comment on the page you have excerpted:
1. Two full pages to cover just the Frendo Spur seems a bit of a waste of space. Is that typical of the rest of the guide? For myself, I'd prefer a 'denser' coverage, even if the end result might be less visually attractive book.
2. I am surprised at the verbosity of the text description for the Frendo - particularly since the description then dismisses the traditional finish up the rognon.
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In reply to Rob Parsons:
Yes, if this is typical then it sounds like it might be a bit like the N Wales and SW Rockraxes - a bulky book with lots of gloss, but not much content, half way between a guidebook and a coffee table book. Perhaps a case of Rockfax cashing in on/creating honeypots, a new "Hundred longest queues of Brits in Chamonmix".
> Two full pages to cover just the Frendo Spur seems a bit of a waste of space. Is that typical of the rest of the guide? For myself, I'd prefer a 'denser' coverage, even if the end result might be less visually attractive book.
Yes, if this is typical then it sounds like it might be a bit like the N Wales and SW Rockraxes - a bulky book with lots of gloss, but not much content, half way between a guidebook and a coffee table book. Perhaps a case of Rockfax cashing in on/creating honeypots, a new "Hundred longest queues of Brits in Chamonmix".
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In reply to Rob Parsons:
Ah, the UKC Spur. You mean there are other routes in Chamonix?
> 1. Two full pages to cover just the Frendo Spur seems a bit of a waste of space (...) I am surprised at the verbosity of the text description for the Frendo (...)
Ah, the UKC Spur. You mean there are other routes in Chamonix?
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In reply to jon:
Yes, but none so overhyped or overrated. Not that it's actually a poor route.......
> Ah, the UKC Spur. You mean there are other routes in Chamonix?
Yes, but none so overhyped or overrated. Not that it's actually a poor route.......
In reply to Robert Durran:
Yes that's what I getting at re my above post. Small enough to take on a plane but looking a bit bulky for taking on a route. I can see the RF topos are going to be top quality but the Snow, Ice and Mixed guides had perfectly usable topos, with sufficient description, in an A6 format with little bulk. It'll be interesting to see some of the other pages from the guide to see if the format is consistent as there's probably lots of areas that need very little description once at the base of the route.
> Yes, if this is typical then it sounds like it might be a bit like the N Wales and SW Rockraxes - a bulky book with lots of gloss, but not much content, half way between a guidebook and a coffee table book. Perhaps a case of Rockfax cashing in on/creating honeypots, a new "Hundred longest queues of Brits in Chamonmix".
Yes that's what I getting at re my above post. Small enough to take on a plane but looking a bit bulky for taking on a route. I can see the RF topos are going to be top quality but the Snow, Ice and Mixed guides had perfectly usable topos, with sufficient description, in an A6 format with little bulk. It'll be interesting to see some of the other pages from the guide to see if the format is consistent as there's probably lots of areas that need very little description once at the base of the route.
Post edited at 12:40
In reply to Rob Parsons:
We are featuring some routes more prominently than others, focussing on the biggies obviously. For example, the North Face of the Droites has 8 routes over 4 pages.
Each to his own on this, but on these long routes a 15cm photo-topo can only go so far. I think the extra depth offered by the descriptions should be appreciated by most, but may make it less appealing for the non-English market.
Alan
> 1. Two full pages to cover just the Frendo Spur seems a bit of a waste of space. Is that typical of the rest of the guide? For myself, I'd prefer a 'denser' coverage, even if the end result might be less visually attractive book.
We are featuring some routes more prominently than others, focussing on the biggies obviously. For example, the North Face of the Droites has 8 routes over 4 pages.
> 2. I am surprised at the verbosity of the text description for the Frendo - particularly since the description then dismisses the traditional finish up the rognon.
Each to his own on this, but on these long routes a 15cm photo-topo can only go so far. I think the extra depth offered by the descriptions should be appreciated by most, but may make it less appealing for the non-English market.
Alan
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Curious comment when you consider that the two books that you refer to have more routes than other selects to the same areas without really being significantly more bulky.
Alan
> Yes, if this is typical then it sounds like it might be a bit like the N Wales and SW Rockraxes - a bulky book with lots of gloss, but not much content, half way between a guidebook and a coffee table book.
Curious comment when you consider that the two books that you refer to have more routes than other selects to the same areas without really being significantly more bulky.
Alan
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In reply to Mr. Lee:
Yes, it may well be a bit bulky for a long route, but the photo of the page technique should work well, especially as we rarely put essential route info on more than a single page or spread.
I expect the App version to be popular though for this since that obviously combines the detail, accessibility and in a small package you are likely to be carrying anyway.
Alan
> Yes that's what I getting at re my above post. Small enough to take on a plane but looking a bit bulky for taking on a route. I can see the RF topos are going to be top quality but the Snow, Ice and Mixed guides had perfectly usable topos, with sufficient description, in an A6 format with little bulk. It'll be interesting to see some of the other pages from the guide to see if the format is consistent as there's probably lots of areas that need very little description once at the base of the route.
Yes, it may well be a bit bulky for a long route, but the photo of the page technique should work well, especially as we rarely put essential route info on more than a single page or spread.
I expect the App version to be popular though for this since that obviously combines the detail, accessibility and in a small package you are likely to be carrying anyway.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Is there something that makes putting contours on maps difficult these days? I see this guide doesn't and the most recent CAI guides don't but up to about 2000 they did (in fact the maps in these were often better than the commercial maps in Italy!)
Is there something that makes putting contours on maps difficult these days? I see this guide doesn't and the most recent CAI guides don't but up to about 2000 they did (in fact the maps in these were often better than the commercial maps in Italy!)
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Alan, I hope you're going to spell 'aiguille' in a form recognisable to the British Alpiniste...
Alan, I hope you're going to spell 'aiguille' in a form recognisable to the British Alpiniste...
In reply to UKC Gear:
Awesome! Rockfax takes on, head to head, the Chamonix guides and the French climbing establishment instead of just 'cottage-industry' guide producers in more rural areas of France who just want to make a few euros towards re-equipment.
I look forward to re-living my youth with franco/brit knife fights in the Cham. bars.
If I ever go back to Cham.
Awesome! Rockfax takes on, head to head, the Chamonix guides and the French climbing establishment instead of just 'cottage-industry' guide producers in more rural areas of France who just want to make a few euros towards re-equipment.
I look forward to re-living my youth with franco/brit knife fights in the Cham. bars.
If I ever go back to Cham.
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In reply to MG:
In fact there are contours on this map but probably not as many as some people might want. It is currently a huge single map which we will be releasing as it is in the App, and as a free PDF. I find it very useful for working out the layout of everything.
Adding contours is a right faff since it has to be done manually. Also, it isn't intended that these are used for difficult navigation since it is more sensible to have a more detailed map for that, but they do focus on the important climbing landmarks which makes them good for planning and simple navigation which could end up getting a bit cluttered if we had full contours under.
Alan
> Is there something that makes putting contours on maps difficult these days?
In fact there are contours on this map but probably not as many as some people might want. It is currently a huge single map which we will be releasing as it is in the App, and as a free PDF. I find it very useful for working out the layout of everything.
Adding contours is a right faff since it has to be done manually. Also, it isn't intended that these are used for difficult navigation since it is more sensible to have a more detailed map for that, but they do focus on the important climbing landmarks which makes them good for planning and simple navigation which could end up getting a bit cluttered if we had full contours under.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I didn't compare it to other books. I just think that the N Wales and SW Rockfaxes have a lot of space taken up by unnecessary stuff (such as not particularly inspiring double page photos) that could have been used for more routes, or, alternatively left out to make the guide more compact.
> Curious comment when you consider that the two books that you refer to have more routes than other selects to the same areas without really being significantly more bulky.
I didn't compare it to other books. I just think that the N Wales and SW Rockfaxes have a lot of space taken up by unnecessary stuff (such as not particularly inspiring double page photos) that could have been used for more routes, or, alternatively left out to make the guide more compact.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I suspect you are in a minority on that one, as sales of our compact, route-packed, less glossy and pocket-sized guides to the Peak and North Wales would indicate compared to their bigger and more substantial partners.
Alan
> I didn't compare it to other books. I just think that the N Wales and SW Rockfaxes have a lot of space taken up by unnecessary stuff (such as not particularly inspiring double page photos) that could have been used for more routes, or, alternatively left out to make the guide more compact.
I suspect you are in a minority on that one, as sales of our compact, route-packed, less glossy and pocket-sized guides to the Peak and North Wales would indicate compared to their bigger and more substantial partners.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using my phone in an Alpine environment as a guide as I prefer to keep it in a safe, dry place in case needed to make an emergency call. Sure lots of people feel differently. Plus I'm an Android user. Any likelihood you would ever consider PDF chapter downloads as an alternative to apps?
> I expect the App version to be popular though for this since that obviously combines the detail, accessibility and in a small package you are likely to be carrying anyway.
Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using my phone in an Alpine environment as a guide as I prefer to keep it in a safe, dry place in case needed to make an emergency call. Sure lots of people feel differently. Plus I'm an Android user. Any likelihood you would ever consider PDF chapter downloads as an alternative to apps?
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In reply to Mr. Lee:
I couldn't agree more (at least I'm sure I wouldn't agree more if I had a smartphone!). Makes much more sense to carry a paper copy (and possibly a spare in case it blows away) and keep my fast 'n light phone somewhere safe for emergencies. A photo on my camera is ok, but much more fiddly to use than paper. Personally I hope that the future of guidebooks is printable downloads included in the price of the book.
> Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using my phone in an Alpine environment as a guide as I prefer to keep it in a safe, dry place in case needed to make an emergency call.
I couldn't agree more (at least I'm sure I wouldn't agree more if I had a smartphone!). Makes much more sense to carry a paper copy (and possibly a spare in case it blows away) and keep my fast 'n light phone somewhere safe for emergencies. A photo on my camera is ok, but much more fiddly to use than paper. Personally I hope that the future of guidebooks is printable downloads included in the price of the book.
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In reply to Mr. Lee:
We have been running our PDF Miniguide system for the last 14 years and this included PDF versions of some sections of print guides in the early days. We are now withdrawing it since it has been hard work to maintain, plus I'm afraid that people just distribute the PDFs around and it is impossible to stop this happening. There were cafes in Kalymnos selling print-outs of our Kalymnos MiniGuide for themselves within days of it being made available. PDF is yesterday's technology really.
So as far as Rockfax are concerned, we certainly won't be going back to PDF guides now that we have the App system.
We are looking at developing a mobile case for use in the mountains with your phone.
Alan
> Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using my phone in an Alpine environment as a guide as I prefer to keep it in a safe, dry place in case needed to make an emergency call. Sure lots of people feel differently. Plus I'm an Android user. Any likelihood you would ever consider PDF chapter downloads as an alternative to apps?
We have been running our PDF Miniguide system for the last 14 years and this included PDF versions of some sections of print guides in the early days. We are now withdrawing it since it has been hard work to maintain, plus I'm afraid that people just distribute the PDFs around and it is impossible to stop this happening. There were cafes in Kalymnos selling print-outs of our Kalymnos MiniGuide for themselves within days of it being made available. PDF is yesterday's technology really.
So as far as Rockfax are concerned, we certainly won't be going back to PDF guides now that we have the App system.
We are looking at developing a mobile case for use in the mountains with your phone.
Alan
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In reply to UKC Gear:
If you really care about weight then surely you are all photocopying and laminating the relevant route? (only from your own copy of the guidebook, of course).
I do this a lot for caving, which generally isn't too kind on guidebooks or surveys (cave maps)...
If you really care about weight then surely you are all photocopying and laminating the relevant route? (only from your own copy of the guidebook, of course).
I do this a lot for caving, which generally isn't too kind on guidebooks or surveys (cave maps)...
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
My experience of apps and smart phones in the mountains has been that they are a right faff and not very practical. In my case, with an iphone, it has been unusable because the battery doesn't last long enough in cold weather. If no pdf's then its back to more of yesterdays technology - photocopies. I've taken to leaving the smart phone at home and using an ancient Nokia so that I've got something I'm sure I can make an emergency call on if need be.
My experience of apps and smart phones in the mountains has been that they are a right faff and not very practical. In my case, with an iphone, it has been unusable because the battery doesn't last long enough in cold weather. If no pdf's then its back to more of yesterdays technology - photocopies. I've taken to leaving the smart phone at home and using an ancient Nokia so that I've got something I'm sure I can make an emergency call on if need be.
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
Exactly this. I couldn't envisage taking any guidebook on a long and hard route no matter what size it was. I just use a combination of photocopy / sketch with the app, works great for big routes. For single pitch then by all means carry the book around.
I can only imagine the look on the Europeans faces when you pull out your 400 page guide 15 pitches up
> If you really care about weight then surely you are all photocopying and laminating the relevant route?
Exactly this. I couldn't envisage taking any guidebook on a long and hard route no matter what size it was. I just use a combination of photocopy / sketch with the app, works great for big routes. For single pitch then by all means carry the book around.
I can only imagine the look on the Europeans faces when you pull out your 400 page guide 15 pitches up
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In reply to James Rushforth:
It would simply confirm to them that you're a Brit. The Ron Hills, red neckerchief and sunburn would have already given them a clue...
> I can only imagine the look on the Europeans faces when you pull out your 400 page guide 15 pitches up
It would simply confirm to them that you're a Brit. The Ron Hills, red neckerchief and sunburn would have already given them a clue...
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In reply to Dave:
Fair points but don't make the mistake of judging the system based on the technology of the phone you have in your hand today. Think instead of the one you will have in your hand in 5 years time. Battery longevity, signal strength, screen technology, robust and waterproof phones are all improving dramatically. My prediction is that 10 years from now, people will have forgotten about wifi hotspots and won't realise that their phones actually have batteries.
Alan
> My experience of apps and smart phones in the mountains has been that they are a right faff and not very practical. In my case, with an iphone, it has been unusable because the battery doesn't last long enough in cold weather.
Fair points but don't make the mistake of judging the system based on the technology of the phone you have in your hand today. Think instead of the one you will have in your hand in 5 years time. Battery longevity, signal strength, screen technology, robust and waterproof phones are all improving dramatically. My prediction is that 10 years from now, people will have forgotten about wifi hotspots and won't realise that their phones actually have batteries.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Will they be lighter than a bit of paper though, and so cheap and effortlessly backed up that you won't be too bothered if they blow away? And will my mindset have changed such that I don't go to the hills at least partly to get away from technology?
The most useful technology would be a tiny portable photocopier to take with me on a trip.
> Battery longevity, signal strength, screen technology, robust and waterproof phones are all improving dramatically. My prediction is that 10 years from now, people will have forgotten about wifi hotspots and won't realise that their phones actually have batteries.
Will they be lighter than a bit of paper though, and so cheap and effortlessly backed up that you won't be too bothered if they blow away? And will my mindset have changed such that I don't go to the hills at least partly to get away from technology?
The most useful technology would be a tiny portable photocopier to take with me on a trip.
Post edited at 10:17
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Maybe...
Probably...
Definitely not!
> Will they be lighter than a bit of paper though
Maybe...
> and so cheap and effortlessly backed up that you won't be too bothered if they blow away?
Probably...
> And will my mindset have changed?
Definitely not!
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
So I'm in my van for a fortnight in Chamonix. My route choices depend on weather and conditions. Am I meant to have photocopied and laminated the entire guide before I leave or have a portable photocopier and laminator in my van/tent/bivy to deal with the change of plans?
> If you really care about weight then surely you are all photocopying and laminating the relevant route? (only from your own copy of the guidebook, of course).
So I'm in my van for a fortnight in Chamonix. My route choices depend on weather and conditions. Am I meant to have photocopied and laminated the entire guide before I leave or have a portable photocopier and laminator in my van/tent/bivy to deal with the change of plans?
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In reply to galpinos:
And if it's a two month trip are you meant to have photocopied and laminated a whole library of alpine guides. As I said above, that portable photocopier/printer/scanner is going to be the most important future technology.
> So I'm in my van for a fortnight in Chamonix. My route choices depend on weather and conditions. Am I meant to have photocopied and laminated the entire guide before I leave or have a portable photocopier and laminator in my van/tent/bivy to deal with the change of plans?
And if it's a two month trip are you meant to have photocopied and laminated a whole library of alpine guides. As I said above, that portable photocopier/printer/scanner is going to be the most important future technology.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I missed that comment, you're right Robert. It'd need to be solar powered too.....
> And if it's a two month trip are you meant to have photocopied and laminated a whole library of alpine guides. As I said above, that portable photocopier/printer/scanner is going to be the most important future technology.
I missed that comment, you're right Robert. It'd need to be solar powered too.....
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In reply to galpinos:
'Lamination' is an unnecessary and fussy step too far- so just forget about it.
Photocopying is what we always used to do: campsites or places in town will do it for a charge.
Otherwise, dismember the physical book, and carry the actual pages. (No, I don't *like* doing that either - but when needs must ...)
'Lamination' is an unnecessary and fussy step too far- so just forget about it.
Photocopying is what we always used to do: campsites or places in town will do it for a charge.
Otherwise, dismember the physical book, and carry the actual pages. (No, I don't *like* doing that either - but when needs must ...)
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In reply to galpinos:
I forget but isn't there a photocopier in the OHM?
> So I'm in my van for a fortnight in Chamonix. My route choices depend on weather and conditions. Am I meant to have photocopied and laminated the entire guide before I leave or have a portable photocopier and laminator in my van/tent/bivy to deal with the change of plans?
I forget but isn't there a photocopier in the OHM?
In reply to planetmarshall:
This is going to be really interesting & will result in a real live test of the new rockfax guide book on a day to day basis.......
What will the personnel in the mountain office photocopy when you ask & pay for a topo of your proposed route, a copy from the original guidebook or the new, modern version?
Will they even have a copy of the rockfax guidebook in the office?
Sure they are reluctant to photocopy pages from guide books that are still in print to be honest....
> I forget but isn't there a photocopier in the OHM?
This is going to be really interesting & will result in a real live test of the new rockfax guide book on a day to day basis.......
What will the personnel in the mountain office photocopy when you ask & pay for a topo of your proposed route, a copy from the original guidebook or the new, modern version?
Will they even have a copy of the rockfax guidebook in the office?
Sure they are reluctant to photocopy pages from guide books that are still in print to be honest....
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Battery life is improving more due to low power design than improvements in batteries. As an engineer I can't see a time in the next decade when phone battery life wont still be an issue, especially in low temperatures. Emmissive displays in daylight and connecting to the network are always going to be fairly power hungry. There are also limits on communication network capacity (that have been reached in some gulf states where they effectively gave bandwidth for free). In contrast I can't see any change in Moore's law in the next decade. So the rapidly improving computing power and storage capacity of your phone will I suspect lead to more stuff being stored in advance.
Battery life is improving more due to low power design than improvements in batteries. As an engineer I can't see a time in the next decade when phone battery life wont still be an issue, especially in low temperatures. Emmissive displays in daylight and connecting to the network are always going to be fairly power hungry. There are also limits on communication network capacity (that have been reached in some gulf states where they effectively gave bandwidth for free). In contrast I can't see any change in Moore's law in the next decade. So the rapidly improving computing power and storage capacity of your phone will I suspect lead to more stuff being stored in advance.
In reply to Offwidth:
Hi Offwidth, agree re the constraints of batteries. However, I think that the small gadget sized hydrogen fuel cells just coming onto the market will be a game changer. Also like me, it's possible to pick up a humungous battery with gazillions of mAh to piggy back onto your phone.
Hi Offwidth, agree re the constraints of batteries. However, I think that the small gadget sized hydrogen fuel cells just coming onto the market will be a game changer. Also like me, it's possible to pick up a humungous battery with gazillions of mAh to piggy back onto your phone.
In reply to galpinos:
If you cannot be bothered to photocopy the routes on your hitlist.......
just buy two guides and cut one up for the hill. ( Only a few % of the cost of an Alpine holiday )
I am sure Alan will approve
> So I'm in my van for a fortnight in Chamonix. My route choices depend on weather and conditions. Am I meant to have photocopied and laminated the entire guide before I leave or have a portable photocopier and laminator in my van/tent/bivy to deal with the change of plans?
If you cannot be bothered to photocopy the routes on your hitlist.......
just buy two guides and cut one up for the hill. ( Only a few % of the cost of an Alpine holiday )
I am sure Alan will approve
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
'I suspect you are in a minority on that one, as sales of our compact, route-packed, less glossy and pocket-sized guides to the Peak and North Wales would indicate compared to their bigger and more substantial partners.
The elephant in the room of your argument is the Ground Up North Wales guide. That book was first published in 2006, and contained 670 routes in a format well suited to be carried on multipitch routes. You Pocketz guide from 2010 contained 335 routes in a small format, but why would anyone buy that one when they could have 670 routes for not much more money? Then in 2013 your brought out the monster North Wales Climbs with over 1000 routes.
Maybe people want the most possible routes for their money, not the largest topos.
'I suspect you are in a minority on that one, as sales of our compact, route-packed, less glossy and pocket-sized guides to the Peak and North Wales would indicate compared to their bigger and more substantial partners.
The elephant in the room of your argument is the Ground Up North Wales guide. That book was first published in 2006, and contained 670 routes in a format well suited to be carried on multipitch routes. You Pocketz guide from 2010 contained 335 routes in a small format, but why would anyone buy that one when they could have 670 routes for not much more money? Then in 2013 your brought out the monster North Wales Climbs with over 1000 routes.
Maybe people want the most possible routes for their money, not the largest topos.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Agreed, but quietly clipped on and quickly recharging/supporting the battery in the next year or so. Not counting vehicles, I've run loads of consumer goods off FC packs which are exponentially decreasing in size.
> Not in standard mobile phones in the next 5 years and probably not 10.
Agreed, but quietly clipped on and quickly recharging/supporting the battery in the next year or so. Not counting vehicles, I've run loads of consumer goods off FC packs which are exponentially decreasing in size.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm just a consumer on the subject of battery power but it seems to me the driving forces from phone producers etc is to use additional battery power to make generally more powerful phones on the processing front, else make them slimmer and more stylish. Given 99% of people plug their phone to a charger on a nightly basis, is battery life surely a lower priority for most consumers? In the last ten years batteries have improved yet battery life has considerably reduced. Nobody's complaning because of the added features, which seems to me what the market generally wants. Why wouldn't that pattern continue?
Also, battery power seems the lesser concern for me if using a phone as a guidebook (and/or camera) in an alpine environment. The more often I am using it on a climb the more likely I am to have an accident with it, which then affects my ability to call mountain rescue. To me one of the best insurance policies on a long climb is to keep my phone in a safe place and forget about it.
I'm just a consumer on the subject of battery power but it seems to me the driving forces from phone producers etc is to use additional battery power to make generally more powerful phones on the processing front, else make them slimmer and more stylish. Given 99% of people plug their phone to a charger on a nightly basis, is battery life surely a lower priority for most consumers? In the last ten years batteries have improved yet battery life has considerably reduced. Nobody's complaning because of the added features, which seems to me what the market generally wants. Why wouldn't that pattern continue?
Also, battery power seems the lesser concern for me if using a phone as a guidebook (and/or camera) in an alpine environment. The more often I am using it on a climb the more likely I am to have an accident with it, which then affects my ability to call mountain rescue. To me one of the best insurance policies on a long climb is to keep my phone in a safe place and forget about it.
1
In reply to Mr. Lee:
Battery longevity is one of the biggest prizes around. The company that develops the tiny safe battery with a long life is going to be massive since every new mobile phone will want it. The same with screens and virtually every aspect of mobile phones. It is an area with a disproportionately huge amount of the world's brightest engineers spending their time on since the financial rewards are huge.
I suspect that more robust phones and carrying wallets will change people's thinking on this one. Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that the thought of even taking a phone on a route was pretty alien to most climbers, it still is to some!
Alan
> In the last ten years batteries have improved yet battery life has considerably reduced. Nobody's complaning because of the added features, which seems to me what the market generally wants. Why wouldn't that pattern continue?
Battery longevity is one of the biggest prizes around. The company that develops the tiny safe battery with a long life is going to be massive since every new mobile phone will want it. The same with screens and virtually every aspect of mobile phones. It is an area with a disproportionately huge amount of the world's brightest engineers spending their time on since the financial rewards are huge.
> To me one of the best insurance policies on a long climb is to keep my phone in a safe place and forget about it.
I suspect that more robust phones and carrying wallets will change people's thinking on this one. Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that the thought of even taking a phone on a route was pretty alien to most climbers, it still is to some!
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I know research engineers in these areas leading to the next generation stuff (and previously worked on the stuff that is new now) ... it is highly unlikely that there will be any significant improvements cf the best current phones in battery life or display power consumption in the next 5 years. Processing power and memory size will improve significantly.
I know research engineers in these areas leading to the next generation stuff (and previously worked on the stuff that is new now) ... it is highly unlikely that there will be any significant improvements cf the best current phones in battery life or display power consumption in the next 5 years. Processing power and memory size will improve significantly.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I think in a real life or death situation with your battery just about flat and communication possibilities with rescue about to fade away, you might wish you'd had a photocopy of the route description...
I think in a real life or death situation with your battery just about flat and communication possibilities with rescue about to fade away, you might wish you'd had a photocopy of the route description...
3
In reply to jon:
At least the cost and quality of photocopiers has gone the right way.
I was quite smug (in 1977) to have access to a (thermal paper ) office copier and duly copied the target Alpine routes for the season.
On the first route the copy got steadily fainter and we lost lines where the paper was creased.
Anyway , after a bit of guesswork we managed to get up and half way down the Cima Grande, the last words on the page were " this ledge system has a gully at each end, do NOT descend the one on the ..........". We looked at the next scrap of paper, but unfortunately this was for a descent off another hill. Doh..
Guess which gully we chose.
> you might wish you'd had a photocopy of the route description...
At least the cost and quality of photocopiers has gone the right way.
I was quite smug (in 1977) to have access to a (thermal paper ) office copier and duly copied the target Alpine routes for the season.
On the first route the copy got steadily fainter and we lost lines where the paper was creased.
Anyway , after a bit of guesswork we managed to get up and half way down the Cima Grande, the last words on the page were " this ledge system has a gully at each end, do NOT descend the one on the ..........". We looked at the next scrap of paper, but unfortunately this was for a descent off another hill. Doh..
Guess which gully we chose.
Post edited at 18:06
6
In reply to Offwidth:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-...
Many more where that came from.
Alan
> I know research engineers in these areas leading to the next generation stuff (and previously worked on the stuff that is new now) ... it is highly unlikely that there will be any significant improvements cf the best current phones in battery life or display power consumption in the next 5 years. Processing power and memory size will improve significantly.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-...
Many more where that came from.
Alan
1
In reply to jon:
I think those were copiers were the typewriter cut special paper and you could turn a handle to print inked copies. Very messy if you got the ink wrong. Horrible machines.
Of course not, but managed anyway
> Roneo...?
I think those were copiers were the typewriter cut special paper and you could turn a handle to print inked copies. Very messy if you got the ink wrong. Horrible machines.
> Clearly you chose the right end!
Of course not, but managed anyway
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Yep, know about all of those. Moore's Law in comparison means a pretty much guarenteed factor of 64 improvement in device capacity in the next decade. Its hard to understand the huge implications of what that processing power and storage capacity will bring. Think back a decade to get an idea. As a for instance a phone might be able to advise you through an earpiece as you climb, as it sits snuggly in your pocket.
Yep, know about all of those. Moore's Law in comparison means a pretty much guarenteed factor of 64 improvement in device capacity in the next decade. Its hard to understand the huge implications of what that processing power and storage capacity will bring. Think back a decade to get an idea. As a for instance a phone might be able to advise you through an earpiece as you climb, as it sits snuggly in your pocket.
Post edited at 21:23
In reply to Offwidth:
Or perhaps not!
http://www.nature.com/news/the-chips-are-down-for-moore-s-law-1.19338
> Yep, know about all of those. Moore's Law in comparison means a pretty much guarenteed factor of 64 improvement in device capacity in the next decade.
Or perhaps not!
http://www.nature.com/news/the-chips-are-down-for-moore-s-law-1.19338
In reply to MG:
Yes - I think the writing has been on the wall for a few years re Moor's Law,
Chris
> Or perhaps not!
Yes - I think the writing has been on the wall for a few years re Moor's Law,
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
What you are missing is that such articles have appeared all my working life and yet the empirical 'law' has remained. Even for this article, if you read the detail, the block point on processors comes in the early 2020's and for memory a good bit later (memory doesnt get so hot) so mass market phones in 2026 very likely remain on the Moore's law line.
You can also find pessimistic articles on the time it will take to get research based battery improvements into commercial mass market devices and even if we assume the best possible battery development and the worst possible semiconductor development the gulf in comparative improvement is still huge (which was my basic point at the start... think about what that extra processing power and memory might mean first).
What you are missing is that such articles have appeared all my working life and yet the empirical 'law' has remained. Even for this article, if you read the detail, the block point on processors comes in the early 2020's and for memory a good bit later (memory doesnt get so hot) so mass market phones in 2026 very likely remain on the Moore's law line.
You can also find pessimistic articles on the time it will take to get research based battery improvements into commercial mass market devices and even if we assume the best possible battery development and the worst possible semiconductor development the gulf in comparative improvement is still huge (which was my basic point at the start... think about what that extra processing power and memory might mean first).
Post edited at 09:43
In reply to Offwidth:
Maybe, maybe not.
I predict carrying a photocopy will still be a good idea.
> What you are missing is that such articles have appeared all my working life and yet the empirical 'law' has remained. Even for this article, if you read the detail, the block point on processors comes in the early 2020's and for memory a good bit later (memory doesnt get so hot) so mass market phones in 2026 very likely remain on the Moore's law line.
> You can also find pessimistic articles on the time it will take to get research based battery improvements into commercial mass market devices and even if we assume the best possible battery development and the worst possible semiconductor development the gulf in comparative improvement is still huge (which was my basic point at the start... think about what that extra processing power and memory might mean first).
Maybe, maybe not.
I predict carrying a photocopy will still be a good idea.
5
In reply to Rick Graham:
I carry a photocopy in a transparent freezer bag on most long routes, sometimes backed up on the camera. I also try and remember as much as I can of where the route goes, as things get dropped (or left behind) and always keep my climbing senses alert on route (descriptions are sometimes wrong). I have consistently found that I climb better and more enjoyably on long routes than say on an average day ticking single pitch where I'm much more laid back.
Onsight long adventure stuff, with focussed self reliance, hits the sweet spot for me and I think the future holds a few too many extra crutches that will almost certainly lead more folk into trouble. Everything I've learnt in climbing tells me focus is vital for best acheivement and for reducing risk.
I carry a photocopy in a transparent freezer bag on most long routes, sometimes backed up on the camera. I also try and remember as much as I can of where the route goes, as things get dropped (or left behind) and always keep my climbing senses alert on route (descriptions are sometimes wrong). I have consistently found that I climb better and more enjoyably on long routes than say on an average day ticking single pitch where I'm much more laid back.
Onsight long adventure stuff, with focussed self reliance, hits the sweet spot for me and I think the future holds a few too many extra crutches that will almost certainly lead more folk into trouble. Everything I've learnt in climbing tells me focus is vital for best acheivement and for reducing risk.
Post edited at 10:17
1
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