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Seeing as climbing fit, refers to exactly that, being fit in the specific areas you need to be, forearms, shoulders. Running/cycling has no effect then as mitochondria numbers remain the same in unused muscle mass?
Where does tendon strength come into play and do tendons lose strength if you built them up and then stopped climbing for a year?
Does stretching (note i mean proper stretching, not gym bunny 2sec stretch mode) have an effect on tendon/muscle strength and do you need to assume after some intensive stretching your tendons are weakend for any length of time. Any gains in stretching forearm muscles apart from injury prevention.
I'd assume shoulders reap a bigger reward by increasing mobility? Try doing a squat with a brook stick held directly above your head. (Overhead squat) nasty
Post edited at 19:16
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In reply to zimpara:
Hello. I'll try to help with some of these musings, where I can. I'm not really qualified to get detailed though.
Running and cycling will help climbing a lot by keeping bodyweight down and increasing cardiovascular fitness. The caveat to that statement is if you have limited time and choose to run rather than climb, while this is likely to keep you healthier, your climbing is likely to deteriorate.
By tendon strength I assume you mean the tendon's ability to withstand load without succumbing to injury? I can't really help in this one, sorry.
Regarding stretching, i read once in a Stevie Haston article that intensive stretching prior to training was not recommended, so my suspicion is that gentle, patient stretching after the initial warm-up period is recommended to improve circulation to hep avoid injury, while more 'intensive' stretching be left until the end of the session.
Hello. I'll try to help with some of these musings, where I can. I'm not really qualified to get detailed though.
Running and cycling will help climbing a lot by keeping bodyweight down and increasing cardiovascular fitness. The caveat to that statement is if you have limited time and choose to run rather than climb, while this is likely to keep you healthier, your climbing is likely to deteriorate.
By tendon strength I assume you mean the tendon's ability to withstand load without succumbing to injury? I can't really help in this one, sorry.
Regarding stretching, i read once in a Stevie Haston article that intensive stretching prior to training was not recommended, so my suspicion is that gentle, patient stretching after the initial warm-up period is recommended to improve circulation to hep avoid injury, while more 'intensive' stretching be left until the end of the session.
In reply to ehole:
I dont think running helps in any way other than keep weight down
When you have to rest on a small hold, you ain't using cardio to do so
I dont think running helps in any way other than keep weight down
When you have to rest on a small hold, you ain't using cardio to do so
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In reply to ashtond6:
gets you to the route first on those longer walk ins and avoids the need to queue.
> I dont think running helps in any way other than keep weight down
gets you to the route first on those longer walk ins and avoids the need to queue.
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In reply to zimpara:
Good CV fitness really helps. I've climbed in both states, fit and unfit over the years and it's much, much better when you're fit, everything is easier and you recover so much faster meaning marginal rests become exploitable. Hard climbing (at least to a grade most of us never get to) isn't just (or even much) about finger strength, you're doing a lot of work over many minutes, it's aerobic exercise. When fit you're also generally lighter reducing the workload which is another massive boon.
My fingers were probably at their strongest in my early twenties, I was climbing a lot and really not very hard but I was strong in a way I look back on now with dismay at the wasted opportunity. My hardest routes to date came a decade later, fit from running and climbing smarter, using my mind and my feet, experienced enough to not get hurt every few weeks. It's not all about the arms at the grades we're each interested in.
Stretching to increase flexibility is a massive help simply because you can reach, step on and exploit stuff you couldn't otherwise. Flexibility is the biggest thing I miss. I've never been naturally flexible so when I set out to develop it stretching for no more than an hour a week in front of the TV/radio in the evening the gains were quick and significant, suddenly I was getting up routes that had seemed imposssible, by being more flexible I could cope with being less strong, I was getting into more efficient positions and using holds I'd not have got to otherwise.
jk
Good CV fitness really helps. I've climbed in both states, fit and unfit over the years and it's much, much better when you're fit, everything is easier and you recover so much faster meaning marginal rests become exploitable. Hard climbing (at least to a grade most of us never get to) isn't just (or even much) about finger strength, you're doing a lot of work over many minutes, it's aerobic exercise. When fit you're also generally lighter reducing the workload which is another massive boon.
My fingers were probably at their strongest in my early twenties, I was climbing a lot and really not very hard but I was strong in a way I look back on now with dismay at the wasted opportunity. My hardest routes to date came a decade later, fit from running and climbing smarter, using my mind and my feet, experienced enough to not get hurt every few weeks. It's not all about the arms at the grades we're each interested in.
Stretching to increase flexibility is a massive help simply because you can reach, step on and exploit stuff you couldn't otherwise. Flexibility is the biggest thing I miss. I've never been naturally flexible so when I set out to develop it stretching for no more than an hour a week in front of the TV/radio in the evening the gains were quick and significant, suddenly I was getting up routes that had seemed imposssible, by being more flexible I could cope with being less strong, I was getting into more efficient positions and using holds I'd not have got to otherwise.
jk
Post edited at 22:17
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In reply to ashtond6:
'spose it all depends on what type of climbing you do.
I'm just a crap punter, but I've found my speed and stamina (and consequently, enjoyment) on long mountain routes has increased 10 fold since I started running longer distances. If anything it gives my arms a bit of a breather as my legs are doing more of the heavy lifting work. Everyone's different though.
'spose it all depends on what type of climbing you do.
I'm just a crap punter, but I've found my speed and stamina (and consequently, enjoyment) on long mountain routes has increased 10 fold since I started running longer distances. If anything it gives my arms a bit of a breather as my legs are doing more of the heavy lifting work. Everyone's different though.
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In reply to ehole:
Conversely, running and cycling will build muscle mass in your legs - you may in fact find that you put on weight where it is least useful from a sport climbing perspective.
That said, if you're in a position to seriously worry about body composition to this degree you probably know all this already.
> Running and cycling will help climbing a lot by keeping bodyweight down and increasing cardiovascular fitness.
Conversely, running and cycling will build muscle mass in your legs - you may in fact find that you put on weight where it is least useful from a sport climbing perspective.
That said, if you're in a position to seriously worry about body composition to this degree you probably know all this already.
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In reply to jkarran:
And you feel better.
You and me both.
Agree totally. I've got crap flexibility but train part of the time on stuff done by a very flexible international setter. With minimal footholds, you just have to be flexible to get past stopper moves. Which forces me towards flexibility. I suppose I should be grateful really.
Mick
> When fit you're also generally lighter reducing the workload which is another massive boon.
And you feel better.
> My fingers were probably at their strongest in my early twenties, I was climbing a lot and really not very hard but I was strong in a way I look back on now with dismay at the wasted opportunity.
You and me both.
> suddenly I was getting up routes that had seemed imposssible, by being more flexible I could cope with being less strong, I was getting into more efficient positions and using holds I'd not have got to otherwise.
Agree totally. I've got crap flexibility but train part of the time on stuff done by a very flexible international setter. With minimal footholds, you just have to be flexible to get past stopper moves. Which forces me towards flexibility. I suppose I should be grateful really.
Mick
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In reply to ashtond6:
I can't help but think that might need some cardio fitness to get to the small hold though. I know that on a recent project the hardest bit for me was not getting out of breath and generally knackered mid crux section. Upped my cardio from none to a bit of running and hey presto. Agree you probably don't need to be Mo Farah though.
> When you have to rest on a small hold, you ain't using cardio to do so
I can't help but think that might need some cardio fitness to get to the small hold though. I know that on a recent project the hardest bit for me was not getting out of breath and generally knackered mid crux section. Upped my cardio from none to a bit of running and hey presto. Agree you probably don't need to be Mo Farah though.
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In reply to jkarran:
This feels very familiar! If I'd known then what I know now...
> My fingers were probably at their strongest in my early twenties, I was climbing a lot and really not very hard but I was strong in a way I look back on now with dismay at the wasted opportunity.
This feels very familiar! If I'd known then what I know now...
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Not true unless you're running sprints. Compare Maurice Green, versus [insert any long distance runner] and the difference is clear. Running long distance is catabolic.
> Conversely, running and cycling will build muscle mass in your legs - you may in fact find that you put on weight where it is least useful from a sport climbing perspective.
Not true unless you're running sprints. Compare Maurice Green, versus [insert any long distance runner] and the difference is clear. Running long distance is catabolic.
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In reply to SenzuBean:
The type of running, or cycling, wasn't specified. In any case, it doesn't have to be a sprint to stimulate muscle growth. Elite long distance runners can have incredibly high aerobic thresholds, enabling them to use catabolic pathways to run at speeds that would leave lesser mortals rapidly out of breath. For the rest of us, a couple of uphill sections is all it takes to slip into anabolic metabolism and stimulate muscle growth.
Of course the odd uphill run now and then is not going to leave you with legs like Chris Hoy, but worth bearing in mind if you do this kind of thing a lot and are generally bothered about your body composition to this degree ( in which case, as I said, you probably know all of this already ).
> Not true unless you're running sprints. Compare Maurice Green, versus [insert any long distance runner] and the difference is clear. Running long distance is catabolic.
The type of running, or cycling, wasn't specified. In any case, it doesn't have to be a sprint to stimulate muscle growth. Elite long distance runners can have incredibly high aerobic thresholds, enabling them to use catabolic pathways to run at speeds that would leave lesser mortals rapidly out of breath. For the rest of us, a couple of uphill sections is all it takes to slip into anabolic metabolism and stimulate muscle growth.
Of course the odd uphill run now and then is not going to leave you with legs like Chris Hoy, but worth bearing in mind if you do this kind of thing a lot and are generally bothered about your body composition to this degree ( in which case, as I said, you probably know all of this already ).
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Wow, this seems to cover about 5 topics in one brain dump
Shoulders, based on doing both and experiencing a number of impingement issues over the years, benefit more from a balanced strengthening programme than from mobility (for which I read "stretching").
Consensus is to stretch after training, not before. And, while it's beneficial, and often good for state of mind as much as body, it's probably over-emphasised by many from a pure climbing standard perspective (mentioned by Dave Mac in 9/10 and also my personal observation).
On forearms, again some quick light stretching is fine, being careful not to force them too hard - but I prefer to spend my time there doing reverse wrist curls with light dumbells and pronators too to provide some antagonist balance.
A bit of running doesn't seem to hurt when you can't get to a wall. I tend to do 30-40 minute gentle runs between days of climbing training, or after climbing sessions, at an intensity where it doesn't impact my upper body strength the next day. Mainly I use it on days when it's that or no exercise; and when I'm getting four climbing sessions a week or more I often think the no exercise option might have been a better choice (more recovery)! Long ARC sessions, decent core training sessions, and antagonist weights, are all more helpful IMO.
Shoulders, based on doing both and experiencing a number of impingement issues over the years, benefit more from a balanced strengthening programme than from mobility (for which I read "stretching").
Consensus is to stretch after training, not before. And, while it's beneficial, and often good for state of mind as much as body, it's probably over-emphasised by many from a pure climbing standard perspective (mentioned by Dave Mac in 9/10 and also my personal observation).
On forearms, again some quick light stretching is fine, being careful not to force them too hard - but I prefer to spend my time there doing reverse wrist curls with light dumbells and pronators too to provide some antagonist balance.
A bit of running doesn't seem to hurt when you can't get to a wall. I tend to do 30-40 minute gentle runs between days of climbing training, or after climbing sessions, at an intensity where it doesn't impact my upper body strength the next day. Mainly I use it on days when it's that or no exercise; and when I'm getting four climbing sessions a week or more I often think the no exercise option might have been a better choice (more recovery)! Long ARC sessions, decent core training sessions, and antagonist weights, are all more helpful IMO.
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In reply to zimpara:
I would think that good core strength helps too. Without a good core, your body resembles two masses held together by a spring, wobbley. Improve your core and the spring becomes more like a rod, this should help with reaches on more vertical climbs and very useful where life becomes off vertical.
I would think that good core strength helps too. Without a good core, your body resembles two masses held together by a spring, wobbley. Improve your core and the spring becomes more like a rod, this should help with reaches on more vertical climbs and very useful where life becomes off vertical.
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In reply to zimpara:
In my experience, being cardio fit helps a lot with long routes where you need endurance. It helps you deal with the lactic a lot better.
Tendon strength is not to be confused with finger strength. Tendons are incredibly strong (even in un-fit people), in some cases much stronger than the tissue they connect to and it is this tissue that needs to get stronger to improve finger strength - i.e. muscles, bones and ligaments.
Flexibiltiy helps you to use the force produced by your muscles more efficiently by allowing the direction of the force to be at its optimum. Think about a column supporting a building, if the column is not vertical, it needs to be a lot stronger to support the same weight. I've seen flexible people who cannot do a pull up but can climb technically much harder than stronger and less flexible people.
In my experience, being cardio fit helps a lot with long routes where you need endurance. It helps you deal with the lactic a lot better.
Tendon strength is not to be confused with finger strength. Tendons are incredibly strong (even in un-fit people), in some cases much stronger than the tissue they connect to and it is this tissue that needs to get stronger to improve finger strength - i.e. muscles, bones and ligaments.
Flexibiltiy helps you to use the force produced by your muscles more efficiently by allowing the direction of the force to be at its optimum. Think about a column supporting a building, if the column is not vertical, it needs to be a lot stronger to support the same weight. I've seen flexible people who cannot do a pull up but can climb technically much harder than stronger and less flexible people.
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In reply to zimpara:
Good questions with some interesting answers. Don't understand why a post made up of questions is getting dislikes.
In terms of the title: Climbing is nearly absolute forearms, I'd say that is true on less steep stuff, close to vertical, but core, arms and shoulders play a bigger role the steeper the climbing.
Good questions with some interesting answers. Don't understand why a post made up of questions is getting dislikes.
In terms of the title: Climbing is nearly absolute forearms, I'd say that is true on less steep stuff, close to vertical, but core, arms and shoulders play a bigger role the steeper the climbing.
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In reply to zimpara:
Am I misunderstanding most of the posts on here or are people genuinely claiming that being fit cardio wise is more useful than having strong fingers. Yes if you are climbing at a very low grade then improved cardio will be beneficial but for anyone even operating in the low 6's you would see a far greater benefit from any improvement in finger strength than cardio.
Yes if you are a dumpling then losing weight will make you better but that's nothing to do with cardio, that's simply reducing the amount of weight you are bearing on your fingers, allowing you to get closer to the wall and due to the reduced workload you will tire less.
The best climbers are pretty much made of 3 things. Strong fingers, strong core and low body weight. They are not cardio beasts. Even the top route climbers are not cardio monsters compared to endurance athletes in other sports.
Am I misunderstanding most of the posts on here or are people genuinely claiming that being fit cardio wise is more useful than having strong fingers. Yes if you are climbing at a very low grade then improved cardio will be beneficial but for anyone even operating in the low 6's you would see a far greater benefit from any improvement in finger strength than cardio.
Yes if you are a dumpling then losing weight will make you better but that's nothing to do with cardio, that's simply reducing the amount of weight you are bearing on your fingers, allowing you to get closer to the wall and due to the reduced workload you will tire less.
The best climbers are pretty much made of 3 things. Strong fingers, strong core and low body weight. They are not cardio beasts. Even the top route climbers are not cardio monsters compared to endurance athletes in other sports.
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In reply to mctrials23:
If this is aimed at my post, then of course it isn't. I already have strong(ish) fingers. In my own case my main weakness was general overall fitness not finger strength. My point was that if you have rubbish cardio fitness then being a 'strong' climber will only get you so far. At least this was the case for me.
> Am I misunderstanding most of the posts on here or are people genuinely claiming that being fit cardio wise is more useful than having strong fingers.
If this is aimed at my post, then of course it isn't. I already have strong(ish) fingers. In my own case my main weakness was general overall fitness not finger strength. My point was that if you have rubbish cardio fitness then being a 'strong' climber will only get you so far. At least this was the case for me.
In reply to zimpara:
I've always been of the opinion, that when it comes too pure rock climbing - trad & sport (as opposed to all round - including alpine etc) the 2 most important things needed to be good and climb hard, are..
Strong fingers and forearms
Strong head
Sure, good technical skills, balance, footwork, flexibility, core strength and cardiovascular are also important, but without strong fingers and forearms, and a good head, you're only going to get so far.
Put it this way, I've never known anyone to climb hard without strong fingers and forearms.
I've always been of the opinion, that when it comes too pure rock climbing - trad & sport (as opposed to all round - including alpine etc) the 2 most important things needed to be good and climb hard, are..
Strong fingers and forearms
Strong head
Sure, good technical skills, balance, footwork, flexibility, core strength and cardiovascular are also important, but without strong fingers and forearms, and a good head, you're only going to get so far.
Put it this way, I've never known anyone to climb hard without strong fingers and forearms.
In reply to mctrials23:
I have pretty weak fingers (by climber standards) these days and they're injury prone. I definitely made my biggest gains by getting fit, flexible and most importantly, climbing smarter and that was in the high 7s, not the low 6s. I can only think of a small handful of routes I've given up on because my fingers weren't up to the task.
Yeah you need strong (by normal person standards) fingers to climb 'hard' and finger strength is undoubtedly one of the major things that separates the truly elite from the rest but it doesn't have to be the difference between 6a and 8a, that's in your mind as much as your forearms.
jk
> Am I misunderstanding most of the posts on here or are people genuinely claiming that being fit cardio wise is more useful than having strong fingers. Yes if you are climbing at a very low grade then improved cardio will be beneficial but for anyone even operating in the low 6's you would see a far greater benefit from any improvement in finger strength than cardio.
I have pretty weak fingers (by climber standards) these days and they're injury prone. I definitely made my biggest gains by getting fit, flexible and most importantly, climbing smarter and that was in the high 7s, not the low 6s. I can only think of a small handful of routes I've given up on because my fingers weren't up to the task.
Yeah you need strong (by normal person standards) fingers to climb 'hard' and finger strength is undoubtedly one of the major things that separates the truly elite from the rest but it doesn't have to be the difference between 6a and 8a, that's in your mind as much as your forearms.
jk
Post edited at 10:01
In reply to Willi Crater:
fair enough if it works for you, & I agree it does help to have a bit of general fitness
But I really don't see it, strong fingers & ability to rest etc is just so much more important.
Imo its a totally different work out to cardio (I guess depending on your style), plus route length.
fair enough if it works for you, & I agree it does help to have a bit of general fitness
But I really don't see it, strong fingers & ability to rest etc is just so much more important.
Imo its a totally different work out to cardio (I guess depending on your style), plus route length.
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In reply to ashtond6:
Well, I'm not disagreeing as such. I think you are reading something into my posts that I didn't intend. Probably my fault for failing to express myself accurately.
> But I really don't see it, strong fingers & ability to rest etc is just so much more important.
Well, I'm not disagreeing as such. I think you are reading something into my posts that I didn't intend. Probably my fault for failing to express myself accurately.
In reply to jkarran:
Are you talking route grades here?
I have never seen anyone climb high 7s in font grading who doesn't have strong fingers. Routes are a different matter because a really long 7c route might only have font 6a/b moves in it. If you can't hold the holds you can't do a problem.
If you have only given up on a few routes because your fingers weren't strong enough then I'm confused... If you are trying routes at your limit then your fingers will be the limiting factor a huge amount of the time. Being fitter, more flexible, better technically may all help but if your fingers were strong enough then most of the time that other stuff won't matter.
The less endurance based the route is, the stronger your fingers will need to be. If you can show me someone doing an 8a route who hasn't got strong finger (not an 80m pump fest) who can't boulder reasonably hard I will be impressed.
Are you talking route grades here?
I have never seen anyone climb high 7s in font grading who doesn't have strong fingers. Routes are a different matter because a really long 7c route might only have font 6a/b moves in it. If you can't hold the holds you can't do a problem.
If you have only given up on a few routes because your fingers weren't strong enough then I'm confused... If you are trying routes at your limit then your fingers will be the limiting factor a huge amount of the time. Being fitter, more flexible, better technically may all help but if your fingers were strong enough then most of the time that other stuff won't matter.
The less endurance based the route is, the stronger your fingers will need to be. If you can show me someone doing an 8a route who hasn't got strong finger (not an 80m pump fest) who can't boulder reasonably hard I will be impressed.
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In reply to mctrials23:
AY, Yorkshire sport mostly but a bit overseas too. Generally 15-20m routes, nothing steep, nothing slabby.
What can I tell you, that's my experience.
Angel Heart (7c+) Springs to mind as the only route in recent years I'v put some effort into then walked away from because I felt my fingers weren't up to it rather than my fitness letting me down. As you can see if you care to I've failed to tick a few others on that wall over the years but all those I've tried I've done all the moves, I just got out of puff linking them or ran out of motivation/season. Over the years there have been others where I just couldn't do a stopper move but they're few and far between (and often foot not finger related). Clearly that reflects on my crag/route choice but it is a true reflection of my climbing experience.
I never got to 8 but as far as I got (7c IIRC) I never really felt held back by my creaky fingers or modest bouldering prowess (anything above V4 was very rare or reflected a lot of work). Then again, some of our confusion probably hinges on what we each considers 'hard' and 'strong'.
jk
> Are you talking route grades here?
> I have never seen anyone climb high 7s in font grading who doesn't have strong fingers. Routes are a different matter because a really long 7c route might only have font 6a/b moves in it. If you can't hold the holds you can't do a problem.
> I have never seen anyone climb high 7s in font grading who doesn't have strong fingers. Routes are a different matter because a really long 7c route might only have font 6a/b moves in it. If you can't hold the holds you can't do a problem.
AY, Yorkshire sport mostly but a bit overseas too. Generally 15-20m routes, nothing steep, nothing slabby.
> If you have only given up on a few routes because your fingers weren't strong enough then I'm confused... If you are trying routes at your limit then your fingers will be the limiting factor a huge amount of the time. Being fitter, more flexible, better technically may all help but if your fingers were strong enough then most of the time that other stuff won't matter.
What can I tell you, that's my experience.
Angel Heart (7c+) Springs to mind as the only route in recent years I'v put some effort into then walked away from because I felt my fingers weren't up to it rather than my fitness letting me down. As you can see if you care to I've failed to tick a few others on that wall over the years but all those I've tried I've done all the moves, I just got out of puff linking them or ran out of motivation/season. Over the years there have been others where I just couldn't do a stopper move but they're few and far between (and often foot not finger related). Clearly that reflects on my crag/route choice but it is a true reflection of my climbing experience.
> The less endurance based the route is, the stronger your fingers will need to be. If you can show me someone doing an 8a route who hasn't got strong finger (not an 80m pump fest) who can't boulder reasonably hard I will be impressed.
I never got to 8 but as far as I got (7c IIRC) I never really felt held back by my creaky fingers or modest bouldering prowess (anything above V4 was very rare or reflected a lot of work). Then again, some of our confusion probably hinges on what we each considers 'hard' and 'strong'.
jk
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In reply to mctrials23:
Trust me: JK has little girls fingers, if only I could get the hours back I've listened to him moaning about them...
I always had strong fingers but it didn't let me climb harder than him. He will be along with a suitably disparaging reason as to why that was shortly.
> I have never seen anyone climb high 7s in font grading who doesn't have strong fingers. Routes are a different matter because a really long 7c route might only have font 6a/b moves in it. If you can't hold the holds you can't do a problem.
Trust me: JK has little girls fingers, if only I could get the hours back I've listened to him moaning about them...
I always had strong fingers but it didn't let me climb harder than him. He will be along with a suitably disparaging reason as to why that was shortly.
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In reply to mctrials23:
Maybe it's my weakness, but I've found the hardest moves seem to be where I struggle to lock off, not where my fingers uncurl or can't hold on.
> If you are trying routes at your limit then your fingers will be the limiting factor a huge amount of the time.
Maybe it's my weakness, but I've found the hardest moves seem to be where I struggle to lock off, not where my fingers uncurl or can't hold on.
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