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I have been following the Lustig inspired debate (and cut my own sugar consumption to boot) and was vaguely aware of Yudkin but not some of the earlier studies. Interesting comment on conventional wisdom and scientific advancement:
"The rise and slow fall of cholesterol’s infamy is a case in point. After it was discovered inside the arteries of men who had suffered heart attacks, public health officials, advised by scientists, put eggs, whose yolks are rich in cholesterol, on the danger list. But it is a biological error to confuse what a person puts in their mouth with what it becomes after it is swallowed. The human body, far from being a passive vessel for whatever we choose to fill it with, is a busy chemical plant, transforming and redistributing the energy it receives. Its governing principle is homeostasis, or the maintenance of energy equilibrium (when exercise heats us up, sweat cools us down). Cholesterol, present in all of our cells, is created by the liver. Biochemists had long known that the more cholesterol you eat, the less your liver produces."
"A scientist is part of what the Polish philosopher of science Ludwik Fleck called a “thought collective”: a group of people exchanging ideas in a mutually comprehensible idiom. The group, suggested Fleck, inevitably develops a mind of its own, as the individuals in it converge on a way of communicating, thinking and feeling."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-...
"The rise and slow fall of cholesterol’s infamy is a case in point. After it was discovered inside the arteries of men who had suffered heart attacks, public health officials, advised by scientists, put eggs, whose yolks are rich in cholesterol, on the danger list. But it is a biological error to confuse what a person puts in their mouth with what it becomes after it is swallowed. The human body, far from being a passive vessel for whatever we choose to fill it with, is a busy chemical plant, transforming and redistributing the energy it receives. Its governing principle is homeostasis, or the maintenance of energy equilibrium (when exercise heats us up, sweat cools us down). Cholesterol, present in all of our cells, is created by the liver. Biochemists had long known that the more cholesterol you eat, the less your liver produces."
"A scientist is part of what the Polish philosopher of science Ludwik Fleck called a “thought collective”: a group of people exchanging ideas in a mutually comprehensible idiom. The group, suggested Fleck, inevitably develops a mind of its own, as the individuals in it converge on a way of communicating, thinking and feeling."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-...
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In reply to Morgan Woods:
this is a good talk
youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM&
and pure white and deadly is a good read
this is a good talk
youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM&
and pure white and deadly is a good read
In reply to Morgan Woods:
I guess its good to have scientific proof for the rights and wrongs but from the stone-age perspective this result was already evident. Any foodstuff which has been overly extracted, concentrated or processed yields a product likely unfit for consumption.
I was raised on the preachings of Yudkin but sadly regret the many teenage years spent squandering my health before I took self responsibility. Since which, I note repeatedly that sugar is the single most injurious element in my diet.
I guess its good to have scientific proof for the rights and wrongs but from the stone-age perspective this result was already evident. Any foodstuff which has been overly extracted, concentrated or processed yields a product likely unfit for consumption.
I was raised on the preachings of Yudkin but sadly regret the many teenage years spent squandering my health before I took self responsibility. Since which, I note repeatedly that sugar is the single most injurious element in my diet.
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In reply to LeeWood:
I note repeatedly that sugar is the single most injurious element in my diet.
not sure if it is for me it maybe dairy . however sugar is something I seem to be addicted to.
If any one has any brainy ides how to get overcome a sugar craving / addiction do say. sugar users anonymous
I note repeatedly that sugar is the single most injurious element in my diet.
not sure if it is for me it maybe dairy . however sugar is something I seem to be addicted to.
If any one has any brainy ides how to get overcome a sugar craving / addiction do say. sugar users anonymous
2
In reply to Morgan Woods:
We've just finished a six month stint of caring for my sick, elderly MIL, which has been interesting. She was brought up on a farm in Shropshire and would have spent her early years working hard to raise animals and grow crops then storing and preserving the food for the winter months. Then in the 60s along came factory processed food, starting, my wife says, with Vesta freeze-dried curries. Suddenly here was something you could buy from a shop, add water and enjoy the calorie hit. The family became big consumers of processed food and my MIL has been overweight ever since I first knew her 20 years ago. During her recent stay at our house she did nothing but eat calorie-dense food; she would lie in her recliner all day and munch steadily through a packet of biscuits or in two days a large tin of Quality Street. Admittedly she was on high doses of steroids, which increase appetite, but it's been astonishing to see how she loves fats, sugar and carbs. We've discussed it many times and concluded that ready availability and economy of effort are what drives the craving, which never went away.
We've just finished a six month stint of caring for my sick, elderly MIL, which has been interesting. She was brought up on a farm in Shropshire and would have spent her early years working hard to raise animals and grow crops then storing and preserving the food for the winter months. Then in the 60s along came factory processed food, starting, my wife says, with Vesta freeze-dried curries. Suddenly here was something you could buy from a shop, add water and enjoy the calorie hit. The family became big consumers of processed food and my MIL has been overweight ever since I first knew her 20 years ago. During her recent stay at our house she did nothing but eat calorie-dense food; she would lie in her recliner all day and munch steadily through a packet of biscuits or in two days a large tin of Quality Street. Admittedly she was on high doses of steroids, which increase appetite, but it's been astonishing to see how she loves fats, sugar and carbs. We've discussed it many times and concluded that ready availability and economy of effort are what drives the craving, which never went away.
Post edited at 17:13
In reply to Name Changed 34:
I'm also on that wagon. The only things I've learned from years of trying hard:
1) Keeping stress free, well-rested, exercised and healthy is essential to having strong willpower. If I let any of these lapse (miss a few too many hours sleep, get too stressed, stop exercising for because work gets in the way) - I'll usually do something stupid.
2) As a "management" rule - I've found that I can stick to a "one sweet thing per day" rule for relatively long periods of time. As soon as I've had my sweet, I know that the next one is only 24 hours away - and usually I can manage that. Usually it's a tiny chocolate bar with a morning coffee for breakfast.
3) Have a "not before you eat an apple" rule. Every time I want to eat something sweet, I have to eat an apple first. You usually get full much quicker, or even straight away and don't need any or as much sweet stuff. You might get so sick of apples you give up on sweet things all together, until you eventually cave (sugar really does sound like a hardcore drug addiction when you write it down like this...)
4) Have a burning goal in mind. For example let's say it's a particular route (not now, but in a few months hopefully I'll be good enough to start eyeing up Cemetary gates - and then i'll be my motivation for a few months) - or maybe you're single and want to meet a nice lady/man. Think about it all day long, and how staying trim you're that much more likely to get what you're after.
> If any one has any brainy ides how to get overcome a sugar craving / addiction do say. sugar users anonymous
I'm also on that wagon. The only things I've learned from years of trying hard:
1) Keeping stress free, well-rested, exercised and healthy is essential to having strong willpower. If I let any of these lapse (miss a few too many hours sleep, get too stressed, stop exercising for because work gets in the way) - I'll usually do something stupid.
2) As a "management" rule - I've found that I can stick to a "one sweet thing per day" rule for relatively long periods of time. As soon as I've had my sweet, I know that the next one is only 24 hours away - and usually I can manage that. Usually it's a tiny chocolate bar with a morning coffee for breakfast.
3) Have a "not before you eat an apple" rule. Every time I want to eat something sweet, I have to eat an apple first. You usually get full much quicker, or even straight away and don't need any or as much sweet stuff. You might get so sick of apples you give up on sweet things all together, until you eventually cave (sugar really does sound like a hardcore drug addiction when you write it down like this...)
4) Have a burning goal in mind. For example let's say it's a particular route (not now, but in a few months hopefully I'll be good enough to start eyeing up Cemetary gates - and then i'll be my motivation for a few months) - or maybe you're single and want to meet a nice lady/man. Think about it all day long, and how staying trim you're that much more likely to get what you're after.
Post edited at 17:19
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In reply to Rigid Raider:
>. We've discussed it many times and concluded that ready availability and economy of effort are what drives the craving, which never went away.
heard or read from some science sources that unlike starchy carbs, proteins, fats... the human body doesn't trigger any chemical reaction with refined sugars when eating them, even large amounts, so the brain doesn't tell the hand to stop feeding the mouth, there is no contentment, only more desire.
The only solution would appear sheer will power from knowing what is best for your body.
>. We've discussed it many times and concluded that ready availability and economy of effort are what drives the craving, which never went away.
heard or read from some science sources that unlike starchy carbs, proteins, fats... the human body doesn't trigger any chemical reaction with refined sugars when eating them, even large amounts, so the brain doesn't tell the hand to stop feeding the mouth, there is no contentment, only more desire.
The only solution would appear sheer will power from knowing what is best for your body.
In reply to Name Changed 34:
Massive line of coke.
> If any one has any brainy ides how to get overcome a sugar craving / addiction do say. sugar users anonymous
Massive line of coke.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Sugar's too powerful: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/connie-bennett/the-rats-who-preferred-su_b_71...
> Massive line of coke.
Sugar's too powerful: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/connie-bennett/the-rats-who-preferred-su_b_71...
In reply to SenzuBean:
I'm not certain the mechanism of addiction in rats and humans is the same. Rats like a lot of stuff that I'm not terribly keen on.
I'm not doubting that some people crave sugary foods, but I find all the talk of 'poison' and 'addiction' somewhat over the top. People who have suffered addiction or been poisoned might feel that their experiences are being trivialised...
I'm not certain the mechanism of addiction in rats and humans is the same. Rats like a lot of stuff that I'm not terribly keen on.
I'm not doubting that some people crave sugary foods, but I find all the talk of 'poison' and 'addiction' somewhat over the top. People who have suffered addiction or been poisoned might feel that their experiences are being trivialised...
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Sugar addiction in humans is very much a real phenomenon - there's no doubt about that. I don't think it's trivializing anyone else's addiction. Nobody says that a marijuana addiction trivializes an alcohol one - a chronic pot smoker won't die if marijuana is ceased, whereas if a chronic alcoholic ceases alcohol there's a good change they will be dead in a few days from delirium tremens.
The marijuana addiction may not be as life-threatening, but it's the compulsive behavior - and more importantly, the other behaviors (hygiene, social interaction, exercise) they cease - that define an addiction.
> I'm not certain the mechanism of addiction in rats and humans is the same. Rats like a lot of stuff that I'm not terribly keen on.
> I'm not doubting that some people crave sugary foods, but I find all the talk of 'poison' and 'addiction' somewhat over the top. People who have suffered addiction or been poisoned might feel that their experiences are being trivialised...
Sugar addiction in humans is very much a real phenomenon - there's no doubt about that. I don't think it's trivializing anyone else's addiction. Nobody says that a marijuana addiction trivializes an alcohol one - a chronic pot smoker won't die if marijuana is ceased, whereas if a chronic alcoholic ceases alcohol there's a good change they will be dead in a few days from delirium tremens.
The marijuana addiction may not be as life-threatening, but it's the compulsive behavior - and more importantly, the other behaviors (hygiene, social interaction, exercise) they cease - that define an addiction.
Post edited at 17:42
In reply to SenzuBean:
The thing about addiction to cocaine, alcohol and marijuana (or any other substance) is that it frequently really threatens people's relationships, jobs and whole lives. These substances can suck people's lives down the toilet when taking it for fun - social behaviour - turns into a need to have the substance in order to feel normal. That's not really the case with sugar, which might well cause some compulsive behaviour, but it's not fair to describe it in the same terms as drug addiction.
The thing about addiction to cocaine, alcohol and marijuana (or any other substance) is that it frequently really threatens people's relationships, jobs and whole lives. These substances can suck people's lives down the toilet when taking it for fun - social behaviour - turns into a need to have the substance in order to feel normal. That's not really the case with sugar, which might well cause some compulsive behaviour, but it's not fair to describe it in the same terms as drug addiction.
1
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Really? I thought research now indicated sugar had worse addictive qualities than quite a few classified drugs and a massively more significant total health cost impact in the UK than anything other than maybe alcohol.
Really? I thought research now indicated sugar had worse addictive qualities than quite a few classified drugs and a massively more significant total health cost impact in the UK than anything other than maybe alcohol.
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In reply to SenzuBean:
When I kicking the drink, Bitter was 45p mild 43p cider Guinnes 50p and larger 48p per pint. once done it was months before the yearning passed, but drink and all the social side to it are calling you back to the bar. sugar has not got this, I can only concluded its a; harder and more addictive. b; I have lees will power.
It is tough, you know you filled the slow cooker that morning it will be reedy as you get in. You also know you need petrol on the way home and the kiosk is full of sugar, ---------- pay at the pump --------- is the way out, will power needed.
I like this, trying it! Ta
I like 4 also, However the mintcake was eaten somewhere between buying it in llanberis and the lay-by
note; never a missive drinker, just I could see where it was going, had job in a pub, and drink was going to steel my life.
> I'm also on that wagon. The only things I've learned from years of trying hard:<
When I kicking the drink, Bitter was 45p mild 43p cider Guinnes 50p and larger 48p per pint. once done it was months before the yearning passed, but drink and all the social side to it are calling you back to the bar. sugar has not got this, I can only concluded its a; harder and more addictive. b; I have lees will power.
It is tough, you know you filled the slow cooker that morning it will be reedy as you get in. You also know you need petrol on the way home and the kiosk is full of sugar, ---------- pay at the pump --------- is the way out, will power needed.
> 3) Have a "not before you eat an apple" rule. Every time I want to eat something sweet, I have to eat an apple first. You usually get full much quicker, or even straight away and don't need any or as much sweet stuff. You might get so sick of apples you give up on sweet things all together, until you eventually cave (sugar really does sound like a hardcore drug addiction when you write it down like this...)<
I like this, trying it! Ta
I like 4 also, However the mintcake was eaten somewhere between buying it in llanberis and the lay-by
note; never a missive drinker, just I could see where it was going, had job in a pub, and drink was going to steel my life.
In reply to Offwidth:
Very controversial.
In rats:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763407000589
In people:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561409002398
Just the top couple of links.
> Really? I thought research now indicated sugar had worse addictive qualities than quite a few classified drugs and a massively more significant total health cost impact in the UK than anything other than maybe alcohol.
Very controversial.
In rats:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763407000589
In people:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561409002398
Just the top couple of links.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
lets say sugar is a free drug - we can have as much as we like, its legal, easily available to find, cheep, not dissimilar to TV. the internet, twiter, faceake UKC. and let's not forget Coffee. all of which can be addictive, but do not tangible destroy life.
Then we have cocaine, alcohol and marijuana ect. that can suck life down the pan.
Two different outcomes, but only one addiction.
in my view Sugar can really threatens people's whole lives
Massive line of coke. ----------------if I new how to smiley face I would
> The thing about addiction to cocaine, alcohol and marijuana (or any other substance) is that it frequently really threatens people's relationships, jobs and whole lives. These substances can suck people's lives down the toilet when taking it for fun - social behaviour - turns into a need to have the substance in order to feel normal. That's not really the case with sugar, which might well cause some compulsive behaviour, but it's not fair to describe it in the same terms as drug addiction.
lets say sugar is a free drug - we can have as much as we like, its legal, easily available to find, cheep, not dissimilar to TV. the internet, twiter, faceake UKC. and let's not forget Coffee. all of which can be addictive, but do not tangible destroy life.
Then we have cocaine, alcohol and marijuana ect. that can suck life down the pan.
Two different outcomes, but only one addiction.
in my view Sugar can really threatens people's whole lives
Massive line of coke. ----------------if I new how to smiley face I would
Post edited at 19:48
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In reply to Morgan Woods:
Lustig has some interesting things to say but is guilty of fructose alarmism.
http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-al...
Lustig has some interesting things to say but is guilty of fructose alarmism.
http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-al...
In reply to Morgan Woods:
There are plenty educated people in healthcare think that diabetes will break many healthcare systems around the world. Alcohol has tried in the UK, perhaps sugar will tip it over. Diabetes already accounts for a large proportion of their budget.
There are plenty educated people in healthcare think that diabetes will break many healthcare systems around the world. Alcohol has tried in the UK, perhaps sugar will tip it over. Diabetes already accounts for a large proportion of their budget.
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I thought you are normally pretty switched on, knowledgeable and all for public liberty?
Marijuana very rarely threatens people's relationships and job and never whole life. Even alcohol (which would be given class B if re-classified as a new substance) - you'd be hard pressed to say that you could describe its ruinous qualities as "frequent" (I'd say the vast majority of alcohol drinkers are able to hold down a job, keep their friends and stay alive.).
Cocaine also gets rather a bad rap for what it is - it's really no worse (apart from its supply channel funding gang activity) than methylphenidate - something an increasingly large percentage of parents feed to their hapless children on a daily basis.
Similarly - maybe you haven't seen an elderly diabetic - whose body is literally rotting from the feet up because of their inability to stop redlining on sugar (google diabetic + feet if you're feeling brave). Or the fact they're dissolving their teeth in a bacterial acid bath every day until there's nowt left? Is that not a dangerous consequence of addiction?
> The thing about addiction to cocaine, alcohol and marijuana (or any other substance) is that it frequently really threatens people's relationships, jobs and whole lives.
I thought you are normally pretty switched on, knowledgeable and all for public liberty?
Marijuana very rarely threatens people's relationships and job and never whole life. Even alcohol (which would be given class B if re-classified as a new substance) - you'd be hard pressed to say that you could describe its ruinous qualities as "frequent" (I'd say the vast majority of alcohol drinkers are able to hold down a job, keep their friends and stay alive.).
Cocaine also gets rather a bad rap for what it is - it's really no worse (apart from its supply channel funding gang activity) than methylphenidate - something an increasingly large percentage of parents feed to their hapless children on a daily basis.
Similarly - maybe you haven't seen an elderly diabetic - whose body is literally rotting from the feet up because of their inability to stop redlining on sugar (google diabetic + feet if you're feeling brave). Or the fact they're dissolving their teeth in a bacterial acid bath every day until there's nowt left? Is that not a dangerous consequence of addiction?
Post edited at 10:23
In reply to Shani:
Superb data there. In particular the daily calorie intake has increased from 2172 to 2775. All things being equal (they're not because we are a complex biomechanical organism and not a machine), that would lead to an increase of 1.2lbs every week.
I think the point that sugar has replaced fat as the demon is ignoring the elephant in the room.
Diabetes? I'm convinced that as you put weight on your blood volume increases. However your pancreas doesn't increase in size (unless anyone knows differently) it gets to a point where it just can't deliver enough insulin.
I think there are other things going on with sugar spiking and crashing but think they're an aside and not the main cause.
I'm not a doctor or medical research scientist just have been following this very closely.
> Lustig has some interesting things to say but is guilty of fructose alarmism.
Superb data there. In particular the daily calorie intake has increased from 2172 to 2775. All things being equal (they're not because we are a complex biomechanical organism and not a machine), that would lead to an increase of 1.2lbs every week.
I think the point that sugar has replaced fat as the demon is ignoring the elephant in the room.
Diabetes? I'm convinced that as you put weight on your blood volume increases. However your pancreas doesn't increase in size (unless anyone knows differently) it gets to a point where it just can't deliver enough insulin.
I think there are other things going on with sugar spiking and crashing but think they're an aside and not the main cause.
I'm not a doctor or medical research scientist just have been following this very closely.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I wonder if you're blurring use, misuse and addiction/dependence a bit here though. I didn't get the impression that Jon was arguing that sugar is not a potentially harmful substance - just that it may not be addictive in specifically the same way that other substances are known to be.
I wonder if you're blurring use, misuse and addiction/dependence a bit here though. I didn't get the impression that Jon was arguing that sugar is not a potentially harmful substance - just that it may not be addictive in specifically the same way that other substances are known to be.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I am I think all drugs should be legalised and I'm well aware that most people who drink, smoke spliffs and do the odd line come to no harm. All the same, some people - for whatever reason (personality/circumstances) - become alcoholics, stoners and cokeheads, and the reality addiction is pretty grim.
I know what you're saying, but I think as a drug it's easily underestimated. Full-on stoners who smoke heavily every day are in a pretty bad place IMO.
Yes, it's a very small proportion of drinkers who are problem drinkers, and fewer still who are alcoholics. But it's a bloody awful drug if you do end up in that place.
Hmmmm. The kids have to crush down the Ritalin tablets and snort them if they want to get a buzz (and some do!). If people did coke in time-release tablets to provide a bit of a pick-me-up then it wouldn't be so compulsive and harmful. Chewing coca leaves like the rural folk of the Andes do is one thing, but staying up all night doing lines, and then carrying on during the day because you've had no sleep, as a cokeheads do, is quite another, and is not good for you. It's bloody awful for your heart, as well as your brain. It's not a very forgiving drug once it goes from occasional use to being an integral part of your social life.
I see a lot of diabetics at work, every day. While I mostly blame their diet lifestyle, I don't think they're victims of addiction to a drug. They're not. As I said, while I don't doubt that sugar can be linked to compulsive behaviour, it isn't a drug, it's a carbohydrate.
> I thought you are normally pretty switched on, knowledgeable and all for public liberty?
I am I think all drugs should be legalised and I'm well aware that most people who drink, smoke spliffs and do the odd line come to no harm. All the same, some people - for whatever reason (personality/circumstances) - become alcoholics, stoners and cokeheads, and the reality addiction is pretty grim.
> Marijuana very rarely threatens people's relationships and job and never whole life.
I know what you're saying, but I think as a drug it's easily underestimated. Full-on stoners who smoke heavily every day are in a pretty bad place IMO.
> Even alcohol (which would be given class B if re-classified as a new substance) - you'd be hard pressed to say that you could describe its ruinous qualities as "frequent" (I'd say the vast majority of alcohol drinkers are able to hold down a job, keep their friends and stay alive.).
Yes, it's a very small proportion of drinkers who are problem drinkers, and fewer still who are alcoholics. But it's a bloody awful drug if you do end up in that place.
> Cocaine also gets rather a bad rap for what it is - it's really no worse (apart from its supply channel funding gang activity) than methylphenidate - something an increasingly large percentage of parents feed to their hapless children on a daily basis.
Hmmmm. The kids have to crush down the Ritalin tablets and snort them if they want to get a buzz (and some do!). If people did coke in time-release tablets to provide a bit of a pick-me-up then it wouldn't be so compulsive and harmful. Chewing coca leaves like the rural folk of the Andes do is one thing, but staying up all night doing lines, and then carrying on during the day because you've had no sleep, as a cokeheads do, is quite another, and is not good for you. It's bloody awful for your heart, as well as your brain. It's not a very forgiving drug once it goes from occasional use to being an integral part of your social life.
> Similarly - maybe you haven't seen an elderly diabetic - whose body is literally rotting from the feet up because of their inability to stop redlining on sugar (google diabetic + feet if you're feeling brave). Or the fact they're dissolving their teeth in a bacterial acid bath every day until there's nowt left? Is that not a dangerous consequence of addiction?
I see a lot of diabetics at work, every day. While I mostly blame their diet lifestyle, I don't think they're victims of addiction to a drug. They're not. As I said, while I don't doubt that sugar can be linked to compulsive behaviour, it isn't a drug, it's a carbohydrate.
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