UKC

Vegans live longer and age slower!

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 DWS gibraltar 08 Apr 2016
In reply to RobOggie:

I watched a program last night on aging and as it turns out vegans live longer and age slower than meet eaters (which I am one)at the end of the show I was actually considering trying a vegan diet as it might pre long the time I have left to climb!Apparenty animal protein while been good for growing children after a certain age our bodies stop producing growth hormone and eating animal protein speeds up aging!
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 gethin_allen 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Vegans may well live longer but that just extends the torture.
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In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Not if I eat them first
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OP DWS gibraltar 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Name Changed 34 If I give it a go I'm obviously going to keep it on the QT
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 Goucho 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> I watched a program last night on aging and as it turns out vegans live longer and age slower than meet eaters (which I am one)at the end of the show I was actually considering trying a vegan diet as it might pre long the time I have left to climb!Apparenty animal protein while been good for growing children after a certain age our bodies stop producing growth hormone and eating animal protein speeds up aging!

Yeah, but they still make accountants seem interesting by comparison.

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 Oceanrower 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Show me a bloke who say's he's a vegan and I'll show you a bloke trying to shag a vegan.....
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OP DWS gibraltar 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho. But if becoming a vegan meant it would give you 10 years of extra climbing what then?


 Offwidth 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

There is no clear evidence that I've seen over the years. Of the major vegetarian studies there are varied results including one from Austria showing vegetarians fare slightly worse and various US studies showing significant improvements but americans on average have terrible diets and the group with the biggest improvements (7th day adventists) had much better diets than the US average. Vegans need to be compared with a similar control group (that for instance are equally health conscious).
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 Offwidth 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:
Hard to believe such offensive crap got 8 likes.
Post edited at 19:47
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 digby 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> I watched a program last night...

Definitive proof of most things!
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 Goucho 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

> Hard to believe such offensive crap got 8 likes.

Or maybe most folk saw it for the light hearted joke it was?
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 Goucho 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> In reply to Goucho. But if becoming a vegan meant it would give you 10 years of extra climbing what then?

I doubt it would
 Offwidth 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho:

Yeah right. Whats next? Light hearted racism or homophobia??
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Removed User 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho:

The way to a man's heart is through his stomach, unless he's a vegan, in which case it's through his fanny.
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 Oceanrower 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Removed User:

Careful, I just got told off for making vegan jokes. Mind you, I got 13 likes too so Offwidth can poke it!
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 Goucho 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

> Yeah right. Whats next? Light hearted racism or homophobia??

Probably.

And that will then progress to sexism followed by antisemitism and eventually the thread will become a celebration of the life and times of Bernard Manning.

But hey, this is UKC after all.
 stp 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Interesting and I'd heard similar before. One of the scientists interviewed on the BBC's Eat, Fast, Live Longer who experimented with calorie restriction on mice said he thought protein restriction might be more significant in prolonging life.

However on climbingnutrition.com the guy there said:

  • For older adults (aged 65+) in particular, there are a number of adverse health outcomes associated with low protein intake, a fact that is often glossed over by proponents of lower-protein diets. In fact, when you tally both the positive (such as the above) and negative (such as slightly higher risks of certain cancers in the 45-65 age range) impacts of a high-protein diet, the numbers are clearly in favor of a higher-protein diet—which isn’t to say there isn’t a place for lower-protein diets for some people, but rather that those who demonize protein are often focusing on a very small piece of the greater picture.


http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/clarifying-protein-intake/

But of course a vegan diet doesn't have to be low protein I suppose.

Have you seen Cowspiracy? Very interesting documentary about the impact of animal consumption on climate change. Apparently it's the number one cause. So that's perhaps a more compelling reason to go vegan.
Removed User 08 Apr 2016
In reply to stp:

> Have you seen Cowspiracy? Very interesting documentary about the impact of animal consumption on climate change. Apparently it's the number one cause. So that's perhaps a more compelling reason to go vegan.

This was the primary reason I was veggie for several years when I was younger. I don't buy the nutrition argument but the environmental cost of growing food to feed our food is indeed compelling.
 stevieb 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm pretty sure that the basis of the 7th day Adventist test is that half of them are meat eaters and half are veggie (or vegan), so the control group is similarly clean living.
There may be other variables but as far as I know, they accounted for general diet, smoking, drinking.
 Offwidth 08 Apr 2016
In reply to stevieb:

Sure... but the big claims on significant extra longevity were from the first study

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies
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 John_Hat 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Only anecdotal, obviously, but a number of friends of mine appear to be immune to ageing, and they are all veggie or vegan. Possibly there's some truth in the programme?
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 stevieb 08 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
Thanks for the link. As you say the 6 or 7 year difference is down to multiple factors.
I have heard there was a 2 year difference between veggie 7da and meat eating 7da, but I don't have a link
 gethin_allen 08 Apr 2016
In reply to John_Hat:

It's probably just that vegan and veggie people think and obsess about everything they eat and because of this they eat less junk that we all know isn't really good for us but tastes nice. Things like bacon and egg sandwiches and pies.
But as I said above, what's the point of living for ever if you have to avoid all the nice stuff and live like a monk?
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 Shani 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> I watched a program last night on aging and as it turns out vegans live longer and age slower than meet eaters (which I am one)at the end of the show I was actually considering trying a vegan diet as it might pre long the time I have left to climb!Apparenty animal protein while been good for growing children after a certain age our bodies stop producing growth hormone and eating animal protein speeds up aging!

A case of bad science I'm afraid. Google Survivorship bias and more importantly 'Blue Zones'. There are many pockets of long-lived people all over the world. Few are vegetarian never mind vegan.
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 Oldsign 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Intetestingly, the days of generalisations about diet may be coming to an end. These folks reckon we've all been barking up the wrong tree for years and they're only just starting to scratch the surface:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151119133230.htm
 Goucho 08 Apr 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

> It's probably just that vegan and veggie people think and obsess about everything they eat and because of this they eat less junk that we all know isn't really good for us but tastes nice. Things like bacon and egg sandwiches and pies.

> But as I said above, what's the point of living for ever if you have to avoid all the nice stuff and live like a monk?

Over the years I've abused my body terribly with unhealthy food, drink, drugs, smoking, reckless all night partying, casual sex etc etc...

...F*ck me it's been fun, and if I had my time all over again, with what I now know.......I'd do it all over again
 Red Rover 08 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Whats the point in living longer without bacon butties, pork pies and donner kebabs? We're born, do some stuff and then die might as well have some nice grub.
 jsmcfarland 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I'm vegan and I have absolutely no idea if it has any impact on my climbing whatsoever. When N=1 drawing any kind of conclusion is pointless. There is plenty of research that says vegetarians/vegans tend to live longer and have better quality of life than the average meat-eater.
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 Big Ger 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Being a vegan gives you five more years of life.

Five miserable bacon free years....
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 Ridge 09 Apr 2016
In reply to John_Hat:

> Only anecdotal, obviously, but a number of friends of mine appear to be immune to ageing, and they are all veggie or vegan. Possibly there's some truth in the programme?

Can you see their reflection in mirrors? Do they go out during the day?
 Kevster 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Ridge:

I know some very healthy and happy veggies, but also a couple who's diet and health is not right - being veggie is only an aspect for sure, but they are veggie and permanently sick too. I'm also not convinced all veggies are happier for it.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
 pebbles 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:
> I watched a program last night on aging and as it turns out vegans live longer and age slower than meet eaters...Apparenty animal protein while been good for growing children after a certain age our bodies stop producing growth hormone

what, the BBC program? If you do their "body aging" quiz it says vegetarianism is slightly less healthy than a good mix of fish and dairy or meat and veg.

and an unsupplemented vegan diet is short in some essential vitamins. I very much doubt the science of the last bit about animal protein....sounds like something PETA might come up with (like the equally unsubstantiated claim that dairy causes acne).

realistically, any sweeping claim that vegan/omnivorous/pescatarian etc is better for you is way too simplistic. vegan how? meat eating how? A diet of chips, baked beans and vegan mince pies would be utterly vegan but less healthy than grilled chicken and green veg. (an exaggerated example just to illustrate broad claims for one diet or another are often over simplified)
Post edited at 09:00
 dereke12000 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> Being a vegan gives you five more years of life.
> Five miserable bacon free years....

It's strange but not everyone finds bacon irresistible...
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 GrahamD 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

No one will have fond memories of someone who has a veggie- let alone vegan - wake.
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 JayPee630 09 Apr 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

This thread really has brought out tw*ttish people having weird digs at vegetarians and vegans like your actually quite nasty comment. And I'm an omnivore.
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 JayPee630 09 Apr 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:
Because for most veggie and vegan people I know it's got nothing to do with living forever or extending their life, and is often for either ethical (climate or animal welfare) issues and/or their general health in the present.

I work in healthcare and seeing the number of increasingly young people that suffer (and get really ill and die) with heart disease, diabetes, strokes, as well as general ill health, lots of which is linked to unhealthy diets and lack of exercise, it seems odd that people have such strong reactions to other people being reasonable careful and sensible about what they eat.
Post edited at 11:00
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 Goucho 09 Apr 2016
In reply to JayPee630:

> This thread really has brought out tw*ttish people having weird digs at vegetarians and vegans like your actually quite nasty comment. And I'm an omnivore.

I've always wondered what a Vegans position is, regarding oral sex?
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 JayPee630 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho:

The oldies are the goodies.
 Mr. Lee 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

This recent review is probably the best indicator to your question from what I can find:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26853923

Found the full paper here in case you wanted to read further:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Francesco_Sofi/publication/293329136_V...
 Andy Lagan 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

youtube.com/watch?v=T41ZU69-veM&

Not so funny is it?
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 gethin_allen 09 Apr 2016
In reply to JayPee630:

> Because for most veggie and vegan people I know it's got nothing to do with living forever or extending their life,
I never said it was.

and is often for either ethical (climate or animal welfare) issues and/or their general health in the present.
This is the case with most vegetarians I know.

> I work in healthcare and seeing the number of increasingly young people that suffer (and get really ill and die) with heart disease, diabetes, strokes, as well as general ill health, lots of which is linked to unhealthy diets and lack of exercise, it seems odd that people have such strong reactions to other people being reasonable careful and sensible about what they eat.

You don't need to be a vegetarian or vegan to be healthy, anyone who suggest you do is an idiot. As with most things in life it's all about moderation, I'm sure if you sat on the sofa stuffing muesli down your throat all day you could turn into a proper porker and develop some nice life threatening disease just as you could if you did the same with pizza and lard.


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OP DWS gibraltar 09 Apr 2016
In reply to pebbles:

Hi , I totally agree with you .The show presented people cooking fresh heathy food I suppose vegans eat shit too like the rest of us however if eating freshly prepared food as a part of a vegan diet could give me extra years I would consider going vegan especially if it could give me more years to climb!
 Jack_Lewin 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Yeah but Bacon
In reply to jsmcfarland:

> I'm vegan and I have absolutely no idea if it has any impact on my climbing whatsoever. When N=1 drawing any kind of conclusion is pointless. There is plenty of research that says vegetarians/vegans tend to live longer and have better quality of life than the average meat-eater.

I'm vegan too, and am pretty sure it's contributed to keeping my weight down and climbing standard reasonably up for an old fart. However, the biggest contribution came from giving up alcohol which has been positive in so many ways as well as losing weight,
 GrahamD 09 Apr 2016
In reply to JayPee630:

Touchy touchy
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 philhilo 09 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Some of this debate reminds me of an overheard conversation shortly after the death of Linda McCartney:
"I see that Linda McCartney has passed away, she was a vegetarian and she still died."
 birdie num num 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Oceanrower:

I normally like to shag veganas
 Big Ger 09 Apr 2016
In reply to dereke12000:

> It's strange but not everyone finds bacon irresistible...

Not that strange. I was vegetarian for 35 years. I now eat fish but not meat. Still find the smell of bacon enticing though
KevinD 09 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> Yeah, but they still make accountants seem interesting by comparison.

isnt that actuaries?
 dr_botnik 10 Apr 2016
In reply to MikeR:

Alotta bad jokes in this thread....

I've been vegetarian on and off since i finished school, my first job was in a chicken factory, thats what caused it, nothing to do with thinking id be healthier... i do try and only buy meat from smaller producers now and small scale abattoirs as i don't think you can really kill that many animals without cutting corners, the thought of it just horrifies me and puts me off the food (although i don't beat myself up about it when i get the occaisional big mac... hence why i liked that dailymash article, spot on
 Shani 10 Apr 2016
In reply to dr_botnik:

> Alotta bad jokes in this thread....

> I've been vegetarian on and off since i finished school, my first job was in a chicken factory, thats what caused it, nothing to do with thinking id be healthier... i do try and only buy meat from smaller producers now and small scale abattoirs as i don't think you can really kill that many animals without cutting corners, the thought of it just horrifies me and puts me off the food (although i don't beat myself up about it when i get the occaisional big mac... hence why i liked that dailymash article, spot on


Noble aims, but how do you think a field of crops is kept free of pests & 'vermin'? Arable farming pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen.
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 Bimble 10 Apr 2016
In reply to Shani:

> Noble aims, but how do you think a field of crops is kept free of pests & 'vermin'? Arable farming pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen.

Resulting in my freezer being full of delicious venison, rabbit & pigeon. Thanks, vegans!
 RobOggie 10 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Goodness me!
Don't you just love it when a post you write in jest for a little bit of Tuesday morning light entertainment takes on a life of it's own!
 bpmclimb 11 Apr 2016
In reply to Shani:

> Noble aims, but how do you think a field of crops is kept free of pests & 'vermin'? Arable farming pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen.

Human beings don't have an absolute nutritional requirement for animal products, so we're fortunate enough to have a choice in the matter. The vegan diet is an entirely practical proposition, and there are various excellent reasons for adopting it. However, if you choose to eat animals, for reasons of preference, taste, habit, whatever; then just get on with it: no-one can force you not to. If you feel uncomfortable about it, then don't. But trying to sell everyone the idea that eating animals is just as humane as not eating them, by resorting to some facile "pushing of the killing" argument, is plain daft. If you go microscopic enough, we're all "killing", all the time. We've heard this tack from you before, and it's no more convincing this time around.
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 bpmclimb 11 Apr 2016
In reply to gethin_allen:

> Vegans may well live longer but that just extends the torture.

You ever tried a plant-only diet? We're an adaptable species, and like other lifestyle changes cutting out meat/dairy only entails a relatively short period of adjustment. It's no big deal, because our tastes change, however fixed we imagine them to be in the moment. I've been vegan now for many years, and it's long since become completely the norm for me; I have literally thousands of things to eat, which I can combine in many ways - the variety is pretty much inexhaustible. I really enjoy my food, I'm not on some denial trip. My diet is healthy, tasty, and actually a lot more varied than most meat/dairy eaters I know.
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 Shani 11 Apr 2016
In reply to bpmclimb:
> Human beings don't have an absolute nutritional requirement for animal products, so we're fortunate enough to have a choice in the matter. The vegan diet is an entirely practical proposition, and there are various excellent reasons for adopting it. However, if you choose to eat animals, for reasons of preference, taste, habit, whatever; then just get on with it: no-one can force you not to. If you feel uncomfortable about it, then don't. But trying to sell everyone the idea that eating animals is just as humane as not eating them, by resorting to some facile "pushing of the killing" argument, is plain daft. If you go microscopic enough, we're all "killing", all the time. We've heard this tack from you before, and it's no more convincing this time around.

Your first sentence *might* be true, but I remain to be convinced having seen several stories of infants of fanatical vegans dying from malnutrition.

On your other point, you misunderstand as I am not "trying to sell everyone the idea that eating animals is just as humane as not eating them".

A cropped field is an industrial landscape. Are you seriously making the argument that pesticides, fungicides and herbicides are not used on crops and benign? Monocropping facilitates 'swarming' of 'pests' and there is only one way large scale growing can be kept bug free.

Now, if you are killing bugs you are not only introducing poison in to the food chain of things that feed on those bugs (birds, hedgehogs), but you are also reducing the food source for those dependents with a consequent knock-on effect.

Also, when you harvest a field and expose its soil you get create a few problems - the soil is exposed and leached of its nutrients (so you now need to manually reintroduce nutrients), but you also get run off in to the water course; not only is silt pushed in to the water system but also any chemicals you have sprayed on to the land - which can kill aquatic life. At the least you get eutrophication. You'll be aware of desertification in both the Fertile Crescent and the US grain belts.

Lots of small mammals are killed in the jaws of agricultural machinery and in Australia for example, large grain fields have led to plagues of mice which have to be controlled by lethal means.

So yes, go veg*n if you are uncomfortable with animal suffering - but don't assume that your veg*n food comes from a responsible source, don't ignore the cost of your food miles, and, don't assume animals have not suffered and died due to your diet.

Alternatively, eat meat but eschew factory farms as a way of reducing suffering. Try to source meat from a local source that is pasture raised. A pastoral farm can host indigenous species, the land can be shared with a whole host of wildlife both flora and fauna (pastoral farming does not compete with other species at the base of the food chain, unlike arable farming), it will be fertilized by cow manure, there is no need for antibiotics (unless to cure sickness), and no need for aggressive pesticides etc... on the land. There will be no problem with run off nor soil erosion. The will still be suffering, but after a 'good life' the cow/pig/hen/sheep will be swiftly dispatched.

(Those in Sheffield should try produce from realmeat-sheffield.co.uk)
Post edited at 09:14
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 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> I watched a program last night on aging and as it turns out vegans live longer and age slower than meet eaters (which I am one)at the end of the show I was actually considering trying a vegan diet as it might pre long the time I have left to climb!Apparenty animal protein while been good for growing children after a certain age our bodies stop producing growth hormone and eating animal protein speeds up aging!

This sounds like total b*****x to me. Vegans probably live longer than Joe Average because they most likely don't drink, smoke or have unsafe sex as much as the rest of the herd. There's no way on earth you can take stats about how long vegans live and prove that their relative longevity is due to one of their characteristics and not one of their other characteristics. It's just speculation.
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 bpmclimb 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:

> Vegans probably live longer than Joe Average because they most likely don't drink, smoke or have unsafe sex as much as the rest of the herd.

Based on what? Pure speculation, and prejudiced at that - a far bigger load of b...x than anything in the OP. In my opinion, of course.
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Jim C 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I have been-out for a meal with a vegan, it was torture, he interrogated the waiter about the 'vegetable soup' , he then asked to speak to the chef, and asked him about the stock ( which turned out not to be to his liking) and so decided against the vegetable soup. Then it was in to the main course, and the sauce!
It was a painful process. I understand most eateries now label the menu showing vagan friendly dishes .


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 andrewmc 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim C:
> It was a painful process. I understand most eateries now label the menu showing vagan friendly dishes .

A very small fraction do, most do not. If they did, then life would be much easier for those who choose not to eat bits of animal or animal-produced stuff (not an entirely unreasonable request)...

(only a vegetarian, not hardcore enough to go vegan given a) how much I like cheese and milk and b) how much easier it is to be vegetarian in this country instead of vegan)
Post edited at 10:54
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 SenzuBean 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> I've always wondered what a Vegans position is, regarding oral sex?

Are you (and others) actually not sure what being a vegan is or just trying to be funny? Assuming the former, then it's instructive to look at the defintion provided by the vegan society UK:

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Getting your partner to drink your salty custard is therefore fine.
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 SenzuBean 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Shani:

> Noble aims, but how do you think a field of crops is kept free of pests & 'vermin'? Arable farming pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen.

Too true - but then you take into account that cows are feed those grains as well (and need about 5-10x the amount of corn to produce the same worth in meat). So your choices are "kill 50 mice", or "kill 50 (or more) mice and 1 cow" (grass-fed cows are still fed a lot of food during off-season). Secondly the type of crop, and size of farm - determines pesticide usage.
Some crops use almost no pesticides, while others (such as cotton) use more than all the others.
 slab_happy 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim C:

I'm not sure why you're puzzled that a vegan wouldn't want to have vegetable soup that's made with (for example) beef stock? That's a bit more significant than just being "not to his liking" ...

Yes, it's a pain going out to dinner if you have unusual dietary requirements of any kind (I have the delightful medical problem of not being able to eat tomatoes, and trust me, you don't want to know why) and have to ask what there is that you can actually eat. And often the waiters aren't sure, and thus have to refer it to the chef.

But it's a socially awkward and slightly miserable pain for those of us who have to ask.

I'm sorry that it's "torture" for you merely to be in the company of someone who has to ask what's in the food.
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 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to bpmclimb:

> Based on what? Pure speculation, and prejudiced at that - a far bigger load of b...x than anything in the OP. In my opinion, of course.

Absolutely - that was my point. It's impossible to observe two frequently-occurring characteristics of a particular group of people and use that observation as proof that one causes the other. Do try to keep up
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 Shani 12 Apr 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

> Too true - but then you take into account that cows are feed those grains as well (and need about 5-10x the amount of corn to produce the same worth in meat). So your choices are "kill 50 mice", or "kill 50 (or more) mice and 1 cow" (grass-fed cows are still fed a lot of food during off-season). Secondly the type of crop, and size of farm - determines pesticide usage.

There is a lot of contention around the metrics of arable vs pastoral farming and there is nuance within each. As I put above, if you monocrop you have to maintain a pest free environment and by its nature, you are reducing biodiversity and so what the land can sustain.

With pasture raised cows there is no need for grain (they eat grass), no need for artificial fertilizers (cow manure is adequeate), and no run off, leaching nor siltation from exposed soils. The land can also sustain complex ecosystems that can be shared by flora, fauna and wider human activities.

But I agree that some forms of pastoral farming are horrendous which is why I try to buy ethically raised meat most of the time (and indeed for much of my food). It's more expensive but I sleep easier as I am supporting a more sustainable farming model.
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Jim C 12 Apr 2016
In reply to slab_happy:

I comiserate with you on the dietry issues, my future son-in-law has multiple issues, and it rules his life.
But that is a hassle that is not his lifestyle choice, and I am very sympathetic to that.

I forgot that I once went on a walking holiday , 15 days with a vegan .
Every night at a different eatery , and the exact same same song an dance over food every night.
I must have blanked that from my memory.

Anyway, that was a few years ago, and menus seem to be much better now for people with preferences .
( I avoid eating beef , and red meats myself, but that is fairly easy to do, and I don't make a big song and dance about it when out for meals)
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 Shani 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> ( I avoid eating beef , and red meats myself, but that is fairly easy to do, and I don't make a big song and dance about it when out for meals)

I am curious as to why you'd avoid beef and red meats as they are highly nutritious.
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 steveej 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

being a Vegan is like being a Mountain Climber.

A privilege that just doesn't exist for people born in large parts of the world.
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 Offwidth 12 Apr 2016
In reply to steveej:
What a load of nonsense.... the most vegetarian big country in the world is India and much of the vegetarian poor there are sometimes effectively vegan. Vegetarianism by choice or economic reality is a cheap way to live in poor countries: meat is the luxury.
Post edited at 14:19
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 steveej 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
you mean in 'some' poor countries.

what about central asia, south America, arctic regions........and so on.....
Post edited at 14:37
 Offwidth 12 Apr 2016
In reply to steveej:

Yeah but despite all that contradicting what I said, what DID the Romans ever do for us?
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 birdie num num 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

Vegetarianism by choice or economic reality is a cheap way to live in poor countries: meat is the luxury.

What a load of nonsense…… A Quarterpounder Happy Meal is only £2.49 whereas a Shredded Kale & Cranberry Salad with Orange and Ginger dressing can be up to £8.00 a portion.
1
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:
> This sounds like total b*****x to me. Vegans probably live longer than Joe Average because they most likely don't drink, smoke or have unsafe sex as much as the rest of the herd. There's no way on earth you can take stats about how long vegans live and prove that their relative longevity is due to one of their characteristics and not one of their other characteristics. It's just speculation.

I like how neutrally minded you are about this, in being open to learning more about the research methodology before making a judgement.

Ha

Edit
Post edited at 16:37
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 Shani 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:
> I like how neutrally minded you are about this, in being open to learning more about the research methodology before making a judgement.

Actually, although Timmd may score low on tact here, he is bang on the money. As I put above, if you Google 'Blue Zones' (pockets of long-lived people all over the world), very few if any are vegetarian never mind vegan.

The thing with veg*nism is that it has been deemed de facto healthy for 40 odd years. This means that people who are concerned about their health and longevity in general are more inclined to be veg*n.

This demographic would include the wealthy & higher-educated (both factors affecting longevity and compressed morbidity), and various behaviours associated with health - regular exercise, moderate drinking, non-smoking, plenty of fresh food, relaxation/low stress interventions (particularly from multiple and more exotic holidays), high quality housing in 'good' areas, and strong social networks.
Post edited at 16:23
3
 Offwidth 12 Apr 2016
In reply to birdie num num:

Near perfect... you must be practising.
1
 steveej 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

This thread has reminded me about the vegetarian / dry wedding I had the misfortune to attend a few years back. I know, I know, who am I to criticize their special day......

Trouble is, they invite themselves around for dinner every so often, and to be quite honest, it is a massive pain in the ass having to deal with these picky eaters.

1
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Shani:
> Actually, although Timmd may score low on tact here, he is bang on the money. As I put above, if you Google 'Blue Zones' (pockets of long-lived people all over the world), very few if any are vegetarian never mind vegan.

I'm from a sarcastic (and very kind) family, seems I can't help it popping out occasionally.
Post edited at 16:39
1
 Carless 12 Apr 2016
In reply to steveej:

not bothered about the vegetarian aspect, but a dry wedding?!
Hanging's too good for 'em
 Shani 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

Nothing wrong with straight talking. It gets me in to trouble all the time!
1
 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> I like how neutrally minded you are about this, in being open to learning more about the research methodology before making a judgement.

OK, go on then - this is all undergraduate stuff, so explain to us a viable way to prove how longer lifespans in Vegans is causally related to their non-consumption of animal proteins!
1
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:

Are you a dietitian and a scientist?
1
 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> Are you a dietitian and a scientist?

Mind your own business. Are you?
3
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Carless:

> not bothered about the vegetarian aspect, but a dry wedding?!

> Hanging's too good for 'em

I don't/can't drink anymore - and even I kind of agree. Each to their own I guess.
1
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:
> Mind your own business. Are you?

I only asked...

With you seeming to have such a strong opinion on it not being something one could really find any kind of evidence on, I naturally assumed you might/must be.

Post edited at 21:30
1
 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> I only asked... > With you seeming to have such a strong opinion on it not being something one could really find any kind of evidence on, I naturally assumed you might/must be.

You were the one giving the lecture about 'being open to learning more about the research methodology'. But you seem to have carefully avoided my question inviting you to be more precise about that. Are you actually able to put your money where your mouth is and tell us how it's possible to know for sure, just from observing vegans, how anyone can say for sure that one of their characteristics causes another?
1
Removed User 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim C:
> I have been-out for a meal with a vegan, it was torture, he interrogated the waiter about the 'vegetable soup' , he then asked to speak to the chef, and asked him about the stock ( which turned out not to be to his liking) and so decided against the vegetable soup. Then it was in to the main course, and the sauce!

I'm not sure what the issue is here. If someone has strict dietary preferences then it would seem like a fairly normal thing to enquire about what was going to be served up. I'm sure we all know or have known individuals who would be sanctimonious or self-indulgently difficult about it but that isn't restricted to vegans/veggies etc, that's just some people being dickheads.

As an aside, but related to the ongoing high-horsery about being offended, imagine the reactions if you had written that same post but replace 'vegan' with 'observant Jew' or 'Muslim.'
Post edited at 22:58
1
 nufkin 12 Apr 2016
In reply to steveej:

> to be quite honest, it is a massive pain in the ass having to deal with these picky eaters.

People who have no principles are always so much easier to deal with
1
 Brass Nipples 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

How to stay young, in 10 mins on BBC1
 Jim Fraser 12 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Fasting and calorie restriction are also getting a lot of coverage as the answer to a longer life. So one has to ask, is being vegan the same as eating next to bu99er all?
 nufkin 12 Apr 2016
Having a watch of the Frank Medrano video is always an eye-opener in terms of what veganism can produce:

youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo&

 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:
> You were the one giving the lecture about 'being open to learning more about the research methodology'. But you seem to have carefully avoided my question inviting you to be more precise about that. Are you actually able to put your money where your mouth is and tell us how it's possible to know for sure, just from observing vegans, how anyone can say for sure that one of their characteristics causes another?

I didn't think it was a lecture? I forgot to say I'm not a scientist or a dietitian - which is why I don't have a strong opinion either way on the findings, I don't think I know enough to have.
Post edited at 23:37
 Andy Morley 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> I didn't think it was a lecture? I forgot to say I'm not a scientist or a dietitian - which is why I don't have a strong opinion either way on the findings, I don't think I know enough to have.

So do you just accept what 'the experts' tell you, unquestioningly?
2
 Timmd 12 Apr 2016
In reply to Andy Morley:
Erm....no, that's why I 'don't have a strong opinion either way'. I await further discoveries.
Post edited at 23:50
1
 Timmd 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim Fraser:

> Fasting and calorie restriction are also getting a lot of coverage as the answer to a longer life. So one has to ask, is being vegan the same as eating next to bu99er all?

A vegan friend into his climbing and being active seems to thrive on it, and doesn't look pale white like some can stereotype vegans and vegetarians to look. My female vegan friend does, but he's full of colour in his cheeks and with lots of energy.
1
 Andy Morley 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

> Erm....no, that's why I 'don't have a strong opinion either way'. I await further discoveries.

So in the interim, what do you do about your own diet, given that the 'experts' all furiously disagree with one another. Do you just take the microwave option?

BTW, I dispute your elevation of the dietician to 'expert' status, since ordinary human beings have been paying huge attention to their individual and collective diets from the Neolithic, through to the present age. No-one would dispute the expertise of untrained lions or leaf-cutter ants as to their diets, and I happen to think that ordinary humans know a thing or two about food too - otherwise they'd probably die in their droves. But like the experts and unlike lions and leafcutter ants, they don't agree either!
5
Jim C 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Timmd:

My (female) vegan friend does, but he's full of colour in (his) cheeks and with lots of energy.

But look what it has done to her sexuality

Jim C 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Removed User:


> As an aside, but related to the ongoing high-horsery about being offended, imagine the reactions if you had written that same post but replace 'vegan' with 'observant Jew' or 'Muslim.'

Not been out for a meal with an 'observant Jew' , that I am aware, but I have with a 'observant Muslim' and there were no issues.
( but then that was just one night , not 15 nights in a row eating in a different place each night with the same cross examination of the menus and staff every night, so hard to compare.)

As I said earlier, the catering business has since then pretty much got their act together with information on the menus.
(Whether what is stated is actually what they are eating is a different matter, all down to trust)
Jim C 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Shani:
As a family we stopped Beef overnight as there was a huge health issue at the time ( BSE) , and we felt it unfair to take any risk (no matter how small) with the kid's future health who had no choice in the matter. (Remember Gummer?) The 'incubation' period was said to be something like as much as 30 years in the future.

Up until then I ate almost nothing else but Beef and other red meats , but because of that 'pause' in eating meat my horizons broadened when we explored a range of other foods, and found that I actually preferred a lot of them to red meat.

After that I/we ate much less red meat, and as the 'evidence' that eating too much had health issues grew, I now 'avoid' choosing it.
(However, if I am in a social situation where it was akward to refuse it , ( or the menu is ambiguous ) I will not make a fuss I will just order eat, and enjoy it.

(I'm not posioned by it, nor will it make me immediatly ill, and I do know and sympathise with people that do have these reactions to certain foods. )
Post edited at 12:51
 Shani 13 Apr 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> As a family we stopped Beef overnight as there was a huge health issue at the time ( BSE) , and we felt it unfair to take any risk (no matter how small) with the kid's future health who had no choice in the matter. (Remember Gummer?) The 'incubation' period was said to be something like as much as 30 years in the future.

> After that I/we ate much less red meat, and as the 'evidence' that eating too much had health issues grew, I now 'avoid' choosing it.

That whole BSE/Gummer things influenced me as well (I had a stint as a vegetarian and vegan that was influenced at least in part by worries about food quality).

FWIW the evidence of red meat being unhealthy is rather flimsy, but all meats are not the same quality. I take care about my source of meat and still avoid processed meats (not because of any cancer concern, more to do with what the actual meat content is).
1
 Andy Morley 14 Apr 2016
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Anyone who's serious about a healthy diet and who wants to better understand how reliable the edicts of dietary pundits are might find the following story interesting. It's about fats and sugars rather than protein but it does very clearly demonstrate the very questionable scientific basis for some dietary advice:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-...

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