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Ok, not looking for another typical trad vs. sport clash here, or another argument about semantics: sport crag, trad crag, mixed ethic crag, "sport by default" crag (..... still no idea what that means, exactly - but moving swiftly on...) ..
.... what with all the recent new-routing at Wyndcliffe Quarry, and the prospect of a LWV sport climbing guidebook, some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted". It would be both interesting, and useful, to get an idea of which trad climbs climbers familiar with the crag feel would be better off bolted, and which should definitely be preserved as trad.
I'm guessing that most will agree that at the very least Bogger Bob and Canine Crack should stay trad.
Personally, for what it's worth, on the Upper Lift I would add to that list Dewdrop, All Hail Cathal (neglected but very worthwhile), Mark My Words, Fishy Flavours, and Little Slit. On the Lower Lift I would add The Charlatan (bold, but with a distinct character), Rotten Corner, And the crowds Went Wild, That One Might Be Work (and the new The Huntly Blues to its left).
Any thoughts (particularly about the left hand section of the Lower Lift)?
.... what with all the recent new-routing at Wyndcliffe Quarry, and the prospect of a LWV sport climbing guidebook, some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted". It would be both interesting, and useful, to get an idea of which trad climbs climbers familiar with the crag feel would be better off bolted, and which should definitely be preserved as trad.
I'm guessing that most will agree that at the very least Bogger Bob and Canine Crack should stay trad.
Personally, for what it's worth, on the Upper Lift I would add to that list Dewdrop, All Hail Cathal (neglected but very worthwhile), Mark My Words, Fishy Flavours, and Little Slit. On the Lower Lift I would add The Charlatan (bold, but with a distinct character), Rotten Corner, And the crowds Went Wild, That One Might Be Work (and the new The Huntly Blues to its left).
Any thoughts (particularly about the left hand section of the Lower Lift)?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Having done chippa and nice and dry, I always felt that they were defacto sports routes. I never placed any gear other than the fixed protection.
Having done chippa and nice and dry, I always felt that they were defacto sports routes. I never placed any gear other than the fixed protection.
In reply to bpmclimb:
I know this isn't the sort of response you wanted but 'some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted"' couldn't have been better designed as a red rag, could it?
I know this isn't the sort of response you wanted but 'some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted"' couldn't have been better designed as a red rag, could it?
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In reply to Andy Say:
Genuinely not meant as such. There are some trad lines there which I personally think would be better as sport climbs; others I would leave alone. I was trying to see to what extent my opinions matched those of other climbers. The post was catalysed by recent conversations I've had with Mark and Gordon about this - in particular with Gordon yesterday, about the area I mentioned.
> I know this isn't the sort of response you wanted but 'some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted"' couldn't have been better designed as a red rag, could it?
Genuinely not meant as such. There are some trad lines there which I personally think would be better as sport climbs; others I would leave alone. I was trying to see to what extent my opinions matched those of other climbers. The post was catalysed by recent conversations I've had with Mark and Gordon about this - in particular with Gordon yesterday, about the area I mentioned.
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In reply to Fatclimber:
I tend to agree - I think both Chippa and Choppa would be better fully bolted. As you say, Nice and Dry has fixed gear anyway (although having pulled some sizeable pieces off in the past, I wonder if the rock might be too weak for bolting).
If it were up to me, I'd leave The Charlatan, Little Plums, and The Rotten Corner as a little "trad zone", on the grounds that they do get climbed regularly, and they aren't without character (especially the Charlatan). But it would be interesting to hear what others think.
> Having done chippa and nice and dry, I always felt that they were defacto sports routes. I never placed any gear other than the fixed protection.
I tend to agree - I think both Chippa and Choppa would be better fully bolted. As you say, Nice and Dry has fixed gear anyway (although having pulled some sizeable pieces off in the past, I wonder if the rock might be too weak for bolting).
If it were up to me, I'd leave The Charlatan, Little Plums, and The Rotten Corner as a little "trad zone", on the grounds that they do get climbed regularly, and they aren't without character (especially the Charlatan). But it would be interesting to hear what others think.
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In reply to Andy Say:
I'd reassure you that bpmclimb, Gordon, Mark and co have a long track record of doing things properly and doing the right thing at mixed trad-sport crags.
bpmclimb: I have not done many of the trad routes there but from what I know of them your suggestions seem reasonable and I don't have much of a view either way of the ones you are undecided about.
I'd reassure you that bpmclimb, Gordon, Mark and co have a long track record of doing things properly and doing the right thing at mixed trad-sport crags.
bpmclimb: I have not done many of the trad routes there but from what I know of them your suggestions seem reasonable and I don't have much of a view either way of the ones you are undecided about.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Move the lower off for Shin Gi Tai well away from Bogger Bob! Agree with your other ideas, particularly And The Crowds Went Wild- good trad route
Move the lower off for Shin Gi Tai well away from Bogger Bob! Agree with your other ideas, particularly And The Crowds Went Wild- good trad route
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In reply to all:
By the way, is anyone particularly attached to the "nearly but not quite" bolting of The Corrective Party? It's basically a sport route, but is missing its first bolt, so at the moment we're stuck with the trad grade. FWIW it seems a no-brainer to me to add another bolt, but I know some people get to like these spicy starts
By the way, is anyone particularly attached to the "nearly but not quite" bolting of The Corrective Party? It's basically a sport route, but is missing its first bolt, so at the moment we're stuck with the trad grade. FWIW it seems a no-brainer to me to add another bolt, but I know some people get to like these spicy starts
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In reply to bpmclimb:
To add I saw a few people enjoying Mark my Words recently but it seems that it has already at least been partly bolted which is a shame. Not done much trad on the lower lift, but couldn't care much less for the semi bolted things. Wouldn't like to see any of the others bolted though
To add I saw a few people enjoying Mark my Words recently but it seems that it has already at least been partly bolted which is a shame. Not done much trad on the lower lift, but couldn't care much less for the semi bolted things. Wouldn't like to see any of the others bolted though
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In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Yes, bit of a shame, but at least it's only the initial easy groove; the steep groove up right (the real meat of the climb) looks to be unaffected. I haven't actually climbed the route, I hasten to add
On the plus side, the "culprit" Shin Gi Tai (2) is a really good, tough 6b+ - worth two stars I reckon.
> To add I saw a few people enjoying Mark my Words recently but it seems that it has already at least been partly bolted which is a shame.
Yes, bit of a shame, but at least it's only the initial easy groove; the steep groove up right (the real meat of the climb) looks to be unaffected. I haven't actually climbed the route, I hasten to add
On the plus side, the "culprit" Shin Gi Tai (2) is a really good, tough 6b+ - worth two stars I reckon.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
This is from Gordon Jenkin:
The routes highlighted in bold would be my suggestions for retro-bolting.
Note: The three climbs onto the large ledge atop The Charlatan share two finishes above.
It looks like it could be possible to construct four replacement four lines (and perhaps keep the start of
The Charlatan as its current solo).
UPPER LIFT
Dewdrop (HS) – worthy as is.
Canine Crack (E1) – classic crag trad (it now has its own abseil rings)
Bogger Bob (E2 or E3) – best trad here (original E3 finish to tree now recleaned and has 2 pegs)
Mark My Words (E3) – original lethal start has had major reclean and bolted as part of Shin Gi Tai(2).
Intention is to reclean finish and thereby make good hybrid E2.
Al Hail Cathal (E1) - strong line that needs further cleaning. Currently no safe anchor at top.
Would need OK from Martin Crocker if people wanted this to be a bolted F6a.
True Colours (E1) – strong line with tricky small gear. Now has its own abseil rings.
Fishy Favours (VS) – a two move wonder. Bolt has been replaced.
Little Slit (VS) – nice little trad crack.
LOWER LIFT
*Chippa (E1) – partly bolted.
*Choppa (E2) – partly bolted.
Food for Worms (E1) – OK trad line
*Nice and Dry (HVS) – two old pegs
*The Charlatan (HVS) – nice start (bold) but indifferent finish.
*Little Plums (VS) – one old peg. Nice start but no independent finish.
Rotten Corner (VS) – worthy if a bit more cleaning and threads replaced.
Still Stuck on You (HVS) – hybrid that has become an established crag novelty.
Sweet FA (HVS) – worthy as is.
*The Corrective Party (E2) – often climbed with pads, pre-clipping, stick-clipping as no bolt.
And the Crowds Went Wild (E2) – classic crag trad.
That One Might Be Work (E1) – in-situ sling
Can’t ‘Member (HVS) – takes gear (and is actually VS 4c)
This is from Gordon Jenkin:
The routes highlighted in bold would be my suggestions for retro-bolting.
Note: The three climbs onto the large ledge atop The Charlatan share two finishes above.
It looks like it could be possible to construct four replacement four lines (and perhaps keep the start of
The Charlatan as its current solo).
UPPER LIFT
Dewdrop (HS) – worthy as is.
Canine Crack (E1) – classic crag trad (it now has its own abseil rings)
Bogger Bob (E2 or E3) – best trad here (original E3 finish to tree now recleaned and has 2 pegs)
Mark My Words (E3) – original lethal start has had major reclean and bolted as part of Shin Gi Tai(2).
Intention is to reclean finish and thereby make good hybrid E2.
Al Hail Cathal (E1) - strong line that needs further cleaning. Currently no safe anchor at top.
Would need OK from Martin Crocker if people wanted this to be a bolted F6a.
True Colours (E1) – strong line with tricky small gear. Now has its own abseil rings.
Fishy Favours (VS) – a two move wonder. Bolt has been replaced.
Little Slit (VS) – nice little trad crack.
LOWER LIFT
*Chippa (E1) – partly bolted.
*Choppa (E2) – partly bolted.
Food for Worms (E1) – OK trad line
*Nice and Dry (HVS) – two old pegs
*The Charlatan (HVS) – nice start (bold) but indifferent finish.
*Little Plums (VS) – one old peg. Nice start but no independent finish.
Rotten Corner (VS) – worthy if a bit more cleaning and threads replaced.
Still Stuck on You (HVS) – hybrid that has become an established crag novelty.
Sweet FA (HVS) – worthy as is.
*The Corrective Party (E2) – often climbed with pads, pre-clipping, stick-clipping as no bolt.
And the Crowds Went Wild (E2) – classic crag trad.
That One Might Be Work (E1) – in-situ sling
Can’t ‘Member (HVS) – takes gear (and is actually VS 4c)
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I personally think Chippa and Choppa should be fully bolted and maybe the trad routes to the right that rely heavily on pegs and threads.
I personally think Chippa and Choppa should be fully bolted and maybe the trad routes to the right that rely heavily on pegs and threads.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Personally, I was disappointed that 'Violation of Trust' was retro-bolted at Ban-y-gor, completely unnecessary, and would have valued an online discussion such as this in advance of that (on the whole excellent!) crag re-gearing.
Could you let us know who has proposed producing a new guidebook ?
Presumably a LWV sport climbing guidebook will include Wintours Leap & Ban-y-Gor which, given the new-routing over the past few years, will need to be ''sorted'' ?
So, is the same discussion likely to be repeated on a crag by crag basis ?
> .... what with all the recent new-routing at Wyndcliffe Quarry, and the prospect of a LWV sport climbing guidebook, some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted". It would be both interesting, and useful, to get an idea of which trad climbs climbers familiar with the crag feel would be better off bolted, and which should definitely be preserved as trad.
Personally, I was disappointed that 'Violation of Trust' was retro-bolted at Ban-y-gor, completely unnecessary, and would have valued an online discussion such as this in advance of that (on the whole excellent!) crag re-gearing.
Could you let us know who has proposed producing a new guidebook ?
Presumably a LWV sport climbing guidebook will include Wintours Leap & Ban-y-Gor which, given the new-routing over the past few years, will need to be ''sorted'' ?
So, is the same discussion likely to be repeated on a crag by crag basis ?
Post edited at 13:28
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In reply to Urgles:
I'd be sorry to lose The Charlatan as a trad climb, less bothered about the others. However, that little area in general (Nice and Dry to Rotten Corner) is regularly used as it is (quite a lot of UKC logged ascents), and my feeling is that there's nothing much wrong with the climbs - ok they converge at the top, but that's not particularly unusual - and I don't see any pressing need to change them. I suppose I just like having a clutch of lower grade trad there; I see it as one of the distinctive features of the quarry.
I'd be sorry to lose The Charlatan as a trad climb, less bothered about the others. However, that little area in general (Nice and Dry to Rotten Corner) is regularly used as it is (quite a lot of UKC logged ascents), and my feeling is that there's nothing much wrong with the climbs - ok they converge at the top, but that's not particularly unusual - and I don't see any pressing need to change them. I suppose I just like having a clutch of lower grade trad there; I see it as one of the distinctive features of the quarry.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I thought I was having deja vu when I read this thread, and sure enough, there was a similar thread last July
(http://goo.gl/UKRlNa) where there seemed to be more of a conclusion against retrobolting at WCQ. Has your view last year changed?
"My opinion is that at a mixed ethic crag, the existing trad lines should stay that way by default, unless a strong consensus emerges (via BMC meets) to bolt them, and the FA has been duly consulted. This opinion is, I believe, shared by many, and is in line with BMC policy."
Is there a strong consensus to retrobolt at the quarry?
I agree that not all the trad lines are the best examples of trad routes, but nevertheless, if we start retrobolting in the name of "getting the crag really 'sorted'", surely we're going to end up retrobolting the whole quarry because by the time we're just left with Bogger Bob and Canine Crack, no one's going to bother carrying their rack up for a couple of trad routes.
I thought I was having deja vu when I read this thread, and sure enough, there was a similar thread last July
(http://goo.gl/UKRlNa) where there seemed to be more of a conclusion against retrobolting at WCQ. Has your view last year changed?
"My opinion is that at a mixed ethic crag, the existing trad lines should stay that way by default, unless a strong consensus emerges (via BMC meets) to bolt them, and the FA has been duly consulted. This opinion is, I believe, shared by many, and is in line with BMC policy."
Is there a strong consensus to retrobolt at the quarry?
I agree that not all the trad lines are the best examples of trad routes, but nevertheless, if we start retrobolting in the name of "getting the crag really 'sorted'", surely we're going to end up retrobolting the whole quarry because by the time we're just left with Bogger Bob and Canine Crack, no one's going to bother carrying their rack up for a couple of trad routes.
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In reply to Esoterical:
> Could you let us know who has proposed producing a new guidebook ?
Sure ... just checking first that they're happy to be mentioned .....> So, is the same discussion likely to be repeated on a crag by crag basis ?
I daresay - some crags more than others, probably. I can certainly imagine some similar issues cropping up at Woodcroft. In reply to whenry:
My position isn't changed, although my rhetoric may have softened a bit! I remain staunchly defensive of lines which I think are undeniably trad, and I think the burden of proof should always lie with the people proposing to make changes. However, I think there's a useful distinction to be made between a trad route and a route which merely gets a trad grade due to incomplete bolting. Chippa and Choppa for example, or The Corrective Party. But even in those cases, some form of consensus should be sought (and the FA consulted). Hence this thread.
My position isn't changed, although my rhetoric may have softened a bit! I remain staunchly defensive of lines which I think are undeniably trad, and I think the burden of proof should always lie with the people proposing to make changes. However, I think there's a useful distinction to be made between a trad route and a route which merely gets a trad grade due to incomplete bolting. Chippa and Choppa for example, or The Corrective Party. But even in those cases, some form of consensus should be sought (and the FA consulted). Hence this thread.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I've never climbed there and have no real interest in the outcome and therefore maybe shouldn't have an opinion... but for what it's worth: The more trad routes you retro the less trad routes you have. You risk ending up with not having enough trad routes to interest trad climbers. The few trad lines that are left could well end up getting overgrown due to not being climbed making them then even less attractive. Preserving trad climbs in a quarry that is predominantly a sport climbing venue, just for the sake of preserving them because you can get gear in them could well end up being counterproductive...
I've never climbed there and have no real interest in the outcome and therefore maybe shouldn't have an opinion... but for what it's worth: The more trad routes you retro the less trad routes you have. You risk ending up with not having enough trad routes to interest trad climbers. The few trad lines that are left could well end up getting overgrown due to not being climbed making them then even less attractive. Preserving trad climbs in a quarry that is predominantly a sport climbing venue, just for the sake of preserving them because you can get gear in them could well end up being counterproductive...
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Not a direct response to the OP but just to say a massive thanks to those that have worked so hard on these crags recently. Mark and Gordon in particular have made them a lot safer and more accessible.
Not a direct response to the OP but just to say a massive thanks to those that have worked so hard on these crags recently. Mark and Gordon in particular have made them a lot safer and more accessible.
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In reply to Esoterical:
LWV sport climbing book, collaboration between Mark and Gordon, to be published independently. Preparation is well under way.
By the way, I should stress that I'm not announcing any imminent retrobolting, or issuing a warning about it. Just helping out by trying to garner some local opinion about what people might actually want. I'm not directly involved in the guidebook, nor any new routing at WQ to speak of, but I do moderate the crag on UKC, and live very local to it, so inevitably I take an interest in what happens there.
LWV sport climbing book, collaboration between Mark and Gordon, to be published independently. Preparation is well under way.
By the way, I should stress that I'm not announcing any imminent retrobolting, or issuing a warning about it. Just helping out by trying to garner some local opinion about what people might actually want. I'm not directly involved in the guidebook, nor any new routing at WQ to speak of, but I do moderate the crag on UKC, and live very local to it, so inevitably I take an interest in what happens there.
In reply to jon:
Hi Jon
FWIW your points are reasonable but I don't think that that's how it will work (or has shown any signs of working) in Wyndcliffe Quarry. The trad there is getting more traffic as the venue gets used more. Quite a few people are happy to take a trad rack for the worthwhile trad routes: I did the other day, and only didn't get on the routes because it was so hot and still.
Hi Jon
FWIW your points are reasonable but I don't think that that's how it will work (or has shown any signs of working) in Wyndcliffe Quarry. The trad there is getting more traffic as the venue gets used more. Quite a few people are happy to take a trad rack for the worthwhile trad routes: I did the other day, and only didn't get on the routes because it was so hot and still.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Unfortunately it seems that in your initial post, the sentence:
"some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted""
has sent the wrong message.
Nothing at the crag NEEDS retrobolting, and nothing there NEEDS to be 'sorted'.
There are a few routes that are partially bolted or totally reliant on dodgey fixed gear and opinions on whether they should be fully bolted or not are what we are after.
Trust us, we really do have enough of our own projects to put money and energy into.
Unfortunately it seems that in your initial post, the sentence:
"some trad lines will inevitably be potential candidates for retrobolting, as part of the process of getting the crag really "sorted""
has sent the wrong message.
Nothing at the crag NEEDS retrobolting, and nothing there NEEDS to be 'sorted'.
There are a few routes that are partially bolted or totally reliant on dodgey fixed gear and opinions on whether they should be fully bolted or not are what we are after.
Trust us, we really do have enough of our own projects to put money and energy into.
Post edited at 15:09
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In reply to ericinbristol:
Yes, and as part of the work for guidebook, at Wyndcliff Quarry, we are restoring all the trad routes as well, part of which is extensively cleaning the loose top outs so as not to kill the belayer and crowds below.
Yes, and as part of the work for guidebook, at Wyndcliff Quarry, we are restoring all the trad routes as well, part of which is extensively cleaning the loose top outs so as not to kill the belayer and crowds below.
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In reply to Urgles:
Indeed and your efforts really are appreciated, thank you for all your hard work.
Indeed and your efforts really are appreciated, thank you for all your hard work.
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In reply to ericinbristol:
Maybe I should have ended my post rather than leaving it hanging with three little dots...
Maybe I should have ended my post rather than leaving it hanging with three little dots...
> (...) because you can get gear in them could well end up being counterproductive... better maybe to maintain a healthy number of trad climbs rather than reducing them. The alternative is, of course, bolting everything which would seem is not what folk think.
In reply to jon:
My response still stands, i.e. while this is plausible, and may be true in some cases, it is not what is happening in this venue. You set up an either/or of not reducing the number of trad routes versus bolting everything. You are assuming that fewer trad routes means less trad traffic. However, I am pleased to say that this is not true for Wyndcliffe Quarry - fewer trad routes (and, as Urgles pointed out, cleaning up those remaining trad routes) and more bolted lines has resulted in more (a lot more) trad climbing being done their overall.
My response still stands, i.e. while this is plausible, and may be true in some cases, it is not what is happening in this venue. You set up an either/or of not reducing the number of trad routes versus bolting everything. You are assuming that fewer trad routes means less trad traffic. However, I am pleased to say that this is not true for Wyndcliffe Quarry - fewer trad routes (and, as Urgles pointed out, cleaning up those remaining trad routes) and more bolted lines has resulted in more (a lot more) trad climbing being done their overall.
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In reply to ericinbristol:
<Quite a few people are happy to take a trad rack for the worthwhile trad routes:>
It's probably worth adding that in this instance the required trad rack is pretty minimal - a moderate bunch of wires and two or three cams, maybe - due to the fact the the routes are all very short and tend to end at a lower-off; I often use a 30m indoor rope there and have yet to find a route for which it's not long enough.
< I did the other day, and only didn't get on the routes because it was so hot and still.>
Are you sure you weren't in Spain? Or did you mean "hot and still raining"!
<Quite a few people are happy to take a trad rack for the worthwhile trad routes:>
It's probably worth adding that in this instance the required trad rack is pretty minimal - a moderate bunch of wires and two or three cams, maybe - due to the fact the the routes are all very short and tend to end at a lower-off; I often use a 30m indoor rope there and have yet to find a route for which it's not long enough.
< I did the other day, and only didn't get on the routes because it was so hot and still.>
Are you sure you weren't in Spain? Or did you mean "hot and still raining"!
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In reply to Ian Parsons:
Mostly true yes re rack/length but Bogger Bob is about 15 metres.
Last week there was a day when it was still and blue sky and it really was too hot. Hard to believe I know but there you go.
Mostly true yes re rack/length but Bogger Bob is about 15 metres.
Last week there was a day when it was still and blue sky and it really was too hot. Hard to believe I know but there you go.
Post edited at 16:03
In reply to bpmclimb:
Looking at the minutes for the last BMC SW Area meeting, it's reported that Gordon is looking at developing the far right of Fly Wall at Wintour's. Is 'developing' a synonym for 'bolting' in this case?
> I daresay - some crags more than others, probably. I can certainly imagine some similar issues cropping up at Woodcroft.
Looking at the minutes for the last BMC SW Area meeting, it's reported that Gordon is looking at developing the far right of Fly Wall at Wintour's. Is 'developing' a synonym for 'bolting' in this case?
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In reply to ericinbristol:
And Bogger Bob now has its original finish restored past a couple of pegs to a tree belay/abseil. No reason for people to cop out at the bolts now!
And Bogger Bob now has its original finish restored past a couple of pegs to a tree belay/abseil. No reason for people to cop out at the bolts now!
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In reply to ericinbristol:
Hah - yes; just re-read the stuff from Gordon. If the tree mentioned is at the top of the crag it must be a bit more than 15m. But Shin Gi Tai is fine on a 30m, so the short version of BB should be as well. Not recommending, of course, that people go with a shorter than usual rope - just using the example to illustrate the modest height of the routes and the consequent minimal additional "faff" of taking the required gear.
> Mostly true yes re rack/length but Bogger Bob is about 15 metres.
Hah - yes; just re-read the stuff from Gordon. If the tree mentioned is at the top of the crag it must be a bit more than 15m. But Shin Gi Tai is fine on a 30m, so the short version of BB should be as well. Not recommending, of course, that people go with a shorter than usual rope - just using the example to illustrate the modest height of the routes and the consequent minimal additional "faff" of taking the required gear.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
No, the bolts have not been moved and can still be clipped from BB. I have always been puzzled as to why there are three belay bolts. Maybe the one closest to BB can at least be chopped.
No, the bolts have not been moved and can still be clipped from BB. I have always been puzzled as to why there are three belay bolts. Maybe the one closest to BB can at least be chopped.
In reply to Urgles:
Ah, well ok, sorry, didn't mean to mislead .......
Actually, to be accurate, I was also inviting opinions about climbs that fall outside the categories you've just mentioned: trad climbs which aren't totally reliant on fixed gear, on which the fixed gear may be adequate, and on which there is no fixed gear at all. In particular, the area around The Charlatan. Like I said, my post was prompted by a conversation with Gordon at WQ the day before, in which that area was specifically mentioned; and the climbs in question subsequently appeared on Gordon's list of suggestions. I didn't mean to be alarmist by referring to climbs as "potential candidates for retrobolting": perhaps I should rephrase with something like "provisionally and tentatively on the radar pending consensus/approval".
> has sent the wrong message.
Ah, well ok, sorry, didn't mean to mislead .......
> There are a few routes that are partially bolted or totally reliant on dodgey fixed gear and opinions on whether they should be fully bolted or not are what we are after.
Actually, to be accurate, I was also inviting opinions about climbs that fall outside the categories you've just mentioned: trad climbs which aren't totally reliant on fixed gear, on which the fixed gear may be adequate, and on which there is no fixed gear at all. In particular, the area around The Charlatan. Like I said, my post was prompted by a conversation with Gordon at WQ the day before, in which that area was specifically mentioned; and the climbs in question subsequently appeared on Gordon's list of suggestions. I didn't mean to be alarmist by referring to climbs as "potential candidates for retrobolting": perhaps I should rephrase with something like "provisionally and tentatively on the radar pending consensus/approval".
In reply to whenry:
Sorry, I don't know anything about that.
> Looking at the minutes for the last BMC SW Area meeting, it's reported that Gordon is looking at developing the far right of Fly Wall at Wintour's. Is 'developing' a synonym for 'bolting' in this case?
Sorry, I don't know anything about that.
In reply to bpmclimb:
The thing is, I think we should be alarmed. There are a number of routes that have been retrobolted (that I know of), seemingly without any discussion, and though I've not been out there since last summer, I'm told that there are other routes that have also been retro'd. I'm planning to head out there on Sunday, so I'll be better placed to look at this then.
There's a clear policy on bolting in place for the Wye Valley, and it seems that people have been reaching for their drills without consulting local climbers. Clearly you're now bringing this up - which I applaud - but are we too late?
> I didn't mean to be alarmist by referring to climbs as "potential candidates for retrobolting": perhaps I should rephrase with something like "provisionally and tentatively on the radar pending consensus/approval".
The thing is, I think we should be alarmed. There are a number of routes that have been retrobolted (that I know of), seemingly without any discussion, and though I've not been out there since last summer, I'm told that there are other routes that have also been retro'd. I'm planning to head out there on Sunday, so I'll be better placed to look at this then.
There's a clear policy on bolting in place for the Wye Valley, and it seems that people have been reaching for their drills without consulting local climbers. Clearly you're now bringing this up - which I applaud - but are we too late?
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In reply to ericinbristol:
If they are still there after this potential development I will remove them myself
If they are still there after this potential development I will remove them myself
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In reply to whenry:
I think you are totally misinformed.
There's a clear policy on bolting in place for the Wye Valley, and it seems that people have been reaching for their drills without consulting local climbers.
Bolted routes are allowed at Wyndcliff quarry.
The only routes that have been retroed there have been done so by the first ascensionist.
There are a number of routes that have been retrobolted (that I know of), seemingly without any discussion...
What climbs are you referring to?
I think you are totally misinformed.
There's a clear policy on bolting in place for the Wye Valley, and it seems that people have been reaching for their drills without consulting local climbers.
Bolted routes are allowed at Wyndcliff quarry.
The only routes that have been retroed there have been done so by the first ascensionist.
There are a number of routes that have been retrobolted (that I know of), seemingly without any discussion...
What climbs are you referring to?
Post edited at 17:34
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I don't have any strong feelings to offer on specific routes, but I definitely am in favour of taking the rational approach (with appropriate discussion) to what should/shouldn't be equipped rather than preserving a mishmash just.... because.
(I will cast another vote for re-arranging the SGT lower-off though, it's just weird where it is.)
I don't have any strong feelings to offer on specific routes, but I definitely am in favour of taking the rational approach (with appropriate discussion) to what should/shouldn't be equipped rather than preserving a mishmash just.... because.
(I will cast another vote for re-arranging the SGT lower-off though, it's just weird where it is.)
In reply to elliptic:
Please remember that sometimes the bolts have to go where the rock is sound and sometimes that is not the optimum place for the climb.
> (I will cast another vote for re-arranging the SGT lower-off though, it's just weird where it is.)
Please remember that sometimes the bolts have to go where the rock is sound and sometimes that is not the optimum place for the climb.
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In reply to Urgles:
Why not? They have been placed so they can be easily clipped halfway through the crux of BB. Which isn't good
Why not? They have been placed so they can be easily clipped halfway through the crux of BB. Which isn't good
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In reply to bpmclimb:
This 'sorting' of the crag. It wouldn't have anything to do with the upcoming production of that 'sport climbing book' would it.
> LWV sport climbing book, collaboration between Mark and Gordon, to be published independently. Preparation is well under way.
This 'sorting' of the crag. It wouldn't have anything to do with the upcoming production of that 'sport climbing book' would it.
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In reply to Andy Say:
Of course it is.
When a new guidebook is produced the crags are given a scrub up and reappraisal.
The last time this happened at WQ was 10 years ago for the Climber's Club LWV guide.
> This 'sorting' of the crag. It wouldn't have anything to do with the upcoming production of that 'sport climbing book' would it.
Of course it is.
When a new guidebook is produced the crags are given a scrub up and reappraisal.
The last time this happened at WQ was 10 years ago for the Climber's Club LWV guide.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
2 I've lead recently and through there not trad as I know it. Empire and Revolution (6c+) is 1 of them. The direct finish is great at 6c+ but to move right or left, which I did to the thread still feels like sport.
The other is The Corrective Party (E2 6a) which has been mentioned. Even though I did it with no pad or rope in first bolt it just doesn't seem like trad to me.
Thanks for all the hard work that has clearly going on at the minute and I'd say it definitely needs a new guide. That's my 2 pence worth anyway.
Luke.
2 I've lead recently and through there not trad as I know it. Empire and Revolution (6c+) is 1 of them. The direct finish is great at 6c+ but to move right or left, which I did to the thread still feels like sport.
The other is The Corrective Party (E2 6a) which has been mentioned. Even though I did it with no pad or rope in first bolt it just doesn't seem like trad to me.
Thanks for all the hard work that has clearly going on at the minute and I'd say it definitely needs a new guide. That's my 2 pence worth anyway.
Luke.
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In reply to ericinbristol:
Thanks
> Indeed and your efforts really are appreciated, thank you for all your hard work.
Thanks
In reply to Urgles:
What trad should be preserved at Wyndcliffe Quarry?
None. Just bolt the lot and stop messing.
Plenty of trad routes in the Valley if that's your thing. Very few sports routes. Time to share the rock a bit more I reckon.
Mark, message me and I'll chip in for some more bolts. And thanks for the great effort from yourself and Gordon.
Mark
What trad should be preserved at Wyndcliffe Quarry?
None. Just bolt the lot and stop messing.
Plenty of trad routes in the Valley if that's your thing. Very few sports routes. Time to share the rock a bit more I reckon.
Mark, message me and I'll chip in for some more bolts. And thanks for the great effort from yourself and Gordon.
Mark
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In reply to Mark Storey:
How well do you know the crag? Do you really think Bogger Bob should be bolted?
How well do you know the crag? Do you really think Bogger Bob should be bolted?
In reply to bpmclimb:
I'm with Mark Storey on this one. And before anyone asks I'm not in favour of sport climbs being old and a trad climber but it is more or less a sport venue already, just finish it off! On a (weakly I'll grant) related note, I was (trad) climbing in the lakes a few weekends ago and did not like the many threads of old tat at the abseil points. What is more unsightly or environmentally damaging, loads of old tat or two lower off points placed in a not visually displeasing spot?
I'm with Mark Storey on this one. And before anyone asks I'm not in favour of sport climbs being old and a trad climber but it is more or less a sport venue already, just finish it off! On a (weakly I'll grant) related note, I was (trad) climbing in the lakes a few weekends ago and did not like the many threads of old tat at the abseil points. What is more unsightly or environmentally damaging, loads of old tat or two lower off points placed in a not visually displeasing spot?
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In reply to Rick Dunning:
There is a modest selection of obviously good strong trad climbs at WQ and I see no reason at all to bolt them.
There is a small handful of semi-bolted, trad graded lines that are being questioned as well as a couple that rely pretty much on rusty pegs.
There is a modest selection of obviously good strong trad climbs at WQ and I see no reason at all to bolt them.
There is a small handful of semi-bolted, trad graded lines that are being questioned as well as a couple that rely pretty much on rusty pegs.
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In reply to Urgles:
I do realise that, at the very least the rusty pegs need to be replaced with bolts, but if a trad route is partially bolted then why not just finish it? I agree that in 99.99% of cases trad routes should not be retro-bolted, but in this case we're talking about few lines surrounded by sports routes. But it was asked 'what trad should be preserved at WQ?' and I would argue it is a sports venue. But I have to admit that I enjoyed the few trad routes I've done there!
I do realise that, at the very least the rusty pegs need to be replaced with bolts, but if a trad route is partially bolted then why not just finish it? I agree that in 99.99% of cases trad routes should not be retro-bolted, but in this case we're talking about few lines surrounded by sports routes. But it was asked 'what trad should be preserved at WQ?' and I would argue it is a sports venue. But I have to admit that I enjoyed the few trad routes I've done there!
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Hi Brian
It strikes me that the routes between Food for Worms and Rotten Corner would make really poor sport climbs (short, a massive ledge halfway and all the interest in the first half) and I think they are better as they are - quirky, bouldery trad climbs. I wouldn't personally have a problem with Chippa, Choppa, Empire and Revolution and The Corrective Party being converted into sport climbs - they all rely almost entirely on bolts already. Insofar as I've done them, I agree with keeping trad all the ones you wanted to keep trad in your original post.
I've mentioned it before, but I have a hunch Still Stuck on You would genuinely be better de-bolted and fully trad - there's gear on that upper wall! I need to go back and do it again with you or Mark to show you what I mean (don't worry, I'm not going to do any unilateral chopping!).
Cheers
Rick
Hi Brian
It strikes me that the routes between Food for Worms and Rotten Corner would make really poor sport climbs (short, a massive ledge halfway and all the interest in the first half) and I think they are better as they are - quirky, bouldery trad climbs. I wouldn't personally have a problem with Chippa, Choppa, Empire and Revolution and The Corrective Party being converted into sport climbs - they all rely almost entirely on bolts already. Insofar as I've done them, I agree with keeping trad all the ones you wanted to keep trad in your original post.
I've mentioned it before, but I have a hunch Still Stuck on You would genuinely be better de-bolted and fully trad - there's gear on that upper wall! I need to go back and do it again with you or Mark to show you what I mean (don't worry, I'm not going to do any unilateral chopping!).
Cheers
Rick
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In reply to Rick Sewards:
Will be there all day and evening weds.
Will hold your ropes
Right, I'm out of here, too much bullshit.
Will be there all day and evening weds.
Will hold your ropes
Right, I'm out of here, too much bullshit.
Post edited at 22:38
In reply to ericinbristol:
How well do you know the crag? Do you really think Bogger Bob should be bolted?
Well it's my nearest crag (10 minutes away) and consequently I know it reasonably well.
'Bogger Bob'. As I said before just bolt the lot and stop messing. I don't get hung up on the trad V sports argument, if most of the routes at a venue are sports routes then make the whole crag a sports crag.
And for those that don't know the crag, until the bolts went in, it was a little back water that was rarely climbed on as most climbers headed for the main cliff.
Mark
How well do you know the crag? Do you really think Bogger Bob should be bolted?
Well it's my nearest crag (10 minutes away) and consequently I know it reasonably well.
'Bogger Bob'. As I said before just bolt the lot and stop messing. I don't get hung up on the trad V sports argument, if most of the routes at a venue are sports routes then make the whole crag a sports crag.
And for those that don't know the crag, until the bolts went in, it was a little back water that was rarely climbed on as most climbers headed for the main cliff.
Mark
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In reply to bpmclimb:
leave all the trad routes alone. Its Trad for a reason. Maybe we should start taking bolts out of routes that were originally very nice tradline?? Replace pegs if need be, just dont ruin it
leave all the trad routes alone. Its Trad for a reason. Maybe we should start taking bolts out of routes that were originally very nice tradline?? Replace pegs if need be, just dont ruin it
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In reply to Rick Sewards:
Hi Rick. I remember your SSOY trad idea. I haven't specifically looked for gear placements above half height though. I'm happy to try it that way sometime.
.... I assume it doesn't count if you push wires through the bolt hangers?
Hi Rick. I remember your SSOY trad idea. I haven't specifically looked for gear placements above half height though. I'm happy to try it that way sometime.
.... I assume it doesn't count if you push wires through the bolt hangers?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I'd like to echo Busy Lizzie's thanks for the work that has been put in, some of the new lines are really worthwhile and amongst the best routes in the quarry, I especially enjoyed Old Men Last Longer (5c) & Gone are the Days (6a)
Personally I have some sympathy with those saying it is now essentially a Sports Crag and should be equipped as such. Perhaps to balance the equation all the bolts on Wintours leap outside Woodcroft quarry could be reconsidered!!
(Just thought I'd stir the hornets)
I'd like to echo Busy Lizzie's thanks for the work that has been put in, some of the new lines are really worthwhile and amongst the best routes in the quarry, I especially enjoyed Old Men Last Longer (5c) & Gone are the Days (6a)
Personally I have some sympathy with those saying it is now essentially a Sports Crag and should be equipped as such. Perhaps to balance the equation all the bolts on Wintours leap outside Woodcroft quarry could be reconsidered!!
(Just thought I'd stir the hornets)
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I can't get too worked up about this. It's an insignificant, grotty, tiny quarry with routes so short that it's hardly worth uncoiling the rope. It's hardly Cloggy or Stanage is it? I do agree with the principle of not retro-bolting trad routes but at this particular venue if the first ascensionist doesn't object neither would I.
Al
I can't get too worked up about this. It's an insignificant, grotty, tiny quarry with routes so short that it's hardly worth uncoiling the rope. It's hardly Cloggy or Stanage is it? I do agree with the principle of not retro-bolting trad routes but at this particular venue if the first ascensionist doesn't object neither would I.
Al
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Hi Brian. Long time no see since moving away.
My two penneth having done a fair number of both at te quarry and liking the place is to leave as is. New sport is one thing. Leave the trad alone. The grotty routes won't be improved by bolting.
Hi Brian. Long time no see since moving away.
My two penneth having done a fair number of both at te quarry and liking the place is to leave as is. New sport is one thing. Leave the trad alone. The grotty routes won't be improved by bolting.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I've made my feelings about this known on another thread and got called an idiot by someone!
So I'll make them known here also...............Leave the trad alone.
I've made my feelings about this known on another thread and got called an idiot by someone!
So I'll make them known here also...............Leave the trad alone.
Post edited at 15:04
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In reply to brew_guru:
As you're asking for opinions, I'd also say just leave the routes as they are.
As an aside, a few people have stated along the lines of "If a route has a bolt in it, then it should be completely bolted up."
I can see where this idea leads (think of the Rainbow Slab with this logic applied), but where does it come from?
As you're asking for opinions, I'd also say just leave the routes as they are.
As an aside, a few people have stated along the lines of "If a route has a bolt in it, then it should be completely bolted up."
I can see where this idea leads (think of the Rainbow Slab with this logic applied), but where does it come from?
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In reply to edwardwoodward:
No, I don't get that either, applied as some sort of general rule. The route could be very trad in nature except for that one place.
However, as I said above, I believe it's realistic to view some routes as incompletely bolted sport climbs (despite them having to get a UK trad grade because of grading protocol). When we consider two or more bolts, on a steep and very short route, which is always climbed with just quickdraws, but necessitates a clipstick, then surely we're talking about a sport route in all but name.
As a matter of interest: to the fair number climbers who have posted on this thread (with whom I agree in principle) saying leave the trad alone: do you mean everything which currently gets a trad grade, regardless, or do you allow for a separate category for what are (arguably) incompletely bolted sport routes? And, if so, is it possible to agree on which specific routes they are?
> As an aside, a few people have stated along the lines of "If a route has a bolt in it, then it should be completely bolted up."
No, I don't get that either, applied as some sort of general rule. The route could be very trad in nature except for that one place.
However, as I said above, I believe it's realistic to view some routes as incompletely bolted sport climbs (despite them having to get a UK trad grade because of grading protocol). When we consider two or more bolts, on a steep and very short route, which is always climbed with just quickdraws, but necessitates a clipstick, then surely we're talking about a sport route in all but name.
As a matter of interest: to the fair number climbers who have posted on this thread (with whom I agree in principle) saying leave the trad alone: do you mean everything which currently gets a trad grade, regardless, or do you allow for a separate category for what are (arguably) incompletely bolted sport routes? And, if so, is it possible to agree on which specific routes they are?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I can see why the odd trad route following clear crack lines (Bogger Bob and Canine Crack) will have their fans and should be left but I really dislike hybrid routes, partially bolted routes, routes with ersatz bold starts and bendy, rusty old pegs. If a route is a sport route (or usually climbed as one) then it ought to be properly and safely bolted as far as the rock allows.
I can see why the odd trad route following clear crack lines (Bogger Bob and Canine Crack) will have their fans and should be left but I really dislike hybrid routes, partially bolted routes, routes with ersatz bold starts and bendy, rusty old pegs. If a route is a sport route (or usually climbed as one) then it ought to be properly and safely bolted as far as the rock allows.
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In reply to pasbury:
Suggestion:
Step 1) pull all the fixed gear without 'historical' value (threads, pegs, crappy aid bolts, but not rusty ironwork or spanners).
Step 2) consider what is still a good trad routes and what is now E9 4a (exaggeration).
Benefits: 1) leaves nice clean pure trad routes for those who want to trad. 2) genuinely unsuitable for 'pure' trad routes can be bolted for those who want sport.
Suggestion:
Step 1) pull all the fixed gear without 'historical' value (threads, pegs, crappy aid bolts, but not rusty ironwork or spanners).
Step 2) consider what is still a good trad routes and what is now E9 4a (exaggeration).
Benefits: 1) leaves nice clean pure trad routes for those who want to trad. 2) genuinely unsuitable for 'pure' trad routes can be bolted for those who want sport.
Post edited at 13:02
In reply to Rick Sewards:
Ok, having got on it last night, I have to eat a little humble pie and say Still Stuck on You without the bolts would be more serious than I thought - possibly E1 5a - and more to the point more serious than I was prepared to do at the time and so I ended up clipping the bolts after all! (it's early in the season, it was getting dark, there was a touch of rain in the air, excuses excuses...) If the thread placement at the top of the big concretion were solid it would be a different matter but it sounds hollow, and for the next move all the handholds and footholds are on stuck-on concretions. I don't have a strong view on it but I'm not going to pursue the argument that it should be debolted, particularly given that it was never a bolt-free climb.
Cheers
Rick
Ok, having got on it last night, I have to eat a little humble pie and say Still Stuck on You without the bolts would be more serious than I thought - possibly E1 5a - and more to the point more serious than I was prepared to do at the time and so I ended up clipping the bolts after all! (it's early in the season, it was getting dark, there was a touch of rain in the air, excuses excuses...) If the thread placement at the top of the big concretion were solid it would be a different matter but it sounds hollow, and for the next move all the handholds and footholds are on stuck-on concretions. I don't have a strong view on it but I'm not going to pursue the argument that it should be debolted, particularly given that it was never a bolt-free climb.
Cheers
Rick
In reply to pasbury:
I agree with everything you say; however, I can think of routes at WQ which fall somewhat between your implied categories; i.e. of lesser quality than BB or CC, not following such strong features, but still definitely trad, either with the odd peg/thread, or with no fixed gear at all. Examples:
1) Incompletely bolted sport routes: The Corrective Party (definitely), Chippa and Choppa (fewer bolts, but very probably, given the nature of the routes).
2) Definite quality trad: e.g. BB and CC.
3) Lesser quality trad with the odd peg/thread: Nice and Dry (2 old pegs, near each other), The Charlatan (no fixed gear), Little Plums (1 peg which now appears to have gone), Rotten Corner (2 threads).
The first two categories will, I believe, be no-brainers for most; it's the third category that's likely to be more contentious. My own feeling is that those routes should stay trad. I will reclimb them over the next few days, specifically to see if there alternative gear placements around the old/missing pegs.
> I can see why the odd trad route following clear crack lines (Bogger Bob and Canine Crack) will have their fans and should be left but I really dislike hybrid routes, partially bolted routes, routes with ersatz bold starts and bendy, rusty old pegs. If a route is a sport route (or usually climbed as one) then it ought to be properly and safely bolted as far as the rock allows.
I agree with everything you say; however, I can think of routes at WQ which fall somewhat between your implied categories; i.e. of lesser quality than BB or CC, not following such strong features, but still definitely trad, either with the odd peg/thread, or with no fixed gear at all. Examples:
1) Incompletely bolted sport routes: The Corrective Party (definitely), Chippa and Choppa (fewer bolts, but very probably, given the nature of the routes).
2) Definite quality trad: e.g. BB and CC.
3) Lesser quality trad with the odd peg/thread: Nice and Dry (2 old pegs, near each other), The Charlatan (no fixed gear), Little Plums (1 peg which now appears to have gone), Rotten Corner (2 threads).
The first two categories will, I believe, be no-brainers for most; it's the third category that's likely to be more contentious. My own feeling is that those routes should stay trad. I will reclimb them over the next few days, specifically to see if there alternative gear placements around the old/missing pegs.
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In reply to Rick Sewards:
Did a quick top-rope of it yesterday after climbing One Tooth, to check out the gear ...
My impression was that the thread was pretty massive and solid, and a little higher up just to the right there's a nice slot for a smallish nut. However, I suppose you never know for sure with concretions, and if you fell while clipping the nut, and the concretion snapped, you'd probably deck.
Did a quick top-rope of it yesterday after climbing One Tooth, to check out the gear ...
My impression was that the thread was pretty massive and solid, and a little higher up just to the right there's a nice slot for a smallish nut. However, I suppose you never know for sure with concretions, and if you fell while clipping the nut, and the concretion snapped, you'd probably deck.
In reply to Rick Dunning:
Doing a quick count from my latest WQ print-out, updated this week, there are 36 trad routes out of a total of 109 routes. In other words, over 30% trad. That is a significant proportion, by any reasonable description.
Ah yes, I hear you say, but there are far more ascents of the sport routes. Well, they are very likely to be in the majority, but the number of trad ascents is greater than you might think. The best indicator available, the closest thing we have to reliable stats, are the UKC logbooks - if you can be bothered, check out some of the figures.
Ah yes (I hope not to hear you say), but those figures are not representative, because tradders are more likely to log their ascents on UKC. Well, there's no basis for that whatsoever, and it could equally well be the other way round.
> it is more or less a sport venue already, just finish it off!
Doing a quick count from my latest WQ print-out, updated this week, there are 36 trad routes out of a total of 109 routes. In other words, over 30% trad. That is a significant proportion, by any reasonable description.
Ah yes, I hear you say, but there are far more ascents of the sport routes. Well, they are very likely to be in the majority, but the number of trad ascents is greater than you might think. The best indicator available, the closest thing we have to reliable stats, are the UKC logbooks - if you can be bothered, check out some of the figures.
Ah yes (I hope not to hear you say), but those figures are not representative, because tradders are more likely to log their ascents on UKC. Well, there's no basis for that whatsoever, and it could equally well be the other way round.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I think the venue should influence the value judgements made. For example nobody would suggest retrobolting the rainbow of recalcitrance cos history and special qualities of the route.
Wyndcliffe quarry isn't the rainbow slab, it has it's own merits and, for me, they don't include the great wealth of quality trad routes. It is a good popular sport venue for those of us that like that sort of thing. I had a wander around there today after work and the new cleaned and bolted stuff looks OK. It fulfils a purpose and would otherwise be a right grotty quarry with some shit trad routes (and two good ones).
So bolt all the doubtful stuff!!
I think the venue should influence the value judgements made. For example nobody would suggest retrobolting the rainbow of recalcitrance cos history and special qualities of the route.
Wyndcliffe quarry isn't the rainbow slab, it has it's own merits and, for me, they don't include the great wealth of quality trad routes. It is a good popular sport venue for those of us that like that sort of thing. I had a wander around there today after work and the new cleaned and bolted stuff looks OK. It fulfils a purpose and would otherwise be a right grotty quarry with some shit trad routes (and two good ones).
So bolt all the doubtful stuff!!
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In reply to bpmclimb:
There are too many variables involved in that judgment for my liking. Why short? How short? Why steep? How steep? When is a clipstick necessary? (Some climbers might be happy to climb without gear to a high first bolt while others won't.)
Personally, I'd say the former because it's hard to definitively categorise an "incompletely bolted sport route".
> No, I don't get that either, applied as some sort of general rule. The route could be very trad in nature except for that one place.
> However, as I said above, I believe it's realistic to view some routes as incompletely bolted sport climbs (despite them having to get a UK trad grade because of grading protocol). When we consider two or more bolts, on a steep and very short route, which is always climbed with just quickdraws, but necessitates a clipstick, then surely we're talking about a sport route in all but name.
There are too many variables involved in that judgment for my liking. Why short? How short? Why steep? How steep? When is a clipstick necessary? (Some climbers might be happy to climb without gear to a high first bolt while others won't.)
> As a matter of interest: to the fair number climbers who have posted on this thread (with whom I agree in principle) saying leave the trad alone: do you mean everything which currently gets a trad grade, regardless, or do you allow for a separate category for what are (arguably) incompletely bolted sport routes?
Personally, I'd say the former because it's hard to definitively categorise an "incompletely bolted sport route".
In reply to bpmclimb:
Sonny bolt the trad for me would mean no new bolts please. If some feel like incomplete sports routes to some they may not to others.
Sonny bolt the trad for me would mean no new bolts please. If some feel like incomplete sports routes to some they may not to others.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Thinking about it I think it doesn't really matter what we say. Given that BB has a lower off in the middle of its crux, the start of Mark my Words has been bolted, Shadows run black has been fully bolted it seems to me the developers will just do as they please
Thinking about it I think it doesn't really matter what we say. Given that BB has a lower off in the middle of its crux, the start of Mark my Words has been bolted, Shadows run black has been fully bolted it seems to me the developers will just do as they please
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In reply to Cheese Monkey:
I don't think the situation is as grim as you describe. Despite the cases you mention, I know that the "developers" are taking note of what climbers are posting on here, as well as consulting with FAs.
Today I reclimbed the routes from Rotten Corner to Nice and Dry. Here's my take on them, for what it's worth:
Rotten Corner: Severe 4a (or low 4b) Two in-situ threads (reasonable small cam slot between the threads for the nervous). Keep it trad.
Little Plums VS 4c: suspect peg has been removed. It's not necessary anyway - I placed three good wires around the same area. I also led a variation finish starting up Little Plums; then pulling straight over the little overhang and climbing the rib. Traverse left to LP lower-off (but may get its own). Bold second half but more runners will be available after a clean. HVS 4c on the day but will probably settle down to VS. No need for bolt runners on either route.
The Charlatan: nice bold 5a sequence on lower slab, merges with finish of LP. Bolts would spoil it, IMO.
Nice and Dry HVS 5a: three old pegs protect adequately; but these mean that the route is essentially a clip up - there's no other gear worth talking about; therefore, I wouldn't have any problem with this being bolted. There's potential for a straight up finish and separate lower-off.
I don't think the situation is as grim as you describe. Despite the cases you mention, I know that the "developers" are taking note of what climbers are posting on here, as well as consulting with FAs.
Today I reclimbed the routes from Rotten Corner to Nice and Dry. Here's my take on them, for what it's worth:
Rotten Corner: Severe 4a (or low 4b) Two in-situ threads (reasonable small cam slot between the threads for the nervous). Keep it trad.
Little Plums VS 4c: suspect peg has been removed. It's not necessary anyway - I placed three good wires around the same area. I also led a variation finish starting up Little Plums; then pulling straight over the little overhang and climbing the rib. Traverse left to LP lower-off (but may get its own). Bold second half but more runners will be available after a clean. HVS 4c on the day but will probably settle down to VS. No need for bolt runners on either route.
The Charlatan: nice bold 5a sequence on lower slab, merges with finish of LP. Bolts would spoil it, IMO.
Nice and Dry HVS 5a: three old pegs protect adequately; but these mean that the route is essentially a clip up - there's no other gear worth talking about; therefore, I wouldn't have any problem with this being bolted. There's potential for a straight up finish and separate lower-off.
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In reply to Urgles:
Bolted routes are allowed - I had thought (mistakenly, having since checked the policy in the CC guide) that consent was needed for retro'ing beyond the FA.
The routes that have been retroed are:
Empire & Revolution
Shadows Run Black
Fishy Flavours
and from our quick look at the crag last weekend, we thought that Mark My Words seemed to be effectively bolted too.
Sure, officially Fishy Flavours hasn't been bolted, and the bolts belong to the rebolted arête of Arete de Resurrection, but since you can clip the bolts without straying off the line or any effort, I'd say it's been retroed. Equally, I'm sure (as per my comment on the other thread) that the E&R Direct is the same as E&R (though I appreciate that neither you nor Gordon were responsible for E&R Direct).
I should add that the newly bolted route we did at the weekend was a good addition to the crag, and it's good to have some new and polish-free routes there. I'm not in favour of bolting the existing trad lines though, and I'd argue strongly that Arete de Resurrection should be debolted (again) to leave Fishy Flavours bolt free.
Bolted routes are allowed - I had thought (mistakenly, having since checked the policy in the CC guide) that consent was needed for retro'ing beyond the FA.
The routes that have been retroed are:
Empire & Revolution
Shadows Run Black
Fishy Flavours
and from our quick look at the crag last weekend, we thought that Mark My Words seemed to be effectively bolted too.
Sure, officially Fishy Flavours hasn't been bolted, and the bolts belong to the rebolted arête of Arete de Resurrection, but since you can clip the bolts without straying off the line or any effort, I'd say it's been retroed. Equally, I'm sure (as per my comment on the other thread) that the E&R Direct is the same as E&R (though I appreciate that neither you nor Gordon were responsible for E&R Direct).
I should add that the newly bolted route we did at the weekend was a good addition to the crag, and it's good to have some new and polish-free routes there. I'm not in favour of bolting the existing trad lines though, and I'd argue strongly that Arete de Resurrection should be debolted (again) to leave Fishy Flavours bolt free.
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In reply to whenry:
Exactly seeing how these have been retroed without any discussion I'm aware of it seems to me they don't give a damn
Exactly seeing how these have been retroed without any discussion I'm aware of it seems to me they don't give a damn
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In reply to Urgles:
Probably not as much as I appreciate the work of people developing new independent sport lines at WCQ
Probably not as much as I appreciate the work of people developing new independent sport lines at WCQ
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In reply to Urgles:
Yes I have. Several times. Not sure what that has to do with retro bolting
Yes I have. Several times. Not sure what that has to do with retro bolting
Post edited at 09:17
In reply to whenry:
I also questioned this, and much discussion ensued! I think the problem is one particular bolt - near the top of the FF flake (and bang in your face as you do the moves). I find its position rather blatant, and just plain wrong - IMO it should be removed and an alternative placed further left (ideally around the left side of the arete). The other bolts on Arete de Resurrection, which is quite a good little route, are out of reach from FF, so the routes could then coexist.
I made my opinion very clear about this. Currently, I don't know if the plan is to move the offending bolt or not.
> Sure, officially Fishy Flavours hasn't been bolted, and the bolts belong to the rebolted arête of Arete de Resurrection, but since you can clip the bolts without straying off the line or any effort, I'd say it's been retroed.
I'd argue strongly that Arete de Resurrection should be debolted (again) to leave Fishy Flavours bolt free.I also questioned this, and much discussion ensued! I think the problem is one particular bolt - near the top of the FF flake (and bang in your face as you do the moves). I find its position rather blatant, and just plain wrong - IMO it should be removed and an alternative placed further left (ideally around the left side of the arete). The other bolts on Arete de Resurrection, which is quite a good little route, are out of reach from FF, so the routes could then coexist.
I made my opinion very clear about this. Currently, I don't know if the plan is to move the offending bolt or not.
In reply to whenry:
I do think the phrase should be 'Bolted NEW routes are allowed'; but that's just me being pedantic.
> Bolted routes are allowed
I do think the phrase should be 'Bolted NEW routes are allowed'; but that's just me being pedantic.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
To be honest I do think it needs to be overtly stated. It is easy to read 'bolted routes are allowed' as 'bolting routes is allowed'. Hence the number of posts above and on other threads saying, 'its a sport crag - bolt it all'.
I've absolutely no problem with folks bolting new routes that can't be protected with trad gear however.
To be honest I do think it needs to be overtly stated. It is easy to read 'bolted routes are allowed' as 'bolting routes is allowed'. Hence the number of posts above and on other threads saying, 'its a sport crag - bolt it all'.
I've absolutely no problem with folks bolting new routes that can't be protected with trad gear however.
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In reply to Cheese Monkey:
To the bolt fund for the new routes at Wyndcliff Quarry. That's what I meant.
To the bolt fund for the new routes at Wyndcliff Quarry. That's what I meant.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Arete de Resurrection has now been debolted.
that includes the original rogue bolt on FF that we made safer and the extra bolt at the (very dodgy) lower off.
Fill yer boots.
Arete de Resurrection has now been debolted.
that includes the original rogue bolt on FF that we made safer and the extra bolt at the (very dodgy) lower off.
Fill yer boots.
In reply to whom it may concern:
I would like to make it clear that we didn't have the intention of independently retroing anything at WQ for the new guide.
I personally don't give an arse about retroing at WQ but as we were doing all the work on the new routes we did want to see if any climbers who use the crag may think some shitty trad line may be better off with bolts in.
Arete de Resuurection/Fishy Fingers was something we discussed and seemed ok as we basically replaced an existing dodgy bolt on FF.
Now then, nothing is going to be retroed. End of.
Gordon Jenkin has and may retro his lines if he wishes (remember routes such as Mr Whippy were effectively retroed a while back).
Tony Penning gave his permission to retro Mark My Words ( I met him there today and he said it would be better off retroed). But it isnt going to be. It shares the same start as one of Gordon's routes.
Enough.
I would like to make it clear that we didn't have the intention of independently retroing anything at WQ for the new guide.
I personally don't give an arse about retroing at WQ but as we were doing all the work on the new routes we did want to see if any climbers who use the crag may think some shitty trad line may be better off with bolts in.
Arete de Resuurection/Fishy Fingers was something we discussed and seemed ok as we basically replaced an existing dodgy bolt on FF.
Now then, nothing is going to be retroed. End of.
Gordon Jenkin has and may retro his lines if he wishes (remember routes such as Mr Whippy were effectively retroed a while back).
Tony Penning gave his permission to retro Mark My Words ( I met him there today and he said it would be better off retroed). But it isnt going to be. It shares the same start as one of Gordon's routes.
Enough.
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In reply to whenry:
Yes that is true.
Dont know who did that.
Gordon's own route.
Hasn't really, already had a bolt in it, we thought what we did was ok but have now debolted and will review.
Tony Penning (FA) gave his permission.
> Bolted routes are allowed - I had thought (mistakenly, having since checked the policy in the CC guide) that consent was needed for retro'ing beyond the FA.
Yes that is true.
> The routes that have been retroed are:
> Empire & Revolution
Dont know who did that.
> Shadows Run Black
Gordon's own route.
> Fishy Flavours
Hasn't really, already had a bolt in it, we thought what we did was ok but have now debolted and will review.
> and from our quick look at the crag last weekend, we thought that Mark My Words seemed to be effectively bolted too.
Tony Penning (FA) gave his permission.
In reply to Urgles:
Why that one? No-one's likely to object to the lower-off being made safer.
> and the extra bolt at the (very dodgy) lower off.
Why that one? No-one's likely to object to the lower-off being made safer.
In reply to bpmclimb:
I went once and did a mixture of sport and trad. Don't have much of an opinion, but I think the stuff on the lower tier that is 100% fixed gear would be no great loss to traditional climbing if it got bolted. Canine Crack is a great E1 and would make no sense as a sport route to me. Overall it seemed like a pretty mediocre venue and if it's the kind of day where you end up at Wyndcliffe Quarry you'll probably just be happy to get in any climbing of any sort - but I understand there's a "thin end of the wedge" argument to be made when considering gridbolting the whole thing?
I went once and did a mixture of sport and trad. Don't have much of an opinion, but I think the stuff on the lower tier that is 100% fixed gear would be no great loss to traditional climbing if it got bolted. Canine Crack is a great E1 and would make no sense as a sport route to me. Overall it seemed like a pretty mediocre venue and if it's the kind of day where you end up at Wyndcliffe Quarry you'll probably just be happy to get in any climbing of any sort - but I understand there's a "thin end of the wedge" argument to be made when considering gridbolting the whole thing?
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In reply to Urgles:
Since I'm one of those concerned about not compromising FF, I'm happy to pay for a hanger and nut to make the lower-off safer.
Since I'm one of those concerned about not compromising FF, I'm happy to pay for a hanger and nut to make the lower-off safer.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
But then you can clip it before executing the testing crux sequence and thus compromising the purity of this fine trad test piece.
But then you can clip it before executing the testing crux sequence and thus compromising the purity of this fine trad test piece.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I was.
I was.
In reply to Urgles:
But still reachable before the mantel? Can't quite visualise it - I'll have another look.
BTW I noticed a lower-off on the steep wall just right of the steep part of Mark My Words. Seems quite low. Is that as high as the route now goes?
But still reachable before the mantel? Can't quite visualise it - I'll have another look.
BTW I noticed a lower-off on the steep wall just right of the steep part of Mark My Words. Seems quite low. Is that as high as the route now goes?
Post edited at 08:57
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Yes.
> BTW I noticed a lower-off on the steep wall just right of the steep part of Mark My Words. Seems quite low. Is that as high as the route now goes?
Yes.
In reply to ericinbristol, and others:
I think that this, at least, can be answered fairly simply by looking back at the order of events. Feel free to jump in with a correction if I've got anything wrong.
- FA of Bogger Bob, to a lower-off just below the top (the old tatty one, possibly in unstable rock).
- FA of Shin Gi Tai (original version); not sure whether it used BB's lower-off or went to the top (don't have guidebooks handy).
- Presumably due to the worrying state of BB's lower-off and the rock thereabouts, a new two-bolt lower-off was added in sound rock lower down; there was a specific note about this somewhere at the time - probably on wyeclimb.com.
- Shin Gi Tai converted into a sport route, leaving out the unstable stuff at the top; it was a long stretch left to the BB lower-off bolts - which would also have made stripping the route more awkward - so a third one was added to their right.
It wasn't the equipping of SGT that added the bolts to BB; the two on the left were already there on their own account.
The extended version of Bogger Bob to the (presumably solid) tree sounds like the ideal solution, assuming a substantial fixed lower-off attached to prevent abseil damage to the tree and to avoid any unnecessary wandering about on the overlying slopes with people underneath; I've never been up there but I'm guessing that it's not the most stable terrain thereabouts. That would make the leftmost bolt redundant so its removal would certainly seem logical; anyone wishing to do the short version could, I'm sure, still manage to reach the remaining bolts - and if that involved a bit of aid it wouldn't "matter" because, as far as BB Minor was concerned, one would have already reached the top. Or maybe the two leftmost bolts might be removed, with another added to the right of the third to better serve Shin Gi Tai. [I'm assuming that there isn't some ambitious Plan B (or whatever) to "clean off" the top of SGT and find it its own tree atop the crag; what with the main road below, and everything, I wouldn't want to be involved in the "cleaning"!]
> No, can still be clipped from BB. I have always been puzzled as to why there are three belay bolts.,
I think that this, at least, can be answered fairly simply by looking back at the order of events. Feel free to jump in with a correction if I've got anything wrong.
- FA of Bogger Bob, to a lower-off just below the top (the old tatty one, possibly in unstable rock).
- FA of Shin Gi Tai (original version); not sure whether it used BB's lower-off or went to the top (don't have guidebooks handy).
- Presumably due to the worrying state of BB's lower-off and the rock thereabouts, a new two-bolt lower-off was added in sound rock lower down; there was a specific note about this somewhere at the time - probably on wyeclimb.com.
- Shin Gi Tai converted into a sport route, leaving out the unstable stuff at the top; it was a long stretch left to the BB lower-off bolts - which would also have made stripping the route more awkward - so a third one was added to their right.
It wasn't the equipping of SGT that added the bolts to BB; the two on the left were already there on their own account.
The extended version of Bogger Bob to the (presumably solid) tree sounds like the ideal solution, assuming a substantial fixed lower-off attached to prevent abseil damage to the tree and to avoid any unnecessary wandering about on the overlying slopes with people underneath; I've never been up there but I'm guessing that it's not the most stable terrain thereabouts. That would make the leftmost bolt redundant so its removal would certainly seem logical; anyone wishing to do the short version could, I'm sure, still manage to reach the remaining bolts - and if that involved a bit of aid it wouldn't "matter" because, as far as BB Minor was concerned, one would have already reached the top. Or maybe the two leftmost bolts might be removed, with another added to the right of the third to better serve Shin Gi Tai. [I'm assuming that there isn't some ambitious Plan B (or whatever) to "clean off" the top of SGT and find it its own tree atop the crag; what with the main road below, and everything, I wouldn't want to be involved in the "cleaning"!]
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In reply to Ian Parsons:
I think the problem with some of these Wyndcliff Quarry die hard trad fanatics is that they don't realise why lower offs were put on some of the trad routes in the first place. They are there to stop climbers accessing the top slopes and almost inevitably knocking big blocks down onto both of the tiers (and possibly road) below, in the process taking out their belayer plus all the sport climbers and maybe even a cyclist, car and lorry.
I think the problem with some of these Wyndcliff Quarry die hard trad fanatics is that they don't realise why lower offs were put on some of the trad routes in the first place. They are there to stop climbers accessing the top slopes and almost inevitably knocking big blocks down onto both of the tiers (and possibly road) below, in the process taking out their belayer plus all the sport climbers and maybe even a cyclist, car and lorry.
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In reply to Urgles:
I wonder to what extent this applies to Bogger Bob, specifically. Nobody seems to be complaining about lower-offs on any of the other trad routes. Presumably the top-outs aren't all equally unstable: is the terrain crossed by the BB original finish very dangerous? I haven't been beyond the new lower-off myself.
> They are there to stop climbers accessing the top slopes and almost inevitably knocking big blocks down onto both of the tiers (and possibly road) below, in the process taking out their belayer plus all the sport climbers and maybe even a cyclist, car and lorry.
I wonder to what extent this applies to Bogger Bob, specifically. Nobody seems to be complaining about lower-offs on any of the other trad routes. Presumably the top-outs aren't all equally unstable: is the terrain crossed by the BB original finish very dangerous? I haven't been beyond the new lower-off myself.
In reply to bpmclimb:
I did it last night before the rains hit and there was nothing obvious that was loose. I never bothered lowering off from the top tho. Just down climbed to the Sgt lower off. Really good moves up high.
Luke.
I did it last night before the rains hit and there was nothing obvious that was loose. I never bothered lowering off from the top tho. Just down climbed to the Sgt lower off. Really good moves up high.
Luke.
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In reply to luke glaister:
None. Man up and do them the original way. There is plenty of rock out there for those who are not brave enough. That includes me.,
Why do we have to drag everything down to our own selfish levels just so more people can play?
Plain selfish.
Safety is irrelevant, if you won't risk it do something else.
None. Man up and do them the original way. There is plenty of rock out there for those who are not brave enough. That includes me.,
Why do we have to drag everything down to our own selfish levels just so more people can play?
Plain selfish.
Safety is irrelevant, if you won't risk it do something else.
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