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When climbing in north Devon on the Culm Coast, it's noticable that a lot of routes that were graded with pegs as protection are now either pretty run out, or are effectively solos. Obviously the pegs are going to rust away fairly quickly on sea cliffs, but should they be replaced?
Or do the routes just get re-graded once the pegs have gone?
Or do the routes just get re-graded once the pegs have gone?
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In reply to JackM92:
My understanding is that some do get replaced but most don't.
Some routes, now tamed with modern pro, are unaffected by non-replacement while others get grade reappraised (eg Eroica)
I do think that routes where pegs are key to protection - Crimptyphon @ Compass Point for eg - should get pegs updated. Eroica too, since I'd love to do it, but not in current condition.
My understanding is that some do get replaced but most don't.
Some routes, now tamed with modern pro, are unaffected by non-replacement while others get grade reappraised (eg Eroica)
I do think that routes where pegs are key to protection - Crimptyphon @ Compass Point for eg - should get pegs updated. Eroica too, since I'd love to do it, but not in current condition.
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In reply to JackM92:
Last time I checked, the general consensus was not to replace pegs anywhere on Cornish and Devon cliffs. This was the conclusion of multiple, very long winded BMC access meetings as far as I can remember. That's not to say replacing pegs still doesn't happen though, I suspect a few get changed over here and there.
In regards to routes now being run out, new guides will take that into account, but we don't get so much traffic down there so guides generally are quite spaced. Local knowledge rules in them there parts.
Last time I checked, the general consensus was not to replace pegs anywhere on Cornish and Devon cliffs. This was the conclusion of multiple, very long winded BMC access meetings as far as I can remember. That's not to say replacing pegs still doesn't happen though, I suspect a few get changed over here and there.
In regards to routes now being run out, new guides will take that into account, but we don't get so much traffic down there so guides generally are quite spaced. Local knowledge rules in them there parts.
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In reply to JackM92:
I've always carried a few when in the less frequenting areas of the Culm.
You never know for sure...
I've always carried a few when in the less frequenting areas of the Culm.
You never know for sure...
In reply to Owen W-G:
Eroica peg is probably impossible to replace like for like. See my photo gallery for what remains of it! It's probably impossible to extract the stub and there's no space for a new peg (in fact there were two or three stubs from memory). So unless there's a bolt placed (not something I'd advocate and it won't last long before someone chops it!!!), it's E3 or E4 6a, depending on where you belay below the flake overlap on P1, the fall factor isn't too bad; if you belay on top of the flake, it's close to an F2 fall, though there's a good nut to fall on - it's just that it's level with the belay. It's only one 6a move by the way, though it's a pretty exciting snatch and even though the moves above are easier (5b), they still feel pretty exciting as there's no gear for a little while! Great route.
Eroica peg is probably impossible to replace like for like. See my photo gallery for what remains of it! It's probably impossible to extract the stub and there's no space for a new peg (in fact there were two or three stubs from memory). So unless there's a bolt placed (not something I'd advocate and it won't last long before someone chops it!!!), it's E3 or E4 6a, depending on where you belay below the flake overlap on P1, the fall factor isn't too bad; if you belay on top of the flake, it's close to an F2 fall, though there's a good nut to fall on - it's just that it's level with the belay. It's only one 6a move by the way, though it's a pretty exciting snatch and even though the moves above are easier (5b), they still feel pretty exciting as there's no gear for a little while! Great route.
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In reply to Misha:
Aye, I was belaying on that occasion and I have never been so scared on a belay (didn't help the belay niche is sitting on a flake that looks to be peeling off, which leaves 3 ropey cams in a flaring break at shoulder height) - and that includes some pretty crap winter ones.
Aye, I was belaying on that occasion and I have never been so scared on a belay (didn't help the belay niche is sitting on a flake that looks to be peeling off, which leaves 3 ropey cams in a flaring break at shoulder height) - and that includes some pretty crap winter ones.
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In reply to JackM92:
I think quite a few knifeblade placements would take ball-nuts which weren't invented when the routes were first pegged up, those should have the pegs removed whilst they still can be and the relevant ball-nut size put in guidebook descriptions as they're not a common piece of rack yet.
If a peg goes but can't be replaced then a re-grade is in order.
> Obviously the pegs are going to rust away fairly quickly on sea cliffs, but should they be replaced?
> Or do the routes just get re-graded once the pegs have gone?
> Or do the routes just get re-graded once the pegs have gone?
I think quite a few knifeblade placements would take ball-nuts which weren't invented when the routes were first pegged up, those should have the pegs removed whilst they still can be and the relevant ball-nut size put in guidebook descriptions as they're not a common piece of rack yet.
If a peg goes but can't be replaced then a re-grade is in order.
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In reply to JackM92:
For me, the quicker all pegs in the UK disappear the better... Using pre-existing fixed gear is entirely counter to the self-reliance ethic of trad in my opinion (others hold other well-reasoned opinions).
You generally know where you stand with a bolt; it is sufficiently bomber that it can be trusted (if not, it should be replaced or removed!). All other fixed gear is either usually either unnecessary (threads) or untrustworthy (pegs you didn't place yourself). When you place gear, be it a nut, a cam or indeed a peg you can use your skill to judge how good the nut placement is. You can't really do the same with a fixed peg (unless it is obviously rusty and terrible).
For me, the quicker all pegs in the UK disappear the better... Using pre-existing fixed gear is entirely counter to the self-reliance ethic of trad in my opinion (others hold other well-reasoned opinions).
You generally know where you stand with a bolt; it is sufficiently bomber that it can be trusted (if not, it should be replaced or removed!). All other fixed gear is either usually either unnecessary (threads) or untrustworthy (pegs you didn't place yourself). When you place gear, be it a nut, a cam or indeed a peg you can use your skill to judge how good the nut placement is. You can't really do the same with a fixed peg (unless it is obviously rusty and terrible).
Post edited at 15:31
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In reply to The Green Giant:
Not quite correct this. West penwith has a policy of no fixed protection being placed or replaced. The culm and Atlantic coast is slightly different. The general consensus is this; if a route has fixed gear and no modern protection can replace it then it could be replaced. The removal of pegs after new routes have been climbed could save the placement for others. It would be poor form to place pegs where others have not needed them.
Some of the more adventurous culm offerings are reliant on pegs. All pegs should be backed up where possible. Individuals must be able to make careful assessments of the dangers of reliance upon all protection in these more adventurous locations. A ball rock should be treated with great caution on the culm due to small surface area.
James
Not quite correct this. West penwith has a policy of no fixed protection being placed or replaced. The culm and Atlantic coast is slightly different. The general consensus is this; if a route has fixed gear and no modern protection can replace it then it could be replaced. The removal of pegs after new routes have been climbed could save the placement for others. It would be poor form to place pegs where others have not needed them.
Some of the more adventurous culm offerings are reliant on pegs. All pegs should be backed up where possible. Individuals must be able to make careful assessments of the dangers of reliance upon all protection in these more adventurous locations. A ball rock should be treated with great caution on the culm due to small surface area.
James
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In reply to JackM92:
Some do, some don't. Most people with sufficient experience to be banging pegs into sea cliffs tend to know what they're doing and exercise good judgement. When I first did Zeppelin (E3 5c) it had a brand new peg in it, and I was well pleased: having fixed gear to clip there (just after the crux, so you're boxed) is quite important to the grade. If such a classic route became much less travelled due to a reputation for being bold, I think that would be a loss of a lot of great E3 experieneces for the sake of applying policies consistently. All seems quite dry and bureaucratic.
On the other hand I think Fay (E4 5c) would be a better, meatier E4 without the pegs. It's a bit of a cruise with all the pegs in and it would make it seem much more fair and full bodied if you had to place gear in the pumpy section. Perhaps someone fairly heavy would like to take a massive whipper from the top of the crux and snap them all? I reckon you'd be OK...
I don't think we need policies on these things. Those passionate souls who work hard to keep our trad routes in good nick with guidebook work and replacing fixed gear where it's the right thing to do should be trusted to make good decisions on the merits of each case. If it's going to be controversial, then it can be raised at a local meeting, and if anyone has a strong view they can turn up and make their case. Or, as a last resort, you can go along and rip pegs out (without breaking anything of course - good luck), but IMO then you're being more of a bellend than someone who replaced a peg for the sake of keeping the route climbed in its traditional state.
I do think however that replacing pegs with bolts is a crap idea, it just crosses an (irrational?) line IMO!
Some do, some don't. Most people with sufficient experience to be banging pegs into sea cliffs tend to know what they're doing and exercise good judgement. When I first did Zeppelin (E3 5c) it had a brand new peg in it, and I was well pleased: having fixed gear to clip there (just after the crux, so you're boxed) is quite important to the grade. If such a classic route became much less travelled due to a reputation for being bold, I think that would be a loss of a lot of great E3 experieneces for the sake of applying policies consistently. All seems quite dry and bureaucratic.
On the other hand I think Fay (E4 5c) would be a better, meatier E4 without the pegs. It's a bit of a cruise with all the pegs in and it would make it seem much more fair and full bodied if you had to place gear in the pumpy section. Perhaps someone fairly heavy would like to take a massive whipper from the top of the crux and snap them all? I reckon you'd be OK...
I don't think we need policies on these things. Those passionate souls who work hard to keep our trad routes in good nick with guidebook work and replacing fixed gear where it's the right thing to do should be trusted to make good decisions on the merits of each case. If it's going to be controversial, then it can be raised at a local meeting, and if anyone has a strong view they can turn up and make their case. Or, as a last resort, you can go along and rip pegs out (without breaking anything of course - good luck), but IMO then you're being more of a bellend than someone who replaced a peg for the sake of keeping the route climbed in its traditional state.
I do think however that replacing pegs with bolts is a crap idea, it just crosses an (irrational?) line IMO!
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
Have you done The Moon (E3 5c)? The shitty old pegs are pretty much all you get on the top pitch, and that's part of the experience. They might not take a big fat bastard falling on them, but they're still useful: if you were having a meltdown you could have a careful little rest on one. They're something to aim for, and then the disappointment when you get to the shitness of the rusty little bastards is all part of the character of the route. I would be much less keen on (more or less) soloing that pitch. And of course numptifying it with bolts to replace the pegs would make it comparatively bland.
> For me, the quicker all pegs in the UK disappear the better... Using pre-existing fixed gear is entirely counter to the self-reliance ethic of trad in my opinion (others hold other well-reasoned opinions).
Have you done The Moon (E3 5c)? The shitty old pegs are pretty much all you get on the top pitch, and that's part of the experience. They might not take a big fat bastard falling on them, but they're still useful: if you were having a meltdown you could have a careful little rest on one. They're something to aim for, and then the disappointment when you get to the shitness of the rusty little bastards is all part of the character of the route. I would be much less keen on (more or less) soloing that pitch. And of course numptifying it with bolts to replace the pegs would make it comparatively bland.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
This is possibly one of my favourite things I think I've ever read on the internet. Thank you for making me piss myself!
> the disappointment when you get to the shitness of the rusty little bastards is all part of the character of the route.
This is possibly one of my favourite things I think I've ever read on the internet. Thank you for making me piss myself!
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In reply to JackM92:
Slightly off topic but I remember clipping a peg on the top pitch of Swastika at Etive and thinking, there is grass growing out of that crack which suggests it is usually wet. I gave the peg the slightest tug and the head came off.....
However its certainly not cut and dried re replacement. Some routes might become un-protectable - not great as they will then never get done, some it won't make a huge difference without the pegs, no problems. Leave it up to people probably a bad idea as bolts will start to appear. Rusty pegs part of the game, certainly. Re-grading when they are gone i.e Eroica, certainly.
Slightly off topic but I remember clipping a peg on the top pitch of Swastika at Etive and thinking, there is grass growing out of that crack which suggests it is usually wet. I gave the peg the slightest tug and the head came off.....
However its certainly not cut and dried re replacement. Some routes might become un-protectable - not great as they will then never get done, some it won't make a huge difference without the pegs, no problems. Leave it up to people probably a bad idea as bolts will start to appear. Rusty pegs part of the game, certainly. Re-grading when they are gone i.e Eroica, certainly.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
I see you still feel cheated and annoyed by Lower Sharpnose Jon, several years later.
Fay - a bit of a cruise with all the pegs?
Aren't there just two pegs - on the headwall leading to the crack and niche? When I seconded it, I thought the pegs (one in particular) looked shite and I wouldn't have trusted them on a big lead fall with nothing else.
Most I have seen leading it back up the pegs in the pumpy section - as per the recommendations in SW guides (ie back up any fixed gear).
The best comedy peg I have seen is that on the second pitch of Dreadnought just before you move left around the arête by the little overhang. It looks like separating sheaves of brown paper held together by dust. Classic (literally).
I see you still feel cheated and annoyed by Lower Sharpnose Jon, several years later.
Fay - a bit of a cruise with all the pegs?
Aren't there just two pegs - on the headwall leading to the crack and niche? When I seconded it, I thought the pegs (one in particular) looked shite and I wouldn't have trusted them on a big lead fall with nothing else.
Most I have seen leading it back up the pegs in the pumpy section - as per the recommendations in SW guides (ie back up any fixed gear).
The best comedy peg I have seen is that on the second pitch of Dreadnought just before you move left around the arête by the little overhang. It looks like separating sheaves of brown paper held together by dust. Classic (literally).
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
How do you know you weren't (if it turned out all the pegs would fail to hold bodyweight)? I don't like to take unnecessary chances on things that are just lucky dip with no skill involved. I prefer the honesty of knowing there isn't any gear rather than the uncertainty of a peg.
If that means I decide a route is too bold for me, and I don't get to lead it, then that's a price I am willing to pay - thin end of the peg and all that... to steal the usual anti-bolting argument, don't peg the route down to your level; leave it for the bold!
> I would be much less keen on (more or less) soloing that pitch.
How do you know you weren't (if it turned out all the pegs would fail to hold bodyweight)? I don't like to take unnecessary chances on things that are just lucky dip with no skill involved. I prefer the honesty of knowing there isn't any gear rather than the uncertainty of a peg.
If that means I decide a route is too bold for me, and I don't get to lead it, then that's a price I am willing to pay - thin end of the peg and all that... to steal the usual anti-bolting argument, don't peg the route down to your level; leave it for the bold!
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
You say you'd be less keen soloing but as you don't know how good the "shitty old pegs" are you might as well be soloing.
How does replacing the crap pegs with bolts "numptify" the route?
At the moment you have all the supposed negatives of pre-existing gear with none of the positives.
I think that if there is going to be pre-existing gear it should be good quality. Either get rid of the pegs all together if they're crap - why make people have a false sense of security? - or replace the pegs with bolts - same visual impact and no needless risks.
> Have you done The Moon (E3 5c)? The shitty old pegs are pretty much all you get on the top pitch, and that's part of the experience. They might not take a big fat bastard falling on them, but they're still useful: if you were having a meltdown you could have a careful little rest on one. They're something to aim for, and then the disappointment when you get to the shitness of the rusty little bastards is all part of the character of the route. I would be much less keen on (more or less) soloing that pitch. And of course numptifying it with bolts to replace the pegs would make it comparatively bland.
You say you'd be less keen soloing but as you don't know how good the "shitty old pegs" are you might as well be soloing.
How does replacing the crap pegs with bolts "numptify" the route?
At the moment you have all the supposed negatives of pre-existing gear with none of the positives.
I think that if there is going to be pre-existing gear it should be good quality. Either get rid of the pegs all together if they're crap - why make people have a false sense of security? - or replace the pegs with bolts - same visual impact and no needless risks.
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In reply to ad111:
Isn't the point of trad taking 'needless risks'? After all nobody needs to do a climb?
Isn't the point of trad taking 'needless risks'? After all nobody needs to do a climb?
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In reply to philhilo:
...and second place for scary belay goes to its neighbour Darkinbad!
> Aye, I was belaying on that occasion and I have never been so scared on a belay
...and second place for scary belay goes to its neighbour Darkinbad!
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Seem to recall the pegs on Fay are iffy anyway, reckon they should be allowed to rust away and agree no real need to replace them.
Seem to recall the pegs on Fay are iffy anyway, reckon they should be allowed to rust away and agree no real need to replace them.
In reply to ad111:
Anyone climbing peg protected sea cliff routes (or any routes) needs to exercise judgement. Why remove them, unless there's good natural gear nearby? They're better than nothing (apart from the really poor ones, which are always good for a laugh). I don't clip pegs if there's decent other gear nearby but I'll happily clip them if there isn't much else - however that's not to say that I'd trust them with my life, unless they're new(ish). Even a so-so peg should at least break a fall and might even hold a small one. Replacement on a like for like basis is sensible if required to maintain the grade but often it isn't really necessary.
As for bolts, that's a whole different level. We all know that a bolt is more reliable than a peg (of course on a sea cliff a bolt would also rust unless it's stainless steel etc). Besides, by its nature a bolt can go in anywhere, whereas a peg can't. I can see the argument that if there was a peg which can't be replaced with a peg then why not stick a bolt in. Eroica is a case in point. That really would be the thin end of the wedge, because where would you stop? So to my mind bolts on sea cliffs is a no-no. No need to bring the routes down to your level, there's always the option of getting better or seconding with a stronger partner.
Anyone climbing peg protected sea cliff routes (or any routes) needs to exercise judgement. Why remove them, unless there's good natural gear nearby? They're better than nothing (apart from the really poor ones, which are always good for a laugh). I don't clip pegs if there's decent other gear nearby but I'll happily clip them if there isn't much else - however that's not to say that I'd trust them with my life, unless they're new(ish). Even a so-so peg should at least break a fall and might even hold a small one. Replacement on a like for like basis is sensible if required to maintain the grade but often it isn't really necessary.
As for bolts, that's a whole different level. We all know that a bolt is more reliable than a peg (of course on a sea cliff a bolt would also rust unless it's stainless steel etc). Besides, by its nature a bolt can go in anywhere, whereas a peg can't. I can see the argument that if there was a peg which can't be replaced with a peg then why not stick a bolt in. Eroica is a case in point. That really would be the thin end of the wedge, because where would you stop? So to my mind bolts on sea cliffs is a no-no. No need to bring the routes down to your level, there's always the option of getting better or seconding with a stronger partner.
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In reply to Misha:
I agree completely with what you say, except that I don't see why sea cliffs are a special case. The same goes for trad climbing in any setting - Avon Gorge or North Wales.
I agree completely with what you say, except that I don't see why sea cliffs are a special case. The same goes for trad climbing in any setting - Avon Gorge or North Wales.
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In reply to Cusco:
Au contraire. It's my favourite crag, I can't get enough of the brainless pulling on big holds and E-points at knock-down prices. All crags should be like Sharpnose.
There's a good few, all the way up the crux section. They are shit, but I with them all clipped I think something would hold. There's bomber gear below all that of course too, so it would be a better route without them.
> I see you still feel cheated and annoyed by Lower Sharpnose Jon, several years later.
Au contraire. It's my favourite crag, I can't get enough of the brainless pulling on big holds and E-points at knock-down prices. All crags should be like Sharpnose.
> Aren't there just two pegs - on the headwall leading to the crack and niche? When I seconded it, I thought the pegs (one in particular) looked shite and I wouldn't have trusted them on a big lead fall with nothing else.
There's a good few, all the way up the crux section. They are shit, but I with them all clipped I think something would hold. There's bomber gear below all that of course too, so it would be a better route without them.
In reply to ad111:
No, I explained why they were useful.
"Numptifying" in this case means turning E3 5b into f6a. Quite a difference. Do we want f6as on Yellow Wall? We most certainly do not.
I tried to articulate how what you think is bad is, for the lover of adventurous trad routes, good.
What's wrong with the way things are?
On Flytrap (E3 5c) the guidebook told me there was a peg at the crux - there wasn't. That's life, I had to use a bit of self reliance (aka experiencing abject terror at the sopping wet, poorly protected, difficult crux). I'm not old enough to reminisce about when climbing was truly adventurous, and I like my modern gear, UKC logbook comments and all the rest. But I don't want my sea cliff climbing experience sanitised any further. I like it just the way it is.
> You say you'd be less keen soloing but as you don't know how good the "shitty old pegs" are you might as well be soloing.
No, I explained why they were useful.
> How does replacing the crap pegs with bolts "numptify" the route?
"Numptifying" in this case means turning E3 5b into f6a. Quite a difference. Do we want f6as on Yellow Wall? We most certainly do not.
> At the moment you have all the supposed negatives of pre-existing gear with none of the positives.
I tried to articulate how what you think is bad is, for the lover of adventurous trad routes, good.
> I think that if there is going to be pre-existing gear it should be good quality. Either get rid of the pegs all together if they're crap - why make people have a false sense of security? - or replace the pegs with bolts - same visual impact and no needless risks.
What's wrong with the way things are?
On Flytrap (E3 5c) the guidebook told me there was a peg at the crux - there wasn't. That's life, I had to use a bit of self reliance (aka experiencing abject terror at the sopping wet, poorly protected, difficult crux). I'm not old enough to reminisce about when climbing was truly adventurous, and I like my modern gear, UKC logbook comments and all the rest. But I don't want my sea cliff climbing experience sanitised any further. I like it just the way it is.
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In reply to John2:
Avon has always had a bit of a mixed ethic as some routes would be death on a stick without fixed gear including the odd bolt on some routes. However I agree that what I said about sea cliffs applies to all 'fully' trad crags. Sea cliffs and mountain routes are of course the bastions of adventurous trad and long may it remain so.
Avon has always had a bit of a mixed ethic as some routes would be death on a stick without fixed gear including the odd bolt on some routes. However I agree that what I said about sea cliffs applies to all 'fully' trad crags. Sea cliffs and mountain routes are of course the bastions of adventurous trad and long may it remain so.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
So much this ^^.
Except for Eroica.
> Some do, some don't. Most people with sufficient experience to be banging pegs into sea cliffs tend to know what they're doing and exercise good judgement. When I first did Zeppelin (E3 5c) it had a brand new peg in it, and I was well pleased: having fixed gear to clip there (just after the crux, so you're boxed) is quite important to the grade. If such a classic route became much less travelled due to a reputation for being bold, I think that would be a loss of a lot of great E3 experieneces for the sake of applying policies consistently. All seems quite dry and bureaucratic.
> On the other hand I think Fay (E4 5c) would be a better, meatier E4 without the pegs. It's a bit of a cruise with all the pegs in and it would make it seem much more fair and full bodied if you had to place gear in the pumpy section. Perhaps someone fairly heavy would like to take a massive whipper from the top of the crux and snap them all? I reckon you'd be OK...
> I don't think we need policies on these things. Those passionate souls who work hard to keep our trad routes in good nick with guidebook work and replacing fixed gear where it's the right thing to do should be trusted to make good decisions on the merits of each case. If it's going to be controversial, then it can be raised at a local meeting, and if anyone has a strong view they can turn up and make their case. Or, as a last resort, you can go along and rip pegs out (without breaking anything of course - good luck), but IMO then you're being more of a bellend than someone who replaced a peg for the sake of keeping the route climbed in its traditional state.
> I do think however that replacing pegs with bolts is a crap idea, it just crosses an (irrational?) line IMO!
So much this ^^.
Except for Eroica.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I accept that trad climbing is risky. I'm not arguing for sanitisation; I'm arguing that if one chooses to take a risk i.e. climbing a route, the level of risk should be quantifiable from the ground. If you expect fixed gear my view is that you should be able to trust all of it or none of it.
It's almost like buying gear from some unknown Russian manufacturer who doesn't match EU regulations - you might be fine but some of it could be shit and you won't know if it fails until you need it.
I don't really accept the whole "blah blah blah life and soul trad ethic adventure epic best day of my life nearly died nothing should change" argument because when someone dies because what they thought was an acceptable risk level turned out not to be it all goes abit beyond that argument.
> On Flytrap (E3 5c) the guidebook told me there was a peg at the crux - there wasn't. That's life, I had to use a bit of self reliance (aka experiencing abject terror at the sopping wet, poorly protected, difficult crux). I'm not old enough to reminisce about when climbing was truly adventurous, and I like my modern gear, UKC logbook comments and all the rest. But I don't want my sea cliff climbing experience sanitised any further. I like it just the way it is.
I accept that trad climbing is risky. I'm not arguing for sanitisation; I'm arguing that if one chooses to take a risk i.e. climbing a route, the level of risk should be quantifiable from the ground. If you expect fixed gear my view is that you should be able to trust all of it or none of it.
It's almost like buying gear from some unknown Russian manufacturer who doesn't match EU regulations - you might be fine but some of it could be shit and you won't know if it fails until you need it.
I don't really accept the whole "blah blah blah life and soul trad ethic adventure epic best day of my life nearly died nothing should change" argument because when someone dies because what they thought was an acceptable risk level turned out not to be it all goes abit beyond that argument.
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In reply to ad111:
Disagree. On a trad route you need to evaluate from the ground and as you go along. It's a continuous risk assessment and you have to err on the side of caution. If the guide book mentions pegs or you can see them from the ground, you still need to treat them with caution and not assume that they will be bomber. Even on some sport routes with old bolts you need to proceed with care! At the end of the day, it isn't realistic to strip and replace all dodgy pegs (and keep replacing them every 5-10 years on sea cliffs to keep them in decent nick).
There aren't that many routes at 'mainstream' grades where pegs are crucial to prevent death or serious injury. There will be some hard routes like that but people operating in the higher E grades are experienced enough to make good judgements and pre check the fixed gear if need be (in fact sometimes the guidebook advises to do that).
Also, bear in mind that not all pegs are reliable even if they're new - marginal knifeblades etc.
Disagree. On a trad route you need to evaluate from the ground and as you go along. It's a continuous risk assessment and you have to err on the side of caution. If the guide book mentions pegs or you can see them from the ground, you still need to treat them with caution and not assume that they will be bomber. Even on some sport routes with old bolts you need to proceed with care! At the end of the day, it isn't realistic to strip and replace all dodgy pegs (and keep replacing them every 5-10 years on sea cliffs to keep them in decent nick).
There aren't that many routes at 'mainstream' grades where pegs are crucial to prevent death or serious injury. There will be some hard routes like that but people operating in the higher E grades are experienced enough to make good judgements and pre check the fixed gear if need be (in fact sometimes the guidebook advises to do that).
Also, bear in mind that not all pegs are reliable even if they're new - marginal knifeblades etc.
Post edited at 10:40
In reply to ad111:
And no one's making you buy it.
No one's going to die. Pull a peg and take a tumble maybe, but on these mid-grad trad(e) routes I'm on about, you're not trusting your life to single rusty peg.
> It's almost like buying gear from some unknown Russian manufacturer who doesn't match EU regulations - you might be fine but some of it could be shit and you won't know if it fails until you need it.
And no one's making you buy it.
> I don't really accept the whole "blah blah blah life and soul trad ethic adventure epic best day of my life nearly died nothing should change" argument because when someone dies because what they thought was an acceptable risk level turned out not to be it all goes abit beyond that argument.
No one's going to die. Pull a peg and take a tumble maybe, but on these mid-grad trad(e) routes I'm on about, you're not trusting your life to single rusty peg.
In reply to ad111:
It sounds like you want sport climbing- there is risk but it is very much written in the book and a certainty before you start off. You rely on others to get you up the route, whether it is the guidebook, the fixed gear. I don't think trad is that, nor ever should be. Trad is about self reliance - ultimately you and the rock. When you set off up a mountain route you have no idea what state it is going to be in - self reliance is the name of the game. Think winter climbing, you read a guidebook description which tells you roughly where the route goes, and what gear there might be but that's it. Winter climbers make decisions on what they find and what they consider to be their own capabilities and limits. They accept that conditions will vary from day to day. There might be fat ice and lots of great gear, or there might be none and its spicy. They take the decisions and are self reliant, them and the mountain.
Sport is far more reliant on what others do, the guidebook, the bolts, the lower off. If we have to have guaranteed fixed gear to be safe then we had better put in bolted belays in case the belay has deteriorated? How many sad clusters of rust have I got to that was a belay, think Coronation Street, think Red Wall etc etc, and then set one up elsewhere, no bother.
Trad is about self reliance - problem solving, including protection. If someone isn't happy with that then they should consider sport climbing. I enjoy them all, from sunny bolt clipping to storm bound dark belay searching amongst the cruddy snow epics.
It sounds like you want sport climbing- there is risk but it is very much written in the book and a certainty before you start off. You rely on others to get you up the route, whether it is the guidebook, the fixed gear. I don't think trad is that, nor ever should be. Trad is about self reliance - ultimately you and the rock. When you set off up a mountain route you have no idea what state it is going to be in - self reliance is the name of the game. Think winter climbing, you read a guidebook description which tells you roughly where the route goes, and what gear there might be but that's it. Winter climbers make decisions on what they find and what they consider to be their own capabilities and limits. They accept that conditions will vary from day to day. There might be fat ice and lots of great gear, or there might be none and its spicy. They take the decisions and are self reliant, them and the mountain.
Sport is far more reliant on what others do, the guidebook, the bolts, the lower off. If we have to have guaranteed fixed gear to be safe then we had better put in bolted belays in case the belay has deteriorated? How many sad clusters of rust have I got to that was a belay, think Coronation Street, think Red Wall etc etc, and then set one up elsewhere, no bother.
Trad is about self reliance - problem solving, including protection. If someone isn't happy with that then they should consider sport climbing. I enjoy them all, from sunny bolt clipping to storm bound dark belay searching amongst the cruddy snow epics.
6
In reply to philhilo:
Couldn't agree more. For me, what I love about trad climbing (and why I find sport climbing hard to get into) is that it's all about decisions. Shall I try this route? Shall I commit to this section with this gear? Am I horribly out of my depth? How am I going to effect a retreat from here?
Obviously, a good, safe route where if you fail you can have a little sit down and then walk round and ab down for your gear (head bowed in shame) is fine, but there's also scope for this kind of experience, if you choose to take it on:
youtube.com/watch?v=QD7TRM394SI&
And it can happen at VS as well as E8! Being forced to dig deep to deal with the situation you chose to put yourself in is a part of trad climbing that you can choose to engage with, or to avoid. That is our choice, and no central authority should be taking decisions about removing "dangerous gear" so that we no longer need to deal with uncertainty.
To ad111: Read the guide, and if you want to do a route that's like climbing a tottering pile of broken biscuits with belays made from rusty coathangers, then go to Red Wall. Or don't, it's up to you!
Couldn't agree more. For me, what I love about trad climbing (and why I find sport climbing hard to get into) is that it's all about decisions. Shall I try this route? Shall I commit to this section with this gear? Am I horribly out of my depth? How am I going to effect a retreat from here?
Obviously, a good, safe route where if you fail you can have a little sit down and then walk round and ab down for your gear (head bowed in shame) is fine, but there's also scope for this kind of experience, if you choose to take it on:
youtube.com/watch?v=QD7TRM394SI&
And it can happen at VS as well as E8! Being forced to dig deep to deal with the situation you chose to put yourself in is a part of trad climbing that you can choose to engage with, or to avoid. That is our choice, and no central authority should be taking decisions about removing "dangerous gear" so that we no longer need to deal with uncertainty.
To ad111: Read the guide, and if you want to do a route that's like climbing a tottering pile of broken biscuits with belays made from rusty coathangers, then go to Red Wall. Or don't, it's up to you!
5
In reply to philhilo:
I feel like you didn't read anything I said?
I was advocating removing crap fixed gear so that it doesn't give people a misplaced sense of safety.
As for the description on what climbing is like - yeah, I've done some climbing too; that's not really the point of this argument.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think that if fixed gear is going to be placed it should be of good quality and well maintained. Obviously climbers should have the skills to operate without fixed gear.
I'll repeat what I said before "I was advocating removing crap fixed gear so that it doesn't give people a misplaced sense of safety." I am happy trad climbing, in fact I love all types of climbing.
Just to make my point as clear as I can. I appreciate the self reliance that is a major part of climbing. What I don't think is smart is keeping or installing fixed gear unless it will be well maintained. I think that rusty pegs and crap pieces of tat should be removed or replaced as I believe (and I accept people disagree) that they represent an unnecessary increased level of risk.
To Jon: I've climbed a fair bit on shale, conglomerate and crappy mid-Wales slate and I'll continue to trust my placed gear rather than half an inch of rust in some mud.
Don't be so paranoid. I'm not the climbing police coming along and removing your favorite piece of rust you like to clip but not fall on; I'm trying to present an argument on a tiny side topic of climbing that I think will make the sport safer and no less fun.
> It sounds like you want sport climbing- there is risk but it is very much written in the book and a certainty before you start off. You rely on others to get you up the route, whether it is the guidebook, the fixed gear. I don't think trad is that, nor ever should be. Trad is about self reliance - ultimately you and the rock. When you set off up a mountain route you have no idea what state it is going to be in - self reliance is the name of the game. Think winter climbing, you read a guidebook description which tells you roughly where the route goes, and what gear there might be but that's it. Winter climbers make decisions on what they find and what they consider to be their own capabilities and limits. They accept that conditions will vary from day to day. There might be fat ice and lots of great gear, or there might be none and its spicy. They take the decisions and are self reliant, them and the mountain.
I feel like you didn't read anything I said?
I was advocating removing crap fixed gear so that it doesn't give people a misplaced sense of safety.
As for the description on what climbing is like - yeah, I've done some climbing too; that's not really the point of this argument.
> Sport is far more reliant on what others do, the guidebook, the bolts, the lower off. If we have to have guaranteed fixed gear to be safe then we had better put in bolted belays in case the belay has deteriorated? How many sad clusters of rust have I got to that was a belay, think Coronation Street, think Red Wall etc etc, and then set one up elsewhere, no bother.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think that if fixed gear is going to be placed it should be of good quality and well maintained. Obviously climbers should have the skills to operate without fixed gear.
> Trad is about self reliance - problem solving, including protection. If someone isn't happy with that then they should consider sport climbing. I enjoy them all, from sunny bolt clipping to storm bound dark belay searching amongst the cruddy snow epics.
I'll repeat what I said before "I was advocating removing crap fixed gear so that it doesn't give people a misplaced sense of safety." I am happy trad climbing, in fact I love all types of climbing.
Just to make my point as clear as I can. I appreciate the self reliance that is a major part of climbing. What I don't think is smart is keeping or installing fixed gear unless it will be well maintained. I think that rusty pegs and crap pieces of tat should be removed or replaced as I believe (and I accept people disagree) that they represent an unnecessary increased level of risk.
To Jon: I've climbed a fair bit on shale, conglomerate and crappy mid-Wales slate and I'll continue to trust my placed gear rather than half an inch of rust in some mud.
Don't be so paranoid. I'm not the climbing police coming along and removing your favorite piece of rust you like to clip but not fall on; I'm trying to present an argument on a tiny side topic of climbing that I think will make the sport safer and no less fun.
1
In reply to Fruit:
No. The point of trad climbing is the love of the experience, the adventure, the self reliance, the feeling of the movement over rock, being in tune with yourself and being in the moment and countless other things.
By trad climbing you are eliminating many of the risks by not soloing.
If I just want to take unnecessary risks I'd just walk out my door down the middle of the road in front of some cars instead of on the pavement.
> Isn't the point of trad taking 'needless risks'? After all nobody needs to do a climb?
No. The point of trad climbing is the love of the experience, the adventure, the self reliance, the feeling of the movement over rock, being in tune with yourself and being in the moment and countless other things.
By trad climbing you are eliminating many of the risks by not soloing.
If I just want to take unnecessary risks I'd just walk out my door down the middle of the road in front of some cars instead of on the pavement.
In reply to JackM92:
Perhaps the solution is just that trad grades should contain a range?
So what was previously E2 5c becomes E(2-4) 5c.
E2 5c if the pegs are good, E4 5c if they aren't... and you have no real way of knowing until you fall on them
Perhaps the solution is just that trad grades should contain a range?
So what was previously E2 5c becomes E(2-4) 5c.
E2 5c if the pegs are good, E4 5c if they aren't... and you have no real way of knowing until you fall on them
3
In reply to ad111:
I get what you're saying but at the end of the day trad self reliance includes evaluating fixed gear.
This is all a hypothetical debate but there's nothing to stop you going out to remove unsafe fixed gear and replace it on a like for like basis if possible, as long as that doesn't run counter to consensus. When you say this or that should be done, who do you mean should do it? There isn't an army of paid crag maintenance workers. So it's down to volunteers and that includes us all. If you have a real issue with it, why not get started on your local crags? I've replaced a few threads at Beeston Tor and quite a few fixed quick draw slings at White Goods (a bit different but it's the same point, the slings were getting dodgy). Hardly a lot compared to what some people do and I will do more over the years to come. If everyone did a bit, we wouldn't even have this discussion in the first place. Someone replaced almost all the threads in Huntsman's a couple or years ago on a rainy day. I think we could all take a leaf out of that person's book...
I get what you're saying but at the end of the day trad self reliance includes evaluating fixed gear.
This is all a hypothetical debate but there's nothing to stop you going out to remove unsafe fixed gear and replace it on a like for like basis if possible, as long as that doesn't run counter to consensus. When you say this or that should be done, who do you mean should do it? There isn't an army of paid crag maintenance workers. So it's down to volunteers and that includes us all. If you have a real issue with it, why not get started on your local crags? I've replaced a few threads at Beeston Tor and quite a few fixed quick draw slings at White Goods (a bit different but it's the same point, the slings were getting dodgy). Hardly a lot compared to what some people do and I will do more over the years to come. If everyone did a bit, we wouldn't even have this discussion in the first place. Someone replaced almost all the threads in Huntsman's a couple or years ago on a rainy day. I think we could all take a leaf out of that person's book...
3
In reply to ad111:
I'm not sure if you missed the point deliberately or not. Whatever else, taking any risk by climbing a particular route is needless. If any particular route presents to great a danger to anyone we are graced with a massive choice of alternatives.
I wonder if grade chasing is a factor here?
I'm not sure if you missed the point deliberately or not. Whatever else, taking any risk by climbing a particular route is needless. If any particular route presents to great a danger to anyone we are graced with a massive choice of alternatives.
I wonder if grade chasing is a factor here?
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