UKC

Couple of questions spring to mind after a few recent 'getting back into it for the season' climbs which have been funny.

What areas have soft grading in your opinion? (Sport, trad whatever)

Which areas have felt hard for the grade? and is it just a case of crux at the top feels hard vs crux at the bottom, different styles of rock and different exposures?

In reply to Oogachooga:


Yorkshire and Northumberland

In reply to Oogachooga:

Northeners are wel'ard bastards

In reply to Oogachooga:

Curbar is hard.

It's not that the grades are (all) wrong, it's just that bit steeper, more awkward and more slippery than most grit crags.

In reply to Oogachooga:

back in the day Northumberland seemed quite Sand Baggy

In reply to Oogachooga:

Southern sandstone has the toughest grades, unless you are good at jumping.
Northumberland has the hardest proper climbing followed closely by West Penwith. Yorkshire is next and then Gower. The Peak is fairly middle of the road along with Lakes, Scotland and Wales in that order. The mid-Wales, Wye, Avon, Devon axis are pretty tame with Pembroke probably the softest.
Add to this the fact that 1940's Severes are hard,as are 1970'sVS's while 1980's E1's are soft and your getting somewhere.
Don't forget that on dry days, unpolished mountain routes will be soft while polished outcrop routes get tougher the shorter they become.
Hope this helps.
It is, by the way, all true.

In reply to Oogachooga:

If it's easy, it's prolly a soft touch. And if it feels like a proper sandbag, you're out of shape and it's really either spot on, or perhaps even a soft touch.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Emmets find our grades pretty hard to start with.

In reply to Oogachooga:

I started a similar thread a while back, there's some views here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=510620

In reply to Oogachooga:
As someone raised on pre-decimal Peak Grit, I thought I was well versed in sandbags.

Then I made my first trip to Yorkshire Grit - Brimham - and thought, maybe not?

Then I went to Northumberland - Back Bowden Doors - and discovered what proper sandbags are!

In reply to Oogachooga:

I'm not climbing very hard, but I think grades are only a guide, and not always a very useful guide, to the difficulty of a climb. If you can see the climb (i.e. single pitch), I think it's better to try and make your own judgments in dialogue with the grade/route description/any other opinions to hand, e.g. "oh yeh, it's a well-protected jug-fest" or "a bit bloody stiff that crack". Also, forgive yourself if you're not climbing "as well as you ought to be", drop a grade or two, and just have fun.

Since I started out on pocketed limestone, I tend to find I'm weak at crack climbing, featureless slabs and arêtes with no feet that involve maintaining a lot of body tension; therefore I struggle on grit, which often involves these sort of features. I also find that some features go at easy grades despite a complete lack of protection, e.g. Fag Slab at Brimham is a severe, despite having only one pro placement at about half-height - presumably because the slabby, grippy rock is considered to mitigate this. But, for me, the expectation had built up that a severe should always have good protection, so it threw me out.

Is this sort of climbing harder, or is it just me flailing and whining? I would say, it's objectively harder for me, because of the sort of climb it is, but not necessarily harder for those who cut their teeth on this. I can only take consolation in smirking at the idea that gritstone can become "polished", as someone who's tried bouldering on the Red Wall at Trowbarrow.

It also seems evident that tradition has a central, but equivocal role in grading - grading is no science. For example, it seems to me that chimneys are often graded in the old money, even where they are damp, awkward, strenuous, terrifying to contemplate and lacking in nut protection. Perhaps, prior to the invention of nuts and cams, such green chimney seemed safe and welcoming compared to the face climb around the corner, but clearly it presents a different sort of challenge... On the other hand, witness the ridiculousness of retroactively re-grading the classic mountain route Bowfell Buttress as Hard Severe because of one short crux section, when it stood at VDiff for many years and was originally graded Diff: when the mountains start moving, the whole grade system wobbles.

One problem, I think, is differing opinions about what the grade system is fundamentally about:

1. Safety: knowing what you're getting yourself in for.
2. Competition: gauging relative levels of achievement.
3. Braggery: misrepresenting climbs as easier (or harder) than they are (or one's climbing as better than it is).
4. Tradition: one method of communicating about climbing across time and space (including character and achievement)

All these considerations come into the mix, as well as local climbing cultures, which lead to distinctive experiences at different crags, and first ascensionists (e.g. Allan Austin was obviously a hard bastard, and even his low-grade routes are not to be taken lightly...).

In reply to C Witter:




On the other hand, witness the ridiculousness of retroactively re-grading the classic mountain route Bowfell Buttress as Hard Severe because of one short crux section, when it stood at VDiff for many years and was originally graded Diff: when the mountains start moving, the whole grade system wobbles.

But one could argue that the climber still has to manage the hardest move/sequence. My long-held view on this (forgive me if you've seen it here before!) is that we should have a grade called Traditional V Diff, meaning "expect anything up to the odd 4a or even 4b move". Gimmer Chimney would be another where this grade would apply. I have one or two Scottish guidebooks from a few years back which include the grade "Scottish VS" which is a similar sort of idea.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
I disagree. Bowfell Buttress is really a HVD 4a in modern terms Gimmer Chimney might be HS 4b. Just grade properly! Scottish VS meant no grade existed above that (which at the time included some mid extremes) and was bloody daft and held back standards. Its what happens when a bunch of macho fools control definitive grade outputs like guidebooks.

In reply to Jimbo C:
Curbar is no harder than anywhere else in the newest BMC Froggatt grading below extreme (except for Two Pitch Route where the editors were outvoted... the editors know it is somewhere between an HVS 4c solo and a well protected HVS 5b as the best gear blocks the key jams).

At mortal grades Yorkshire is hardest average I know apart from maybe some less climbed Nothumberland venues (the popular ones even have soft touches these days). In the Peak, Moorland then Roaches are harder on averege than eastern edge stuff and in the BMC eastern edge guides, Burbage infinity the more obscure northern crags have the most sandbags as we had less coverage and influence when those scripts were produced. Stannington Ruffs is one big sandbag in every sense (and we will never return there with rock shoes)

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Routes do become harder, often because of polish. I don't think anybody has a problem with Windhover (E2 5c) at Stoney, for example, having gone up a grade and a half, from HVS to soft E2, because the foothold you (try to) stand up on on the crux became horribly slippery.

Oops. Just checked the logbook. Was soft E2 when I did it in the 90s. Seems people think it's got harder again since.

In reply to Offwidth:


Oh thank goodness for that

Gimmer Chimney (VD) is the only climb I did last year. I thought that my struggles merely reflected increased weight, failing technique and strength. To be fair they still do but at least I'm not the only person who thinks that VD was a touch harsh

Is the grade voting on this website a waste of time. I don't think anyone dares vote against the quoted grade

In reply to Offwidth:

Scottish VS meant no grade existed above that (which at the time included some mid extremes) and was bloody daft and held back standards. Its what happens when a bunch of macho fools control definitive grade outputs like guidebooks.

Bollocks. It was fun and made the evenings beer taste even better - provided you were still alive

In reply to AlanLittle:



It used to be VS!!!!

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree regarding grade properly. The SMC guides have deliberately kept some Scottish VS and labelled as such, for fun I guess

In reply to Offwidth:
comparing the style of climbing I think the western grit with its typically more rounded, more grainy rock, often somewhat less gear and less horizontal breaks makes it less friendly climbing in general.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I think they do but too many suffer from confirmation bias and then there are the old grumpy gouchos having fun and a pint at the expense of VD leaders.

In reply to Christheclimber:


It was - and apart from one move, it still is

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I believe it's meant to be for routes that haven't been re-climbed since the grading system was extended

In reply to Offwidth:

I'd be happy with that but I believe F&R guidebooks don't use HVD at all. On the other hand they do use MS, which would be equally acceptable.

As for the Traditional V Diff suggestion, one benefit would be as a "hat tip" to history and the pioneers.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Pretty much all areas in my experience have both soft touches and harshly graded routes. But (again in my experience) grit, irrespective of exact area, seems to have more sandbags (or would be if it was anywhere else).

In reply to Oogachooga:

Reiff and the NW are generally soft.

In reply to Oogachooga:

It will probably depend on which guidebook you're using. Older guides tend to have harder grades. In each new successive guide that comes out some of the routes previously high in their grade will be put up to the next grade.

Aside from that some areas will feel harder because the style of climbing suits one less than an area where they feel soft.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


XVD

In reply to DaveHK:


For VS and below I'd say that the whole of Scotland is soft.
Excluding "Scottish VS" of course

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Maybe on average but there are plenty of sandbags left. Try all the easier routes on Stac Polliadh (if you can find them).

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Not true.

Go to places like Loudon Hill where most the climbs seems nails to me.

Also at most venues there are climbs that aren't soft touch. For example the rut at Dunkeld or Rebels Groove at Hawkcraig etc. I think on the mountains its also not uncommon to find climbs hard in the grade. Several of the severes on the Ben are hard / sandbags etc

In reply to Offwidth:

I think that's it, overall Scotland is graded a bit softer than average I think (at the grades I climb).

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Ardmair was another NW place that didn't seem soft to me in any sense. I cant think of many routes at severe that have exposure like The Raven

The Raven (S)

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I like that!

In reply to Offwidth:

Even with the trade routes, eagle ridge is no push over.

On the Ben Route 2 Direct felt more like bold 4b than severe 4a. Whilst Direct Route VDiff may be just high in the grade, Direct Route 2 seemed nails (or we were off route).

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


That's a fairly hefty generalisation.

In many areas, include some parts of Scotland, I've found that a glance at the date of the first ascent will give you some clue as to whether it will be a soft touch or a sandbag. Of recently pioneered routes I think there are a lot more of the former than the latter, certainly in the sort of grades I climb.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Haven't you just said one thing in your reply to me, and the opposite in your reply to Offwidth?

Obviously I only speak from personal experience, but the exceptions have been so few that I mentally subtract a grade from the guidebook when deciding what to try. No doubt sooner or later I'll regret it!

Similarly I reckon that Northumberland grades are hard, especially below VS, and if I assume that VD means Severe then I'm sandbagged less often.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

The whole subject of the thread is generalisation

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Not really what I've found is whilst the grading does tend to be softer in Scotland as a whole than say England as a whole, I disagree that subtracting a grade or statements like "the whole of Scotland is soft" are factually correct. There are plenty of climbs that are really high in the grade as well as crags that are generally quite stiffly graded.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I didn't mean to suggest that every route on every crag is soft, any more than I would that every route on every crag in Northumberland is hard - even Northumberland has its soft touches!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
ok its just that's how your reply reads, and how myself and offwidth interpreted it

"For VS and below I'd say that the whole of Scotland is soft."

In reply to Oogachooga:
I've always found Cornwall quite stiffly graded both from the boldness and the technicality of the climbing, although it could partially be that I don't climb there very often.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

>

Maybe you're just crap at jamming? At Loudon it's usually the routes that require the odd jam that people seem to struggle on.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Cornwall's somewhere that I've found every single crag and route to be soft

In reply to DaveHK:

From what I can remember you can get by without jamming on every route at Loudon (and the grades still seem fair).

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Eagle Ridge definitely felt more like HS to me

In reply to Oogachooga:

Almcliff is the definition of a crag with soft grading.

>_>

In reply to DaveHK:

nah jamming is one thing I'm better at

In reply to Kid Spatula:


Absolutely! Overhanging Groove and Great Western would still be VS at Brimham!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

How about the classic Lands End Long Climb VD... top end HS 4c in my opinion on the tricky reachy traverse (or a scary, jump) and bold HS 4a on the top wall. I've not checked the new guide but a few of the right-hand climbs at Bosigran were sandbags. Lots of routes on minor crags and minor lines in big crags have some really hard routes for the grade.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I thought I'd gone wrong on Route 2 Direct but was told no, its just a tricky severe. In contrast when I climbed at Bowden Doors doing our usual climb everything below VS and anything we fancied above I was surprised just how few sandbags we encountered (we only did the right-hand section of the crag though, maybe the sandbags are sinister)

In reply to Offwidth:
Generally the Northumberland grading isn't too bad once you are about 5+ metres up or so (although I still expect it to be on the stiff side), below that the technicality may well be underestimated and the need for gear is often not considered. Bouldering mats are a sound investment for trad climbing in the area IMO. In fact maybe the bouldering is just better there full stop

There certainly are a few sandbags at Bowden but the right end is friendlier than the left / middle for sure.

Long John and Sue spring to mind at Severe but I'm pretty sure there are plenty more

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It really depends where you are in Northumberland I'd say. Bowden / Back Bowden are probably fairly average for the area; try a more grit-type crag like Ravensheugh and be prepared to lose a good few grades!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You're right, most things in the County are easier 5+ metres up. That's because you've reached the top.

Steve

In reply to Oogachooga:

The HVSs on the great cave slab at Shornecliff in the Wye Valley are definitely a soft touch, though very pleasant. Often Pembroke feels easy for the grade. To me, Gogarth is hard.

In reply to Oogachooga:

The important grades to get right are those up to vs.A severe that is nearer VS 4b is likely to make a beginner fall off.Beginners have less safe gear skills and gear tends to rip out more while they are inexperienced.Soloing a HS that turns out to be more like VS+ can be a rather nasty shock.Updating grades to allow for polish is also useful.If the friction is worse,the route is harder.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well said.

I also think many routes in Scotland (especially mountain routes) are very exposed for their grade, particularly in Glen Coe, but also some Skye/Ben Nevis/Cairngorms mountain routes. This can certainly feel difficult if folk aren't used to it.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Thanks Paul... I wish all experienced climbers felt this way though. Sandbagging beginners is sad and dangerous.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Good comment, I agree.

Now then.............Hen Cloud in the West will give it's Eastern cousin Curbar a run for her money.

In reply to ehole:
Did maybe but we got to that in the first edition of the new BMC series and improved most obscure crags in the updated version . Pretty much everything sub VS with a route number in that Roaches guide, the Froggatt guide, Stanage and main crags in Burb infinity and Moorland have been regraded to clear out sandbags. I know plenty of Roaches HVS sandbags (Masochism being the worst famous one) but they wont hurt beginners.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Windhover went up in grade because the VS holds fell off the start

In reply to Offwidth:


True - there's a balance though and if a route like Bowfell Buttress has been V Diff for 100 years it probably doesn't need changing, unless something falls off it etc.

In reply to Offwidth:



I'd agree with this statement. Regarding 2 pitch route, I thought VS 5a was fair - a touch harder than the File but not much harder and safe. It's easier than Downes Flake in my opinion....

In reply to LakesWinter:


No one seems to disagree in the UKC logbook. Of 90 votes cast, the vast majority think it's somewhere between a mid and hard v diff (but not H V Diff!). That's how I remember it too (with much of the climbing being much easier)

In reply to LakesWinter:

I'd be happy with VD 4a but we grade for our impression and that was HVD 4a (tough for the tech grade). Its a hard short wall above a good ledge so with a second partly spotting on the ledge, yes it's safe. Daft overgrading of such routes can lull climbers into false sense of security.

In reply to Offwidth:

Exactly, that's the issue with strange upgrading of established classics...

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):


It's not a waste of time, provided one understands that it is not done blind and suffers from an anchoring bias.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I think lots of votes are good for pinning down stuff plus or minus a grade. Many VD votes means the route is no harder than severe.

In reply to Oogachooga:
Sennen is worth consideration. I can think of a couple of V Diff 4c routes that would excite the fear factor

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Really? I don't remember the grades there being any different from the other crags in Lowland Outcrops book... I've done a decent number of the midgrade routes there.