UKC

I have just spotted these bolt and hanger sets on ebay (can't post link but item title is below):

30KN Safety Rock Climbing Anchor Set Hanger Expansion Bolt Nut Piton Gear Equip

Unbelievably cheap, which I assume also means unbelievably unsafe and likely to rust.

Has anyone had any experience using these?

I'm not sure I'd like to knowingly trust my life on it!

In reply to AlexBush:





If they really are unsafe, then hopefully not?!

Here's the link: https://tinyurl.com/jzthebh

How much do these usually cost anyway? A single bolt & hangar at £5.89 doesn't seem that cheap to me, but I have no clue. Would price equipment for a sport route at about 100 euro, which is what I'd have guessed.

In reply to AlexBush:

Great another gear on e-bay thread, haven't had one of those in a while.

Contrary to popular belief things made in China are not all poor quality.

An expansion bolt and hanger is an incredibly simple thing, I.e. a bolt and a bent piece of metal. To manufacture is not difficult and can be done so in high quantity at relatively low prices. My only concern would be the type of bolt supplied, most have a double sleeve or a full length sleeve. These seem more suitable to masonry work.

Mammut bolts are only $5, fixe $3 and climb tech $2... a Metolius hanger to boot comes in at $3, $2 if you go for fixe or climb tech. You would be getting a bargain shopping elsewhere.

But of course they are far safer as they have a brand stamped on them...

In reply to GarethSL:



But a brand stamp will also mean that they are manufactured and tested to EN standards.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Which doesn't mean they aren't tested, just that they aren't tested to that particular standard. It costs a shitload to certify gear for specific quality standards, something that small businesses (especially working with cheap metals to produce very simple bits of gear) simply might not have.

As GarethSL said, not every product coming out of CN is shit. They produce a great deal of high quality gear these days, most of the super cheap stuff is produced in Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam etc because they are cheaper.

In reply to Removed User:

Best using marine grade stainless for bolts, these don't appear to be. Also worth contacting your local bolt fund for advice and maybe purchasing bolts through them.

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Does it not make more sense to go directly to Titanium if you're going to use MGS?

In reply to Removed User:

Agree, for some rock types, locations etc.

In reply to Removed User:


Given that they are the same price as EN rated, higher grade (A4) alternatives, why would you bother? "Perhaps they've been tested" is a big risk (both financially and morally) to take a product that other people will be trusting their lives to.

In reply to AlexBush:

Hi Alex,

one of the pics shows the hanger with "Inox" stamped on it, just because it does it certainly doesn't mean it is. Best not to buy from ebay.

If you are going to buy expansions buy A4 or 316 marine grade Stainless Steel bolts AND hangers, don't mix the metals as you will get galvanic corrosion. Raumer 316 bolts are brilliant.

best option are glue ins, trickier to place but longer lasting, Jim Titts Bolt Products 316 are excellent as are Titan Climbing's Titanium bolts, just make sure you scrupulously clean the hole out of all dust and debris.

Any questions drop me an email : )

Andy

In reply to Removed User:


A personal viewpoint: I live somewhere that many goods on offer are of Chinese origin. Over the last few years I 've bought quite few of them - either because they were the only stuff available, or because better known brands are eye-staggeringly expensive (in comparison to UK prices). And I have to say, the Chinese stuff has been, pretty much without exception, totally shit. Lesson learnt - I won't touch anything that I know to be of Chinese origin with a barge pole, even if it does result in inconvenience fron time to time. Others may have had better experiences.

In reply to AlexBush:

I work in Purchasing, we have a company policy that we do not use Chinese origin materials for Safety related applications.

In reply to AlexBush:

I wouldnt trust Chinese made PPE, especially after a Chinese manufacturer started faking the Petzl and UIAA stamps

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/fake-petzl-products-found-china

Being made in China is not in itself an issue - many major brands subcontract production there and much of the world's consumer goods are manufactured there. Stainless steel originating in China has poor reputation though. For example, cavers sourced Chinese made copies of the old DMM Eco-bolt as stocks of those ran out, but abandoned plans to use them because of inconsistent materials specs.

My main concern would be about buying from an unknown producer. A known brand are traceable, have to manufacture product to the relevant standard, and operate under a recognised quality system. If something goes wrong, they'll try and contact you and rectify it - the recent BD recall although bad for BD, shows that the system works.

You get none of that peace of mind buying from a random place on the internet. Any problems and they can shut up shop and have a new url up quick as a flash. If you really want to buy this stuff, I'd email the seller and ask for a certificate of conformity, and their ISO quality label. I think I can guess the response you'll get, but you never know.

In many ways, what makes this case potentially worse than the previous lot of dodgy crampons etc, is the potential for people other than the purchaser to be affected. Bolting a route with substandard equipment puts others at risk, so why do it? I'd want proof that what I'm buying is going to do the job, and there are many suppliers as mentioned above who can do this for not much more money.

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:

Spot as usual Dan : )

In reply to AlexBush:

New route bolters in China don't even seem to use Chinese bolts..

In reply to AlexBush:

Even Petzl (not the cheapest European brand) stainless steel bolt and hanger sets, bought singly from a UK climbing shop at full RRP are £6 for 10mm and £7 for 12mm inc VAT and free delivery if you buy more than £30 worth so I don't see that these are that much of a bargain unless it's £2 delivery for any quantity.

In reply to AlexBush:

The advert states quite clearly they are shipped from China, therefore the purchaser in Europe is also the importer. The liability for EN conformity and certification rests with the importer, conformity is controlled by HM Customs. The fine for the first offence is up to 50,000 pounds if I remember rightly.

In reply to jimtitt:


Is that from first hand experience, Jim ?

In reply to Rick Graham:

Of course not, it´s just I´m conversant with the law regarding importing goods from overseas and the requirements of the directive.
I don´t buy bolts and hangers from China, ours are manufactured in Germany and Austria respectively.

In reply to jimtitt:

Sorry, Jim. I could not resist a bit of light hearted online heckling.

I think Dan M's last comment was fairly crucial.

"Bolting a route with substandard equipment puts others at risk, so why do it?"

You could ( inadvisedly ) use sub standard gear for your own protection, but to let it be used by others is plainly not fit for purpose, and indeed criminal.

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:


Yes they are but most have western quality control in place for their branded goods



I wouldn't trust that, anyone with a printer can make a certificate of conformity and cover it with ISO and CE and anything else they want.
How do you enforce things when someone dies and the company halfway round the world vanishes.

In reply to Dax H:

I agree - I was trying to be even handed, but I don't for a second think these bolts are made to a safety standard, mountaineering or industrial.

In reply to Dax H:




Well bolts and hangers are self-certified by the manufacturer so yes, anybody does print the certificate of conformity, all the manufacturers do.
Bolts may not be marked CE as they are not covered by the relevant legislation, this would be illegal.

I´d make a guess that the majority of the bolts installed in the UK were not certified to EN 959 anyway.

In reply to AlexBush: The rule of thumb is that if you're worried about them don't buy them. Would you be happy taking a fall onto one of these things or lowering off from them?

I'd rather pay 15% extra and get my bolts direct from Needlesports or Petzl or whoever. The price difference seems ridiculously small for the potential danger.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Perhaps a better rule of thumb would be, could you stand in front of a climber's parents/partner/children after an accident and explain that using unbranded, uncertified Chinese made bolts didn't make any difference to the outcome?

A bit better than home made pitons and bolts made from DIY stores supplies.

In reply to EddInaBox: That's not a bad rule. Bolts aren't failsafe but some bolts are more so than others.

In reply to EddInaBox:

That sounds very similar to my rule of thumb in safety matters. Speak your excuse or reasoning out loud and follow it with "m'lord". If it still sounds like something you'd be happy to present in your defense then fine, if it conjures up images of the judge putting on his black cap then think again.

In reply to AlexBush:

Cheers for the replies, I reckon it's worth going for something made by a reputable company. The Petzl hanger and bolt sets look pretty good...