UKC

This is aimed at people who've been climbing for five or more years: I'm interested in finding out how many people have managed to maintain a continuous year on year improvement over a five to ten year period, particularly those who are middle-aged (but opinions from younger/older people are also welcome) and climb at lower grades (sport grades from here on), say 6s into low 7s. I started climbing over four years ago and I've managed to maintain an upward, although glacially slow, increase in the grade I climb but have recently needed to focus specifically on strengthening my fingers and forearms to maintain progress. So, although I've put in a lot of effort climbing two or three times a week, and kept the upward progress, I still only climb at a grade most people would attain after a year or so climbing regularly indoors -- 6c+ (a soft touch) is the best I've clawed my way up indoors. Strength (fingers/forearms) is the limiting factor, it appears, and so I'm wondering how realistic it is to maintain the upward progress into the 7s.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
I've been climbing about eight years (I think), and am still on a continuous slow improvement.
If you're talking about indoor grades are you climbing to your maximum? Are you taking falls?

It sounds patronizing but my biggest gains came when I realized that I wasn't actually trying as hard as possible, and I was still holding back because of a fear of falling.
I went from about 6c to 7c (indoors) relatively quickly when I concentrated on this.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
I'm probably in similar position but at a slightly higher grade. Been climbing for 7 years and maximum redpoint indoors and outdoors is 7b. When I was at around 6c the things that helped me move up a bit was a winter of doing friendly bouldering competition at my local wall with a friend who was on a similar level, getting on those 7as outside (surprisingly they didn't feel as bad as I thought they would have) and loosing 3-4kg. But it's been year and a half since ticking my first 7b and besides ticking a few more on an occasional outdoor trip I feel like I need some structured training to improve finger strength and shoulder/biceps power (I'm a weak girl ) so I shall too watch this thread with interest

In reply to deacondeacon:


Similar experience. I realised I hadn't been trying very hard when I started redpointing, and then I got used to trying hard.

Most people down the wall don't try very hard, which is why I suspect most people plateau. Easy to fall out of the habit of trying hard too.

In reply to najki_2000:


Not structured, but I do training of sorts on a regular basis, on the 30 degree board. Mostly open handed on the smallest holds I can use open handed, with pretty crappy footholds. Wide moves really work the shoulders if you keep open handed, and it works the core keeping your feet on. And the small fingery holds are obviously good for finger strength.

It actually quite good fun making up problems, then making them harder. I think I'd get too bored just hanging off a fingerboard.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Yes, I can climb with maximum effort, and take falls, particularly if I'm redpointing something, though I'm not so keen on taking falls onsighting. That's not the issue, although I concede it's something I can still improve on; the issue is I physically can't do the very hard moves, or if I can I've nothing left for the next very hard move. I regularly try routes in the 6c+ to 7a+ range, indoors and out (although I don't log most of the dogged stuff in my ukc logbook), and I've a pretty good idea what my physical limit is.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Just to clarify, although I realise this wasn't necessarily meant for me, but I do try hard, and have indicated by the description in my original post that I've not plateaued.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Like you say, wasn't really aimed at you, but since you mention it, are you sure you're trying 100%? I used to think I tried hard, until I started trying hard!

When I fall off, and when I'm trying hard I always fall off (or get to the top), I do still question did I go for that next hold with total commitment. And the answer isn't always yes. Sometimes I'm not sure. Hard to judge, and easy to delude yourself.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

When you strip it all down, you are asking the simple and common question - how do I get better at climbing?
Some or all of the simple and common answers probably apply; follow a training plan, buy a book about climbing training, buy a fingerboard, eat better, lose weight, climb with people who are better than you, even just 'try harder' as mentioned above. Pick any of these that you are not already doing and you should see an improvement.

My personal recommendation would be to see a coach, it is no longer the preserve of elite climbers, it's accessible, relatively cheap and an experienced, unbiased eye will immediately find your weak points and be able to tell you how to improve them.

Without knowing anything more about you, this is quite telling:


If you are not willing to risk a fall, you definitely are not trying as hard as possible, end of story. As boring as it sounds, this might be a good starting point.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Yes, i can apply 100%, but naturally I realise I can't always muster 100% every time. When I can, my limit is as I've indicated. You know, I had a feeling when I started this thread that despite indicating that I was interested in peoples experience with long term strength gain, that I'd have plenty of replies suggesting I had a problem taking falls, or that I didn't try hard enough. Anyway, it was worth a try.

In reply to Dandan:


No I'm not. I'm asking what I asked. I've indicated that I've been able to maintain year on year progress and that strength (forearm/finger) is a limiting factor and I'm attempting to find out if other people (particularly middle-aged) have been able to maintain longterm year on year improvement in the 5 to 10 year range, which will help me assign a probability to me being able to maintain progress over that same period of time.

As for your onsighting comment, it has no bearing on a redpoint attempt, which is what mainly interests me in relation to this thread.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


People are only trying to help. And the replies are about personal experience. Maybe you are that rare person who tries 100%. I'm mostly not.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

well, I can offer no real advice, just support, as I am in the same boat as you. Recently started bouldering to try improve my climbing, but as in central London, it all costs money! (no outdoors crag nearby). Started doing some upper body work recently as well (e.g. open hand pull ups and hanging- not sure if going about it the right way - most advice for this type is for fingerboards and some articles I read specify fingerboard work only for those climbing already climbing a few times a week) as especially doing overhangs I tire easily. My slab grades are higher compared to the steep stuff. Half thinking of adding some sort of training thing at home but my wife may have final say!

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


So, when you strip it down, you are asking the simple and common question - how do I get better at climbing?

Forget time periods, age, longterm improvements, you want to get better, am I right? I doubt that anyone climbing for 5-10 years and trying to improve constantly has managed to avoid at least a few injuries, nobody improves constantly so that is kind of beside the point in my opinion. You need to find your weak points and improve them, the longer you can do this for regularly, the better, and plenty of people have shown that age is no significant barrier to improvement.
If you think your forearms and fingers are a limiting factor then I would tentatively suggest training your fingers and forearms more, I can't see how it's any more complicated than that.


So you'll take a fall on redpoint that you won't on an onsight? That seems a little odd.

Honestly, go and see a coach, and if they are any good, they will soon be able to tell you where you can improve.

In reply to Dandan:



Has it occured to you that I might already be doing what you describe? I have a minimum of two sessions climbing per week, usually three. That includes training specifically my finger/forearm strength (I mentioned this in my original post). And the training works, because I can climb routes now I couldn't back at Christmas. The point is that each person responds differently to training, and like it or not as you get older you respond less well, although i'm not saying age is my problem. Anyway, I am improving, but slowly, so I'm trying to find out if these slow gains are sustainable over a 5 to 10 year timescale for a middle-aged person.


I find it easier to just concentrate on the climbing and moves if redpointing at my limit, and just forget about falling off. Doesn't seem odd to me. I do take falls onsighting, it's just too easy some days to shout take.


I am improving, but slowly. That's not the question.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Ok, so all other things being equal, assuming you are of approximately average height, weight, physical well-being etc, then yes, achieving 6c after 5 years of regular climbing including specific training IS glacially slow progress, and I imagine that if you continue doing what you are doing then yes, barring any disasters, you can probably expect to see the same glacial progress up to, at a guess, around 7b/+.

But what that says to me is that you are missing something, something that I can't possibly hope to determine through an internet forum. Your climbing and training is not giving you the improvements you could probably expect, a coach will tell you what the problem is.
That's still my best advice, go see a coach. It worked for me, and that's the best recommendation I can give.

In reply to Dandan:




Do you get commission from the local climbing coach by any chance? But seriously, I will consider it, although I think the problem is just the natural variability in capacity to gain strength, and that I'm some way below the average. It would be interesting if anyone else replies who's been in a similar position and increased their grade to 7b in the glacially slow manner you suggested might be possible.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Maintaining upward progress into the 7's is very realistic. I'm 39. I haven't made year on year progress, but I think this is partly due to having less time to climb. I climbed my first (soft) 7a in 2008, my first 7b in 2010, had a child in 2010 and moved country in 2012. I climbed my first 7c in 2014 and last Sunday was the first time that I've RP'd 7c in a single session. This year I'm fitter than ever and plan to try for my first 8a.

I wouldn't dissmiss the questions by the other posters re. whether finger strength really holds you back and whether you are able to put 100% effort in. These are really good questions. You also asked about the feasibility of upward progress in the 7's not about the feasibility of year-on-year improvements in finger strength. I think these are two different questions and from the discussion below I'm not sure which one you want answering. My modest improvements above come initially mostly from improving tactics, and more recently from improving fitness and core strength. I won't say that finger strength hasn't improved. But it is rarely as much of a limitation as people think.

In reply to TonyB:


Well, I was trying to filter out all the other variables and get some information specifically on gaining strength (finger/forearm) within the context I'd outlined in the original post. There's a lot gets written about the other things people have mentioned which I've read before, and I wanted to hear from people specifically on the issue I'd outlined. Okay, it may be you're right that it's not the finger strength holding me back, but I'm fairly sure it is the main issue, although I do keep an open mind without intending to discuss other possibilities in this thread. My original post asked about progress into the 7s and I'd assumed that the way i'd written it suggested it should be considered within the context of the finger/forearm strength. Yes, I realise that's only part of the picture but the other factors like technique, core strength, endurance seem more readily achieved than gaining finger strength. Gaining strength seems to be the limiting factor, so I was curious as to how achievable it was longterm given my fairly slow progress to date. Anyway, thanks for the input, another 7 years at this rate and I might be climbing as well as you.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

It seems to be not what you want to hear, but if you can onsight 6b you're almost certainly already strong enough to redpoint 7a if you can find the right one(s).

In my case what made the difference was tactics and learning to systematically work routes, rather than trying to onsight everything. I was fairly steady at 6b onsight / the occasional 6c first or second go; my first 6c+was also the first time I ever set foot on a route intending to work it rather than onsight it, and I did it in a day. And 7a a few months later.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Do a load of pull ups or something?

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

After reading this I really don't know what you wanted to hear after some good advice.

So in response to your op of course it's realistic to improve, at what rate is entirely up to you of course.

I'd focus on technique too, sometimes it's not always about hard you can pull

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Firstly sorry if what I wrote wasn't what you wanted to hear. It's a forum, I made a comment with regards to my own experiences, and another user commented on that. That's how an open forum works, don't take it so personally
If all your asking for is wether someone who is middle aged can continue to make slow progress then obviously it's YES.

Can you describe an average evening climbing for you?
Are you training with any structure?
Do you incorporate any periodisation?
How's your diet?
Do you have any excess weight you could get rid of?
Do you have a fingerboard you could use at home?
Are you climbing with partners who are significantly better than you?
What would you say your strengths and weaknesses are?
Is there much disparity between your indoor and outdoor grade?
Do you do much bouldering, if so what grade do you climb?

In reply to flash13:

Ofcoarse it is how hard you can pull. Its only about how hard you can pull.
So pull hard.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Whatever works best for you. But, by comparison, I've trained for six days out of the last eight and climbed outside for the other two. I'm 63. I'm not saying that's right or wrong (especially for you). But, possibly, it indicates some more possibility.

Mick

P.S. Enjoyed doing those routes at FCQ with you.

In reply to Mick Ward:

What sort of intensity are those 6 days training? If you don't mind me asking.
Cheers

In reply to flash13:


Well there's the problem. I wasn't asking for advice, although I appreciate the good intent. Okay, perhaps I didn't word the initial post too well. What I was trying to do was get an idea of how other people had progressed within the context of that initial post so as to give myself an indication of what was achievable. More specifically, what was achievable from a fairly low starting point with slow progress, compared to the more common examples where people quickly progress upto the high sixes. I'm not looking for a meaningless "yes anything is possible answer", I was looking for something along the lines of say "yes, I made slow progress like you for four years, but then struggled to get beyond 6c" or maybe "I made slow progress up to 6c, but then over the next two year managed to get to 7c by doing x,y,z". A few people have given those sorts of answers, but not many.

I really regret even starting this thread, but I've no doubt I'll continue get a string of dislikes and someone is bound to tell me I need to fall off more.

In reply to Mick Ward:


What sort of gains do you make from those hours? I think at 2 to 3 sessions a week over a winter it's given me 1 grade (as in a + increment, not a letter).

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Got to 6c+ in 7-8 years then up to 7c in the following 6 months.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Boulder, climb with climbers who are better than you, look at diet, weight, get some coaching, warm up properly, get more sleep, get more rest, do complimentary exercise, read about climbing, watch other climbers both good and bad, watch videos of people climbing - all this will help. And answer the question: how much do you really want to get better ?
I see you're quite young so you have every chance of making improvement. But what sort of sacrifices are you prepared to make and what grade do you think you need to reach to satisfy you ?
Good luck

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

I love UKC - someone asks a question, people chip in with (well-meaning and potentially useful) advice that doesn't answer the question, and then the OP is criticised for asking the wrong question to the 'answers' provided :P

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Too bloody right. You ended with a statement that is pretty unlikely to be true at the very modest grades you're talking about


and then whined continually when people tried to make constructive suggestions about other things that might be more important.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

I'm 39 and started sport climbing 4-5 years ago - I had a base of bouldering for around the same period so started at F7a (around the same for both on-sights and short projects). Embraced RP tactics and did F7b+ in the first year, improved more slowly to F7c, F8a, F8a+ in subsequent years.

I suspect the gain is almost entirely due to technique and tactics. I am probably weaker in terms of hard moves than when I started - I don't boulder anywhere near as much now - cannot currently touch my old "ticklist" at Almscliff.

But, there is nothing like working ambitiously hard routes to teach your body how to move efficiently and decisively between barely sufficient holds. I am a much better mover than I was years ago - quicker of thought and deed when it comes to flowing from position to position.

Other games have come from being smarter with how to campaign - wasting less energy equipping the route and working the moves, properly investigating rest and clipping positions, getting comfortable with the falls from the cruxes and possibly skipping hard clips, resting well between attempts, waiting for good conditions.

So, my advice would be to raise the difficulty level of your routes and prepare for a bit of a siege - treat it as bouldering on a rope if need be. You will learn a lot and might surprise yourself with how quickly it comes together (I generally have 3 sessions of utter ineptitude - barely linking anything, then it suddenly just seems to all work). You will become a better climber in the long run. Maybe reserve some sessions for dedicated bouldering for variety and to maintain finger strength. But, I doubt physical fitness is holding you back providing you're not obese etc - more likely the reason you have not climbed hard routes is that you have not really tried to climb hard routes.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Ok, opinions aside, here is my climbing history:

I started 12 years ago climbing indoor walls, on day 1 I could climb 6a
I was immediately hooked and climbed twice a week from then on, got into outdoor sport after 2 years.
After 5 years I ticked 7b outside
After 6 years I ticked 7b+ outside
After 7 years I ticked 7c+ outside
Worth pointing out that at this point I had no knowledge of and had never done any directed training, I just climbed twice a week.
The remaining 5 years to present day are a mess of elbow and shoulder injuries and set backs interspersed with some short periods of good performance meaning I've never quite returned to my high point grade wise, although I think I am a fitter, better climber now.
18 months ago I saw a coach who turned my climbing on it's head. I always knew I had strong arms, but nobody ever told me that I practically dragged my legs up routes, I could have suffered a lower limb amputation and still climbed as hard! Now I actually use my feet and behold, I don't seem to injure my elbows as much!
If I'd had that feedback 5 years ago I could almost certainly have saved myself a significant amount of climbing downtime, and who knows what grade I would be climbing now.

So I'm possibly not a good example for showing if you can maintain improvement beyond 5 years, as it all kind of fell apart for me, but I think I should be a good example to show that you could be improving faster, which is what we all want really isn't it?
Also, again, (due to my lucrative sponsorship deal with the Climbing Coaching Federation), I would urge you to go and see a coach, it's the advice I wish I had been given when I had been climbing for 5 years, so it's the advice that yes, I know you didn't ask for, but I'm going to give you.

In reply to AlanLittle:


And who's likely to be best placed to assess the truth of that statement? You, who's never met me, or me who's been present every time I've climbed over the last 4+ years? Do you not think I've had plenty of time to think about it? I can give you an example in that a number of times bouldering at one of the local walls I've seen someone scrape their way up a boulder problem a grade or so above what i can climb, then shortly after seen them fail before completing a 30 move problem on a circuit board that I can lap a couple of times without too much bother. That's the sort of evidence I've used to make the statement you deem "unlikely to be true". The point is that I shouldn't have had to justify how I came to make that statement, a reasonable person could have deduced something along similar lines.


You're just being insulting, now. There's really no need.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Ok, so after reading reading your post several times, I think I have the answer you want.

I don't know how many people make year on year progress. I haven't. I suspect it is very hard in the long run as injury, lifestyle change etc can all cause minor plateaus. I think what is more important is long term improvement. This is very realistic with good tactics, smart training focused on priority areas and managing to avoid or limit injuries.

In reply to Dandan:

That's interesting information because I was wondering how the level you start at affects where you end up. When I started i couldn't get up a 5. I think it took me a year to lead a proper 6a. That sort of thing gets missed out of most discussions and the assumption is generally that everyone starts at around 6a.


Well, I've had elbow problems, and several finger pully injuries. That has sometimes limited how often i've climbed, and how hard, and a couple of years back I decided it was best to try and improve slowly, rather than get another injury. However, my fingers are a lot stronger now so I have, over the winter, pushed things a bit more, although there's still a residual achiness in one elbow after climbing that I hope won't develop into the full-on pain it did before.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
The reasons you have got the replies you have is because people generally ask these questions ignoring certain factors, the main one being an objective overview of themselves as a climber.

Despite being a coach myself I recently concluded I needed to get stronger to improve my weak area of fingery moves on steep ground. I happened to be seeing a coach near the time anyway. Cut a long story short it was a technique issue and I saw very quick improvements due to altering how I moved.

That and the mental side are what holds back a HUGE majority of climbers. There is also a HUGE majority who can't see this.

At the grades you're discussing it's highly unlikely that strength is holding you back. Not that getting stronger is a bad thing to work on.

As Dan said you are training strength so why aren't you improving, at a decent rate, all other things being equal?

We can't answer that on a forum without seeing you climb.

However in answer to your general point yes it's very possible to make decent gains, long term, in middle age. You just have to be knowledgeable about your approach. If you don't have that knowledge you need to find someone who does - a coach perhaps

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
Sorry to bang on but repeated pulley injuries (and to a lesser extent elbows) are often technique related.

In reply to zimpara:


Generally medium. Also I was alternating between burly moves and crimps. Last night, the eighth day on, was probably the hardest - pushing to failure on (off!) crimps.

I'm not advocating eight days on for anyone. For more power (which is what I really need), one day on, one day off is probably best.

But I just felt like it!

Mick

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Now *that* is usable information, from which a reasonable, experienced climber (e.g. me) might deduce that endurance on easier moves is your comfort zone, and you're not good at bouldering harder moves because you haven't spent enough time learning the necessary techniques and tactics. Of course it's possible that pure finger strength is the issue, but if you actually pay attention to what most people here are trying to say to you, you would notice that most people think it's less likely.

What efforts have you put into trying to improve your finger strength so far? With what results?

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

My advice echos others:
>>>get a coach. Work with them to set a training plan in place to tackle the biggest weaknesses.
>>>go to Lattice training and do one of their strength assessments if that's honestly what you think is a weakness.

Both of these should focus you on what needs improving and it will be objective and not what you imagine your weakness to be.

finally a comment on age, sure as you get older some things change yet some things stay the same. I find that at 47 the most precious commodity in my life is spare time to do any of the above. My approach ahs been to really plan what I do when I get the time to climb. Some years its been about maintaining grade and some years improving. Indoors I hit Font7b last year, I hadn't plateaue'd as such but just lost my focus on training and climbing. In five years of climbing I have learned to measure improvement in millimetres and centremetres not metres.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I can't say because the weather's been too crap for any kind of translation outdoors. And translation's what it's all about - that video of Natalie was well named.

Despite the training, I may be staying still - or going backwards - just because of old age. But people on here think they're over the hill in their 40s, when I was hitting a peak in terms of power.

The only reason I mentioned eight days on is to show it's possible. Whether it's advisable or useful is another matter. And, after 40 years of training at this and that, I know my body very, very well indeed.

You've had some great advice on here from lots of people. Why not just sit back and think about what might work best for you?

A simple way of assessing training needs to is learn to redpoint, then have two grades - a redpoint one and an onsight one. Redpointing harder stuff will take the fear of the unknown out of increasing your onsight grade. And redpointing will show you what you need to be better at.

Good luck!

Mick

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

The really simple answer - get a coach!

Mick

In reply to AlanLittle:

I work sections of 6c+ to 7b routes on autobelays, use the woody board, work boulder problems with the hard moves close to the ground (dodgy knees). Resultwise, since Christmas there's a 6c+ route I previously couldn't do the crux moves on that I can now do completely, although when I tried leading it I found the clipping just took that little bit too much out of me to get the last move. And I've tried routes outside the last few weeks on which I couldn't previously do certain moves that I now can (they're not logged as I still fell off them higher up). The biggest improvements I feel I've made in the last four years are the improvements since Christmas by training strength, learning to flag a few years back, and when I started doing traverses on the circuit board to increase endurance a while back.

In reply to AlanLittle:

My last twopenneth on this.

Why do people often think they need to get stronger? Because they find it hard to hold on, or hold on for long. What normally limits that is their technique at this level. You get pumped/can't grip a hold others can. Therefore you must be weak. What often goes on is that your technique leaks energy everywhere. Therefore you fail before others.

The feedback you get from your body is your too weak/un fit. I got really pumped therefore I need to get fitter, or I couldn't hold the hold, or move to the next one, therefore I need to get stronger. If your arse is moving away from the wall whilst going for a hold or you initiate from your arms you will be incredibly inefficient. You also may not know you have these habits.

Comparing yourself to another climber is also the wrong thing to do. Everyone has so many strengths and weaknesses in different areas it's impossible to say why they perform better at bouldering than you and you perform better at endurance than them without analysing you both.

You need to analyse yourself, or have someone do it for you. If you're hesitant about coaching then 9 out of 10 climbers and the self coached climber are two good books. However there is still the risk of focussing on aspects you have already made a decision about rather than being objective. It's very hard to criticise yourself and admit your weaknesses, especially if they don't fit with what you feel you should be doing.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Some great replies here.

One thing I would add is about changing your routine. For strength training to make continuous gains you need to change what you do. A general rule is change every 6 weeks or so. That requires creative thinking and planning. I think it's easy to get stuck in the same routine for too long.

Another way to make faster improvements is to train areas you haven't trained much before. For instance if you haven't trained core before then you can make really fast improvements there, more easily than something you've been training for years.

In reply to stp:


Totally agree. Although I think you're about to get told off for giving unwanted advice!

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I think of your posts on this thread, this one is most revealing. My suggestion (as a 53 y/o, 7a/b climber who's been doing it for 20 years now) would be to get off the auto-belays and on lead. Always. You sounds the same as me in that you don't like falling. I know for sure that this is the one big thing holding me back from making further progress. Gains are always going to diminish as you run out of the more easily-achieved, early-days progress. The other suggestion is to get a regular, reliable partner who is of roughly the same ability and is as keen as you to progress . A competitive element to a training session is amazing at making you try that little bit harder.

Have you read any of the usual training books, frequently cited on here, eg. 9 out of 10 climbers....or Self Coached Climber? If not, I recommend them both.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

OK, I'll also give you a bit of personal history. I'm 55, I re-started climbing about five years ago after a long break (> 10 years) due to family, work & stuff. In my previous life I mostly climbed trad up to about E1/2; these days I'm mainly a spoort climber.

I could do 6a pretty much immediately; took about a year to get back to 6b, which was as hard as I had ever climbed before.

From there to 6c+ was another year. What made the difference: not trying to onsight everything, learning to redpoint

6c+ to 7a. What made the difference: as above, plus cleverer beta from a partner who climbs 7c

7a to 7a+: this year? I have several projects that I know I can do. What I need to work on: time & partner management. Organising multiple visits to the same crag, with partners who are interested in projecting.

I don't know what my limit will be, but I certainly don't feel like I'm anywhere near it yet.

I grew up as a climber crimping brick edges on 80s climbing walls, so finger strength as such has never been the issue. Pulling on little holds is the one area where I can occasionally show up kids a third of my age at the bouldering wall.

In reply to Fraser:


It's a case of making do with the time I've got which is often not the same time other people I climb with have free. So autobelays, bouldering etc. are better than nothing. And partners tend to drift in and out depending on their own work/family circumstances. I agree the competitive element can sometimes make a big difference.


I've got them both. Self coached climber is very useful.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I think the reason you may have been feeling like this is that the question you actually asked - whether it's possible to maintain improvement into the fr7s if you're middle aged and self diagnose as weak - has such an obvious answer that most people have basically taken it as read and have moved on to the next question which is why you seem to be doubting it yourself. Of course it's possible, the thing that's the key surely is working out how its possible for you.

Since you asked for peoples experiences, personally on a macro scale I've been improving since I started climbing at a steady rather than meteoric pace. Looking more narrowly 2015 was probably a dip for various reasons but the bigger picture is still one of improvement. One of my climbing partners took up climbing relatively late (late 30s? 40s? Im not sure) and has over the past few years chugged steadily away from high 6s and the bottom of the 7s to having done 7c and be trying 8as.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I agree with pretty much all of that, at times from personal experience. How much time can you allocate to training? If you're free to do what you want whenever you want, there's no reason at all why you can't continue to progress. At 46, that was probably about the age I started training properly and also, as others have recommended, trying hard. I mean properly hard ie. blood vessels standing out in the neck, feeling sick lowering off a hard redpoint and unable to untie once back on the ground! I was training last night with an 8c climber, both of us doing doubles and getting decent rest whilst the other person climbs. I've found those very effective in making decent improvements, at least in endurance.

Another issue may be weight - can you afford to lose any?

Are there any good walls in your area or do you have to travel? Can you visit other crags / walls and have a day onsighting hard stuff on unfamiliar territory?

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Just saw this post. The answer is yes. I slowly pulled myself up to climbing a couple of outdoors 7c's in 2011. (had to check the logbook there!) I was climbing a lot and training quite hard, moreso than I do now, but I'm sure I can still improve by training harder and more frequently, and getting onto rock more than I'm currently doing. As you said yourself, sometimes life gets in the way. But if you want it enough, you'll find a way to make it happen. (that's paraphrasing Dave Macleod incidentally). I still hope to climb 8a within the next couple of years, once I have more time available to train and climb.

In reply to AJM:


Slight thread hijack here (or possibly not). Andy, was your mate doing sports routes only, or did he mix some trad climbing in there too?

In reply to seankenny:

When we started climbing together it was predominantly trad climbing or a mix of trad and sport, although probably from about the time I went off in the van, so 2014 onwards, she has focussed more exclusively on sports climbing.

I think ignoring 2014 (long mainly sports trip) and 2015 (not much climbing full stop) I've maintained a reasonable balance between the two as well, although unsurprisingly improvements have probably been slightly faster in years where I've focussed more on one than the other.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I think if you were only climbing twice a week - and no other training - then progress would be slow. Three times is much better but I think you'll probably have to make sessions pretty intense and regimented. Bouldering, provided you have decent wall, would be better for strength. If you can supplement climbing with other forms of training then that would be a good option.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
I am also middle aged and trying to improve and for five years have been on a glacially slow upward curve. Initially i found this to be frustrating especially when climbing with people in their twenties. But I have come to a few conclusions that i would like to share. bouldering definitely works for gaining both strength and technique and if you cant do the crux move then you cant do the route. So bin the route time and boulder. Initially i thought that finger strength was everything but i have begun to realise that the combination of a decent crimp hold and technique is usually enough. The other thing i have noticed is that as older climbers we always seem to carry more weight than the youngies. I am tall and slim with an ideal bmi but almost everybody at the bouldering wall weighs less than me. Simple physics has also shown me that therefore i will never have sufficient pinch grip for some problems. lastly dont forget a slow upward curve means that you are less likely to get injured and at my age that is important.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Of course technique and trying hard are essential, but, all other things being equal, you can never be too strong. Like for you, strength is, I think, my main weakness (so to speak) - I've always just had naturally poor finger strength compared with most other people (though endurance seems to come relatively easily). As others have said, nothing will happen unless you change what you are doing. If I feel myself plateauing due to lack of strength, I try to focus properly on it for a few weeks. The last time I did this this was in February when the moves on my indoor project just felt too hard to ever link. I devised a sustained pure power problem on the system board with about 12 hand movements, each of which I could barely do in isolation, then did two sessions per week on it with four or five sets of four attempts, alternating the problem with its mirror image and with good rests between attempts. When I began to fade I did some sets of repeated dead hangs on a finger board. If it was wet at the weekend I did a general indoor session on routes, avoiding the project. I did some deadhanging sets at home too. After three weeks I succeeded on the problem and its mirror image (six sessions on it). When I went back on the project with my extra strength, the moves felt much easier and the whole thing much more realistic. Strength training is boring, but, if you want to get stronger, there's not much alternative. Of course bouldering is less boring, but I found the gains faster with this approach.

In reply to stp:


Not my own experience. I only climb at weekends generally (aside from holidays - currently getting in odd midweek days to use up my leave allowance). Until a few months ago, I never did anything at all midweek (now try to do a fingerboard session a week).

So, for almost the entirety of the last 7 years I've pretty much been just a "weekend warrior" and i like to think I've done okay. Maybe I would have progressed quicker climbing more often. But perhaps I'd have been a burnt-out wreck. I notice that the fit club thread is replete with people who climb 4-5x week... and then describe how they were thwarted by fatigue, injury, and sore skin when they finally got onto their target. I suspect two sessions a week is plenty to meet most reasonable expectations of progress - just try bloody hard and work smart when you do get on the rock.

This is something I've agonised about over the years, and in the past has led me close to giving up the sport. I've been climbing about 14 years regularly, starting out as a pure tradster and working up from VS through a long HVS period into reasonable solidity at E1; then in 2008 or so became mainly a sport climber and working up from 6b to about 7a or so now. I'm 41, so tick the middle-aged box I guess.

I've also always been more of a stamina person - able to do loads of routes at a grade, but get shut down on routes one or two grades harder. E.g. for a couple of years I was able to lead 8-12 indoor 6bs and still hadn't done a 6c. At the same time, friends who were a similar standard at leading could leave me standing at bouldering, especially on steeper crimpier things. The former issue turned out to be partly a fear of falling, and when I eventually bit the bullet with clip drop, I started to be prepared to take risks and try low percentage moves on 6c's, and I started scraping my way up them (I.e. feeling I was going to fall off, but holding on and getting to the chains).

The next step for me was definitely bouldering more, I bouldered a lot to try and get stronger. This worked, a bit, and also got me used to more dynamic climbing. I still sucked at crimps, as most indoor bouldering that I've had access to is blobby. One big learning process with bouldering was how to approach projecting on boulders: both experimenting with sequences, but more importantly taking much longer rests and really psyching for attempts and giving absolutely everything into those few moves. Helps bouldering with better people to get the beta really quickly, without wasting effort, and then devote the energy to actually executing the moves; also feedback from others was really helpful here, subtle things like focussing more on a foot/hand as you move, or how you're taking holds, or what your hips are doing, etc etc.

It reached a stage a couple of years ago when I felt the bouldering wasn't enough to make me stronger. I reached the point where the problems I couldn't do seemed to need more crimp strength, or more shoulder stability, or more power, than I had. I didn't see much change in those things from bouldering 2-4 times a week, even over months and months. I also started to get some injury issues with trying harder Boulder problems, both shoulders and fingers. I decided that weights had to be done, and did about 10 weeks of various heavy stuff, relatively low reps, relatively long rests, e.g. Weighted pull-ups, bench & shoulder press, squats, a lot of core. At the end of this I did some (punter level) campussing on big rungs, and got up to 1-3-5 on 2cm wide rungs. I started to nail some of the sorts of dyno problem that had shut me down in the past. This also translated to about an extra grade outside, and I ticked some 24s (7a?) outside at the start of this year.

I still get shut down on crimpier things at grades I can otherwise do. A couple of 24s had single move crimper cruxes that I couldn't do even after long rests on the rope, and this happened to me on a 22 (6c?), a grade I can mostly Onsight. So I've recently put most other training on hold, and am trying to get on my Beastmaker 1000 twice a week and focus on half crimps (inspired by RCTM). I am finding it hard to stay motivated, but I defintely am seeing gains in hang strength when I stick at it.

Apologies for the long essay, it's partly me processing where I'm at and where I'm going. My answer to the OP's question is yes, you can keep getting better, if:
- you continue refining what you're doing and identify what you need for the next step up. Usually that is different than what helped you up the previous step. As a mate of mine puts it: "if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got".
- you remember that to get stronger, there are subtle differences in training style vs endurance. Mainly, lots of rest both between and during sessions, and maximum physical and mental effort on the key attempts (whether moves or lifts). I think one reason some people (me!) remain weaker is they prefer to do a lot of climbing with little rest in a session, but this is inevitably less intense.
- you focus on improving a single aspect of your climbing for a decent chunk of time (4-10 weeks) while maintaining the rest of it. As the curve flattens off this becomes more necessary IMO to make enough of a difference.
- you are prepared to do non-climbing workouts, like weights, FB, pre-hab.

For some it works to just do a huge amount of outdoor climbing, and I wouldn't write this off for myself if it were logistically possible. I'm currently wrestling with low motivation for the fingerboard, even though I'm pretty sure its the shortest route to getting better for me, since crimps are my biggest weakness and also essential to Blue Mountains (my main climbing area) sport climbing at higher grades.

To quote another buddy of mine, it comes down to one thing: " you just gotta want it"

In reply to Siderunner:

Excellent essay.


This bit is crucial. I'm moving into redpointing in the low 7s (in my mid 50s) and projecting them together with a friend who climbs 7b/c has been enormously helpful.

For example a couple of weeks ago I did my first 7a-in-a-day. I started off trying an obvious sequence for the crux involving a high rockover, yarding on a tiny crimp to reach another tiny grotty slopy crimp. I might have managed it; or I might not, and might then have concluded that I am too weak and should have crimped harder.

Then my mate had a look at it and found a less obvious but much more economical solution using a low sidepull and a slightly different foot position, that meant by the time you reached the tiny grotty target crimp you were already standing comfortably in balance. Route in the bag.

So: too weak? Or just: not found the most economical sequence yet?

In reply to AlanLittle:


You tend to get routes quickly when they're a bit below your max level, because you can get away without being very efficient. The closer you get to your max level, the more you need to find the most efficient way.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Or: found the most economical sequence but still can't do it........... just need to get stronger.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
First of all I have to say that I do not train as such, I rely on just getting mileage in as I am a lazy b*stard. The advantage these days is that I can do that indoors and throughout the winter. I went indoors 3 times a week and could feel a steady improvement peaking at f7a and E5 in my 50's. I then lost my "mojo" for a few years, especially in the UK where it felt like I had done everything, and concentrated more on tough alpine routes and easier rock climbs that I had missed in my youth. Move on a few years and now 68 years old my head is wanting to climb f7a again but my body just won't let me despite climbing indoors 3 times a week over the previous winter. If I was willing to put in some structured, specific training I think I might still have an on sight f7a in me (I did manage one with a rest in Kalymnos last October but it turned out to be 6c+ so no cigar there) but I'm still the same lazy bugger just older.

The problem is that the window of opportunity between being nicely warmed up and being totally knackered keeps getting smaller and the risk of injury more of a worry. The moral is keep at it. Personally I don't get too hung up on the indoors grades as it bears little resemblance to the real thing.

Al

In reply to Robert Durran:


At your level maybe,but we're talking about someone trying to get regular at 6b. It's highly unlikely strength is holding him back.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:




So now you're moving slightly faster than the 'tar drop' experiment?

Andy F

In reply to biscuit:


I've not contributed anything to this thread for a while because it seems to be going better without my input (as a reminder I started the thread). However, let's see how many more dislikes I can generate by daring to suggest there's a sub 7a climber who can improve significantly by getting stronger, although to be honest I think I'd have more chance of winning people over to the Bear Grylls-is-a-really-decent-chap argument than to get most people to agree that gaining strength sub 7a is useful.

I'm assuming the "someone" you refer to is me. Firstly, I'll say again that as i started the thread looking for information I think you're a bit out of order continually doubting what I've said. You've made your point once, and although i keep it in mind, it's pretty arrogant to bang-on about it when you don't even know me. I've climbed regularly for over four years with lots of different people, it's not as if I've being doing this for 4 months. I think you said earlier on you were a coach, well if that's the case you'd probably not be top of my list if I were looking for one as you seem unable to credit other people with any sense or intelligence -- it actually puts me off getting advice from a coach.

As I said earlier, when i started climbing I couldn't pull myself up a 5a. To get to 6a seemed quite a challenge, but I think after about a year I could get up some proper 6a routes (rather than overgraded 5s), although I wasn't solid at it. So, I started from quite a low base, considering most people can climb 6a regularly within a few weeks or months at most. So in the intervening time I've slowly increased my ability to where the best indoor route I've got up is 6c+. So, if I were to slide the whole scale along one number grade that's numerically relatively-equivalent to going from sub-6a to 7c+. Okay, i know the numerical equivalence might not replicate the actual real-world equivalence, but it in part demonstrates a point, that point being that as i've made progress, you should at least credit me with some self-awareness as to my strengths and weaknesses. My on-sight grades aren't great, because i've not done much onsighting over the winter (indoor or out), and it's true that in not doing much of it that the taking-falls head suffers, but that doesn't affect the measure on which i'm basing my improvement. For information, indoors I probably onsight at a hit rate of 90% of 6a, 80% 6a+, and 50% 6b. Improving my go-for-it head would definately bump that up quite a bit, but that's not what I'm doing right now, I'm saving that for the better weather when I can climb outdoors regularly and get my take-a-fall head back. I've onsighted 6b+ outdoors, but they were all soft touches.

I'll mention technique now, as obviously in suggesting strength won't help me, that implies technique as one of the factors that will. Although i'm sure there are things I can still learn, and indeed things I've already learnt I can improve on, I can climb routes with good form and have several times had people who I've never met before comment as such. I can flag, climb with silent feet, clip with straight arms, know the importance of feet and overall body position, of course it does get a bit rough some days, but I can do it, and i do practice it. Indeed, I do like to work routes that are just a little bit too hard for me and that does reinforce the importance of these things.

Finally strength, well all my improvement has been accompnied by strength gain -- there's a correlation, so i'm assuming get stronger must be helping. Yes, other things have played a big part, and no doubt will do in the future, but getting stronger is a part of it -- despite what you believe and preach. In fact, I've found that in the other physical activities I've participated in over the last ten years (swimming, running) that I am well below the average on strength gain, and do have problems with injuries to my joints (one of my knees is knackered from running, and I was as low grade a runner as climber).

So, I suppose most people will think I'm talking a load of bollox and that I don't need to get stronger -- well tough, I don't agree. I'm not saying that the other things mentioned won't help, perhaps significantly so, but i also need to improve strength in my fingers and arms.

By the way, my best number of likes is 19 last time I counted, so if you're thinking of disliking me then go for it, as it would be nice to match the 19.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

By the way, my best number of likes is 19 last time I counted, so if you're thinking of disliking me then go for it, as it would be nice to match the 19.


Until this final statement you made some good points but lost it with this, its fairly clear you're now looking to be controversial.

I do however wish you all the best with your continued improvement as long as you keep on doing what your doing.

Good luck breaking the 7 barrier!

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Blimey!

I've never said you weren't self aware and never said anything dismissive/rude either. What I did say was being objective about yourself is very hard and it's very easy to plough on in the wrong direction when analysing yourself. I then gave you an example of how I had recently done exactly that. That was my attempt to show I wasn't being holier than though. We all do it.

In my experience (which is what you were asking for I believe, other peoples' experiences, as that is what their advice will be based on) I have not yet come across someone who can't make quicker gains through technique than strength. I'm currently working with someone who gets through to local Boulder comp finals etc. Flashes v8 and above. He's not weak. He had a huge fundamental error in his technique I spotted in his first session. Met back up two weeks later and he reported a significant improvement in his climbing. That's one of many similar stories. I am now working on strength and power with him but that needed sorting first.

You asked for people's advice and when they point out the advice you're asking for may be in the wrong direction you get grumpy about it. You're quite right about the fact you may not want to go to a coach. You have to trust them and at least try out what they suggest. It sounds like you may not be that personality type - which is fine obviously. We all find our own way.

i shall not get into a tit for tat over you making assumptions about how I operate in my job as you have no idea. Nor will I dislike your post, even if you come back and double dare me. I found that all a bit odd and feel it says more about you than me. I've liked posts but never disliked one. I prefer communicating. I guess it's unlikely but if you're ever near Manchester i'd happily give you a once over for an hour for free.

Finally you will note my comment was to Robert not yourself; though it was obviously about you. You also seemed to have dipped out as you yourself said.

He operates at a different level than you and has years of climbing behind him and seems to know his body well - though I bet he (like me) could improve techniques/tactics. He probably does need to get stronger for some moves. Trying to raise your grade at your level you probably don't.

Why do you think so many people have expressed this view?

They may not be right but don't blinker yourself from it. Climbing is first and foremost a technical sport.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

If you already "know" that strength is your weakness (the quotation marks are not because I'm singling you out as not being able to self assess your strengths and weaknesses very well, but simply because almost no climbers are), you're making slow improvements by keeping working strength and you're unwilling to accept that other people might have a different view of potential ways you could improve based on their own experiences, why bother posting at all? Just keep working strength and you'll probably keep improving slowly and you can feel happy about the fact you're working your weaknesses.

But if you want people to agree with you that what you need to do is get stronger, when for most climbers theres likely to be a far more pressing weakness (and therefore a shortcut to far faster improvement by addressing it), then you've probably come to the wrong forum. Nobody knows you, so yes, you could be one of those climbers for whom strength really is the limiting factor. But there are lots of climbers who self diagnose as too weak and very few climbers who actually are too weak for the grades they (in the short term) desire to climb.

You're currently flogging the strength horse and it's getting you somewhere slowly. Addressing a significant weakness should see relatively quick gains. This suggests that there's a reasonable chance that either you're better rounded than you think, or that you're flogging the wrong horse. At least look at it with an open mind.

In reply to flash13:


Well, my position from the start was by default controversial, so I can't see how the last statement regarding the dislikes changes anything. Anyway, for your information, the motivation for that last statement was a combination of humour, frustration and curiosity.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

It's almost like everyone is saying that the majority of climbers have difficulty working out their own weaknesses and therefore often follow the wrong path. We could all be wrong though, its not like there is a knowledgeable, experienced source to confirm that 9 Out Of 10 Climbers Make The Same Mistakes...

In reply to biscuit:


Yes. Thought i'd just clear a few things up whilst I had a minute. I'm not trying to be offensive, just put over my point.


If you take a random sample of climbers and they all climb/train exactly the same, then I guess if you look at the distribution of the grades they've achieved after, say, four years, it will follow some sort of normal distribution (i'm no biologist but it seems a reasonable assumption). If you're in, say, the 10% lower end of the distribution then the other 90% will view your failure to achieve what they have through reference to their own experiences, which will be reinforced by the 90% of their mates who've experienced the same. So, if strength wasn't an issue for them to attain that threshold, they'll have a hard time understanding why someone else couldn't obtain it and is claiming strength is the issue. They will resort to what they've experienced to explain it . You can apply that quite widely to other things in life.

In reply to AJM:

I'm keeping an open mind to the extent that if someone outside an internet forum can show me I'm wrong, then I'll accept it. To that end I might consider seeing a coach at some point, which no doubt Dandan82 will be delighted to hear.

In reply to stp:


Thanks for the input, that's a useful bit of advice I will apply, and thanks to everyone else who has outlined their own progress and added useful opinions.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

What differentiates people is trying hard. What holds a lot of people back is giving up too easy on routes. You have to be full on when you are at the wall or at the crag.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I most certainly am! (anticipates kickback from World Coaching Illuminati with glee)

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

I definitely get what you're saying. You're right to be wary of taking any particular viewpoint and ignoring another completely and we are all influenced by our own experiences.

Diagnosis via UKC is impossible. People have given their considered opinions, none of whom you know, are you any further in knowing what you should do?

One mistake many people make is chopping and changing what they do without seeing it through. There are many climbing strength programs available on the Internet (and a distinct lack of technique ones). Try one, stick it out, give it full effort and see what it does. That's the only way to know for sure.

I'm sure you will improve but if, for example, you're flagging a lot (and therefore foot swapping, or not using your flagging leg effectively) you will be holding yourself back no matter how strong you get. As injuries etc are an issue for you training hard to get strong could be a path to misery. Technique improvements however reduce injury risk and allow for more effective training.

I would not say don't strength train but get some technique looked at first.

Anyway I wish you luck and hope you will report back how it went.

In reply to biscuit:




I have a tendency to think that if I have to hop to change feet mid way up a route that I have read it wrong and I try, not always successfully, to find some other way of doing it.

Al

In reply to wurzelinzummerset


I'm middle aged (depending how you classify middle aged) and started from a weak fingered base but have continued to get stronger oVer a period of decades. Does that answer your question?

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


This is true and a good point.

But if you're in the bottom 10% of your peer group at 6c+ indoors after four years, then I'd say congratulations, you have a pretty strong peer group. Most people I know tend to plateau out at around 6b, and only the ambitious make it into the low 7's.

I'm also impressed because I've never redpointed 6c+ in a upward direction indoors. I've done 7a an handful of times on real routes. And 7b on circuits, helped by the fact you you don't need a patient belayer and you don't have to expend energy getting to the crux, you can just step on and work it to death. But iirc on indoor routes my personal best is 6c & I've only ever managed that once or twice. I don't handle unrelenting pumpiness well, and that tends to be how indoor routes are set at my local walls.

In reply to Mick Ward:
Hi Mick, fancy seeing you on this thread! Maybe the OP would be more inclusive as 'old and weak and feeble'
To the OP, I'm 56, and have had two terms of climbing, 20s and mid 40s onwards. Like Mick, I probably climb or train 5/7 these days, and enjoy the training as much as the climbing.
There has been a common thread between both of my climbing 'eras' and progression, and that has been who I've climbed with rather than how I train.
In my 20s I learned to climb with a group who were operating in the mid to upper extremes. This bunch made no allowances for beginners, and I was dragged and pushed up stuff without sympathy and then roundly applauded or derided in turn. A 'proper' apprenticeship across rock types and no training, just climbing every spare minute. Importantly, falling off onto gear. Lots.
Coming back as a fat, mid 40s, I climbed lots and started training, but again it's been climbing with Mrs Paul in Sheffield, and my grown up son and his mates who have made the migration from hard-core Parkours to hard bouldering which has done the trick again. Not as brutal as the first time, pretty supportive even, but driven by a steely determination to improve, and healthy competition.
i would suggest that this is easily as important as the details of a training regime. I think even Ben M is being coached by one of the Wideboyz in preparation for Northern Lights.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

In the good old days I think who you climbed with made a huge difference. During the 60's and 70's my peer group were climbing routes that get E1 and E2 today. At that time I would say that the leading climbers and those we aspired to copy, were climbing what is now considered to be E4 and even E5. If one of our group managed something a little harder, sometimes by joining the next group in the higher division for a period of time, that tended to open up that grade for the rest of us and we all progressed. It was friendly competition along the lines of "well if he can do it so can we".

Al

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
Quite an interesting thread. Some very informative replies to mull over.
Be bold, train harder/more frequently/longer is my opinion.

When i want to get strong on a bike, i go straight to 100mile rides. Massive abuse. Usually able to do 150-200miles at 18-19mph in 3-4months.

I'm getting on the massive abuse tactic with climbing now. Will see how that goes.
Technique wise I'm quite clean, fingers let me down (in that i simply cant hold the hold) Having stronger fingers never hurts I guess.

Good luck anyway

In reply to zimpara:




So are you proposing to do massive volume to get stronger fingers?

In reply to zimpara:




Finger tendons and ligaments are not resilient to massive abuse

In reply to zimpara:

Not really the best way to get stronger or fitter, will take longer to recover and very likely to get injured, shorter harder sessions are the way forward, better to finish feeling there is still something in the tank, good luck with that!.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Too many people think that loads of training and spending 5 days at the wall and paying for a coach etc, will eventually get them up to at least 7c.

Well, whilst doing all the above will undoubtedly make you better than if you didn't, it won't unfortunately, guarantee you'll become a good climber.

Simple fact us, not everyone can climb hard (7b+ and upwards on a consistent basis) irrespective of what those with a vested commercial interest will tell you. There are many different factors which contribute to what makes someone able to climb hard, and some of them are unfortunately beyond what you can train or learn.

The most important factor is to do what makes you happy and gives you most enjoyment - irrespective of the grade. They're only numbers, and in the general scheme of things, mean absolutely f*ck all