UKC

Dave MacLeod has repeated Chris Sharma's Practice of the wild, ~8C, at Magic Wood/Averstal. This was the 37 year old's first of the grade.

As always, there is a great write up on his blog, but in short:

- The footage of Ty Landman climbing the problem is what made Dave go to Magic wood in the...

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In reply to UKC News:

Does this make him the oldest person to climb 8C? Gives those of us on the wrong side of 30 some hope of continued progress!

In reply to PeteH:

Fred Nicole

In reply to UKC News:

Can this man become any more talented??! Surely the best all round climber in the world.

In reply to PeteH:

What really is striking is that someone as driven as Dave, who has been at the forefront in most discliplines for many, many years, is now climbing harder than ever before.

In reply to Toccata:

Indeed. Anyone got a list of his hardest routes in each discipline?

In reply to UKC News:

Does ~8C mean "approximately 8C"?

In reply to ericinbristol:
From memory probably:
Sport: A meurte 9a
Trad: Echo wall E?? With effectively an 8c solo
Winter: probably Anubis XII(?), the summer E8

Any advances?

In reply to mal_meech:

Also his own 9a Fight the Feeling.

But just listing his very hardest routes doesn't really get to the nub of the matter which is that he's been at the vanguard in pretty much all (non-Alpine) climbing disciplines for a very long time.

The first three E9s in Scotland, To Hell and Back (E10) in the Cairngorms, Rhapsody, Echo Wall, Longhope Direct. More repeats at E9+ away from the grit than anyone else I imagine.

things like Sabotage at Dumbarton.

Ring of Steall (Cubby's Project) - first Scottish 8c+?

His winter routes were well ahead of their time in the UK. Cathedral, The Hurting, Dont Die, Anubis etc

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Aye, and he's only getting stronger... (Or lighter...

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Never mind this, hard as it is - Seven of Nine, Big Long Now, Natural Method, Sanction, Pressure..... eek.

In reply to UKC News:

He had a spare tyre? Yeah right

In reply to mal_meech:

In the video of A Muerte he had the whole hard section (first 4-5 bolts) of the climb pre-clipped. Weird.

In reply to DanGreb:

If it's the same video that I'm thinking of, doesn't he climb up - clip the first few bolts - down climb - rest - climb to the top?

In reply to UKC News:

Good to see DM on the low-carb bandwagon, I think his sport science background combined with his cutting edge performance will make for interesting reading. I think it will be extremely interesting when a high profile alpinist reports back on the potential for performance enhancement.

In reply to ben.phillips:
Yes, that's true.

Also, it's not the crux section...I recall him saying the part he down climbed was 8b+

In reply to Removed User:

I may be reading too much into your words, but you look like you might be walking into a confirmation bias trap. Also, why "high profile"? How does a climber's social media presence influence the quality of the data they provide? Wouldn't you find reports of no or negative performance enhancements from ordinary alpinists 'interesting'?

In reply to UKC News:

What an absolute living legend... doesn't seem to get the credit he deserves. Thing I love about Dave is his attitude, he has such an insane work ethic, but he's the friendliest, humblest chap you could hope to meet. Definitely has to be the greatest all rounder in the history of climbing regarding grades - it will be a very long time before anybody topples it too because of his trad benchmarks; trad alone he could be the best ever so far.

In reply to Toccata:


But what has he onsighted? (Serious question). Obviously he has onsighted a lot, but at world class level?

In reply to Robert Durran:
According to this: http://www.lchr.org/a/25/5v/climbing/onsights/onsights.html He's onsighted a few E7's, though this website was last updated in 2002, so it's undoubtedly out of date now.

EDIT: Also in the replies to this blogpost ( http://davemacleod.blogspot.co.uk/2006/07/divided-years.html ) dave says this about trying E8 onsights:

"If I was going to try an E8 onsight I'd pick one that had a good consensus, didnt rely on insitu gear (which might be corroded) and had had lots of quick ascents. I want to stay alive!"

In reply to CaelanB:

You would think that with Dave's all-round ability at everything else, he would crush some of the 'sporty' E8s in the Leap etc if he put his mind to it.

There have been occasional snipes about his lack of headline-grabbing onsights for years. It seems he's less bothered about filling out that part of the application to be Undisputed Champion of Allround Waddage in the eyes of internet bean-counters than just climbing what he wants to climb.

For what it's worth, I think he has done quite a lot of E7s.

In reply to Andy Moles:


Note that I was not having a "snipe". Just questioning the tag of "best all rounder" which others were applying when he's not (?) world class onsighting in any discipline (?). Anyway, he does what he wants to do and does it extremely well.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Sorry Robert, I didn't mean to suggest you were. But I have seen quite a bit of it in the past, and I thought your post might open the door. It'd be a shame if an article about a pinnacle of achievement turned into a discussion of what he hasn't done.

I guess it's the natural course of debate when grand proclamations are made about someone being the Greatest.

In reply to Marek:

I said it would be interesting to see the results for potential performance improvements. The reason high profile is important is that it could spur others to try this and we would get a more valid dataset. I work in science and am aware of issues surrounding bias. However the key point here is that a few high profile climbed undertaking their own investigations will get the conversation going

In reply to Andy Moles:


And I didn't mean to suggest that you were suggesting I was.......

In reply to Removed User:

>... The reason high profile is important is that it could spur others to try this and we would get a more valid dataset...

There are probably enough athletically-incline people trying this sort of thing already. The real challenge is accessing, collating and cleaning the data (most of which is undocumented) rather than generating more data. Short of a proper scientific project, I'm not sure how one might go about that task. As I just read this morning, "No data is better than bad data" (which may or may not be true).

In reply to Removed User:

I think that's unfair. Dave clearly put a lot of research into his dietary regime, and he's been quite measured in his comments - as opposed to the all too common evangelical approach when it comes to diet. He's an elite athlete, carrying what he claimed was about 15% bodyfat, and looking to make the jump from a stratospheric grade to an even more stratospheric grade. What was right for him is not necessarily right for everyone.

In reply to UKC News:

Nice one Dave good effort, nice to see more progress especially with bouldering.

Maybe we'll see an increase in your sport leading some time soon also

In reply to Robert Durran:
Robert I believe the all rounder term is meant to mean there are few better at all climbing disciplines not that he is the best (or that close to it) in any particular one. I think his best red point sport lead isn't that far different (propotionally to the hardest in the world) to his best onsight on trad.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


The trouble is that these "best all rounder " tags depend entirely on what disciplines you arbitrarily choose to include (though it usually just happens to be the selection that a particular climber happens to excel in!) and are therefore usually fairly meaningless. If, say, you include alpinism and big wall climbing then Dave wouldn't come close, whereas if you restrict it to worked climbing of types found in the UK, then he is certainly there or thereabouts (though, as your post seemed to imply, his 9a redpoint arguably isn't anything really exceptional by current world standards!).

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Do you not think that he is 'close to it' in most of his disciplines? Trad: tick, sport: pretty close to tick I'd say, bouldering: tick, winter: tick.

In reply to Fraser:

It wasn't really the point I was making.

But his UK trad summer and winter climbing really are world class in isolation IMO. Bouldering 8C is world class IMO as there are few 8C+ problems. However the hardest sport climb is now F9b+.

In reply to Fraser:


Well 'Winter' is a pretty broad church. Presumably you mean Scottish Winter (Trad), as opposed to say, Winter ascents of 8000 metre peaks... for which Dave might want to get that 15% body fat back.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Well indeed. He's probably one of the best, if not the best, all-rounders in the disciplines that happen to dominate in the UK. I doubt he loses much sleep over missing out on a Piolet d'Or because of it.

In reply to CurlyStevo & planetmarshall :
Yes, I'd agree with both your comments. I know the sport is somewhat off the top tick right now, but 9a is still pretty far 'up there' in terms of the percentage of total climbers operating at that level.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Yeah I agree in a way its meaningless as you can't make a measurement between different disciplines especially when there is a large disparity in comparative climbers abilities.

However his best onsight trad is still comparatively as good as his best redpoint sport lead IMO so wasn't particularly relevant for you to single out when discussing him as an all rounder IMO.

I was also thinking similar about his performance abroad on larger scale climbs I know he's done some but its not something I can comment on.

In any case f8C is a great effort from dave. Perhaps this will translate to an increase in his sport / trad bests also

In reply to Robert Durran:


Apart from of course he's climbed the hardest route on the eiger (Ueli Stecks hardest route?), note able things in the Dolomites, big walls with 8c climbing in them and new routes in Patagonia...

You really seem to have an axe to grind!

In reply to TGreen:


I don't read it like that at all. Robert's just making the point that you can make the argument for someone being a great all rounder by picking and choosing the disciplines they happen to be good at. I don't see it as any kind of criticism, and I doubt it bothers Dave one jot.

In reply to Fraser:

For me the most remarkable thing about DM is not his consistently high performance level across a range of climbing disciplines (that his onsighting and sport climbing achievements are, almost unbelievably, getting a bit of a knock here, is simply a sign of how much we've come to expect of him).

Instead it is the consistently interesting and insightful things he has to say about his experience of climbing - and of course the exemplary manner in which he unfailingly conducts himself.

In reply to TGreen:

Not at all. Dave is exceptional at all the things he has chosen to focus on (apart, arguably, from sport - after all, 9a has been onsighted and now casually dispatched by kids pretty much straight from the indoor wall!). I have simply been questioning the "best all rounder" thing - as I have said, it just seems pretty meaningless.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I guess - how do you compare with Honnald for example, has Dave soloed any hardish big walls? Has Honnald done any technical mixed climbing?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

But that's the point of the discussion I suppose. Honnold has soloed big walls (and done some amazing Patagonian climbing), but his bouldering and sport climbing are 'relatively' modest. How many of the kids who bash out 9a ALSO boulder the top grades, lead E12 and winter XII....?
It doesn't matter anyway. It's not like we're ever going to come out with an algorithm which can declare the actual, factual, quantifiable 'best all round climber' Fun to discuss though.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think 'great all rounder' is as useful a tag as, say, 'brilliant sport climber'. Of course (as you point out) you have to cherry pick to a degree as no-one can be exceptional, or even perhaps great, at everything. I guess you can think of it in terms of various 'categories', and it seems fair to have one concentrating on bouldering/sport/trad/winter. It's not uncommon to talk about 'great all rounders' who don't even do winter climbing! Perish the thought.

As for onsighting / working trad routes, obviously MacLeod excels more in the latter (he could probably justifiably be titled 'best headpointer') but then consider things like Anubis (summer) which he only inspected then climbed second go. Onsighting in winter climbing he's probably as good as anyone excluding Greg Boswell (multiple IXs) and of course the harder routes were all done ground-up (or in the case of The Hurting, after pre-inspection).

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


(Slowly raises a finger). I remember this article from years ago........

http://kevinthaw.kahrlconsulting.com/Misc/WorldBest.htm

In reply to Robert Durran:


I guess you've never actually climbed have you?

In reply to Juicefree:

Err...

Mick

In reply to UKC News:

I always thought "all the 8s" was a great definition of all rounder. All the 9s is going to be more of a challenge. At least on earth

In reply to Marek:

I am specifically interested in performance in terms of Alpine climbing, rather than the rather more basic gains of losing weight. Imagine the performance enhancement available for a fully keto adapted individual, who needs to carry substantially less weight in food/fuel on a multiday push, because he/she has the ability to efficiently convert body fat. It seems to me the ideal sport to benefit from such a diet, unlike say road bike racing where power outputs oscillate and often peak near maximum.

I've not read anything regarding Alpinists on low-carb, the nearest data is probably from ultra-runners. You're right about the difficulty of executing well controlled studies and bad data or course.

In reply to Juicefree:


Actually I have been climbing enthusiastically in an all round sort of way for 35 years. It would be interesting to know what your point is.

I was once amused to be described in a mag (reporting my repeat of a winter route at a grade which would probably nowadays be considered maybe a notch above entry level) as an "experienced all rounder". I read this as "quite old and never particularly good at anything" (true).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well it would be odd to include it if we're talking about rock climbing, odd to exclude it if talking about British climbing but equally odd to include it without also including alpinism (and probably one or two other disciplines) if talking globally. And odd to include it at all if talking about a non British climber.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I guess that makes the point that when we talk 'all rounder' we often mean 'all rounder based in the UK.'

In reply to Removed User:

With respect to the diet, I read up the medical recommendations based ( presumably) on decent clinical trials and to paraphrase... "The diet has some negative side-effects (weakened bones, kidney stones...) but on balance they are preferable to epileptic seizures (which is what the diet was designed to control)". That didn't sound like a good basis for a casual (non medically monitored) lifestyle diet, so I left it there.

In reply to ben.phillips:

This is the video:

https://www.facebook.com/hotaches/videos/10150258939443984/

To be perfectly honest I haven seen anything like it.

In reply to Peter Walker:

That's true. He doesn't clip the bolt at the crux which is the next one after the 4 pre-clipped bolts.

In reply to DanGreb:

He clips the bolts then down climbs without weighting the rope. What is the issue?
Makes perfect tactical sense if you're strong enough to do it.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Apparently some people did take issue with it - legit tactic for British trad but not sport redpointing, apparently. Shrug.

In reply to DanGreb:

Redpointing is all about marginal gains for optimum performance. If that means not stopping to clip a crux bolt and risking a long but safe fall instead then so be it. If it means clipping and downclimbing to a rest so you're fresher for the sequence above the clip then so be it. If the rest happens to be the ground then so be it.

I remember doing something similar on Four Door Dostoyevsky a long time ago. Every time I would power out on the crux right after doing a really hard clip, so eventually I realised that by 'working' the downclimb from the crux 4th bolt I could then climb it without having to stop to clip, which I did very soon afterwards. It's not something that would be useful on many routes but on some occasions it can make the marginal difference between success and failure, so it's a tool worth having in your toolbox.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I think the real issue is with clipping bolts and then not down climbing at all. It's becoming increasingly common to have the first bolt or two or three pre-clipped without ever having down climbed, or even clipped on lead, ever!

In reply to stp:
I definitely remember some people criticising the tactic of clipping a large portion of the route and downclimbing, possibly on 8a.nu. It seemed strange to me at the time and still does. Tried to find a link but can't, so maybe I'm making it all up.

* Edit: The criticism seemed strange, not the tactic.

In reply to stp:

I always thought the real issue some people have with clipping bolts is the existence of the bolts at all.

In reply to Mick Ward:



To be fair, it just goes to show that despite age, experience, and wisdom that you can still come up with dumb statements from time to time. Tell you what - ask Steve McClure if 9a is as easy as RB appears to believe it is.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Fair enough.

Sometimes things seem a bit different or confused in Europe. Steve Mac got some flak for using a tree or bush as a hold when he onsighted an 8c. Yet in the country using whatever is there naturally is perfectly normal and some routes are even named after the shrubs that are used on climbs.

In comps once you've left the ground you can't go back down so maybe if viewed from that perspective some people thought it was wrong for Dave to down climb.

In reply to Helen Bach:

RD? I never suggested it was in any way easy, just perhaps that it wasn't as close to the cutting edge as worked 8C or worked E11. As for asking what he had onsighted, it was, well, a question and some people (thanks) actually took the trouble to answer it (rather than just mindlessly pressing the "dislike" button!). In fact their answers , for me, if anything strengthen the validity of the "best all rounder" tag. It's just that the big numbers associated with DM are usually the worked ones (The video was even called "E11") - perhaps inevitably, because worked numbers are always going to be bigger than onsighted ones and bigger numbers are sexier.

Not sure about the alpinism though. Bellavista and Paciencia might better be described as "big hard rock climbs in the Alps" rather than "proper" gnarly alpinsm (I would put them in separate categories, though others might disagree). I mean, Paciencia isn't exactly the Harlin is it? Chalk and cheese. Even Robbie Phillips has done it and he admitted to me that he was a bit gripped seconding a grade V punter route in Scotland last winter!

And is a Big Wall still a Big Wall once it's done free or does it then become a Big Rock Climb? To me "Big Wall" conjures up dodgy skyhooks and copperheads rather than 8c (but maybe I'm just old fashioned.......).

In reply to GrahamD:


Yes, though the triple 9 (E9, 9a, IX) is definitely a fair challenge! Come to think of it, has anyone else achieved this apart from Dave MacLeod?