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My examples will be very Peak-centric (apologies) but presumably some climbers will recognise something similar in their own areas.
So, quick after work session last night organised at the very last moment via UKC, I met up with Mark and we did 4 VSs at Curbar before the sunset. They weren't necessarily dirty, but neither were they the polished sheen of Stanage Popular, Heather Wall (VS 5a) (Curbar, the route of the same name at Stanage is though a very good example of the opposite to this!) did have bracken growing in it though! I visited Chatsworth Edge for the first time a few weeks back and found a perfectly OK Vdiff in similar conditions. I've been Sheffield based for nearly 2 years now and have spent a lot of time at Stanage and Burbage North, but I tend not to do the same routes twice so am moving on to slightly less obvious venues as well. But I was really quite surprise by how these VSs at Curbar, some of which even get a star and are all nice routes, get so little attention?
The same thing was evident where I used to climb in Helsinki, some crags popular other ones nearby with routes of the same grade neglected. So what is it that does that? Are most the climbers of the mega popular VS routes at Stanage once a year visitors, up for the weekend from down south or further north? Then totally understandable they would focus on the classics - why not? But surely there are plenty of other people like me who have done most of the routes at their grade on these classic crags and need to move on to other cliffs to find more routes of that grade? Or are we actually quite small in number so that these routes don't get done that much? Heather Wall has 5 recorded ascents in the last calendar year. Even if we triple or quadruple that for people who don't have UKC logbooks, its not so many.
Not really sure what point I'm making beyond why do some routes get little attention when they are geographically very close to some other routes of the same grade that must be amongst the most climbed in the country?
Post edited at 11:59
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In reply to TobyA:
Well, when we travel to a far away crag, we are going to the best of the best in that area, eg
Baggy Point
We climb Lost Horizon (VS 5a)
Shangri-La (S 4a)
Kinkyboots (VS 4c)
Stanage Popular
Heaven Crack (VD)
Black Hawk Traverse Left (VD)
Scoop Crack (HS 4c)
Balcony Buttress (S 4a)
Hollybush Crack (VD)
Cant climb everything at your grade at a crag in a day or two. Just too much rock.
Well, when we travel to a far away crag, we are going to the best of the best in that area, eg
Baggy Point
We climb Lost Horizon (VS 5a)
Shangri-La (S 4a)
Kinkyboots (VS 4c)
Stanage Popular
Heaven Crack (VD)
Black Hawk Traverse Left (VD)
Scoop Crack (HS 4c)
Balcony Buttress (S 4a)
Hollybush Crack (VD)
Cant climb everything at your grade at a crag in a day or two. Just too much rock.
Post edited at 12:27
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3
In reply to TobyA:
People go to the crags they have heard of. Virtually everyone in the country knows about Stanage and the Roaches so that's where they end up when they are visiting. If you are local then just go up there mid week and climb somewhere more remote at weekends.
The depressing thing is that this also applies to mountain ranges - I have found it v hard to persuade people to go anywhere abroad that isn't called "Chamonix" or "Zermatt"
People go to the crags they have heard of. Virtually everyone in the country knows about Stanage and the Roaches so that's where they end up when they are visiting. If you are local then just go up there mid week and climb somewhere more remote at weekends.
The depressing thing is that this also applies to mountain ranges - I have found it v hard to persuade people to go anywhere abroad that isn't called "Chamonix" or "Zermatt"
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4
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In reply to TobyA:
Curbar is brilliant for major and minor classics around the most popular lower grades. The fact routes get vegetated there is just down to lack of imagination and a silly reputation. Chatsworth is very good but is in condition less often. This is grit season... long days, usually not too hot (and shade available if it is), no midges and the vegetation (bracken and nettles) have not yet overtaken the crag environment.
Part of the reason we put "Smile" together on p.89 in Froggatt was to highlight some wider travel possibilities and that the next grade up was very realistic if the safe brutes have fallen.
Even quieter than the up minor classics are the traverses. On the crags you mentioned try The Republican Tour (Chatsworth) or Tantalus (Curbar) but also The Long Promenade and Ghost Train.
Curbar is brilliant for major and minor classics around the most popular lower grades. The fact routes get vegetated there is just down to lack of imagination and a silly reputation. Chatsworth is very good but is in condition less often. This is grit season... long days, usually not too hot (and shade available if it is), no midges and the vegetation (bracken and nettles) have not yet overtaken the crag environment.
Part of the reason we put "Smile" together on p.89 in Froggatt was to highlight some wider travel possibilities and that the next grade up was very realistic if the safe brutes have fallen.
Even quieter than the up minor classics are the traverses. On the crags you mentioned try The Republican Tour (Chatsworth) or Tantalus (Curbar) but also The Long Promenade and Ghost Train.
Post edited at 13:41
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In reply to TobyA:
Perhaps for similar reasons to why people sometimes stick to well-known restaurants / hotels e.g. Hiltons] / holiday destinations [e.g. Spain]: they're well publicized, they've previously been taken there by friends, and they stick with the familiar.
> ....The same thing was evident where I used to climb in Helsinki, some crags popular other ones nearby with routes of the same grade neglected. So what is it that does that?....
Perhaps for similar reasons to why people sometimes stick to well-known restaurants / hotels e.g. Hiltons] / holiday destinations [e.g. Spain]: they're well publicized, they've previously been taken there by friends, and they stick with the familiar.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
Actually The Roaches can be surprisingly quiet once you get away from The Great Slab area.
Actually The Roaches can be surprisingly quiet once you get away from The Great Slab area.
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In reply to TobyA:
It's the same everywhere Toby.
Great new guide to the north coast of Penwith available, yet Bosigran is crowded as ever and virtually every other north coast crag is dead.
I tend to think that down here it's a bit more to do with people not having to walk any distances that makes certain crags very popular, Carn Barra for example - in every way the equal of Sennen is pretty much always dead whilst Sennen is nearly always heaving - suits me and understandable really.
It's a bit more confusing in somewhere like The Peak when the walk ins are all fairly similar and pretty much every crag has three star routes.
I recently went to Baslow and did amongst others The Balls Test, Rib Direct and Renaissance, the equals in quality of many of the big names at Stanage and Burbage really and all in total peace and quiet - be thankful for it!
It's the same everywhere Toby.
Great new guide to the north coast of Penwith available, yet Bosigran is crowded as ever and virtually every other north coast crag is dead.
I tend to think that down here it's a bit more to do with people not having to walk any distances that makes certain crags very popular, Carn Barra for example - in every way the equal of Sennen is pretty much always dead whilst Sennen is nearly always heaving - suits me and understandable really.
It's a bit more confusing in somewhere like The Peak when the walk ins are all fairly similar and pretty much every crag has three star routes.
I recently went to Baslow and did amongst others The Balls Test, Rib Direct and Renaissance, the equals in quality of many of the big names at Stanage and Burbage really and all in total peace and quiet - be thankful for it!
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In reply to Tom Last:
Yeah Baslow does seem to be very quiet, although I can see that being micro routes it doesn't have the same feel as the big buttresses at Stanage or Millstone. I've tried doing Renaissance as a boulder problem but got the fear at the break and traversed off along that. Not sure if that means I've actually done the hard bit.
Interesting what you say about Cornwall, as there are limited populations within the county itself I sort of presumed that most climbers will be weekend visitors?
Yeah Baslow does seem to be very quiet, although I can see that being micro routes it doesn't have the same feel as the big buttresses at Stanage or Millstone. I've tried doing Renaissance as a boulder problem but got the fear at the break and traversed off along that. Not sure if that means I've actually done the hard bit.
Interesting what you say about Cornwall, as there are limited populations within the county itself I sort of presumed that most climbers will be weekend visitors?
In reply to TobyA:
It is very much the same everywhere Toby. Certain crags just get to be well known, and for some inexplicable reason, others nearby with quality routes get ignored. I think sometimes it's to do with quick access, sometimes it's to do with people just going where they have heard of, and sometimes it got more to do with people wanting to be able to say they've 'climbed at Stanage', whereas 'climbed at Laddow' doesn't have the same ring to it! Some folk like to be seen at the 'in' crag, whereas the more discerning climber might not care too much about that, and might want to get out of the way a bit more.
Here in Cumbria the classic VSs at Shepherd's get hammered all the time, yet a three star VS at Eagle Crag - Falconer's Crack - only has 1 recorded ascent on here during 2015, and 2 during 2014 (none so far this year).
Make the most of it I say. Enjoy the solitude!
It is very much the same everywhere Toby. Certain crags just get to be well known, and for some inexplicable reason, others nearby with quality routes get ignored. I think sometimes it's to do with quick access, sometimes it's to do with people just going where they have heard of, and sometimes it got more to do with people wanting to be able to say they've 'climbed at Stanage', whereas 'climbed at Laddow' doesn't have the same ring to it! Some folk like to be seen at the 'in' crag, whereas the more discerning climber might not care too much about that, and might want to get out of the way a bit more.
Here in Cumbria the classic VSs at Shepherd's get hammered all the time, yet a three star VS at Eagle Crag - Falconer's Crack - only has 1 recorded ascent on here during 2015, and 2 during 2014 (none so far this year).
Make the most of it I say. Enjoy the solitude!
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In reply to TobyA:
Well obviously - everyone!
Comparing (say) Chatsworth or Baslow to Stanage is a bit bizarre - the reason the 'Big S' is so popular is that it a fantastic cliff with many hundreds of classics lined up in rows. Chatsworth and Baslow etc. are pleasant enough and certainly worth a few visits but they are blatantly inferior venues,
Chris
> Who goes to very popular crags?
Well obviously - everyone!
Comparing (say) Chatsworth or Baslow to Stanage is a bit bizarre - the reason the 'Big S' is so popular is that it a fantastic cliff with many hundreds of classics lined up in rows. Chatsworth and Baslow etc. are pleasant enough and certainly worth a few visits but they are blatantly inferior venues,
Chris
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Sure, sure, more my point is there must be loads of people like me who have done many (most?) of the starred VSs at Stanage and want to onsight more routes, so obviously the starred VSs at Curbar, Froggat etc. will be next - so just surprised that a starred VS at Curbar looked so little climbed. This isn't to say that Stanage doesn't deserve to be popular, just I'm surprised there isn't more "spread" than there is to other crags.
Sure, sure, more my point is there must be loads of people like me who have done many (most?) of the starred VSs at Stanage and want to onsight more routes, so obviously the starred VSs at Curbar, Froggat etc. will be next - so just surprised that a starred VS at Curbar looked so little climbed. This isn't to say that Stanage doesn't deserve to be popular, just I'm surprised there isn't more "spread" than there is to other crags.
In reply to TobyA:
On sight trad, that's a bit niche. Lots of top rope seconds, and leaders in groups knowing what they are in for, makes the known more known.
On sight trad, that's a bit niche. Lots of top rope seconds, and leaders in groups knowing what they are in for, makes the known more known.
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Stanage Popular is great on a good day away from a crowded weekend but very much below par most of the summer (too warm and too midgy) and winter (too exposed and cold) yet the crowds come despite other venues being way more pleasant. The best routes at Chatsworth would deserve their stars at Stanage.. and most low extreme leaders could climb a week there at this time of year without getting bored. Baslow is even better in my view but mostly in the boulderer-cross over territory that you seem to under-rate.
Stanage Popular is great on a good day away from a crowded weekend but very much below par most of the summer (too warm and too midgy) and winter (too exposed and cold) yet the crowds come despite other venues being way more pleasant. The best routes at Chatsworth would deserve their stars at Stanage.. and most low extreme leaders could climb a week there at this time of year without getting bored. Baslow is even better in my view but mostly in the boulderer-cross over territory that you seem to under-rate.
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In reply to TobyA:
I wouldn't go back to stanage popular, or baggy.
I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived, same for stanage. Climb a Vdiff and then down climb a diff. Just WEIRD
I wouldn't go back to stanage popular, or baggy.
I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived, same for stanage. Climb a Vdiff and then down climb a diff. Just WEIRD
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In reply to zimpara:
Thiss eplains why your climbing gear's so shiny then lol
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=640960
Thiss eplains why your climbing gear's so shiny then lol
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=640960
Post edited at 17:56
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In reply to TobyA:
Beats me Toby. We were at St Govan's East last Saturday which probably had some of the best conditions in the south of the UK for that day (I checked the forecast for everywhere) and there was no one else on the cliff. It's brilliant from HVS to E4 and it was a Bank Holiday weekend.
As you've discovered, Curbar, Stanage North, etc all super quiet. I don't get it, but I do enjoy it.
Beats me Toby. We were at St Govan's East last Saturday which probably had some of the best conditions in the south of the UK for that day (I checked the forecast for everywhere) and there was no one else on the cliff. It's brilliant from HVS to E4 and it was a Bank Holiday weekend.
As you've discovered, Curbar, Stanage North, etc all super quiet. I don't get it, but I do enjoy it.
In reply to TobyA:
Most climbers want loads of punter routes, close together, well protected and no surprises. Close to a car park helps, so that's Stanage popular. Curbar has a reputation for being nails, and Chatsworth is scruffy, mostly green, and a bit esoteric (some may say crap). I don't think it's that bad, but haven't climbed there in 30 years, even though I only live down the road.
Just give thanks that the fleshpots soak up the crowds. We had both the Very Far Skyline and Doxy Pool at the Roaches to ourselves for a long, late session on Friday, and Burbage West to ourselves today!
Most climbers want loads of punter routes, close together, well protected and no surprises. Close to a car park helps, so that's Stanage popular. Curbar has a reputation for being nails, and Chatsworth is scruffy, mostly green, and a bit esoteric (some may say crap). I don't think it's that bad, but haven't climbed there in 30 years, even though I only live down the road.
Just give thanks that the fleshpots soak up the crowds. We had both the Very Far Skyline and Doxy Pool at the Roaches to ourselves for a long, late session on Friday, and Burbage West to ourselves today!
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In reply to zimpara:
Are you sure you're on the right site?
> I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived...
Are you sure you're on the right site?
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In reply to zimpara:
With all due respect, what are you on about,That's what climbing is?
> I wouldn't go back to stanage popular, or baggy.
> I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived, same for stanage. Climb a Vdiff and then down climb a diff. Just WEIRD
With all due respect, what are you on about,That's what climbing is?
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In reply to TobyA:
I like getting on sight leads but I also really like repeating stuff as well, comfort climbing, no surprises.
I like getting on sight leads but I also really like repeating stuff as well, comfort climbing, no surprises.
Post edited at 20:04
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In reply to zimpara:
'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy...'
Mick
> I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived, same for stanage. Climb a Vdiff and then down climb a diff. Just WEIRD
'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy...'
Mick
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In reply to TobyA:
I'm afraid the likes of me in Sheffield are also responsible for the positive feedback loop of popularity of crags such as Stanage. In the early days I led a lot of the three-star vss. Walking around the crag,I was inspired by some of the extreme lines and determined to get up them one day. Now, when I go to have my third attempt at The Unprintable, I will probably see a three-star vs in the guidebook on which to warm up which I had not yet led so I will warm up on that. Then, I might think I need a bit more of a warm-up so I will go and do Eliminator because I know it so well, the lactic acid will start to course and then I will be ready to lead (our fail on) my chosen target. Then I will look up at the Dangler and it will go on my wishlist I expect. Then, the process will be repeated.
Chatsworth, although being in good condition the only time I went, was a different kind of crag. I did Puppet Crack, saw that the showpieces of the crag were way out of my league, was pleased with getting Pearls and went home thinking, "there's just Vibrio, or maybe the direct to go back for now". Now, I would like to do that big traverse too, but I'll need to know it's in good condition so I may avoid for a while.
I have to say, I don't think Curbar gets going until HVS really apart from that PMC whatnot.
I'm afraid the likes of me in Sheffield are also responsible for the positive feedback loop of popularity of crags such as Stanage. In the early days I led a lot of the three-star vss. Walking around the crag,I was inspired by some of the extreme lines and determined to get up them one day. Now, when I go to have my third attempt at The Unprintable, I will probably see a three-star vs in the guidebook on which to warm up which I had not yet led so I will warm up on that. Then, I might think I need a bit more of a warm-up so I will go and do Eliminator because I know it so well, the lactic acid will start to course and then I will be ready to lead (our fail on) my chosen target. Then I will look up at the Dangler and it will go on my wishlist I expect. Then, the process will be repeated.
Chatsworth, although being in good condition the only time I went, was a different kind of crag. I did Puppet Crack, saw that the showpieces of the crag were way out of my league, was pleased with getting Pearls and went home thinking, "there's just Vibrio, or maybe the direct to go back for now". Now, I would like to do that big traverse too, but I'll need to know it's in good condition so I may avoid for a while.
I have to say, I don't think Curbar gets going until HVS really apart from that PMC whatnot.
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In reply to Cake:
There are quite a few good, rather fierce, VSs.
> I have to say, I don't think Curbar gets going until HVS really apart from that PMC whatnot.
There are quite a few good, rather fierce, VSs.
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In reply to Cake:
skip the Unprintable and go straight for the Dangler. It's no harder, and just better.
Got to agree with you there. There's a few good routes below that but it truly shines from HVS up.
There's a really good HVS that sees very few repeats as its in a quiet corner of the crag. Think it's called 'The Line'. If it was at Stanage Popular it'd be a famous route.
> Now, when I go to have my third attempt at The Unprintable,
Then I will look up at the Dangler and it will go on my wishlist I expect. Then, the process will be repeated.skip the Unprintable and go straight for the Dangler. It's no harder, and just better.
> I have to say, I don't think Curbar gets going until HVS
Got to agree with you there. There's a few good routes below that but it truly shines from HVS up.
There's a really good HVS that sees very few repeats as its in a quiet corner of the crag. Think it's called 'The Line'. If it was at Stanage Popular it'd be a famous route.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Yeah, maybe I will do the dangler first, but I will still need to do the unprintable otherwise I will have given in to defeat
Yeah, maybe I will do the dangler first, but I will still need to do the unprintable otherwise I will have given in to defeat
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In reply to TobyA:
Can we not simply put this down to a lack of queues making routes unpopular. I believe us British in general love a good queue, and when there isn't one get a bit uncomfortable. I don't include myself in that btw. Anyone who has visited a theme park will know what I mean, possibly the greatest places in the western World to enjoy a good queue, where literally hours can be lost for the reward of a very short lived thrill. In climbing terms it also has the added sport of putting the team at the head of the queue under unnecessary pressure. I totally agree with you though, that it doesn't make a great deal of sense.
Can we not simply put this down to a lack of queues making routes unpopular. I believe us British in general love a good queue, and when there isn't one get a bit uncomfortable. I don't include myself in that btw. Anyone who has visited a theme park will know what I mean, possibly the greatest places in the western World to enjoy a good queue, where literally hours can be lost for the reward of a very short lived thrill. In climbing terms it also has the added sport of putting the team at the head of the queue under unnecessary pressure. I totally agree with you though, that it doesn't make a great deal of sense.
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In reply to Mark Collins:
Bit like the Grands Montets, then?
> (... ) possibly the greatest places in the western World to enjoy a good queue, where literally hours can be lost for the reward of a very short lived thrill.
Bit like the Grands Montets, then?
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In reply to Mark Collins:
I know you are joking and that is a stereotype of climbing at popular crags in the UK, but actually does anyone really queue? Having been climbing in popular places once a week for the nearly two years in the UK, the only time I think I've climbed behind other people was on a lovely day on Great End two Marches back. Obviously the main gullies are super popular there, so there were people who had got up earlier than us. But on rock, mainly in the Peak, its very rare I haven't been able to get on a route I want to do due to others. A couple of teams have been happy for me to solo a line that they are racking up for, but the last time I remember even that happening, the leader hadn't even taken her trainers off yet and was still fiddling with her racking up.
Maybe climbing just isn't as popular as I (we?) presume?
> I believe us British in general love a good queue, and when there isn't one get a bit uncomfortable.
I know you are joking and that is a stereotype of climbing at popular crags in the UK, but actually does anyone really queue? Having been climbing in popular places once a week for the nearly two years in the UK, the only time I think I've climbed behind other people was on a lovely day on Great End two Marches back. Obviously the main gullies are super popular there, so there were people who had got up earlier than us. But on rock, mainly in the Peak, its very rare I haven't been able to get on a route I want to do due to others. A couple of teams have been happy for me to solo a line that they are racking up for, but the last time I remember even that happening, the leader hadn't even taken her trainers off yet and was still fiddling with her racking up.
Maybe climbing just isn't as popular as I (we?) presume?
In reply to TobyA:
I've seen queues above 5 pairs deep on 3 star Stanage classics... I've climbed in the same areas with no queues.
I've seen queues above 5 pairs deep on 3 star Stanage classics... I've climbed in the same areas with no queues.
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In reply to Offwidth:
We tried the Stanage VS challenge last August on a weekend and were quite surprised we cruised through the popular end ones with no problems of other people on the routes. We started reasonably early so were first at the crag - it think we had done Heather Wall before 7 am but I guess we were still on the lefthand ones late morning, but fortunately never had 'traffic' problems - just weather problems later in the day!
We tried the Stanage VS challenge last August on a weekend and were quite surprised we cruised through the popular end ones with no problems of other people on the routes. We started reasonably early so were first at the crag - it think we had done Heather Wall before 7 am but I guess we were still on the lefthand ones late morning, but fortunately never had 'traffic' problems - just weather problems later in the day!
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In reply to TobyA:
I think stanage popular is a special case (hence the name), it is probably the most popular crag in the world in terms of bodies per sq/m of rock! I would hardly call curbar a 'quiet and neglected' crag on a national scale. take it out of the peak and it would be seen as an extremely popular crag. but as others have said it definitely gets better in the higher grades so inevitably gets less of the low grade masses found just a mile or so down the road at frogatt.
I think stanage popular is a special case (hence the name), it is probably the most popular crag in the world in terms of bodies per sq/m of rock! I would hardly call curbar a 'quiet and neglected' crag on a national scale. take it out of the peak and it would be seen as an extremely popular crag. but as others have said it definitely gets better in the higher grades so inevitably gets less of the low grade masses found just a mile or so down the road at frogatt.
In reply to TobyA:
Stanage Popular can indeed be lovely on early summer mornings if the midges are not out: almost no people and the routes climb much better when still shaded. The challenge is tough enough as it is, so best done around now... longer normally cooler days, no midges.
Stanage Popular can indeed be lovely on early summer mornings if the midges are not out: almost no people and the routes climb much better when still shaded. The challenge is tough enough as it is, so best done around now... longer normally cooler days, no midges.
In reply to TobyA:
I suppose the simple answer is me. I've had 5 crag days this year, 3 were Stanage popular end
It hasn't actually been that busy on any of the days.
Lots of good reasons already given, but I'd add
My main climbing aim this year has been to get my son leading. Stanage has been great for a number of reasons, not least me having loads of knowledge of what we can expect as well as great routes in the right grades
I think that describing routes on other gritstone crags as being as good on those on Stanage misses the point. It's not that the routes of Stanage are better its that there are just so many good routes close together. My experience is that Froggart can look empty but route you wanted to do is in occupied. Looking through the guide book suggests no other quality alternatives nearby
Stanage look heaving and some one is on the route you wanted. There always seems a good alternative nearby
I suppose the simple answer is me. I've had 5 crag days this year, 3 were Stanage popular end
It hasn't actually been that busy on any of the days.
Lots of good reasons already given, but I'd add
My main climbing aim this year has been to get my son leading. Stanage has been great for a number of reasons, not least me having loads of knowledge of what we can expect as well as great routes in the right grades
I think that describing routes on other gritstone crags as being as good on those on Stanage misses the point. It's not that the routes of Stanage are better its that there are just so many good routes close together. My experience is that Froggart can look empty but route you wanted to do is in occupied. Looking through the guide book suggests no other quality alternatives nearby
Stanage look heaving and some one is on the route you wanted. There always seems a good alternative nearby
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In reply to TobyA:
TBH I think we are just relatively small in number.
After 20+ years of climbing, whilst I've done most of the well known VSs on the Eastern Edges, despite a concerted (if rather intermittent) effort not to repeat routes there are still three star HVSs at Stanage Popular that I haven't done yet.
> But surely there are plenty of other people like me who have done most of the routes at their grade on these classic crags and need to move on to other cliffs to find more routes of that grade? Or are we actually quite small in number so that these routes don't get done that much?
TBH I think we are just relatively small in number.
After 20+ years of climbing, whilst I've done most of the well known VSs on the Eastern Edges, despite a concerted (if rather intermittent) effort not to repeat routes there are still three star HVSs at Stanage Popular that I haven't done yet.
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
But those all sound like perfectly sensible reasons to be there John! I took my younger son out a couple of weeks ago and we went to Burbage North. I knew that he wouldn't moan about the walk in, there were mods and diffs I could put a rope on for him, and the routes would be clean and dry. So totally understand that effect pulling you to certain crags.
But those all sound like perfectly sensible reasons to be there John! I took my younger son out a couple of weeks ago and we went to Burbage North. I knew that he wouldn't moan about the walk in, there were mods and diffs I could put a rope on for him, and the routes would be clean and dry. So totally understand that effect pulling you to certain crags.
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I noticed another stared VS at Curbar that I haven't done as well. We must have walked right over it on Friday. Hope you enjoyed the weekend weather. I spent the rest of inside marking books.
I noticed another stared VS at Curbar that I haven't done as well. We must have walked right over it on Friday. Hope you enjoyed the weekend weather. I spent the rest of inside marking books.
In reply to TobyA:
Given the choice of an empty crag or a busy crag, I would choose the empty one if possible. Some 1 star routes can be really good, sometimes you find a real gem.
Personally I cant think of anything worse than turning up at a remote atmospheric crag and having to que for a route that we went there to do.
Stanage wasnt as bad as I imagined to be honest. Was quite busy on a weekday but still managed to find some quiet areas due to the shedload of routes there.
Given the choice of an empty crag or a busy crag, I would choose the empty one if possible. Some 1 star routes can be really good, sometimes you find a real gem.
Personally I cant think of anything worse than turning up at a remote atmospheric crag and having to que for a route that we went there to do.
Stanage wasnt as bad as I imagined to be honest. Was quite busy on a weekday but still managed to find some quiet areas due to the shedload of routes there.
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In reply to TobyA:
I got sandbagged into trying Goliath (E4 6a) on Saturday. As anyone with a modicum of common sense could have predicted, it was a bloody stupid idea!
Also seconded Zeus (E2 5b) which was very worthwhile and packs a bit of a punch, but left the crag fairly early as I was working today.
> Hope you enjoyed the weekend weather. I spent the rest of inside marking books.
I got sandbagged into trying Goliath (E4 6a) on Saturday. As anyone with a modicum of common sense could have predicted, it was a bloody stupid idea!
Also seconded Zeus (E2 5b) which was very worthwhile and packs a bit of a punch, but left the crag fairly early as I was working today.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
If you are like me (a faff monkey) then the above things are exactly what you want. If I go to a distant crag, I don't want to try and get adventurous and climb a few 1 star or no star routes, wander around deciding what to do, wander away from the main areas etc, because if I do these things I inevitably faff, may end up on not very good routes, and will probably climb fewer routes than I would do if I just tick off the classic at the easiest area to approach.
At the end of the day popular stuff is usually (albeit not always) popular for a reason - usually the combination of easiest and least confusing access and good climbing!
> Most climbers want loads of punter routes, close together, well protected and no surprises.
If you are like me (a faff monkey) then the above things are exactly what you want. If I go to a distant crag, I don't want to try and get adventurous and climb a few 1 star or no star routes, wander around deciding what to do, wander away from the main areas etc, because if I do these things I inevitably faff, may end up on not very good routes, and will probably climb fewer routes than I would do if I just tick off the classic at the easiest area to approach.
At the end of the day popular stuff is usually (albeit not always) popular for a reason - usually the combination of easiest and least confusing access and good climbing!
In reply to TobyA:
I've climbed in the peak a lot over the last 10 years or so. I also love exploring new crags (i've been to Agden 3 times!), and rarely climb the same route twice.
But I never go to Curbar because it's all bloody hard and I've only been to Chatsworth twice. It's just not in good nick that often. And if it is, then other things I'm more interested in are too.
I've climbed in the peak a lot over the last 10 years or so. I also love exploring new crags (i've been to Agden 3 times!), and rarely climb the same route twice.
But I never go to Curbar because it's all bloody hard and I've only been to Chatsworth twice. It's just not in good nick that often. And if it is, then other things I'm more interested in are too.
In reply to TobyA:
People are sheep, it's as simple as that. Herd mentality, safety in numbers, don't stray from the path!
People are sheep, it's as simple as that. Herd mentality, safety in numbers, don't stray from the path!
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In reply to zimpara:
Try pulling the rope down when you get to the bottom of Great Zawn, Huntsman's Leap or Red Wall and see how contrived the route out feels.
> I find the concept of abbing down a cliff to climb back up contrived,
Try pulling the rope down when you get to the bottom of Great Zawn, Huntsman's Leap or Red Wall and see how contrived the route out feels.
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In reply to TobyA:
I've spent a lot of time this spring soloing sub-extremes on the eastern edges. Decided while you're local, grit climbs are like Pokemon, gotta catch em all.
Something that strikes me over and over again is how close to irrelevant stars are on the grit. A lot of one-star routes are just as interesting as the ones that get three. I think few grit routes are really worth three stars - grit's great for convenience and for being able to cover so much quality rock without the commitment and inconvenience of being more than a few metres away from a place where you could play bowls, but individual routes mostly* feel quite minor. Pocket monsters!
For occasional climbers or people just visiting, it's understandable that people gravitate to areas with lots of three-star routes at a given grade. Guidebooks are designed to encourage this. Is it a problem? Dunno.
*mostly
I've spent a lot of time this spring soloing sub-extremes on the eastern edges. Decided while you're local, grit climbs are like Pokemon, gotta catch em all.
Something that strikes me over and over again is how close to irrelevant stars are on the grit. A lot of one-star routes are just as interesting as the ones that get three. I think few grit routes are really worth three stars - grit's great for convenience and for being able to cover so much quality rock without the commitment and inconvenience of being more than a few metres away from a place where you could play bowls, but individual routes mostly* feel quite minor. Pocket monsters!
For occasional climbers or people just visiting, it's understandable that people gravitate to areas with lots of three-star routes at a given grade. Guidebooks are designed to encourage this. Is it a problem? Dunno.
*mostly
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In reply to victim of mathematics:
I've climbed every named sub extreme route listed in the BMC guide on Curbar, most several times.. its just not harder than elsewhere... easier on average than most Roaches, Moorland or YMC grit crags. As for Chatsworth how do you know conditions if you have only been twice? It is miserable on still midgy summer days and often a bit manky in winter but otherwise it is often in good nick, with the benefits of being quiet and shady,
Andy Moles is right... classic ticking is understandable for visitors, but for regulars, given the quality is pretty wide, with lots of good no star routes, its worth trying most routes.
I've climbed every named sub extreme route listed in the BMC guide on Curbar, most several times.. its just not harder than elsewhere... easier on average than most Roaches, Moorland or YMC grit crags. As for Chatsworth how do you know conditions if you have only been twice? It is miserable on still midgy summer days and often a bit manky in winter but otherwise it is often in good nick, with the benefits of being quiet and shady,
Andy Moles is right... classic ticking is understandable for visitors, but for regulars, given the quality is pretty wide, with lots of good no star routes, its worth trying most routes.
Post edited at 09:29
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In reply to Offwidth:
Ah, you've just edited your post, I was just about to say
'Respect! I haven't got close on Cool Moon or Slab and Crack yet!'
😂
Ah, you've just edited your post, I was just about to say
'Respect! I haven't got close on Cool Moon or Slab and Crack yet!'
😂
In reply to TobyA:
Who goes to popular crags? I do.
They tend to be popular for a reason: lots of friendly easier routes that are fun. Sometimes that's all I want from a crag and the other climbers add to the experience. Even on a busy day if you're willing to be flexible you never have to queue or climb choss. Then again some days a bit of bouldering in solitude with an angry grouse or just the sea for company is what I'm after. Same person, different days, different crags.
jk
Who goes to popular crags? I do.
They tend to be popular for a reason: lots of friendly easier routes that are fun. Sometimes that's all I want from a crag and the other climbers add to the experience. Even on a busy day if you're willing to be flexible you never have to queue or climb choss. Then again some days a bit of bouldering in solitude with an angry grouse or just the sea for company is what I'm after. Same person, different days, different crags.
jk
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In reply to TobyA:
The few times I've been to Stanage edge it's been covered with locals who insist on telling me how amazing it is to come out a few times a week and solo all the classics along Stanage.
Then they tell me loudly how I shouldn't bother roping up for my route because they've soloed it 300 times.
Then they spout loads of wank beta even though I've been trying to politely tell them to F off as I like onsighting things.
Then they complain about loads of tourists coming and climbing classics which makes their personal crag busy and polished.
Anyway rant over.
*edit - with regard to the original question when I go to a new area I often start off at one of the popular crags as often the access is easy, there's loads of information about the crag and there are famous routes I'd like to try.
The few times I've been to Stanage edge it's been covered with locals who insist on telling me how amazing it is to come out a few times a week and solo all the classics along Stanage.
Then they tell me loudly how I shouldn't bother roping up for my route because they've soloed it 300 times.
Then they spout loads of wank beta even though I've been trying to politely tell them to F off as I like onsighting things.
Then they complain about loads of tourists coming and climbing classics which makes their personal crag busy and polished.
Anyway rant over.
*edit - with regard to the original question when I go to a new area I often start off at one of the popular crags as often the access is easy, there's loads of information about the crag and there are famous routes I'd like to try.
Post edited at 13:02
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I'm not good enough but have watched ascents so I know those routes are not desperate as grit routes for their grades (except S&C went in as the top E7 on the graded list in the Froggatt guide).
On the editing front, I blame tablet use with fading eyesight: sub-extreme was originally in there, then somehow went, so I put it back again.
I'm not good enough but have watched ascents so I know those routes are not desperate as grit routes for their grades (except S&C went in as the top E7 on the graded list in the Froggatt guide).
On the editing front, I blame tablet use with fading eyesight: sub-extreme was originally in there, then somehow went, so I put it back again.
In reply to Mark Collins:
I went up Pen Y Fan on Sunday and there was a queue at the top probably with 100+ people waiting in a line slowly moving forward to have their photo taken on the summit how British! I think there was easily enough people on the hill that day that a human chain could have been made from road to summit. There were nearly 20 in our group for starters and looking around every other non popular hill in sight look deserted!
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13177827_10100542649854888_36...
> I believe us British in general love a good queue, and when there isn't one get a bit uncomfortable.
I went up Pen Y Fan on Sunday and there was a queue at the top probably with 100+ people waiting in a line slowly moving forward to have their photo taken on the summit how British! I think there was easily enough people on the hill that day that a human chain could have been made from road to summit. There were nearly 20 in our group for starters and looking around every other non popular hill in sight look deserted!
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13177827_10100542649854888_36...
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In reply to TobyA:
I think you might be overestimating the number of local/Sheffield climbers that are going out regularly enough to produce traffic on the some of these no star and 1 star routes and even when they do are unlikely to regularly climb these routes over and over again. There are a lot of climbers in the local area but the number of those that are well travelled is relatively small compared to the total number. As an example I'm always particularly surprised by the number of Sheffield climbers who have never heard of the Chew Valley let alone climbed there. One reason for this I think is lack of imagination and laziness such as repetitively going to very local crags (and some even doing the same routes each year) instead of occasionally driving <60mins and being able to explore new crags anywhere in The Peak particularly at weekends. Another reason I think that many believe everyone in Sheffield is going out climbing every evening/weekend (there are lots of other things to life for many people partners/family/children/other fiends/hobbies etc) and has done every classic route up to a given grade when many have loads of classic routes still to do at the Popular End at Stanage let alone the Moscar end. Therefore it is not surprising that some have a lack of imagination to try new crags or climb 1* or below climbs. Whilst crags like Chatsworth might be smaller but still good for a few visits if you don't actually climb week in week out as Chris has pointed out there are hundreds of classics at Stanage to go at which will take many climbers years to do so therefore they don't go to for example Chatsworth and even when they do its only the odd visit.
I think you might be overestimating the number of local/Sheffield climbers that are going out regularly enough to produce traffic on the some of these no star and 1 star routes and even when they do are unlikely to regularly climb these routes over and over again. There are a lot of climbers in the local area but the number of those that are well travelled is relatively small compared to the total number. As an example I'm always particularly surprised by the number of Sheffield climbers who have never heard of the Chew Valley let alone climbed there. One reason for this I think is lack of imagination and laziness such as repetitively going to very local crags (and some even doing the same routes each year) instead of occasionally driving <60mins and being able to explore new crags anywhere in The Peak particularly at weekends. Another reason I think that many believe everyone in Sheffield is going out climbing every evening/weekend (there are lots of other things to life for many people partners/family/children/other fiends/hobbies etc) and has done every classic route up to a given grade when many have loads of classic routes still to do at the Popular End at Stanage let alone the Moscar end. Therefore it is not surprising that some have a lack of imagination to try new crags or climb 1* or below climbs. Whilst crags like Chatsworth might be smaller but still good for a few visits if you don't actually climb week in week out as Chris has pointed out there are hundreds of classics at Stanage to go at which will take many climbers years to do so therefore they don't go to for example Chatsworth and even when they do its only the odd visit.
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In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I'm from Nottingham and must have done several hundred routes and loads of bouldering in the Chew, nearly all on day trips. The biggest routes on grit are to be found there. New places offer me different character and new outlooks and inspiration. It also helps build new friendships with interesting climbers (where your mates might walk right past you and ignore a bellow of hello on Stanage
I'm from Nottingham and must have done several hundred routes and loads of bouldering in the Chew, nearly all on day trips. The biggest routes on grit are to be found there. New places offer me different character and new outlooks and inspiration. It also helps build new friendships with interesting climbers (where your mates might walk right past you and ignore a bellow of hello on Stanage
In reply to Offwidth:
I think 6 of the top 10 hardest E1s in the Froggatt to Black Rocks guide are at Curbar (and L'Horla should be up there too - harder than Strapiombo). I think that makes it a pretty hard crag at E1.
> I've climbed every named sub extreme route listed in the BMC guide on Curbar, most several times.. its just not harder than elsewhere... easier on average than most Roaches, Moorland or YMC grit crags.
I think 6 of the top 10 hardest E1s in the Froggatt to Black Rocks guide are at Curbar (and L'Horla should be up there too - harder than Strapiombo). I think that makes it a pretty hard crag at E1.
In reply to Cake:
Stick those 10 against the hardest 10 in the two volumes of the YMC guide or The Roaches or Moorland. Yes, Curbar is a tad harder than other big crags on the Eastern edges at the top of E1 but is that about grading or a statisticsl blip (the crags dont know routes are not supposed to cluster at one end of a particular grade). I also think L'Horla is easier than Strapiombo in modern terms (ie safish big pulls cf very safe jams) even if a while back but post cams I would have said the opposite.
Stick those 10 against the hardest 10 in the two volumes of the YMC guide or The Roaches or Moorland. Yes, Curbar is a tad harder than other big crags on the Eastern edges at the top of E1 but is that about grading or a statisticsl blip (the crags dont know routes are not supposed to cluster at one end of a particular grade). I also think L'Horla is easier than Strapiombo in modern terms (ie safish big pulls cf very safe jams) even if a while back but post cams I would have said the opposite.
Post edited at 16:49
In reply to TobyA:
Was soloing whilst my mate was gearing up last night. Latter it occurred to me as i was telling some friends in the pub who had "done everything" at thier grade at curbar (but not this route) so were walking across to froggatt, about this fantastic route Heather Wall I'd done that evening was the one from this thread! Yes what a gem, clean with lovely moves particularly the layback at the top which felt like the psychological crux for me.
Was soloing whilst my mate was gearing up last night. Latter it occurred to me as i was telling some friends in the pub who had "done everything" at thier grade at curbar (but not this route) so were walking across to froggatt, about this fantastic route Heather Wall I'd done that evening was the one from this thread! Yes what a gem, clean with lovely moves particularly the layback at the top which felt like the psychological crux for me.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
People often tell me they have done everything at their grade not realising the not inconsiderable additions in recent guides from mod; including many starred newly described lower grade lines. Plus it continues... almost as soon as Froggatt was published Moff and I cleaned and climbed this gem (previously buried in the trees, which were removed):
Oi Grimer! (E1 5b)
People often tell me they have done everything at their grade not realising the not inconsiderable additions in recent guides from mod; including many starred newly described lower grade lines. Plus it continues... almost as soon as Froggatt was published Moff and I cleaned and climbed this gem (previously buried in the trees, which were removed):
Oi Grimer! (E1 5b)
Post edited at 14:49
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I would think rather scary solo! But then I'm crap. It's in my guide as VS 4c so I do remember thinking "this feel hard" at a couple of points.
I would think rather scary solo! But then I'm crap. It's in my guide as VS 4c so I do remember thinking "this feel hard" at a couple of points.
In reply to Offwidth:
Hoping to get to cratcliffe next week so if i tick off all the classics i want to do I'll look out for that one. Looks like you missed out being credited for Whose Line Is It Anyway? (HVS 5b) pitch one as part of that route in the rockfax guide :-o Pitch 1 looks good from the photo.
Hoping to get to cratcliffe next week so if i tick off all the classics i want to do I'll look out for that one. Looks like you missed out being credited for Whose Line Is It Anyway? (HVS 5b) pitch one as part of that route in the rockfax guide :-o Pitch 1 looks good from the photo.
Post edited at 17:55
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
It doesn't matter... the finish pitch is the crux and just as good but may need a brush.
It doesn't matter... the finish pitch is the crux and just as good but may need a brush.
In reply to TobyA:
Great question and something I've wondered about. It seems true with Europe too, the so called honeypot destinations. Kalymnos and El Chorro spring to mind.
A few weeks ago on a dry weekend we drove past Horseshoe and it was absolutely rammed with vehicles. The place must have been packed. We went to Devonshire Buttress, not so far away, similar grades and quality, and we were the only people at the crag.
Personally I hate crowds of people at a crag so it's mystifying to me. I don't know the answer but maybe...
1. Some people just don't care about crowds of people.
2. A lot of people are quite sheep like in there thinking and just follow others. Perhaps that gives a feeling of safety: ie. there won't be any nasty surprises on the well trodden routes.
3. A lack of imagination and forethought before going out so they just end up at the popular, well known places.
> why do some routes get little attention when they are geographically very close to some other routes of the same grade that must be amongst the most climbed in the country?
Great question and something I've wondered about. It seems true with Europe too, the so called honeypot destinations. Kalymnos and El Chorro spring to mind.
A few weeks ago on a dry weekend we drove past Horseshoe and it was absolutely rammed with vehicles. The place must have been packed. We went to Devonshire Buttress, not so far away, similar grades and quality, and we were the only people at the crag.
Personally I hate crowds of people at a crag so it's mystifying to me. I don't know the answer but maybe...
1. Some people just don't care about crowds of people.
2. A lot of people are quite sheep like in there thinking and just follow others. Perhaps that gives a feeling of safety: ie. there won't be any nasty surprises on the well trodden routes.
3. A lack of imagination and forethought before going out so they just end up at the popular, well known places.
In reply to stp:
Is that because Horseshoe is in the Peak Limestone and the other one not? Looking at the topo too there isn't much for real punters (like me) at DB!
> A few weeks ago on a dry weekend we drove past Horseshoe and it was absolutely rammed with vehicles. The place must have been packed. We went to Devonshire Buttress, not so far away, similar grades and quality, and we were the only people at the crag.
Is that because Horseshoe is in the Peak Limestone and the other one not? Looking at the topo too there isn't much for real punters (like me) at DB!
In reply to TobyA:
Both are in the new guide.
There's certainly more at Horseshoe but it appeared as if no one had even climbed on DB this year - complete lack of chalk. The routes are pretty short but the rock is great quality - natural limestone, clean and solid and not polished. Whilst I'd expect more people to go the the crag with more routes I didn't expect the difference to be so great: 20 or more cars vs zero at DB.
Both are in the new guide.
There's certainly more at Horseshoe but it appeared as if no one had even climbed on DB this year - complete lack of chalk. The routes are pretty short but the rock is great quality - natural limestone, clean and solid and not polished. Whilst I'd expect more people to go the the crag with more routes I didn't expect the difference to be so great: 20 or more cars vs zero at DB.
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