UKC

I've just come across this. Compelling reading. Probably well known to those in the sport, but I haven't seen it discussed on here.
It made hairs stand on the back of my neck.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36097300

In reply to Greenbanks:

Great article, thanks for posting.

Those divers had some serious grit.

In reply to Greenbanks:
I can thoroughly recommend "The Darkness Beckons" by Martin Farr, a thoroughly good read and absolutely terrifying.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Very serious dives. Only really possible due to the advent of suit heating systems. Suit rips and floods present a very likely chance of hypothermia being fatal before decompression is complete. At these depths, each minute of swimming in requires one minute of swimming out + 10 additional minutes of decompression

The body recovery dives had a similar or greater risk than the original dive. A very difficult decision for those close to the deceased.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I'd just come across this report too. Completely terrifying. I've done a bit of caving and a bit of diving, can't say I'm in any hurry to combine them.

In reply to Greenbanks:

This is a cracking video on the challenges and complexity of cave diving with the amazing Rick Stanton.

youtube.com/watch?v=qNX5eo2Ja1g&

In reply to Toccata:


One of our club members was a firefighter on the same watch as Rick and arranged for him to give a lecture; we also invited along the local sub aqua club.

The stuff he does is totally mindblowing and out there, we all sat there open mouthed and sweaty palmed.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Ditto. I was in a cave once and I could see some guidelines disappearing into open water. It genuinely gave me the shivers. As did coming across a diver a bit later and seeing him do what looked like psyching himself up for the dive.

In reply to Greenbanks:
If someone like Rick Stanton considered it too risky then this was a commendable effort by those involved.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Sid Perou put some stuff on YouTube last year which is great. Well worth a watch. Tells the story of cave diving right from the start.
The Yorkshire/Lancashire link up film is particularly good.

Enjoy!

In reply to Greenbanks:

this is a fairly unnerving and longer read.

http://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead

In reply to KevinD:

I remember reading an article about cave diving when i was about 10 or 11 (in readers digest of all places!)

Even at the height of that feeling of invincibility you have at that age it seemed dangerous and scary beyond belief.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

'Even at the height of that feeling of invincibility, - yes, a great way of summarising it.

I mostly always get my head around adventure stuff, eventually (whether Red Bull stratosphere jumping, par ascending 8000ers, round the world sailing stuff, Paris-Dakar etc etc). But I just can't wrap my head round cave-diving. It seems utterly mad, awful to the nth degree.

Stories like this make me feel sick to the core. But, they always draw you in. Thanks to others upthread for pointing me to other stuff to give me nightmares.

In reply to Greenbanks:

It was obviously a well known case in Finland - national news when the accident happened and then when they went back - I didn't know though that the one guy got a medal from the President! Sort of odd in some ways...

Anyway, if you're in the mood for cave diving catastrophe listen to act 3 of this episode of This American Life - a superb bit of journalism.

In reply to Toccata:


Just watched that. Excellent stuff , proper adventure . somehow makes the daily mash view of rock climbing / climbers ring a little truer .
Thanks .
Edit
Thanks to OP to. Gripping read .

In reply to TobyA:

Missing a link there?

Good article upthread from Outside. Thanks.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Cave diving is a lot more thoughtful sport than you would imagine. Particularly longer range, clear water cave diving with teamwork. It's no place for a macho daredevil type.

It's more like aviation. Careful preparation pre-dive. Lots of progressive training. Standard, drilled responses to immediate problems. Thinking about solutions with the resources you have. You have a lot more time to fix a problem or a mistake before you get hurt than you would have with other sports (Motorsport, bold climbing, skiing etc.)

In reply to Bobling:

Sorry! http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/515/good-guys I think its the same case as the Outside article is on.

In reply to sbc23:
Bonnington wrote a book decades ago about other types of adventurers and features some early cave divers in that. It was even more dangerous than with simpler gear, but he compared it to astronauts he had interviewed - in that both were completely reliant on their technical equipment in a way a climb for instance isn't.
I've had some climbing mates who have also done tech diving and cave diving, and it does seem exactly like you say - super organised and systematised with what you breath, when etc etc. and the interminable decompression!

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks - just read that. Gripping.

In reply to TobyA:

The 'history of cave diving' parts 1-4 on YouTube is genuinely terrifying. Trial and error in a completely unforgiving environment. Totally dependant on untested gear and techniques.

Nowadays, particularly in clear water caves with modern gear and standardised training it's completely different. Almost touristy. Pretty too :

vimeo.com/152633682

There is, of course, another level of cutting edge exploration going on by the likes of Rick Stanton etc.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Rob Parker who I believe set up the Bristol climbing wall (the church one) died cave diving. He was at the forefront of the sport. Brave man, horrible death.

In reply to TobyA:

Yeah, quest for adventure. A bit 'ripping yarns' in a way I guess, but I lapped it up as a kid. Can still remember pretty much every chapter well but 'Dead Man's Handshake' / the link-up referred to above was more compelling than anything else.

In reply to Toccata:

that's a brilliant film the for sharing. Did they get further?

In reply to alasdair19:


I don't know. Spent some time trying to find out and would love to know.

In reply to Toccata:

Ask on UKCaving

In reply to Greenbanks:

Excellent article. This was quite thought provoking:

It's well known that some of the world's most challenging peaks are dotted with the remains of mountaineers whose bodies could not be safely retrieved. But Paakkarinen says that leaving bodies in the Norwegian cave would have been like leaving victims of a car crash by the side of the road.

I'm not into high altitude mountaineering, but the contrast of views towards the deceased is interesting. Especially as retrieving a body from a mountain is probably easier than retrieving a body from a cave.

In reply to sbc23:



That's an interesting post; thanks.

I read 'The Darkness Beckons' once, and was very impressed by the mind control which must be necessary in the activity. But your comparison with aviation seems apt: training, training, training - so you know exactly what to do when things go wrong.

The 'Bushman's Hole' trip sounds more like extremely deep diving, rather than 'conventional' (?) cave diving in small passages. Incredible (to me, anyway) to think that humans can dive so deep. And I think I've read that it's cave divers themselves who have developed and pushed both the technology and the techniques for doing so.

In reply to TobyA:

I think cave divers would resent the Astronaut comparison - Cave divers have always been far more considered and careful than astronauts - it's a sobering fact that the breathing set on an Apollo era Space suit had no redundancy - if one component failed, the system failed altogether. (Cave divers have historically used two sets, and worked on the rule of thirds - to minimise the hazards presented by equipment failure).

I've seen divers disappearing into the most god-awful muddy slots in the ground - tight, with hardly any visibility - gruesome.

In reply to sbc23:

Yes, and a lot longer to think about it if you can't fix it too. I'm not especially keen on the idea of a big fall and a hard landing but the thought of panicking and drowning trapped somewhere dark and inaccessible is horrifying on a different level.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


The other important aspect of dive safety is progression. Familiarity with the cave and progressing with small manageable steps is an important method to make the whole thing safer. It makes it a lot more difficult to get lost. The guideline and its associated navigational markers are vital to all cave diving, but after numerous dives in the same system you build a very solid backup if that you know the intricacies and detail of the cave.

A big hazard in small (UK style) cave is the 'line trap'. This is where you follow a line in, and in doing so move the line into a smaller part of the passage. If you are following the line out in poor visibility you may not be able to fit through. Scary biscuits. Having really detailed knowledge of the cave, this is easy to fix. Just move the line back and swim through the bigger bit.

Personally, I'm fat and no fan of small cave. I much prefer stuff in the van to church-sized range. I'm part of a smal team surveying and mapping the St Georges system in the Dordogne. We've been working on it for around 5 years, improving the simplistic survey that was previously available. Our early dives, to around 900m before it starts to get deep felt quite exposed. It's a long way to swim out with a problem - 60mins. Since then, by surveying in detail and becoming very familiar with it, we've found 4 breathable air-spaces in that distance. Now, we are never more than 200m / 15mins from an airspace. That adds a lot of margin and made further exploration into the deeper bits more practical.

Latest, published survey is here : https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcg0yqmb7s8d64t/St_Georges_1-1000_v1.2.pdf?dl=0

In reply to sbc23:

Nice survey

(Sorry to see that you have to climb out and get your feet dry in the Salle de Lavaur!)

In reply to sbc23:

it's similar to how I explain tricky mountaineering do a slightly more difficult mountain / route each time and it can amaze you what you can end up doing. what's the entry point cost? are . the more advanced technology breathers now standard?

In reply to alasdair19:
Cost varies massively and depends on what you include.

Experienced UK cavers, learning to dive shallow uk sumps with a couple of small cylinders could have some really low costs. Basic gear (500-1000) and training with a mentor. Probably similar to learning to trad climb with a decent rack.

Folks with a scuba background, looking to dive clear-water karst caves in France / Florida / Mexico normally take a 'technical diving' route. Beyond initial training and say 100dives experience, it's a case of upgrading gear to drysuits, twin cylinders and associated streamlined quality gear (3-5k maybe). Then there are a series of courses to get you to a stage where you can plan larger dives with navigation - a 'full' cave diver. Various agencies with different steps. Most are Cavern-apprentice/intro-full or GUE Cave 1-Cave 2. This is expensive. 2-4k in course fees, plus associated holiday expenses.

Rebreathers are another step up again, although some people start cave siving having already trained on rebreathers. 4-10k for a modern eCCR unit and training. There are also people building custom rebreathers for specific purposes, or modifying existing units to increase range and redundancy.

For our project the lead divers are using RB80 semi-closed rebreathers. These are mechanical, allowing the gas to be breathed 5-8 times by just scrubbing out the co2. No oxygen injection. They are robust and will run for 12 hours. They are, however, massive and heavy. Not suitable for walking about in a cave. The guys swap into standard gear for shallow stuff and climbing beyond the deep sump.

Once you've got into the sport, bought the gear and training, the costs aren't too bad. It took me about 10years. Now, I can do 10days in Florida for about 1500, inc flights, car, accommodation, food & gas. Similar to skiing I'd imagine.

In reply to sbc23:

Thanks - gives an outsider like me a good insight. I'd often wondered about the training side of things - and also the relationship between 'ordinary' caving (which personally is scary enough) and cave diving. Are there separate communities - with only occasional instances of top class people crossing over? I'm thinking like as happens to an extent with many climbers - who tend to excel in one aspect of the sport (obviously with notable exceptions)
Thanks also for the stuff about your project - stupid really, all those trips down the Dordogne and Tarn and not a thought that there's as much adventure underneath as there is on top. Must be quite a few other places like that I'd imagine that we don't know much about
Cheers

In reply to Greenbanks:

In the UK, it has usually been cavers that take up diving, rather than divers that take up caving - due to the nature of most underground diving sites. The aforementioned Rick Stanton - one of the leading UK cave divers - has apparently not got any open water diving qualifications, being largely self taught.

In reply to sbc23:


Really interesting, thanks. Out of interest, is there a flow in the cave? I'd assume it's an underground river so must have some flow. Do you then have to be really careful to pick the right weather and even season to explore it?

Thinking about when I drove past this cave, and the bridge in the picture was underwater and the cave was a boiling eruption of water. It was early Spring and the snow in the hills was melting fast.

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/71117155.jpg

Compared to the pictures here where people have dived it.

http://utahcaves.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/ricks-spring-cave.html

I'm fascinated by it, would love to give it a go. I don't think I have enough time to commit to the years of practice first though!

In reply to NottsRich:

Yes, it's seasonal.

The system is large and has a large water catchment. It actually 'starts' (ie main upstream entrance) at the show cave at Padirac. The resurgence at St Georges is some 15km downstream. There is a secondary resurgence at Finou, directly below the village in Montavent. The French explored downstream from Padirac and upstream from Finou to make a connection (1990's I think). That's about 15 shallow sumps. In 2003, Rick Stanton made the connection from St Georges into the Padirac-Finou line. Solo, 5km, diving and dry caving, 5 sumps, one of which is 75m deep and about 1200m long. Decompression both ways.

Recently, a French team of 2 have made the traverse through Padirac-St Georges over a couple of days, with a big team of support divers/cavers from each end.

In the winter, there is a lot of water passing through the system and it is not possible to dive. There doesn't seem to be much filtration and the water ingress collects a lot of silt out of surface layers and the vis is poor. Best vis (up to 10-12m) is in late summer when rainfall is low and the cave has had chance to clear. In these conditions, the flow is imperceptible in the cave (maybe 1-2cm/s in a 5x5m passage).

In reply to Greenbanks:

"Top class people crossing over"?! Ha: the cave diving world has more than it's fair share of muppets so don't assume that to be a cave diver you need to be a decent caver! To be a competent (UK-style) cave diver, though, you do need to be a capable caver as the majority of sites involve caving to the sumps and/or what is essentially caving underwater so you'd benefit from a solid caving background. As has been already been mentioned there are sites in other parts of the world that are big, clear, and easily accessible so these tend to be the realm of the diver-turned-cavediver as traditionally us Brits tend to bounce off the walls, floor and ceiling before we freeze to death in our mouldy old wetsuits. The best of us (Rick & a tiny handful of others) happen to be at home in both the squalid shit & the big, deep & long sites. And any reputation that cave divers have for being at the cutting edge has always been due to the exploits of the tiny minority active at the time.

The training side is fairly simplistic in the UK: train yourself & then get accepted into the gang or begin a lengthy & erratic apprenticeship that is dictated by weather and motivation. Not very glam but if you stick it out then you probably deserve your shiny T-shirt. Used to be extremely cliquey and hard to get accepted but that's changed drastically over the last decade or so. There are professional tec-style diving agencies that run cave diving courses but they're generally aimed at the big resurgence diving as opposed to the acquired taste of British stuff. Besides which, nobody would pay top dollar to suffer in our underground toilets!! The organisation within the UK is the Cave Diving Group for anyone who is bored enough to search

In reply to joelc:

Indeed. I've done a few hundred cave dives in various foreign caves. Some as a tourist, some as support or surveying.

My uk caving experience consists of a trip into White Scar with the kids and an ice cream afterwards.

Anyone interested in watching the movie?
We are currently trying to arrange a screening in Lincoln.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Hi Greenbanks,

I've done lots of dodgey stuff in my 50+ years (read dangerous) and had some near misses (read nearly died)...but about 25 years ago Phil (best man at my wedding) took me cave diving in South Wales. Even after training and support from Phil and having been caving myself for 20+ years, I absolutely shat myself. Without a doubt the most mental, scary thing I have ever done....bar none. I do sometimes relive the sheer terror of it, even now......

I knew Geoof Yeadon and Oli Statham back in the day in Yorkshire......special people.....

Barbeg

In reply to Mikkel:



Definitely. I'm sure Lincoln caving club would turn up (all seven of us)

In reply to Greenbanks:
A good friend of mine ticks the boxes - cave diver, produced a study for the HSE on re-breather fatalities some time ago, and counts a long-serving SAS officer as his regular dive buddy. An otherwise pleasant chap, and almost autistic in technical preparation (down to using different brands of batteries in backup torches to ensure redundancy) - but I do question his mentality to engage in the sport. It strikes me as insanity!

He recounted a while back the story of a couple of divers going in to a cave somewhere who, on encountering technical issues with their scooters, elected to continue the dive. The obvious elementary error was overlooking the impact exertion would have on their O2 consumption. Subsequent examination of the site indicated the two eventually turned around, then ended up buddy-breathing. Scratch marks and broken discarded goggles pointed towards an eventual tussle between both divers as they fought for the few bars of oxygen that remained in the tank; the one who won the fight managing to swim on a few dozen more feet before also succumbing.

The ingredients for a dark, claustrophobic, lonely, and grim demise are far too present to make the sport attractive to me.

In reply to trennie23:

cool, will keep you posted.