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What sort of fall would you afford yourself on 5mm mammut accessory cord used as a thread/quickdraw? I'm guessing in the not so distant past you would have had the smaller nuts on 5mm cord so using it as a quickdraw isn't madness?
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In reply to zimpara:
http://www.needlesports.com/2024/products/mammut-5mm-static-cord-x-1-metre....
5.5kN so when formed into a loop:
70% x 2 x 5.5 = 7.7kN ... ish
Weaker than most of your nuts but strong enough to hold falls at the less harsh end of the spectrum. As a thread the edge/texture of the placement probably has more bearing than the cord diameter.
At 5.5mm you can get Spectra cord IIRC which is much stronger. 8mm tape slings are barely any bulkier so I'm not seeing much benefit in carrying thin cord.
jk
http://www.needlesports.com/2024/products/mammut-5mm-static-cord-x-1-metre....
5.5kN so when formed into a loop:
70% x 2 x 5.5 = 7.7kN ... ish
Weaker than most of your nuts but strong enough to hold falls at the less harsh end of the spectrum. As a thread the edge/texture of the placement probably has more bearing than the cord diameter.
At 5.5mm you can get Spectra cord IIRC which is much stronger. 8mm tape slings are barely any bulkier so I'm not seeing much benefit in carrying thin cord.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
Thanks for that jk. I've just found cord to be much easier to thread through spiky threads where slings would usually get their fibres hooked and caught up.
Main reason i ask is because if im going to carry prussiks, id like to use them as threads aswell. Save on slings and hopefully thread faster getting less pumped.
Thanks for that jk. I've just found cord to be much easier to thread through spiky threads where slings would usually get their fibres hooked and caught up.
Main reason i ask is because if im going to carry prussiks, id like to use them as threads aswell. Save on slings and hopefully thread faster getting less pumped.
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In reply to zimpara:
I don't bother carrying Prusiks unless I'm actually planning to ab into somewhere and happen to have them with me in the car. I generally just use one of my sling-draws which are full strength and genuinely multi-function. Someone usually chimes in to say they're too slick, won't work, will melt etc but to date that's not been my experience.
jk
I don't bother carrying Prusiks unless I'm actually planning to ab into somewhere and happen to have them with me in the car. I generally just use one of my sling-draws which are full strength and genuinely multi-function. Someone usually chimes in to say they're too slick, won't work, will melt etc but to date that's not been my experience.
jk
In reply to zimpara:
I, personally, wouldn't use it to make a quickdraw.* As said above, thin tape is much better for that.
You're right; in the dim and distant past 'nuts' were sold loose and you threaded them yourself with rope. Personally I only really felt happy with 7mm and up but you use what you've got
If you are talking about carrying a 'cord' sling (what used to be called a 'rope' sling') then the odd one or two might not hurt if you are expecting to need a few small threads.
*'Quickdraw' - short loop of tape (often 'closed' in the middle) with two krabs: used as a flexible link when clipping into protection/bolts?
I, personally, wouldn't use it to make a quickdraw.* As said above, thin tape is much better for that.
You're right; in the dim and distant past 'nuts' were sold loose and you threaded them yourself with rope. Personally I only really felt happy with 7mm and up but you use what you've got
If you are talking about carrying a 'cord' sling (what used to be called a 'rope' sling') then the odd one or two might not hurt if you are expecting to need a few small threads.
*'Quickdraw' - short loop of tape (often 'closed' in the middle) with two krabs: used as a flexible link when clipping into protection/bolts?
In reply to zimpara:
If you can, buy and use either the 5mm pure dyneema (white) or 5.5mm dyneema core/nylon sheath stuff (purple?) that Beal etc do. Crazy strong (also crazy static). Needs to be tied with at least a triple fishermans.
edit: just saw your comment about prusiks.
How much do prusiks really weigh? And if you use them for a thread somewhere, then you can't use them any more if you need them. Even if you don't need them for self-rescue, if you have used your prusiks for threads then you wouldn't have them to protect an abseil back down if that was necessary.
Pure dyneema cord would probably also be the worst possible cord to make prusiks out of (too slippery).
If you can, buy and use either the 5mm pure dyneema (white) or 5.5mm dyneema core/nylon sheath stuff (purple?) that Beal etc do. Crazy strong (also crazy static). Needs to be tied with at least a triple fishermans.
edit: just saw your comment about prusiks.
How much do prusiks really weigh? And if you use them for a thread somewhere, then you can't use them any more if you need them. Even if you don't need them for self-rescue, if you have used your prusiks for threads then you wouldn't have them to protect an abseil back down if that was necessary.
Pure dyneema cord would probably also be the worst possible cord to make prusiks out of (too slippery).
Post edited at 14:48
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4
In reply to zimpara:
not sure about 5mm only one size but they do a 30cm one intended as a prussik .
not sure about 5mm only one size but they do a 30cm one intended as a prussik .
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In reply to zimpara:
No, but you can get a 5mm one that weighs practically nothing, is nicely stiff for threading and has basically unlimited strength for climbing purposes. Unlike your 5mm prusik loop made of weak, floppy, easily cut nylon, which is ideally suited as a prusik loop and really not much cop as threading material.
You can afford the extra twenty grammes. Or if you really think you can't, your nice soft dyneema slings make pretty good prusiks. If you haven't already used them for something else.
> I have, but can you get one in a 5mm that can double as a prussik?
No, but you can get a 5mm one that weighs practically nothing, is nicely stiff for threading and has basically unlimited strength for climbing purposes. Unlike your 5mm prusik loop made of weak, floppy, easily cut nylon, which is ideally suited as a prusik loop and really not much cop as threading material.
You can afford the extra twenty grammes. Or if you really think you can't, your nice soft dyneema slings make pretty good prusiks. If you haven't already used them for something else.
In reply to lithos:
Yup, it's 5mm, will withstand 22kn, and is specifically designed to double as a prussik:
http://www.needlesports.com/3821/products/edelrid-aramid-cord-extender-prus...
Haven't got this one but I've got one of the longer aramid slings (as mentioned in the gear freaks thread) and like it a lot.
Yup, it's 5mm, will withstand 22kn, and is specifically designed to double as a prussik:
http://www.needlesports.com/3821/products/edelrid-aramid-cord-extender-prus...
Haven't got this one but I've got one of the longer aramid slings (as mentioned in the gear freaks thread) and like it a lot.
In reply to jkarran:
Another potential option if you've used 5mm cord to attach your chalkbag to yourself (which I do) : I'm all but certain I could use Blake's hitch to make a perfectly good replacement for a French prusik. I've not yet tested it in the field, but it grips as well (if not better) as a French prusik at home.
Edit: the reason I'd go for Blake's hitch and not just tying a prusik loop and then using a French prusik is that there are hard-to-untie knots in the cord as it is, and I wouldn't want to try and untie knots under duress.
> I don't bother carrying Prusiks unless I'm actually planning to ab into somewhere and happen to have them with me in the car. I generally just use one of my sling-draws which are full strength and genuinely multi-function. Someone usually chimes in to say they're too slick, won't work, will melt etc but to date that's not been my experience.
> jk
Another potential option if you've used 5mm cord to attach your chalkbag to yourself (which I do) : I'm all but certain I could use Blake's hitch to make a perfectly good replacement for a French prusik. I've not yet tested it in the field, but it grips as well (if not better) as a French prusik at home.
Edit: the reason I'd go for Blake's hitch and not just tying a prusik loop and then using a French prusik is that there are hard-to-untie knots in the cord as it is, and I wouldn't want to try and untie knots under duress.
Post edited at 19:56
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In reply to slab_happy:
Interesting. The standard length ones I have would be far too stiff to make effective prusiks.
I wonder what advantages a £9 aramid sling has over a £1 bit of nylon cord for this particular purpose? Other than presumably a much better profit margin for Edelrid.
Interesting. The standard length ones I have would be far too stiff to make effective prusiks.
I wonder what advantages a £9 aramid sling has over a £1 bit of nylon cord for this particular purpose? Other than presumably a much better profit margin for Edelrid.
In reply to AlanLittle:
I suspect the advantage is exactly what zimpara's asking about (edit: okay, not necessarily what he was asking about, but what we seem to have ended up talking about *g*): having something that can double as a full-strength sling.
Personally, I have one bog-standard cord prusik loop stashed on a screwgate and one as my chalkbag cord. But if you're going to be able to make use of the 30cm sling, seems like it could be a decent option.
And if you only very rarely need to use a prusik loop, I think it's sometimes easy for it to end up at the bottom of your bag (unless you're paranoid/conscientous about always carrying it).
Which is not where you want it to be when you suddenly find you need to ab to retrieve gear -- or worse, have an emergency of some kind requiring abseiling/prusiking/using prusiks to escape the system.
Actually, I did a bit of experimenting the other day after a self-rescue workshop and (to my surprise) found that my standard one did seem to work, at least as a klemheist for prusiking up -- I don't know if it'd also work as an autobloc. And it may just have been on that particular fuzzy rope, etc.. But I'd be curious to know if anyone else has tried the experiment.
> I wonder what advantages a £9 aramid sling has over a £1 bit of nylon cord for this particular purpose?
I suspect the advantage is exactly what zimpara's asking about (edit: okay, not necessarily what he was asking about, but what we seem to have ended up talking about *g*): having something that can double as a full-strength sling.
Personally, I have one bog-standard cord prusik loop stashed on a screwgate and one as my chalkbag cord. But if you're going to be able to make use of the 30cm sling, seems like it could be a decent option.
And if you only very rarely need to use a prusik loop, I think it's sometimes easy for it to end up at the bottom of your bag (unless you're paranoid/conscientous about always carrying it).
Which is not where you want it to be when you suddenly find you need to ab to retrieve gear -- or worse, have an emergency of some kind requiring abseiling/prusiking/using prusiks to escape the system.
> Interesting. The standard length ones I have would be far too stiff to make effective prusiks.
Actually, I did a bit of experimenting the other day after a self-rescue workshop and (to my surprise) found that my standard one did seem to work, at least as a klemheist for prusiking up -- I don't know if it'd also work as an autobloc. And it may just have been on that particular fuzzy rope, etc.. But I'd be curious to know if anyone else has tried the experiment.
Post edited at 21:07
In reply to slab_happy:
But then if you've used it as a sling - or you've used all your nice skinny dyneema tape alpine draws - then what are you going to do if you suddenly have a pressing need for a prusik loop or two in a hurry? I'd rather pay the two quid, carry the extra 40 grammes, and have two dedicated prusik loops.
But then if you've used it as a sling - or you've used all your nice skinny dyneema tape alpine draws - then what are you going to do if you suddenly have a pressing need for a prusik loop or two in a hurry? I'd rather pay the two quid, carry the extra 40 grammes, and have two dedicated prusik loops.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
I can't think of many scenarios in which I'd be so stuck for something with which to improvise a prusik I'd just have to give up.
Jk
I can't think of many scenarios in which I'd be so stuck for something with which to improvise a prusik I'd just have to give up.
Jk
In reply to jkarran:
You just led a long pitch on which you used all your slings, alpine draws etc. Your second has been struck by rockfall and is hanging on the rope, unresponsive, most of a rope length away. You can't ab because the rope is under load, you're going to have to prusik down. Plus if you're belaying from your harness you'll be wanting a prusik to escape the system.
Is this really a situation in which you want to start cannibalising bits of the now-loaded anchor as your next move?
You just led a long pitch on which you used all your slings, alpine draws etc. Your second has been struck by rockfall and is hanging on the rope, unresponsive, most of a rope length away. You can't ab because the rope is under load, you're going to have to prusik down. Plus if you're belaying from your harness you'll be wanting a prusik to escape the system.
Is this really a situation in which you want to start cannibalising bits of the now-loaded anchor as your next move?
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In reply to AlanLittle:
Cut the rope and let the tide do the dirty work. Then deny all knowledge of climbing that day.
Cut the rope and let the tide do the dirty work. Then deny all knowledge of climbing that day.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Hell - that takes me back to MIA assessment! I had the added twist that they were hanging in space under a roof above the sea.......
> You just led a long pitch on which you used all your slings, alpine draws etc. Your second has been struck by rockfall and is hanging on the rope, unresponsive, most of a rope length away.
Hell - that takes me back to MIA assessment! I had the added twist that they were hanging in space under a roof above the sea.......
In reply to AlanLittle:
It's not a situation I'd want to be in at all but my lack of pre-tied prusik loops wouldn't be high on my list of concerns. At the very least I've got some rope, shoe laces, chalk bag strap and probably a few cam/hex slings in that scenario. Not far below I have more options. I suppose all I'm saying is it's just not a piece of gear I value, plenty of other bits of kit can be pressed into that role in extremis.
jk
> You just led a long pitch on which you used all your slings, alpine draws etc...
> Is this really a situation in which you want to start cannibalising bits of the now-loaded anchor as your next move?
> Is this really a situation in which you want to start cannibalising bits of the now-loaded anchor as your next move?
It's not a situation I'd want to be in at all but my lack of pre-tied prusik loops wouldn't be high on my list of concerns. At the very least I've got some rope, shoe laces, chalk bag strap and probably a few cam/hex slings in that scenario. Not far below I have more options. I suppose all I'm saying is it's just not a piece of gear I value, plenty of other bits of kit can be pressed into that role in extremis.
jk
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In reply to AlanLittle:
It's a no-brainer surely!
> two quid,40 grammes, two dedicated prusik loops.
It's a no-brainer surely!
In reply to jkarran:
So not only are you now in an emergency situation (which makes everything more difficult, as you are moving outside of your normal experience) but now you are going to put into practice techniques which hopefully you have practised (but few have).
And you want to add the additional difficulty of having to do all of your rope rescue with shoe laces and a chalk bag strap? :P
It's not that you _couldn't_ improvise, just that it might take you a while, and a bit of experimentation to work out exactly how many wraps of your shoelace you need, what the best setup is, a good backup for if the shoelace breaks (assuming it even holds your bodyweight)... all while your second is hanging suspended and unconscious with a heavily bleeding head injury.
(incidentally my shoes are velcro so no laces anyway)
Or you can just carry a pair of prusik loops on the rear loop of your harness, which is, after all, a bad place to store anything but I reckon a pair of prusik loops is probably OK. http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/harness_real_estate_the_rear_g...
So not only are you now in an emergency situation (which makes everything more difficult, as you are moving outside of your normal experience) but now you are going to put into practice techniques which hopefully you have practised (but few have).
And you want to add the additional difficulty of having to do all of your rope rescue with shoe laces and a chalk bag strap? :P
It's not that you _couldn't_ improvise, just that it might take you a while, and a bit of experimentation to work out exactly how many wraps of your shoelace you need, what the best setup is, a good backup for if the shoelace breaks (assuming it even holds your bodyweight)... all while your second is hanging suspended and unconscious with a heavily bleeding head injury.
(incidentally my shoes are velcro so no laces anyway)
Or you can just carry a pair of prusik loops on the rear loop of your harness, which is, after all, a bad place to store anything but I reckon a pair of prusik loops is probably OK. http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/harness_real_estate_the_rear_g...
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
I'm comfortable with the choices I make and my ability to solve a wide range of problems. If you're comfortable with your choices that's cool, I'm not judging them or you. They don't have to be the same choices to be equally valid and reasonable given the different situations we each experience.
Edit: Perhaps those disliking my previous post would be kind enough to explain what it is they dislike. I was asked a question which I answered. You may not like the tone of my answer. You may not like the content of my answer but without a discussion, who knows...
jk
I'm comfortable with the choices I make and my ability to solve a wide range of problems. If you're comfortable with your choices that's cool, I'm not judging them or you. They don't have to be the same choices to be equally valid and reasonable given the different situations we each experience.
Edit: Perhaps those disliking my previous post would be kind enough to explain what it is they dislike. I was asked a question which I answered. You may not like the tone of my answer. You may not like the content of my answer but without a discussion, who knows...
jk
Post edited at 13:27
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In reply to AlanLittle:
In that situation, though, I could easily end up needing more than two prusik loops ...
Personally, I plan to keep on carrying my two bits of cord, but I think it's helpful to know what other bits of my rack can be used as prusiks if needed.
In that situation, though, I could easily end up needing more than two prusik loops ...
Personally, I plan to keep on carrying my two bits of cord, but I think it's helpful to know what other bits of my rack can be used as prusiks if needed.
In reply to jkarran:
I still don't understand who dislikes most things.
I asked for a picture of peoples rack and got disliked out the door.
Hey ho, never mind
I still don't understand who dislikes most things.
I asked for a picture of peoples rack and got disliked out the door.
Hey ho, never mind
In reply to jkarran:
Your whining about dislikes - I just couldn't resist going back up to click the button so you got an extra one... oh what a puerile mind
> Edit: Perhaps those disliking my previous post would be kind enough to explain what it is they dislike.
Your whining about dislikes - I just couldn't resist going back up to click the button so you got an extra one... oh what a puerile mind
Post edited at 14:14
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In reply to petellis:
Just baffled in this instance. I'm well enough used to them to have got past the whining stage
jk
> Your whining about dislikes - I just couldn't resist going back up to click the button so you got an extra one... oh what a puerile mind
Just baffled in this instance. I'm well enough used to them to have got past the whining stage
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
I seem to remember you dealing with a situation along the lines of what AlanLittle describes with no problem whatsoever back in about 2002 when I couldn't get up amen corner....
> Just baffled in this instance. I'm well enough used to them to have got past the whining stage
I seem to remember you dealing with a situation along the lines of what AlanLittle describes with no problem whatsoever back in about 2002 when I couldn't get up amen corner....
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