UKC

How do you redpoint a route? Sport or trad.

Frig it first with a clipstick, top rope it first if thats possible? Feel free to share your tips, querky or widely used...

Cheers

In reply to Oogachooga:

What kind of route? The tactics are dictated by terrain and circumstance as much as personal preference.

My preference if to stick clip the first 2 or 3 bolts then put the clips in bolt to bolt as a learning exercise and often as part of the warm up. Subsequent working goes involve pulling the rope down to 2nd or 3rd clip. This works for steep and diagonal lines, it also means you don't sag/swing away from moves you're working on rope stretch.

Proper attempts start when I've got it down to 2 or 3 links and the crux done as part of one of them.

If the line were short and straight up a top rope of one sort or another would work as well, at least until I had to figure out the clips.
jk

In reply to Oogachooga:

Sport climbing, i'll tend to lead it from the floor every time, perhaps with first bolt clipped if that's what I intend to do on the redpoint for safety reasons, but even that will have been clipped and downclimbed as I don't own a clip stick.
I'll make a push from the floor to a high point each time, then work any problematic moves bolt to bolt, working my way up the wall.
It seems like a waste of good practice (or even training) to bolt-to-bolt or clipstick through easier ground.

I've heard that working a route top down is more effective, so you find the point that you can reach the top from clean, then work the moves lower and lower down the route until you can do it from the ground. In theory this means that on redpoint, the higher you climb, the more practiced and comfortable the route should feel. In reality it just involves a bit more logistics and seems a waste of time for something that you will likely tick in say, less than 5 attempts.

I've never seiged a route beyond about 10-15 attempts and pushing from the floor has worked ok for me so far.

In reply to Oogachooga:



I think it depends on how hard the route is for you - how many grades above your normal onsight capabilities it is. One end of the spectrum of possibility is the clean onsight; then beta flash; then the short redpoint where you just have a couple of goes on the lead, or maybe toprope it once or twice first. However, it may be that, realistically, the only way you're ever going to get up it is by having everything absolutely wired - every clip position, every little marginal foothold/smear - in which case you'll probably have to employ the juggernaut of the full-on redpointing process. Find a patient belayer (with a Gri Gri), get the rope up and the draws in with the minimum possible effort (dogging/clipstick), work the route in small sections, consider working it top down, link sections into longer sections, rehearse clips, etc, etc. The process is well-described by Neil Gresham in his training video.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Good article by Ethan Walker here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7273

In reply to Oogachooga:

I should add that I've done relatively little of that full-on redpointing myself, so almost certainly never got near my sport grade potential. I get a lot of pleasure out of climbing routes more or less in my comfort zone, or harder ones which I still have a decent chance of onsighting, and there isn't much time left over for working hard stuff, so I only do it sporadically - which is fine by me. Different strokes, I suppose.

In reply to jkarran:


None in particular. Just after some ideas on how different people work routes.

Its even been suggested to me recently to try your hardest redpoints in the winter. Warming yourself up slowly on the route, practicing moves and link ups until you feel warmed up and ready for a burn.

This was after a conversation about winter climbing trips. When a day of climbing easy routes turns to a day of getting spanked by easy routes because your fingers are so cold. It was suggested to spend a day working one hard route instead. Better for progress and for ego!

In reply to bpmclimb:


Lets talk about those climbs that would take more than 5 attempt either by lead or top rope work then.

In reply to Oogachooga:

for real at one's limit stuff a clipstick is pretty essential. Allows one to get past stopper sections rather than getting closed down or exhausted thrashing about on the same bit. I tend to try out the stopper bits but then come back to them later rather than expect to sort out everything on attempt one.

Always remember to practise the easier bits too - that undroppable top section can suddenly seem extremely droppable when boxed out your mind, and you might need a different way of doing the easier moves when tired.

Don't just assume the clips are in the best position for you. Frequiently a desparate clip can be turned into an easy one by extending it.

If it might be a while till you can get back on the route, write it down. All of it - every hand and foot. Use spare bits of time to close your eyes and mentally work through the sequence and climb the climb. If the route is extremely long this won't be possible, but I certainly knew every hand and most feet on a recent 35m route I was trying.

When going for a serious redpoint burn, leave sufficient time to rest. If it's a reasonably physical route I'd be leaving at least an hour between attempts. I set the timer on my phone and won't start until the rest is up.

Play the odds. Is it humid in the day? Wait for the evening. Will the crag come round into shade? Wait for it to do so.

And for a true at limit redpoint, your mind needs to be virtually empty. The only thing going through it is the flow of the moves - no throughts or success or failure, no thoughts of 'oh shit I'm just getting to that horrid move', just total flow.

All of which is of course utterly & completely different from onsighting or redpoint lite! Enjoy.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Depends really on lots of things, eg. how many other folk are going to be working the route on that day, how long it is, how close to your limit it is. There's a good section in 'Self Coached Climber' on redpoint tactics, from memory they recommended working such RP routes from the top down so you're totally fresh when working what will become the last few moves on your RP attempt. Also remember the RP crux may not be the same as the route's technical crux. As others have said, it's also good to lead bolt-to-bolt it so you can work out where you'l be clipping from and where you might skip a clip.

In reply to hms:

+1 to pretty much all of that. For my "proper" RP projects, there are usually sections that are pretty much "there be dragons" for at least 3-4 sessions - cannot do the moves even in isolation. For that kind of difficulty, clip-sticking is the only sensible way to access the rest and work the hard bits without spending entire sessions falling and hauling.

Using these sort of tactics then, what would be a good rule of thumb for grade difference with a hard redpoint project?

I have read between a full number grade to two from onsite. What have you found to work?

In reply to Oogachooga:
Two full number grades? Are you sure about that? So if you're onsighting 7a you should be RP'ing 9a? Do you mean letter grades by any chance?

You could pick a route a full number grade over your onsight grade, learn the moves, train accordingly, and you could quite conceivably achieve it, but it might take a while.

Didn't Malcolm Smith train for Hubble on his home wall and jump his redpoint grade from something like 7c to 8c+?

I'd start at 2 letter grades above onsight grade and see how you get on.

In reply to Oogachooga:


Trad obviously you start by abseiling the line. I guess the simple approach is to just climb back up on shunt, spending time figuring out sections that you can't just climb through first time. When to check out gear placements probably depends on the nature of the route - if it's obvious you'll get stuff then perhaps even wait til it's linked, while if it's doubtful what you'll get then you'd look pretty quickly as something with no/crap gear can quickly put you off...

In reply to Dandan:


Even if the chap means YDS grades, jumping from 11a to 13a is a massive leap!


Typically, i reckon on:
OS grade + 4 = Proper project (10-15 days or more), for me, that's be Fish Eye (8c) vs. OS'ing Euro 8a's
OS grade + 3 = RP in a week long trip if you get lucky with conditions and it suits you, e.g. Aspid (8b+)
OS grade + 2 = RP in a few sessions
OS grade +1 = RP in a few goes, e.g. Euro 8a+'s
OS grade = Generally 2nd go if you cocked up the OS


I think Malc had already done Well Dunne Finish (8b) the year before Hubble?

In reply to Oogachooga:


Generally accepted opinion is 4 grades improvement on the rp. So if you can solidly onsight 7a, you should be able to redpoint 7c.

In reply to Fraser:

For me, one of the biggest determiners for the difference between my on-sight and RP grade is location / style.

I stand a decent change of on-sighting 7a to 7a+ on the compact, relatively low angle limestone of the Peak / Yorkshire. Anything 7b upwards more often requires at least a second go (unless I am lucky with route reading). 7c is feasible for a single day project (maybe first go the next session). 8a and 8a+ in the UK require anything from a 3-4 session skirmish to the Trojan War.

My experience of routes on steep and sunny Med limestone is that they have a far greater likelihood of being on-sightable. Less tricky / blind sequences - more a matter of pure athleticism. The beta tends to be "hurl yourself upwards between the chalkiest holds". Last holiday I had (St Leger) I did 8a in a day and got a few 7c+s second go (the first spent dogging up to put the clips in). In Chulilla the year before, I on-sighted multiple 7c+s - as they were long stamina plods with no really tricky moves - if you could recover on jugs (and likely pretty softy graded).

In reply to Dandan:


Unless he means trad grades, which in certain certain circumstances shouldn't be too unrealistic.

In reply to Oogachooga:

It's a good question. Me and my partner come from 25+ years of trad so falling off is still an issue. We've tended to clip the whole thing and then top rope to death until we go for a redpoint, but I think most sport climbers will say it's best to work from the bottom and take the falls, as John Arran implies. I guess you get used to falling but that point hasn't arrived yet...

Anyone got any tips on staying calm for the RP? I have a project right now which I know I can climb all the moves on, but the anticipation is getting a bit much and ruined a recent attempt.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Yo Rob.
Well we're gonna have to try these suggestions. I'm still convinced the "clip the next bolt and try the moves", even on a tight rope, so I can find the sequence without pumping out, works.
Chris

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

Good point(s). I think if you're on something that mimics what you train on (presumably that's why you're training on it!) then there's more likelihood of success. I'm much more likely to succeed on long crux-less stamina-fests than short steep bouldery routes. Chulilla also suited me although when I was there I was a bit below my peak form to take full advantage.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Visualise climbing the full route before you get on it, not just a quick peek and say 'yeah, I can do it this time'. Visualise each move individually. Don't expect to or 'over-want' to do the route. Just focus on making the moves you've practised, nothing more. Execute each move perfectly and don't get ahead of yourself when you near the top. Keep your breathing deep and regular.

Memo to self: must remember to do all those things myself next time!

In reply to Oogachooga:

Lots of sound advice already, to which I would add:

Breathe. I get over-tense on redpoints, especially short powerful routes, and forget to breathe. Consciously get your breathing back under control at rest points. If there are any.

Feet! I've blown redpoints twice recently that I thought should be in the bag, because I had a completely memorised hand sequence but cocked up a foot placement. Pay as much attention to learning and memorising the footholds as the handholds.

When you're working a route bolt to bolt, make sure you're really doing all the moves. When you take there's a tendency to pull up tight to the bolt, and then resume climbing from there. Voila, you just missed out a move, and then you won't know what to do when you try to link through that section. Get your partner to lower you a bit before you resume climbing.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

Thats a fair point. Knowing the rock helps and picking routes that work to your style.

Also, I cant help but wonder if some climbers could operate a much higher redpoint grade. Personally I am a lot more tense on an onsite than a redpoint. The unknown can put me off now and again (falls, holds ect...). Once on a redpoint I find that a lot of insecurity about falls and 'giving it all' goes away.

Lots of things to try out on this thread. Thanks for the ideas!

In reply to cwarby:

Too right Chris. We're trying to embrace the tactics this year, see where it goes.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

A couple of trad routes recently we have lead on pre placed gear after top roping. Then go for a lead if it looks like it will go. May not be a game to everyones taste though.

In reply to Oogachooga:

The art of redpointing is really the art of remembering. Work out how to do the moves and then remember them for the redpoint.

On an easier project you might only need to remember the hand sequence of the crux. If it's a bit harder for you'll probably need the foot moves too. Harder still and knowing the moves into the crux will help by arriving at the crux fresher. On something near your physical limit, typically 3 -4 grades above your onsight, you'll probably want to know all the moves, where to clip from, all the foot placements, subtleties of body position, tempo, where you can get the slightest rest, where to chalk up etc.

Remembering moves can be quite hard at first, especially if you've done mostly onsighting before. Going over sequences in your head can help. Writing them down can help too or even making a 'move topo'.

Once you think you know enough to possibly do the route you can start having redpoint goes. If you fall, take a hang, analyze why you fell, and maybe rework where you fell or any other bits you think you could do better and try again.

Another part of the difficulty is knowing how much or how little to work a route. The more you work it the more tired you'll be for redpointing so you want to practice it just enough, but not too much. I don't think there's any simple formula for that. The more you do the more experienced you'll become.

On routes near your physical limit, redpointing becomes really interesting. When you know every move inside out and you're still failing you have to figure small subtle differences and things you can do better. And executing a whole route perfectly is not easy, there are so many small mistakes you can make. It becomes a real mental challenge.

In reply to stp:

Where do you draw the line between mentality and physicality?

In reply to stp:


It surprised me when I started deliberately redpointing routes* how few decent goes you get in a day, and how carefully you have to budget those goes.

It's a really fine line between learning enough and not burning yourself out for the day or the trip, especially if you're trying a quick mini-project somewhere you don't have a chance to get to that often, .

* as opposed to just having another go on something I hadn't quite managed to onsight.

In reply to zimpara:

I think the closer something is to your physical limit the harder it becomes mentally. Even in a single go if something is really hard physically then you have to dig deeper mentally to really push yourself to your limit - just like there's a mental component to say, powerlifting. And the slightest error is more likely to result in failure so you have to be totally focused too.

In reply to Oogachooga:


Quite a common approach other than the pre-placed gear, but fair dos. With regards to that I usually think hard to place gear is part of the challenge of a route so it's not something I would do (pre-placing), while if easy to place then makes no difference so might as well do it then also. But each to their own. If you do decide to place on lead you can practice this while doing links to make sure you get fiddly stuff in right (check while removing on way back down each time) and that you've taken into account the extra time it might take on lead before getting on the lead.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I'd very seldom indulge in pre-placed gear on trad, but what I might well do on a hard trad pitch (assuming it's not an onsight lead) is find out exactly which pieces I'll need, so I don't have to carry my whole rack up.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Definitely, a huge weight saving. Also rack them in order, quickdraws attached, on the right/left side of the harness depending on which hand you're placing each bit with.

In reply to Oogachooga:
Further to the above, I've just come back from Malham. The previous session, I had gassed-out on RP, trying to clip the belay of my project. Haunted by thoughts of "what if" and "marginal gains", today I made myself wait for almost 3 hrs after another near miss during the morning. Got back on, fully rested, with the rock now cooling in the shade, and did the deed (but only just).

Maybe that lengthy hiatus was unnecessary (though chatting and doing a crossword is not wasted time imho). But, even if I had failed again; at least I would have known I had done everything reasonably possible. No regrets that days of recuperation plus a session had been thrown away through an inability to wait a bit longer.

So, my take home lesson. For short-term gain, a more painless means of upping your RP limit than all that "4x4s" and ancap/aerocap stuff is to arrive at the crag well rested (at least 2 full days), take a book / cryptic crossword, and have a similarly patient partner.

When you have 2-3 good goes at most in a session, don't waste skin and energy setting off when not fully rested and when better conditions might develop

In reply to Oogachooga:

To advance at the game as quick as poss, have fun and actually get some routes ticked, it seems to me, you need a mix. OS +4 is bouldering for me. So an hour maybe. Plus OS+2 or 3, as much quicker projects. Do till quality going. Then onsight one or two you know. Or something like that. Thoughts?

In reply to ian caton:


My own are: I didn't understand what you were saying there!

In reply to Oogachooga:

Don't. Unless it's cutting edge, a new route with no info, or a first repeat with little info. Otherwise you're a complete choad and it's a complete waste of a trad climb. Instead either accept you can't do it, and/or work hard to get good enough to do it. There are so many good trad onsights without resorting to headpointing, and so many ways to improve your climbing and tactics so there's no need for it.

As for sport - learn it well, refine your sequences, refine your clipping, make sure you memorise the sequence but stay open to improvement, work out what you need to train / improve, take heed of conditions and any other factors that affect your performance.

HTH.

In reply to Fiend:


is redpointing trad an acceptable way to get good enough to onsite other trad?