UKC

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I'm mainly replying as I'm interested to know what others think. But that is a mess

Is twisted the right term. I think it's a rotation about the bolt

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I can explain it but these things sound very complex when written and it was quite a simple movement.

Bulging start, bolt clipped on the lip of the bulge. Leader climbs up and reaches up left for a good hold but reaches under the rope coming down from the bolt (possibly because I was belaying a bit far out although it didn't feel it).

Leader pulls up which means the rope is now resting on his left shoulder but he has moved up so that his shoulder is above the bolt.

Leader can't let go of the good hold so grabs the rope on his left shoulder with his right hand and flips it over his head, then reaches up right for the next hold. This felt like it put the rope in the correct position but the damage had been done by lifting the rope over his head to put a twist in the system.

The mistake was to reach under the rope initially, which the belayer (me) could have helped with by keeping the rope out of the way.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I often think a lower, directional bolt, would be useful in such situations, to keep the rope close to the rock. Some crags, like Kilnsey, are a nightmare in that respect. They seem to love a really high first bolts there for some reason. But the fact that most people just stick clip them these days anyway makes the whole thing a bit of a charade.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Saw something similar in Spain. A guy having a major shake hooked the first draw with his foot. This inverted the crab in the bolt. As he yanked at the rope to clip the second bolt quickly before he fell off the dogbone slid down the crab gate and unclipped itself. Just as he got the rope in the second bolt and fell off. Scary to watch!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

One of my partners has always very sensibly had a quickdraw made up with screwgates on it for exactly that first bolt scenario you mention. I've not got a QD made with these http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/pure-slider-slate.html I haven't tried but you might well be able to clip a bolt with a clip stick with those Slider krabs which you can't with a screwgate.

I've never had anything happen to me, but mates have had QDs like that open in fall, in other cases QDs somehow twist off bolts when traversing away from them etc etc. so I think I'm quite conscious of the strange things that can happen when clipping bolts and try to think about how the rope will run.

In reply to TobyA:

You beat me to it I also sometimes climb with a friend who uses a similar "screwgate" method which I think I should adopt.

Direction of travel is very important to think about in relationship to the gate direction on quick draws in general. There is a good video where Ben Bransby explains this very well.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I've seen climbers unclip there rope when leading as they do not consider "direction of travel" in relationship to the gate orientation. Ben Bransby explains in well in this video at 05:20:

vimeo.com/100787481

(You need to watch it on Vimeo)

In reply to johncook:
a friend experienced the same recently with the dogbone rotating round onto the gate. It appears that when he lobbed off the dogbone slipped off the gate as the single binder was left attached to the bolt and the rest was attached to the rope. Fortunately he was several bolts up. Interestingly and a long time in the past we usually clipped the first bolt with a screw gate but are now out of the habit. Maybe time to change back.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax: I have a genuine question. On quickdraws you have a rope and a bolt end, with the dogbone on the rope end being tight on the karabiner. Is there a reason it's not tight at the bolt end as it would surely stop a lot of these incidents.

I have thin slings on my quickdraws (as I'm too tight ot have an explicit sport set) - this is no way limited to those with thick draws.

In reply to wbo:

Tight on the karabiners both ends you increase the chance of unclipping the top one from the bolt or lifting mobile protection out.

In reply to wbo:


The articulation of the top (bolt-clipping) krab is important for several reasons. One reason is that it makes the bolt easier to clip, another is that articulation is actually a good thing to avoid some of these problems caused by twisting about bolts.

In the photo I took, imagine that the bolt krab was the other way up (which would have been the case if it had been fixed at both ends). Then the gate would have been passing through the bolt and a fall would have resulted in the whole quickdraw unclipping from the bolt. This is actually more common when you do the rope twist trick than what we got the other day.

There is also a school of thought which suggests that thin extenders are better to avoid this sort of thing happening. In this case a thin extender would have absorbed all the twist itself and the bolt would probably have remained properly clipped. There are other benefits of fat extenders though for sport climbing which is why most people use them.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax and JimTitt: Thanks for the answers and explanations. I guess there is no perfect solution to all problems.

I must say that I don't buy that a thin tape makes for a floppy tape that can absorb twist. I use a mixture of Petzl ange's, Wild country nitro's and BD somethings , and the thin tapes are rather rigid, with a lot of sewing in a small space causing that. And yes, I am very aware they are not the ideal sports draw, but I'm only a simple man who uses one set of draws for everything.

##Hope you are working hard on the Cham rockfax ##

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Something similar happened to me. Whether I back-clipped or not I don't remember, but I went past first bolt and got into trouble, reversed the move, and called out "take" and he did! I hit the ground with one hell of a thump. Big compression fracture. Thank goodness for Zapain. I think the Q/D was still swinging when breath returned to body, but what actually happened I don't know. I can't think of many occasions when I've had difficulties so close to the first bolt

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Single screwgate on any bolt where you would rather concentrate on the climbing than worry about any issues with the rope?


Chris

In reply to TobyA:

Excuse my stupid question but do they have a screwgate on either end of the qd ?

In reply to Christheclimber:

several years ago I changed the way my quickdraws are set up as I consider it safer in general to have the gates facing the same direction. I do sometimes sport climb but then also occasionally clip pegs, but even with other gear it's marginally superior IMO.

In reply to lummox:

Yes. Having two avoids twisting dangers that you could get with just one screwgate directly onto the bolt.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Clipsticking both the first and second bolt (or clipping the second only, then clipping the first bolt in as you go past - obviously on the correct bit of rope) will also help alleviate this kind of issue, depending on the relative heights of the first and second bolt. I would never clip the second bolt only and leave the first bolt unclipped. Quite often you can also clip the third (or higher) bolt...

In reply to TobyA:

I clip two quickdraws opposed (one with gates facing left another with gates facing right).

In reply to andrewmcleod:

At what point does it become top-roping?

In reply to johncook:


Fourth bolt.

In reply to PMG:

Yes, done that as well, normally when scared!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I've recently started to carry a QD with an Edelrid slider on one end and a lightweight Grivel screwgate on the other. I intended to use it for situations where I am unsure about which direction I will be climbing but as often as not I end up using it as a lower off.

Al

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Thanks for the reminder, it's worth keeping an eye out for that problem.

I normally use trad style quickdraws (mainly as I don't do that much sport), with thin long slings on wiregates. I suspect it would be much less likely with a long thin sling as the sling will just twist but won't ride up the draw.

In reply to TobyA:

I have an alpine draw with 2 screwgates for that scenario, but for a bulging star with the first bolt at the lip I would probably use a single screwgate clipped directly into the bolt hanger. Also depends on how high up the first and second bolts are.

CB

The first bolt is obviously important in this, and the suggestions for a more solid first quickdraw are good ones, but it isn't just about the first bolt (contradicting my own thread title). This sort of twisting can happen on any bolt, especially ones on the lip of roofs where the moves can be quite contorted. In those circumstances, the belayer can't help and a clattering fall could result if it unclipped. In this case a screwgate krab is impractical since it may be hard to clip in the first place. Good rope work and a slightly longer draw are probably the best bet.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Just wondering why so many people tend to use short draws for Sports climbs? I don't find a massive downside using something around 15-18cm and plenty of upside?

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Hi Alan, I've also seen it on a belay, after a rope has been pulled on a similar type of staple. The person clipped in, then want for a 20 footer, as it all came free from the belay.

I use a DMM roller screw gate at the rope end with a small screw gate for the first QD on the first bolt on every route.
Ian

In reply to springfall2008:
I use chunky short draws because:

a) They are easier to place.
b) Give you a few more centimetres of reach when clipping.
c) It's easier to clip the rope than having 18 cms of floppy sling moving about.
d) Are better for grabbing if you need to.
e) Look more reassuring when pushing at your limit.
f) Wandering lines/overhangs are less of an issue and in any case I carry 2 longer QD's as well as a sling draw and always found this adequate.

What are your "upsides" to longer slings on sport.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Use a screwgate.Use a normal quickdraw if the screwgate is at the back of your harness,then clip the quickdraw into the bolt as well.A screwgate has a higher breaking strain,in general,though it may increase your rope drag.Decisions,decisions...

In reply to paul mitchell:

Why are you telling me. I've already said I use a screwgate ?

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


- They don't suffer from the above twisting problem as much (if at all).
- Less rope drag (quite important on some longer routes around here)
- Easier for the second climber to reach (good if the best climber leads first)
- You can use them for both sport and trad

In reply to GridNorth:



Yeah - and I said it before either of you!

Chris

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


That is only half a mistake. The other half, making for one actual mistake, was to drop the rope over the head. Had the leader pushed the rope off his shoulder to the left, all would have been well.

In reply to rgold:

Ah but that was the problem. He couldn't take his left hand off the rock since all his weight was on it, and couldn't move up since the rope was dragging him down, and couldn't move down easily since the move up had been a bit dynamic. The rope had to be moved, and there was only one way to flip it.

Alan

The videos pointed to in lessons 17 and 18 of my article

http://www.coldmountainkit.com/knowledge/articles/419-65-things-to-do-to-st...

make for good reminders of what can happen will happen. Carabiners regularly snap or unclip from the rope or the piece. The failure rate in terms of per fall is very low, or there would be bodies at the base of most cliffs, but across the whole population it seems to keep on happening. At a guess, most are not reported. The one on leaning tower where one carabiner unclips and two snap, kind or indicates the probabilities are far from zero.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Weird things happen.
The mistake was not sorting it before climbing on...

how about an krab with captive internal gate (like an inverted BD gridlock)
which captures the bolt and prevents twisting.

Be a bugger to strip though...

In reply to lithos:




True, I must admit I don't favour complexity to sort out simple issues, because they are often flawed in themselves. I don't know what's wrong with what you suggested, and it would be hard to find out until something does go wrong.

In reply to lithos:
Always these wee beasties

www.alpinist.com/doc/web08s/rb-pd-kong-frog

Also quite a few topics on them on UKC