/ Broad Stand - grade dispute

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Michael Hood - on 03 Jun 2016
Went up Broad Stand (D) yesterday; solo, dry, no rope or tat on it. Found it really quite tricky and no way D.

If you were leading then there's good gear but I reckon it's worth VD 4a. The move is certainly harder than many other 4as I've done.
malk - on 03 Jun 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

hilltalk? ;)
3
Michael Hood - on 03 Jun 2016
In reply to malk: Ha, ha.

It is a real climb it's just that it's done more by walkers (or by climbers when walking).

Descending, which seems to account for a lot of the logbook entries, is pretty easy compared with going up, there's quite often a rope there and it's much worse in the wet.
Offwidth - on 03 Jun 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Awkard 3c moves up the short corner, perfectly safe ...(hard) Diff onsight with a rope; scary solo if damp. The wall climb just left is harder but may suit delicate style climbers more. Having said that VD might get the message over better as there have been too many nasty accidents (if you bounce on the slab it can pitch the climber over the edge and down to the gully).
Jim 1003 - on 04 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I reckon it's harder than that, and I 've probably done it a hundred times.
Phizzers - on 10 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I agree that the last step on Broad Stand should be graded VD, or harder. Steve Scott ( FRCC editor ) simply added an
ungradeable grade for the Scafell guide, which I thought was a cop-out of the subject.
The move involves an awkward pull on a small edge whilst pulling over the step - it would be the crux on a VD route, even harder in the wet, which it usually is. It's not a simple short scramble, it's a serious place.
Gordon Stainforth - on 10 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I agree with you, and Jim. It's a very hard mantelshelf, at least 4b (though v hard to grade) and, unroped, very serious. Much easier in reverse in fact, you scarcely notice it if you're in sticky boots and have been climbing on Scafell Crag.
Cusco - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

It's a good topic to bring up and I agree with your comments.

A friend and I backed off it years ago on the way up without ropes, with big boots and sacks on a walk. I thought it was nails for a scramble and in an exposed and dangerous location with slabs leading down from it. Definitely climbing not a mere scramble.

There again, I'm not great scrambling dangerous stuff in exposed places in big boots and a sack. Climbing with ropes seems so much safer.

wercat on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:
on the other hand there is a much easier but more exposed step out on the left - rather airy and you definitely would be a gonner if you failed - I've done soloed both and I'm a poor climber so I wonder if this just shows that scrambling grades do not link up with climbing grades. Perhaps it should have a "move of Alpine III" label on it


Similarly I've soloed the Inn Pinn quite a few times and found very nervous and probably much better rock climbers on it, people who've told me they were happy climbing HVS which would be my nemesys
Post edited at 08:20
phizz4 - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

If this was anywhere else in the world it would have a chain on it. But then we get into the argument that fixed aids here are the thin end of the wedge, it will encourage incompetent people to go onto Broad Stand etc etc. It would be interesting to know what the rescue teams that have BS on their patch think of the situation.
Trangia - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to malk:

> hilltalk? ;)

I agree. Hopefully the mods will move it, where it will be much more helpful to those most likely to be doing it.
1
Steve Crowe - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

You make a good point. I wonder how many climbers descending off after an multi pitch extreme hesitate on the bad step while descending?
Bandage - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to phizz4:

Wasdale Mountain Rescue have a log of their call outs..

http://www.wmrt.org.uk/advice/accident-black-spots/scafell-broad-stand/

Offwidth - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Steve Crowe:

I'd always hesitate on graded descents if I've climbed multi-pitch extremes even if the descent was dry and less exposed. From stuff like the YOSAR stats a lot of accidents occur with experienced climbers when they stop focusing properly so I don't. My grade above was for dry conditions.
alan moore - on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Steve Crowe:

I' ll scramble down just about anything but got the rope out to slither down the tricky bit. Think I was still in awe from having to use aid and combined tactics to get up it in the rain. When I soloed Botterill's Slab I walked all the way back down round Foxes Tarn to be on the safe side....
Goucho on 11 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Went up Broad Stand (D) yesterday; solo, dry, no rope or tat on it. Found it really quite tricky and no way D.

> If you were leading then there's good gear but I reckon it's worth VD 4a. The move is certainly harder than many other 4as I've done.

I've personally never understood what all the fuss is about - first time I did it both up and down I was 12, it was wet and I was wearing old Hawkins Fellmasters. I've since done it dozens of times in all conditions.

However, bearing in mind the average ability of the average person doing it most of the time, and the traffic it gets (and the accidents), I can actually see the logic of possibly looking at putting fixed chains and a cable on it - as opposed to a fixed rope, which will degrade and become dangerous unless it's replaced on a regular basis.

Considering the erosion surrounding it, I don't think there's necessarily a strong argument against it on aesthetic grounds?

It works well in the alps - the number of ascents of the Hornli on the Matterhorn would probably drop by 90% if they removed the fixed gear - so why not consider it for things like Broad Strand?

Just a though?
4
Jimmy D - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> the number of ascents of the Hornli on the Matterhorn would probably drop by 90% if they removed the fixed gear
>

That would be cool
Trangia - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Goucho:

>
> However, bearing in mind the average ability of the average person doing it most of the time, and the traffic it gets (and the accidents), I can actually see the logic of possibly looking at putting fixed chains and a cable on it - as opposed to a fixed rope, which will degrade and become dangerous unless it's replaced on a regular basis.

> Considering the erosion surrounding it, I don't think there's necessarily a strong argument against it on aesthetic grounds?

> It works well in the alps - the number of ascents of the Hornli on the Matterhorn would probably drop by 90% if they removed the fixed gear - so why not consider it for things like Broad Strand?



> Just a though?



Stop thinking!

Thin end of a massive troll wedge.

Have look back at threads relating to Jacks Rake and the descent route from Idwal Slabs..........



GrahamD - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Is the climbing grade particularly relevant ? surely most of the people who scramble up and down Broadstand won't have seen a climbing guide in their life !
Jeremy Ashcroft - on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to phizz4:

> If this was anywhere else in the world it would have a chain on it. But then we get into the argument that fixed aids here are the thin end of the wedge, it will encourage incompetent people to go onto Broad Stand etc etc. It would be interesting to know what the rescue teams that have BS on their patch think of the situation.

It was bolted, pegged and roped a few years ago. All the gear was immediately removed by the Wasdale MRT team leader - which should give you an idea of what the local MR think!

It's no great hardship by passing Broad Stand via either Foxes Tarn or Lord's Rake, having to make a bit of a detour is all part of the game and makes Scafell quite a special place?

petegunn on 12 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Ive been up and down multiple times in various conditions and it always causes me to stop and think.
My latest ascent was earlier this year whilst doing the Bob Graham round, it was a bit damp and as i threw my leg over the mantelshelf I got cramp in my thigh, and ended up having to sort of roll onto the ledge. Its not just the walkers that can get into trouble!
Bulls Crack - on 13 Oct 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

E0 anyone?
johncoxmysteriously - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Steve Crowe:

> You make a good point. I wonder how many climbers descending off after an multi pitch extreme hesitate on the bad step while descending?

Very few, I'd have thought. I've never actually noticed where it is.

jcm
scaredandweak - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I've only ever been up Broad Stand after a few hours running and in muddy trainers, but I can't remember ever thinking there was a hard move - though you most definitely wouldn't want to fall off.
Maybe next time I'll be more worried having read this!
grubus - on 14 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I first did Broad Stand 56 years ago, up and down, in the wet, when I was told it was a mod. The ledges all had deep vegetation-bound soil on them: I'd guess at 35 cm, so the moves up or down were all very short and easy. In recent years I think that, mainly because the soil has all been eroded away, but also because of more polish on the rock, the grade should be V.Diff. This is particularly so because of the high potential for serious injury following a slip.
Generally speaking I am all in favour of "traditional" grades. This route has changed materially and so should not be granted that privilege!
Pero - on 14 Oct 2016
Alan Hinkes didn't find it so easy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hELFYcSMHNI

Re the descent off Scafell, the Wired Lake District Guide says: "... to reach Mickledore by abseil is safest".



airborne - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

It's an oddity really. I've reversed it once, with my Mrs and a friend and his wife, and none of us thought much of it. But a few weekends ago I did it pacing a mate on his BG attempt and it was absolutely desperate, even on a rope. Felt like a completely different proposition.
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Hardonicus - on 15 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Lord's Rake has at least settled down as another option.

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