UKC

Hello all
What should the average pitch time be for two people climbing, for instance, how long should it take to do something like Tennis Shoe on Idwal Slabs or The Cracks on Dinas Mott?

In reply to mrgleb:

Anything from 15 to 90 minutes depending on gibber factor?

In reply to mrgleb:


I can only guess, and my guess is about 30 minutes for one pitch. For a more accurate answer someone needs to watch 50 or more typical climbers do the pitch/es, then calculate the average time taken.

In reply to mrgleb:

A big factor is how efficient your rope work and belay handovers are. I have seen people lose upwards of 20 minutes per pitch in avoidable faffing at belays.

In reply to davidbeynon:

When I did tennis shoe it took us around four hours. It was a nice sunny day and we were having a chilled out climb. I just thought we faffed about a bit. My partner thinks I worry to much about it. I would like to be more efficient without stressing too much and ruining the climb.

In reply to mrgleb:

As a general question, I think this is unanswerable. It is like asking, "how long does it take to drive between cities" without naming any cities.

How long is the pitch? A 50m pitch will take longer than a 10m pitch, most of the time. How hard is the climbing? How complicated/tricky is the gear? How complicated/tricky is the route-finding? Lots of things will affect this.

In reply to mrgleb:
I always work on 45 minutes to an hour per pitch for anything of a reasonable difficulty for me. It's definitely possible to go faster but this average works most of the time for me when planning what may be possible in a given time and allows for the odd gibber, difficult belay or stuck piece of gear.

Edit: I should probably add that I don't include short easy link pitches on my calculations and I tend to run short pitches together.

In reply to mrgleb:

Thanks for the replys. Judging from this I think I am climbing at a reasonable pace.
I guess I worry too much about climbing too slow and holding up other teams behind me.

In reply to mrgleb:

There is special approach that you can develop and hone with years of experience with regards to teams behind you:

F*ck'em.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

After all, they started up the route with someone already on it!

In reply to LakesWinter:

If they're getting a bit close you can always drop some worthless crag-swag (something you don't even know why you're carrying) as a warning.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

There's always a bit of mud or plant material to hand too...

In reply to mrgleb:

However fast you think you should climb, you'll despair if you ever try to meet guidebook time for routes in the Dolomites. The Alpine Club guide seems to allow about 18 mins per pitch on routes which most people will pitch up and not just move together.

Some are even more unachievable, for example, the classic South Face of Tofana di Rozes, an 880m climb described in 22 pitches plus several sections of scrambling gets a guidebook time of 5-6 hours. Allowing for the scrambling that's about 11 to 13 mins per pitch.
These are typically 40m pitches which you need to lead (whilst route finding and placing gear), set up a belay, bring up your second (stripping the gear), reorganise your rack, read the description for the next pitch and decide where to go next and all in under 13 mins, and don't forget you need to keep up that pace for 22 pitches and perhaps fit in a bit of eating and drinking.

Perhaps Uli Steck was consulted on the times? I don't personally know anybody who could come close to meeting those times even climbing with several grades in hand.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Or you could just be polite and let them overtake. If you're going slowly enough to be caught an extra 15 minutes won't kill you - why should a more efficient team have to wait?

Note that I have been in both positions in the situation - if the team I'm in is near its limits we're more likely to be caught, and if so I just let the faster team past. When in the comfort zone (and therefore faster) I would expect the same in return. It's the equivalent of making someone with one item in the supermarket wait for your full trolley to be scanned.

In reply to mrgleb:



If you do want to move more quickly, the solution is easy: video yourself. Either a head cam or camera on the hill opposite. Break the multi pitch climb down into time spent: racking, building belays, moving, how long to place the average piece of protection etc, how long between the leader shouting "safe" and the second arriving, then how long until the leader moves again. Pie chart the results. You will only need to to this once as the results provide a massive learning experience. Then work on removing the faff. With most climbers this will knock 25-50% off the time taken.

In reply to ianstevens:

What are you on about? The Alps or UK trad? 15 mins to let a team pass on a trad route? If you set off up a multi-pitch route and a team in front are slow, that is your problem. You should have been there first, or chosen a different route.

Soloing is different, as you don't have to wait long for someone to pass. I'd happily wait for a soloist to quickly get out of the way.

In reply to Jon Stewart: I think I'd make a soloist wait so that I could listen to their (hopefully good) music. A soloer on the other hand I would usually let through

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Both. It's often quite difficult to see around corners/ledges/bulges etc., and as such hard to see if another team is in front. You'd let someone faster than you go past on a road (well, I would...) so why should it be any different on a climb? It seems reasonable to assume that all teams should be climbing at a similar rate. As I said, if I'm slow I'm probably near/at/over my limit, and neither want the audience of a waiting team nor wish to hold them up whilst I take my time struggling and falling off - so I let them past. It's just nicer all round.

If you can see the team ahead, it's a different scenario as you describe - you are either limiting yourself to their speed (if they are in fact slower than you) or as you say, you should have chosen a different route if you thought you were going to be substantially quicker. If, alternatively, you start up with a team two pitches ahead that seems perfectly reasonable - if the slower team is caught in this scenario, they should let the faster team past, basically for the reasons mentioned above. If they're just slow through faff - then that is the most frustrating thing ever, and in the alps, potentially dangerous. Let the quicker team past and its better for everybody.

In reply to mrgleb: 4 hours for Tennis Shoe does seem a bit long but:
- Were conditions good? - if it was wet then it will take longer.
- Was it at your limit? - in which case fair enough.
- Were you in a rush or had to be home before curfew? - if not then who cares, enjoy yourself.
- Were you holding people up? - in which case the previous posts argue various options.
- Was this training for long routes in the alps? - if yes then take a bivi bag, stove, extra food, etc. with you

In reply to mrgleb:

9.807 m/s^2 in reverse

In reply to mrgleb:

About half as quick as this ...

youtube.com/watch?v=0Z_mhRoqG2E&

In reply to ianstevens:

I don't think I've ever been on a route in the UK and not known who else is already on it. And I like sea cliff traverses that go round corners.

If I was a quick team and I could see a team ahead that were slow (and I've been totally oblivious of them rather than choose a different route), then I'd have to be quite clever and have good knowledge of the route to facilitate successful passing of the slow team, i.e. I'd have to arrive at a spacious belay while the team ahead were faffing (both at belay) and agree that I could set off first. This is going to be hard to coordinate and will certainly involve climbing right up the other team's arse as I need to get to the belay before the leader sets off. Then the team have to wait while I set up a belay, bring up the second, change over and set off, complete the pitch, set up, and get the second going. Then they can set off. If it's a really short easy pitch, this is doable in your mythical 15mins, but in most circs, none of this is possible:

- the timing won't coordinate with getting to the belay before leader sets off
- the belay won't be big enough to accommodate people waiting and passing
- the pitch ahead won't be dead short and easy and you'd be making them wait for much longer. If you're climbing pitches from arriving at one belay to the second being into the next pitch in 15mins (which I find completely implausible), it's so far within your capability and you're hardly placing any gear, why not solo the route (on a quieter day)?

Plus, you always know who's on the route already, so you should never find yourself in this situation in the first place.

The driving analogy is rubbish. I would pull over at a convenient place if someone is driving up my arse for miles and there's nowhere to overtake. I would also think they were a wanker for driving up my arse for miles. But this is very rare - generally there are plenty places to overtake, and pulling over takes literally seconds.

In reply to pec:

Not even Superman could match those times. Insane!

In reply to Michael Hood:


Yes, I'd definitely hang around for a belay performance of a Bach cello suite. Not sure I would be so keen on climbing under them though!

In reply to mrgleb:

Belay faff is usually basic stuff rather than things you need to stress about. Neat ropes are quicker and easier to deal with than untidy ones. If there are jobs that can be done by two people simulaneously then do them etc. Being nice and quick gives you the luxury of time to be chilled out in if that's what you want.

As for the best way to learn, for me it was spending time doing a lot of climbing with a complete fascist. Still not 100% sure the bollocking I got for asymmetrical rope coiling was justified but I have caught myself passing it on once or twice...

You can add me to the list of people who have never managed guidebook time in the dolomites.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

For speed climbing motivation: Teenager drum solo.